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ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:17 PM
Original message
Dog the Bounty Hunter Arrested! Pending extradition... ** PICS **
I posted it on my site...

http://www.swsnews.com/fullstory.php?iid=4767



MSNBC has learned that U.S. officials have arrested TV reality star Duane "Dog" Chapman and two family members for extradition to Mexico.

Chapman's wife told MSNBC's Rita Cosby that heavily armed U.S. marshals arrived at the family's house today and took away Chapman, his brother, Tim, and son, Leland.

Cosby said she was told that Mexican government officials wanted the three men sent back there in relation to a three-year-old case.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. GOOD!
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hopefully the end of his pukeworthy TV show
Fuckin lowlife - just as bad as the fugitives he chases.
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Bottom feeders chasing bottom feeders.
Can't stand that program.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
126. So who WOULD you have chase them?
If the FBI caught a rapist in Mexico, would THAT be OK? You really think they're that competent?:banghead:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Poetic Justice???
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. fuckin' superhero wannabe.
nt
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. HA! Couldn't happen to a "nicer" guy!
HA!

Hope he now rots in jail - fuckwad.

Now if we can just imprision the idiots that though that would be a good TV show, we'd have real "justice"...
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. dog
I am with ya....he and his so called wife are nothing but low life
ignorant slime that think their dog crap dont stink
let him rot in jail, of course he is already full of rot
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Found a bit more: Bounty hunting's illegal in Mexico, where he went
to grab Andrew Luster, the Revlon heir:
'Dog The Bounty Hunter' Arrested In Hawaii

POSTED: 11:30 am PDT September 14, 2006
UPDATED: 12:18 pm PDT September 14, 2006

~snip~
In 2003, the Chapmans went to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, to retrieve Max Factor heir Andrew Luster, who was wanted in the U.S. on rape charges.

Luster is now in jail, serving a 124-year term, but at the time, the Chapmans were also jailed by Mexican authorities for a brief time three years ago.

Bounty hunting is considered a crime in Mexico.

At the time, the Chapmans were charged by Mexican authorities with illegally capturing Luster. The three returned to the United States after posting bail of their own.
(snip/...)
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/9850444/detail.html
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. That's when he got his TV show!
After he grabbed Luster, he was offered his show. LOL Serves him right.
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2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
86. He brought a rich prick rapist out of hiding and got him thrown in prison?
For 124 years?

I don't know anything about his political beliefs, but that was a class move.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #86
121. That's what my mom said, too, when I told her about it
Mom is quite a liberal.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #86
124. Mexico apparently did nothing on that score
I really think that possibly that this guy (the bounty hunter) didn't bribe the right official or bribe enough of them. Mexico really needs to clean up it's own act. There are over 200 unsolved murders in Nuevo Laredo alone, mostly female factory workers. Possibly a serial killer or many serial killers at work. They do nothing.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. I like this guy. Why would people hate this guy anyway?
he treats perps like human beings which is contrary to what I see on Cops etc.. and in real life.

If he is wanted for snagging some douchebag criminal in Mexico I don't think that is fair at all.

I hate cops as much as the next guy, trust me. This guy just seems like the opposite of what I have come to expect from police and authority in general. I won't applaud his finding trouble.

Probably make for great ratings for his show I bet. I doubt many people will find pleasure with this situation, it will probably make him more popular unless he is wanted for something other than bounty hunting.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. He loves bush
and pretends to be a Christian. I used to like him too.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. I don't like those things about him but
I don't see people in black and white either. I do see he caught a rapist and that is what he is in trouble for? I also see he treats people he catches like people and with a degree of respect and sympathy I wish all law enforcement used.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. He's not that nice to all the people he catches
My son just called me to tell me about this and he said "Hey Mom, that hypocrite Dawg got arrested"

That sums it up pretty well.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. From what I have seen he is pretty damn considerate even to those criminal
least deserve it. I hate "Cops" and other law enforcement show. I would not say I am a "fan" of Dog's show. I have very clearly noticed a higher level of respect for the law and people's rights/dignity from Dog than most law enforcement people I have met in real life.

