Ionizer air cleaners? Good? Useless?

[havocmom]

Give me your testimony. I gotta do something about the stuff in the air that is trying to kill me.

What systems work. Which ones are useless?

Really wanna know.

[Broken_Hero]

1. Good question, coincidence? I was just

thinking the same thing....I'm all ears on this one..

[havocmom]

2. I'm all congested ears...

GOTTA get something to undo the dust. Thinkin of moving to Waterworld.

[Broken_Hero]

3. we get a lot of dust

because of the dirt roads around our house, and people just have to do 50mph when they pass our house...I have thougth about getting one of them, and my father in law swears by them, but he is a total hypochondriac so I take some of his advice with a grain of salt...

[havocmom]

5. LOL Had to look at your profile to see if you lived on my street

Same problem, but I live in a MUCH drier part of the country.

Family in AZ uses them and likes them. A couple people where I live say they like them. But I don't understand the science behind them so :shrug:

[Lex]

4. I saw some at Target tonight and was seriously considering

buying one. They had small tower-shaped ones.

Several brands, Honeywell being one. In the 100 to 150 dollar range.

I passed on buying one since I had't done my homework on how well they work, so this thread is timely.

[elocs]

6. Summer of 2005

I had to take my cat to the University of Wisconsin Veterinary Clinic in Madison and in their lobby they had 3 or 4 of the ionizing towers. I can't remember what brands, but evidently they though they worked well enough to use several of them. There are a bunch on Amazon.com and a few have user reviews:
http://amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_seeall_1/002-8988540-1912041?ie=UTF8&keywords=ionizing%20air%20purifiers&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aionizing%20air%20purifiers%2Ci%3Aelectronics-aps

[havocmom]

8. Maybe I'll pose the question in the science forum tomorrow night

Want to understand how/if they work too. I know people who swear by them but have seen some articles blasting them of late. Something about ozone.

:shrug:

[pitohui]

7. they're all useless

long story hopefully someone else will tell similar

ionizers kill and mine almost killed me

PM to remind me later if you want detail i'm a bit tired

[RevCheesehead]

9. I have several Ionic breeze cleaners.

About a week ago, the one in my office stopped working. And yes, since then, I've been sniffling up a storm because I haven't gotten in repaired yet.

I know many people don't like them, and yeah, there was a report by Consumer Reports that slammed them. But I can attest to the fact that since I got these (the first one 5 years ago), I have been breathing easier, and I'm not being killed by electric bills or the cost of replacement filters.

You can get a decent "like new" reconditioned unit for a fraction of the cost. Go to sharperimage.com and click on clearance.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. My dear havocmom.......

Consumers Union has rated and tested them, and they don't like them one little bit.....

Sorry I don't have a link, but I'm sure you can find their stuff online.

:hi:

[havocmom]

15. Saw that. That's sorta what has me wondering.

I know people who have used them for several years and love them

But, even Dr. Weil has spoken against them.

I gotta get hold of Mr. Science.

[Floogeldy]

11. Isn't that for what nostril hairs are?

Don't trim them to short.

[The_Casual_Observer]

13. Reminded of a Don Martin cartoon where the guy

fashions a mustache out of them. That was a long time ago, but it was impossible to forget.

[Floogeldy]

14. I never thought of that.

Efficient, though. :)

[Orrex]

30. I believe he lamented that "nosehairs are hard to train"

Dawk!

[donco6]

12. I've heard they can produce ozone. Which is bad.

Ozone is the supreme oxidant, which means it causes everything to age and deteriorate faster - including people. I've heard some have antiozone mechanisms now.

[havocmom]

16. Yep, read that. Has me worried. But gotta do SOMETHING

the dust and mold spores are bothering me more every year. Am really having a bad time this year.

A REALLY bad time.

Hey, maybe the Air Force can take some up in extremely high altitude planes and fix that hole up there? :D

[RevCheesehead]

22. The newer ones come with an Ozone guard.... and

they have an attachment available for the older models (which run about $15, I think).

[RebelOne]

17. I have a Sharper Image Ionizer in my living room and it is quite

effective. I am a smoker and have two dogs. It kills the stale smoke smell and dog odor. I also have 3 plug-ins which work quite well. One in the bathroom, one in the kitchen and the other in the living room.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. We have two Sharper Image Quadras (i think that's what they're called)

My son suffers from seasonal mold allergies and he hasn't had to use his nebulizer nearly as much since we got them. The house smells fresh. The only drawback is that the insert is a pain to clean. :ih:

[riona]

19. Sounds like we have

the same ones from Sharper Image. I like them too (except the cleaning). They have done something with the new ones for ozone problems. Don't think there should be a problem with the old ones if they are run on "whisper" or low.

[Burma Jones]

20. sometimes harmful

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs/ozonegen.html#recommendations

[ProfessorGAC]

21. I Have Two

Ours work SUPERBLY. I have a mild form of asthma, and when i keep those things clean, i have no problems at all.

Now, i should mention that we have hot water heat. (Natgas, with a circulating pump.) So, we have no other means of filtering the air, since our room air isn't forced through a filter with a blower.

We have the Ionic Breeze Quadras. One in the basement rec room and the other in the corner of the living room.

I recommend them highly.
GAC

[oneighty]

23. Hey Prof

Do not ionized particles of (anything) have static magnetic properties which can cause them to get 'hung up' say in lung tissue?