I don't lump him in with the Gestapo's we most associate with police in the US.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. That's not saying much, is it?
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Sadly no, it is not. Yet it is in a way.
I respect anyone who tries a little harder than others. He seems like one of the good guys to me because he does not seem to revel in the suffering of those he catches.
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bumponalog Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
51. He is *not* "law enforcement"
He some yahoo that makes money catching people who skip out on their bail.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. Amen
And he broke the law himself. Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
101. That is NOT true.
If you've ever watched the show once they are captured, most of the time they help them and their families get their lives back on track, including giving them jobs and paying their kids to do odd jobs around their businesses.
Duckie
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. thank you duckie
I agree...wonder why all the hate?
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. No idea...
Probably because there USED TO BE a picture of Bush in his office, and he proclaims to be a Christian. :shrug:
Duckie
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. yeah, well
unfortunately I think you're right...but I was under the impression this was a FREE country....I hate it when we act like THEM..
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
78. He's in trouble because he broke Mexican law....
not because he caught a rapist. Bounty hunting in Mexico is against the law, doesn't matter if he caught Osama.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
97. Pretends to be Christian sure is right.
I watched his "show" once and through the whole damn episode he was trying to offer his advice to the perps he caught and he sounded like some tele-evangelist. It was horrible. Although, catching a p.o.s. rapist in Mexico does earn him some points.
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anotherdrew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. I'd say they forgot to pay off the locals. n/t
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sadiesworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
52. I've only caught a minute or two of his show here and there while surfing
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 04:59 PM by sadiesworld
but I was pleasantly surprised by the humanity he showed those he "captured". :shrug:
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
62. Actually
this fella has a prison history and avoided some prosecution by testifying against his partners in crime. Not that that is a bad thing; however, to promote himself as a law abiding "dude"...just saying.

Jenn
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. it's not as though he hides that, though
he mentions the fact that he used to be in prison about three times a show, it seems.
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youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
93. but he turned his life around
when he found god, etc etc
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. So we'll send Dog the Bounty hunter to Mexico but Mexico won't
send MS13 members who murder American Citizens back up here to stand trial. Makes perfect sense.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. well, i doubt "the dog" is up for "the chair" in mexico.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Let's live down to Mexico's standards!
Yeah baby...child labor...environmental degradation...

We're almost there anyway!
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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
89. seriously.
this is the standard that's been set in the Bush administration. "America, hey, it still beats Mexico!"
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. Every "Dog" has his day... in court!
http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=4872

Hawaii-based bounty hunter Duane "Dog" Chapman was arrested this morning in Honolulu by federal officers and faces extradition to Mexico, authorities said today....

In an interview with MSNBC’s Rita Cosby,
( :puke: -Ed.) Chapman’s wife, Beth, said armed U.S. marshals arrived at the family’s Portlock (wealthy seaside neighborhood east of town -Ed.) house and arrested Chapman. His brother, Tim, and son, Leland, were also arrested in another location, authorities said....

Chapman's victory turned sour quickly after neighbors called Mexican police about street fighting during Luster's capture, and the bounty hunter was arrested along with two other Americans with him.

Under Mexican law, bounty hunting is considered a form of kidnapping.


Did he not know this before he went in there? Guess he's not one of the smarter breeds of "Dog" :P

Guess that leaves our off-the-charts Spam consumption as the most embarrassing thing left out here...
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FormerDem06 Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Bounty Hunting is considered kidnapping?
But police can throw you in jail and take your wallet for no reason?

Makes perfect sense to me. I guess Mexican officials just want Mexico to be a safe haven for ALL criminals; not just their police and gang members.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
41. If he was arrested for it back then, it should have been dealt with then
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 05:10 PM by rocknation
I might be able to be sympathetic if this had been dealt with five years ago. And what does this do to the Luster case? Remember that he's a guy who like to film himself screwing unconscious women. How far away was he from kicking it up a notch and filming himself screwing dead ones? I thought the American and Mexican police had gotten over the fact that he embarrassed them.

Even if I didn't like Dog, I'd say this case deserves to gets laughed out of court.

:headbang:
rocknation
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
76. it wasn't dealt with then because he jumped bail back then
Apparently they were arrested, were released on bond, and never returned to face their charges.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Wow I thought DU was against violence against women?
But apparently people here would rather see the bounty hunter who caught the scumbag rapist than the actual rapist be punished. Sometimes this place makes me wonder.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Vigilante justice is wrong
regardless of the purpose.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I just don't see it
I don't think a rapist should be able to go free because he crossed a line. I also see that these guys don't just go around rounding up random people on the street, they are looking for people who are wanted and have skipped bail.

Maybe we should live in a world without police or authority? I just don't see how this guy is one of the bad guys? I see plenty of bad guys in police uniforms, just not this guy.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. It is Mexico's law and he broke it
Seems pretty simple to me.

I also know that Mexico doesn't harbor US fugitives. There is that guy who murdered his wife in Nashville and escaped to Mexico. The Mexican cops arrested him and sent him back to the US last year.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. So why did he have to go pick up the rapist?
Law enforcement in Mexico is nothing to get all excited about, you have been there before right? They make our cops look respectable.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. I don't know the details
All I know is he broke the law in Mexico.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Read the whole story then.
He is wanted for catching a rapist that the Mexicans had not yet bothered to do on their own out of the goodness of their heart. I don't see the problem.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
66. Bounty hunting is against the law in Mexico
Which part of that do you not understand?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
67. So it is OUR responsibility to clean up Mexico?
Hmm sounds like the logic that led us into Iraq.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
69. He had to do it because the cops down there
were too incompetent and corrupt to catch the rapist themselves. He made them look bad so now they are getting even with him.
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demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
108. Mexico can and DOES harbor US fugitives
We have an extradition treaty with them. Mexico does not have the death penalty, and says the death penalty is against the Mexican Constitution. If a criminal from the US is facing possible death penalty, Mexico will not extradite - under that treaty.

So if you're going to commit a crime in the US and flee to Mexico, make it a good one or else you get shipped back.
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. We have police to catch criminals. We don't need private
vigilante groups doing it. In my book, bounty hunters are lower than a snake's belly.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
65. well he is a licensed bounty hunter
not a vigilante. It's a valid profession and he's good at it. Of course, you have a point since it is illegal in Mexico, that's a pretty blurred ethical area to run into when you have to break a law in another country to catch somebody as vile as Andrew Luster.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. And he has dodged his court appearance since 2003
Same thing he picks up bad guys for.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. yeah he's not at fault there
for sure. :)
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. Has Luster been released? Did I miss something?
As far as I know, the actual rapist is still being punished. How does that make me and others in favor of violence against women?
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Don't you get it? You either support "the doggie"...
or you must be a rapist yourself!!!
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Maybe you are a rapist, I don't know? I just don't feel bad a rapist got
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 04:30 PM by Sterling
caught and I am not so blinded by some fringe anti authoritarian neurosis I think the guy who catches the rapists is in fact my enemy?

Have fun with your little hate fest my fringers, most people will rally behind authority when these kinds of things happen. You may get some sort of sad pleasure out of this but in the end it will only make this guy a bigger legend.

Good luck with that authority complex BTW. Maybe you will change your tune when your daughter's rapists is hiding out down south. I am sure the Mexican authorities will take great care of your problems.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. YOUR fringe "pro-authoritarian neurosis"...
is the same mindset that has given us secret CIA prisons.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
109. thank you Sterling
I have read this thread in disbelief...why the hate? Maybe a little class prejudice here? I agree with what you said...I don't understand the hate for this guy who cleaned up his life and is trying to be on the good side for once. Luster was living IN PLAIN SIGHT IN Mexico and they did nothing...
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Well you have Dog to thank that he is in custody.
You do understand that right? Otherwise the guy would be in Mexico possibly raping other women, maybe just escaping justice. You would not have the guy facing the consequences of his actions. If mexico wants to let rapist run the streets fine. I have no problem sending people down there to get them. I hope Dog goes free. I am sure he will and will be more popular as a result of this bullshit.
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ziggy_luv Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
79. I like Dog...
He really is much nicer than the police it seems. He does treat people with more respect that some police do. And thank goodness that he has a job, yeah it may suck ,butsombody has to do it, and nobody has outsourced it. His job is to find fellons. Dog and Beth's business is to loan bail bonds. And if you ever need one you would be thank full for people like them.
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
71. His fuckin Mullet is a crime in itself - CONVICT HIM!
His cheesey wardrobe doesn't help eather.