Seems I read that someplace along the road.

180

[ProfessorGAC]

24. No

First of all, the ionized particles are mostly the particulate. Remember that the charge density is directly proportionally (by the square of the mass) to the mass of the particle. So, individual molecules of air take on a VERY small charge, while the particular takes on a relatively large almount of charge. They are POSITIVELY charged, so the negative grid adds the electrons back while creating an adhesion to the surface.

The air molecules coming out, being part of an amorphous gas volume, still transfer charge across the negative grid. (Atom to atom, molecule to molecule.) So the outgoing gas is very low in ionic concentration. (This fact is why the small amount of ozone forms. If the grid didn't and the gas couldn't transfer electrons to the entire mass, nearly every thing coming out would be ionized nitrogen and oxygen. The ozone forms when the extra electron comes along to allow the formation of O3.)

Lastly, the charge per unit mass is very small on a gas ion. And, within the respiratory system, the presence of copious amount of surface water causes dissolution which has a FAR greater motive force than does molecular adhesion of an ion. (Particularly one as week as negative nitrogen or negative oxygen.)

Last point: Ions are not very stable in ambient conditions. They want, desperately, to satisfy that partially emptied orbital. So, they will react with other things in the air quite quickly. The odds that it will still exhibit ionic character by the time we get around to brething those molecules in is infinetesimally small. Remember that there is a third of a Trillion Trillion molecules in the average size living room. There are lots and lots of them to breathe in, before a stray ion ends up being one of them!

You might have heard that somewhere down the road, but i would question the chemical knowledge of whomever said that.
The Professor

[havocmom]

25. Thank you so much. I wanted someone grounded in science to

'splain how it worked.

I read one article which complained about 'black wall' from using them. Said the charged dust particles tended to adhere to surfaces, walls, floors, so on. Hells bells! That'd be an improvement from the dust floating in the air and going down my windpipe. I have to vacuum walls and ceilings now anyway, so bad is the dust here.

We have gone to hot water heat also. No more dealing with old dust far down the ducts and in the bottom of the furnace air chamber. That did help, but we live in a rural area, lots of dirt roads and people with nothing better to do than drive in circles. The dust gets VERY bad this time of year when it tends to be even drier than usual. There are soil molds which seem especially nasty here too.

Thanks for the info. Am sure you helped a lot of us out.

And thanks to everybody else who chimed in. Was glad to hear from the
Rev Fromage that newer models have reduced the ozone.

Thanks all. I may breathe easier now. ;)

[ProfessorGAC]

27. On That Ozone Thing

First of all, if you place an ozone detector in front of a Quadra, it barely registers, so the Ozone thing is a bit overstated. Ozone is only toxic in fairly high concentrations, and there isn't enough ozone in the output of the units we have to cause toxicity if one breathed in from directly in front of the unit for the next 5 years, nonstop.

However, the new units merely use a palladium based catalyst, not terribly different from the material used in a catalytic converter on a car. It has the effect of capturing what's called "singlet" oxygen, bascially stealing it off the ozone. The output is then O2, instead of O3. When the singlets that are trapped come into near contact with another singlet, (which occurs by pure probability), an O2 is formed and is released from the catalyst bed.

The catalyst is pretty robust, and since the amount of ozone is very small, the catalyst won't "poison" and will effectively last forever.

One last thought: We had one of our Quadras fail. The wire that attached the grid to the primary appeared to have broken. I didn't need to fix it! They just sent us a new one, and asked that we put the broken one in the box from the replacement, put a prepaid label on it, and ship it back. All within about 4 days! No charge. And they were over a year old at the time. Good customer service.
The Professor

[donco6]

32. Another thing about the ozone.

If it has something to mitigate the ozone, that's good. Ozone is very highly reactive, so any kind of catalyst probably removes 100% of it.

On the other hand, if the machine doesn't have a way to mitigate the ozone, it doesn't take much to cause weird reactions to things that get too close. Rubber for example, breaks down immediately when exposed to ozone. Some metals will oxidize immediately. Ozone harms plants very fast.

But as the above poster said, it's probably not a serious threat.

[havocmom]

33. Know a little about damage from ozone

Grew up in Southern California ;)

Ozone is nasty at ground level.

[oneighty]

26. Okay

My question is well answered. (I been thinking bout getting one ionic filter for my room. My computer and TV screen suggest I might could use one. I bet!

How have you been?

180

[ProfessorGAC]

28. M'Eh!

My MS acted up this summer and it's lasted a few months this time. I'm getting around just fine, but it hurts like hell. I'm hoping that as the milder weather rolls in, things will settle down. Other than that, i'm ok! How about you?
The Professor

[oneighty]

29. The summer of my descent Prof

Laid low by the sins of my past + seventy-two years. Everyday now has become a special treat.

I spent many years working with life support systems of one type or another now I am living at the end of a clear plastic (Tygon?) oxygen hose. Simple, uncomplicated.

Such is life. At least I do not find it strange.

Good luck to you by golly.

Ed

[deek]

31. HEPA is best

Honeywell sells one now that only needs the inexpensive charcoal prefilter replaced, not the HEPA. It is very quiet.

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11096642&search=honeywell&Sp=S&Mo=2&cm_re=1-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&N=0&whse=BC&Dx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&Dr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ne=4000000&D=honeywell&Ntt=honeywell&No=0&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1