That jackass has always reminded me of the 'moran guy'
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
77. that's a totally bogus argument
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 07:46 PM by fishwax
Dog broke the law, and arguing that he ought not escape the consequences of that hardly requires siding with a rapist over the dog.

I like dog's show, and I find him and his family pretty interesting. But while the show certainly portrays him as more considerate and compassionate than most in that line of work, I'm generally disposed against bounty hunters, and I'm not sure I'd object if it were illegal here, as it is in mexico.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. Making bounty hunting illegal here...
would mean the end to the bail system here. I WOULD object to that (as someone who has needed bail once).

I've lived in Mexico, there isn't a legal system except on paper. It's all money based and Lister with his cash would never have been even issued a parking ticket while living there. IMHO, justice means scum like him are in jail.

The only reason they are going after Dog is they've been made to look as corrupt as they really are. They are embarrassed and are looking for revenge.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. "asshole"? You're welcome.... damn!
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. oh, don't worry...
you seem to have insulted someones version of "superman" or "the hulk" or whatever. It's painful to watch someones childlike fantasies die.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I just don't fantasize about letting rapists run free.
Imagine that. Obviously you are blinded by hatred for any kind of authority.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Deleted message
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. No he was wanted for going to a foreign country
and BREAKING THE LAW.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. So it's OK to break the law if it's for a good cause?
I will now mimic the xenophobic anti-immigration segment of DU:

WHAT PART OF ILLEGAL DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND???

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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Good point
Good cause = locking up rapists, bad cause = fucking up the immigration system for your own personal benefit.

Yes I am ok with Mexican laws being broken in an effort to bring violent fugitives to justice. I don't see a lot of respect from Mexico as to the laws of the US.

On my right and wrong scale it is OK to do what was done to catch the guy we caught. No problemo what so ever Amigo.

I can see Dog's ratings blowing up from the press they will get on this. Plz go ahead help make him a martyr, pile on.

Talk about making the left look retarded, you guys are amazing. This is the kind of shit that alienates most of the country from progressives. It's the nutty shit some on the left are willing to jump on board with that will keep normal people from ever sympathizing with our goals.
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. well, i guess you've defined who enjoys your derision...
so why are you here?
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. ...
:thumbsup:
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. The rape victims and their families agree with you
:thumbsup:
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
123. Oh you go Sterling!
Thank you for being able to reply to this weird hatred...I'm too p. o.ed to even respond to this tripe...I feel like I wandered into a repuke site...:puke:
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. Link from local Honolulu paper above at #10
any time U.S. marshals arrest someone out here, it's breaking news.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
16. Leave a comment here
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
21. Well another topic for Nancy Grace to prattle on about
I sure won't miss his crappy TV show.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
54. Probably not !
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 05:10 PM by ShortnFiery
Nancy Grace doesn't cover anything that doesn't have a clearly demented *sex fiend* angle.

Sure, you can hate everyone, but not REALLY spew the venom for cheap thrills like Nancy Grace does. I fear she has not tackled her own personal demons and "gets off" in a neurotic ranting from the sex fiend stories. It's not health Nancy, get help! But most important, get off of our TV sets during Prime Time! :P
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. From the International Herald-Tribune:
http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/ap/2006/09/14/america/NA_GEN_US_Bounty_Hunter_Arrest.php

Bounty hunter Duane "Dog" Chapman arrested by U.S. Marshals
The Associated Press

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2006

HONOLULU TV reality star Duane "Dog" Chapman and two co-stars on his show were arrested early Thursday in Hawaii on charges of illegal detention and conspiracy in an alleged kidnapping three years ago in Mexico, U.S. Marshals said. Chapman, 53, his son Leland Chapman, and associate Timothy Chapman were taken into custody in an operation involving 15 officers, said Mark Hanohano, U.S. Marshal for the district of Hawaii. They did not resist arrest, he said.

"All three were very compliant," Hanohano said. "It went down without incident." Mona K. Wood, a publicist for the star of the popular A&E series "Dog the Bounty Hunter," said Chapman would be "vindicated." "He arrests the bad guys — and he is definitely not one of them," she said.

The charges stem from Chapman's capture of Max Factor heir Andrew Luster on June 18, 2003 in Puerto Villarta, Mexico. Chapman's capture of Luster — a serial rapist — catapulted the bounty hunter to fame and led to the reality series on the A&E channel.

The three are being held in custody in Honolulu, and bail has not been set. They will face an extradition hearing to Mexico under terms of treaties between the U.S. and Mexico, Credic said. Charges have been pending against the three since local police in Mexico arrested them shortly after they roped in Luster. They posted bail but never returned to Puerto Villarta for their court hearing on July 15, 2003.



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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
46. All this time the bounty hunter has been a bail jumper
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 04:47 PM by Lone_Star_Dem
Irony thy name is Dog.

Charges have been pending against the three since local police in Mexico arrested them shortly after they roped in Luster. They posted bail but never returned to Puerto Villarta for their court hearing on July 15, 2003.
http://www.iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/ap/2006/09/14/america/NA_GEN_US_Bounty_Hunter_Arrest.php
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
53. I'll file this one in the "I don't give a sh*t" stack ...
:P
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
55. like only one other person here, I like Dog
--he goes out of his way to actually help the people he is catching by giving them jobs after they are bailed out again, or watching out for and giving jobs to their teenage children and taking care of their pets. Once they are in the car with him he is actually kind and gentle to them. He lectures and counsels them on the importance of being responsible, drug free, nonviolent to women--to the point that he consistently makes hardened crminals break down and cry. I don't care if he leads a group prayer before they go out on their raids, that is his right and if that gives them a boost and brings them together, so what? (and I'm particularly anti-religion). He is never obnoxious about it, although it did bother me a little to see that he has a picture of * in his office. He is actually a decent human being, it is an extremely interesting, close-knit, empathetic, generous and super-kind family. The way he talks to and brings up the youngest ones (6 years old) says it all. His style is 80s throwback, but where would we be without characters? It is that "character" appeal that makes the show. I like reality shows that give insights into "fringers," people who are NOT bland, ordinary middle-America sitcom dwellers.

He is doing a dirty job that does need to be done. People who jump bail are scum, someone has trusted them and stand to lose big-time by their behavior--not to mention the loss to society of people escaping justice. In many cases it is Dog himself who stands to lose tens of thousands of dollars--there is poetic justice in watching someone have the power to bring closure to that--unlike you and me. If we are ripped off, what can we do about it? It is unfortunate that Mexico has such a law, thus providing a "safe haven" for scum rapists and murderers who are essentially ripping off society by fleeing down there and preying on Mexicans.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Different Strokes for Different Folks ... (Psychedelic 70s meme)
Edited on Thu Sep-14-06 05:18 PM by ShortnFiery
But damn! Like my Mom's love of "Judge Judy", you've got it bad for this *Dog* of a series.

That's cool. At least there's truth in advertising with this "bread and circus."

To each his/her own. ;)

On Edit: I have to admit that I would make sure to time my dinner break as a Surgical Orderly on the swing shift to watch the "Kung Fu" series. :blush: I have no right to judge you as goofy. :hi:
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la la Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
80. hey - I like 'the dog', too!
It's great entertainment- plus Beth is a hellava woman! ;>)

I'm very depressed right now! Good thing that there are a lot of reruns on right now - I won't suffer from lack of dog! heh heh
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ThsMchneKilsFascists Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
81. make that two
I dislike most TV, and "reality" TV in particular.
I was flipping through channels and came across his show on A&E.
I was hooked from the start.
He didn't use guns and tried to talk his way through situations.
He had a lot of patience with messed up people.
His obviously loved his co-workers who were also his family.
Not your typical reality crap fest at all.
So what if he has a mullet?
I bet many current mullet haters are former mullet owners.
So what if Dog and his pack are still in the 80s fashion-wise?
Bottom line for me - One less rapist in Mexico or anywhere else is welcome news.
People sh8tting on Dog & family based on looks are juvenile in their behavior.
FREE DOG CHAPMAN!

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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
85. Another person here who likes Dog.
And I even like his wife, Beth. I don't care about their political leanings or even that they are supposedly Christians. He is doing a service by getting the scum off the streets. And their show is a real trip.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #55
110. Nope
there is more than one of us...he took that lowlife off the streets and takes plenty more off too....I cannot fathom the hate toward the guy..
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Janice325 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
57. Oh, the horror of it all!!!!
This is going to be an excuse for Rita Cosby to show up on MNSBC with some "special report" or "breaking news" now. I've been glad that Dan Abrams pulled her show.
She and her voice make me go &&***%$$#^())UYIIGJKJGL:U:KLHOPH*O*Y(PY_UY_)U!!!!!!!!!
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ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
59. THIS IS BIGGER THAN STEVE IRWIN!
IT IS!
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
60. c'mon . . . ya gotta have a sense of humor here, folks . . .
this is the ultimate American success story, emblematic (or symptomatic) of what our country is all about today . . . here's a convicted murderer who served his time and decided to work on the right side of the law -- albeit in the seedy world of tracking bail jumpers . . . he and his crew look ridiculous with the leather, the gear, the mullets and the pony tails, the tattoos -- hell, his wife wears stiletto heels on their "busts" (a word which accurately reflects her own appearance, btw) . . . perfect fodder for the 21st century American tv culture . . .

I watch it occasionally (and I do mean occasionally) much as you would watch a train wreck -- it's just hard to turn away . . . and you gotta give the guy and his crew props for never using firearms, for their skill in talking their way through tough situations, and for the obvious humanity they show many of the "perps" that they haul in . . . they may not be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but beneath all the costumes and the attitude they seem to be genuinely good people . . .

while I don't approve of bounty hunting on principle, as long as it's legal in the U.S. these guys do it about as well as anyone . . . and they're entertaining as hell to watch -- occasionally (a steady diet would be a just bit too much) . . . :)

and that's all I have to say about that . . .
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #60
99. My husband was watching "Dog" last night
I'd never seen it before, so I sat and watched some episodes with him.

>and they're entertaining as hell to watch -- occasionally (a steady diet would be a just bit too much) . . .<

The only reality shows I even watch are "Project Runway" without fail, and occasionally, "Queer Eye". I enjoyed watching "Dog". I don't care for the fact he's a Bushie fan and seems a bit, well, preachy, but he seems genuinely dedicated to his family and to his work.

Good for him for putting Luster in jail where he belongs.

Julie
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MGD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
61. I'd say less than $5000 should be sufficient to buy his way out of this.
His celebrity status will be a detriment however.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
64. Dog caught one of the foulest pieces of shit ever
so he can't be all that bad. Those videos of Andrew Luster date raping helpless women are awful. Creepy and sick. Dog took that guy off the street and that is a great thing in my book.

I have watched his show a little here and there. He's basically a good guy, he is one of the most skilled trackers ever, hardly a Keystone cop wannabe. He has serious talent at what he does, one of my former roommates was part of one of the most elite tracking units on earth and he couldn't do the stuff Dog has done. Dog also treats fugitives pretty good and with some dignity. He has his faults, he definitely looks like a trashy guy, but he isn't that bad. I have heard he likes Bush and so on, but he is a solid guy who treats his friends and family well and shows a lot of humanity to the people he catches. I don't particularly like him or hate him one way or another, nor do I think his show is much more than typical reality garbage, but this guy is a pretty decent human being, not perfect by any means, but none of us are.
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
72. His fuckin Mullet is a crime in itself - CONVICT HIM!
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Yew libruls are jist jealous cuz yew can't grow no mullit yerselves
:)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
84. Arrested for getting this rapist asshole behind bars:
Andrew Stuart Luster (b. December 15, 1963) is an heir to the Max Factor cosmetics fortune who was convicted of a series of rapes in 2003.

Luster had spent much of his life living off a $3.1 million trust fund as he traveled and surfed at various beaches.

In 1996, 1997 and 2000, however, Luster allegedly gave three women GHB, a known date-rape drug, and raped them while they were unconscious. Luster was brought to trial in 2002. Soon afterward, police officers found videotapes of Luster raping the women in question, including one tape labeled "Shauna GHBing." On January 3, 2003, after one of the victims had testified, but before the jury viewed the "Shauna" tape, Luster vanished from his house, along with his dog and his truck. Luster was later convicted in absentia to 124 years in prison by a California court. The California Court of Appeal refused the appeal his attorneys filed on his behalf <1>, ruling that as a fugitive from justice, Luster had forfeited his right to appeal. The California Supreme Court <2> and the United States Supreme Court <3> later refused to disturb this ruling.

Luster found his way to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, where he was taken into custody by then-unknown bounty hunter Duane "Dog" Chapman, his son Leland Chapman, an associate, and two TV crewmen, in a noisy scuffle on June 18, 2003. The next day he was returned to the U.S., and was imprisoned.

___________________________


He broke a law in Mexico to get a privileged rich serial rapist behind bars. While it might be fun to point and laugh at his hair or right him off because of his political views, I bet the rape survivors are saddened by this news.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. in theory you are correct.
But as someone who has lived in Mexico, they really don't have a legal system (except on paper). It's all about money and pride. The only real "law" he broke was he didn't pay them off and embarrassed them while doing it. Those are two cardinal sins when dealing with the Mexican police.

This isn't about skipping bail or breaking any Mexican laws. The only reason they are going after him now, is he is now considered rich and famous, so this is their chance to get some cash and embarrass him back.
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allisonthegreat Donating Member (586 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. I have to admit...
I have watched the TV show...because I am addicted to TV probably...I don't know that he is right all the time...but for some reborn again Christians, they do throw a lot of language around. (not that there is anything wrong with that)
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. "displaying a very freepish attitude"
Edited on Fri Sep-15-06 12:26 PM by GloriaSmith
Yeah thanks buddy. How is saying that the rape survivors might be a saddened by this news freeperish? How is looking at this from the point of view of the victims a freeper thing? Explain that one to me. :eyes:

Name calling does nothing but stop the conversation. Pretty pointless thing to do on a forum.

on edit: show me where I said he shouldn't be punished for his crime. Fucking christ.
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2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. I like your sig - I've never heard that quote before
it's so true
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
91. DELETE
Edited on Fri Sep-15-06 08:58 AM by notmypresident
Never Mind, thought better of it. Apologies.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
96. Considering how the corrupt Mexican police treat American prisoners...
...I find it very ironic that they're making a big stink about Dog. These are the same police that throw American tourists in jail and extort bribes out of them. They are corrupt as all hell.

I don't mean to trash Mexico. I love the country. But there is a lot of unethical behavior in their infrastructure.
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FILAM23 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
98. Due to the fact that Mexico
will not extradite murderers and rapists back to the US I hope
a US judge tells the Mexican govt to f**k off.
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YellowRubberDuckie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
100. In order for them to get extradited..
The law they broke in Mexico has to also against the law here, and obviously it's not. And this is old news. They are now out on bail. I love this family and I feel they are getting a raw deal. They do a lot of good for people and the war on ice in Hawaii. Once they capture the people they are after they are very nice to them, including helping their families and them get their lives back on track. They are people who say they're christians, then act like it. Sure he might like Bush, but who the fuck cares? The good he does out weighs that.
Duckie
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
104. wow
obviously a lot of DUers hate this guy...and I don't care for his Bush love and so on...bu this is AMERICA still, right? The guy has a right to his beliefs (as do we all) and I for one am glad he caught that creep rapist...this is pure and simple the government embarassed because THEY couldn't do it....the Mexican law enforcement system is corrupt throughout...
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ellisonz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
106. Dog in Context
Anyone who has seen Dog's show realizes that Da Kine Bail Bond's is a Hawaii based company. Moreover, Dog is a very public figure in Hawaii who is well respected by the population in large (no small feat), the local government, and the police. Hawaii has an severe methamphetamine abuse problem. Dog has been out front in leading anti-meth publicity campaigns and in personally dealing with the meth problem on his show with dignity and respect.

Mahalo
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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Mahalo
I have seen, first hand, the rise in crime/drug use in Hawaii. It's sad, that no matter how much good someone tries to do, they will always have a massive amount of enemies. I guess we already learned this by the discussions about Steve Irwin.
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
107. Never been a fan of Dog.
But I doubt he deserves my Schadenfreude.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
112. Now THAT
is an excellent reply.

Neither am I a big fan, but I cannot understand why the hatred on here...because he likes the Chimp? Free country here peeps. Please let's not be like them...

He took a total creep who was hiding in plain sight in Mexico and brought him to justice. That is good by me. Luster had been CONVICTED of EIGHTY-SIX COUNTS of RAPE! Geez, people.
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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
111. I don't get some of these responses
Are they from people behind bars, or what?

Chapman went after a rapist, Andrew Stuart Luster, because he was an escaped fugitive, convicted of 86 counts...who raped women. Luster is a little rich-snot (like our chimp-in-chief), who thought he was above the law. Now, it might appear, the Max Factor heirs could be paying-off Mexican officials out of some kind of sick revenge. So, ok, are you saying it is better to just let little rich-snot trust-fund babies run off to Mexico, and surf all day and party all night (slipping GHB into womens' drinks), instead of paying for their violent crimes?

:shrug:
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. Yeah, seriously.
Personally, I think somebody like Luster should be brought down by any means necessary. What's the worse crime here? Bounty hunting being illegal in Mexico or raping 86 women? Dog wouldn't have had to do that, if the Mexican government took care of the real criminal.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Did you happen to see the special on A & E last night about his arrest?
It was filmed since they got bailed out and told the whole story about the hunt for Luster, his capture, and Chapman's arrest last week.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. I caught the beginning of the 2nd showing of it, but I fell asleep.
I wish I didn't because it was really interesting.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I didn't know what the Rita Cosby connection was before the program.
Something is really fishy about this whole deal...When Chapman made bail in Mexico, he was told the charge was a misdemeanor. I'm wondering if somehow, Luster's family is involved in this.

:shrug:
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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. Doesn't take a conspiracy nut to consider that one!
It wouldn't be the first time...and it wouldn't be the last.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
119. OK, I have a question here
I never heard of "Dog the Bounty Hunter" until he just got arrested. I only know what I've read on DU and from linked articles. But if this guy still had the same personality, still did the same stuff but was a Democrat, would there be as much hate towards him? My mother-in-law likes Bush, it drives me crazy but I don't hate her.

I'm all for getting serial rapists out of range of the general populace. Did he do something other than liking Bush or break bounty hunting laws in Mexico to deserve the hate?
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. Aside from people who disagree with bounty hunting in general and the
fact that he's a reality tv show star, not that I'm aware of. I've seen a few episodes of his show and I think he's a pretty good guy. After he catches the guy, he actually treats them with respect. I don't understand where all the hate comes from or why people are acting like he's somebody who belongs behind bars, when he caught someone who raped 86 women.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. I agree -- Luster is a raging sociopath
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
125. Luster was convicted of 86 rapes
CONVICTED, mind you...not accused.

He was hiding in plain sight in a resort village. Neither OUR government or the Mexicans were doing a damn thing about it. Wonder where those marshals were then....

The warrant on the Chapman family had less than 30 days before expiration. A little strange, huh? The Chapmans were certainly NOT in hiding of any sort.

Dog was working WITH local Mexican police to catch this guy.

Word is, that the BUSH administration is up to some kind of dirty deal with the Mexicans.

Luster is NOW behind bars serving over a 100 year sentence.

Come on. What is up with all you haters?
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