Commit indie ( independent music) heresy with me!

[tigereye]

I prefer Yo La Tengo to Sonic Youth.


There, I said it.

What information would cause you to be forever ostracized from alt.indie hipsterdom? ;)

[driver8]

1. I never got the whole Sonic Youth thing...I love the song "Teenage Riot",

but that's about it. They are supposed to be so innovative and groundbreaking but I don't see it.

[mvd]

2. I like Sonic Youth, but they aren't gods IMO

I'm not a big Arcade Fire or Clap Your Hands Say Yeah person. I bet that would be blasphemous in that crowd.

[tigereye]

3. Rather Ripped

is massively accessible - very radio-friendly. Amazing.

[mvd]

4. I enjoyed that CD

Maybe more than some of their others? That might also be an indie offense.

I don't know how big Scott Walker is in the indie world, but I don't like him.

[HughBeaumont]

39. SY is one of those bands where I tried . . . and tried . . . and tried .

. . . no. Sorry. Nothing they ever did really blew me away.

[tigereye]

5. kick

for any indie lovers who have not seen it....

[anarch]

6. OK then: Nick Drake is kinda boring

Also, Black Sabbath rules! The Strokes suck! I'd rather listen to Def Leppard than the Arcade Fire! I like the songs that Belle wrote better than the ones that Sebastian did!


How's that?

[tigereye]

7. I like Nick Drake, so that's some pretty good heresy!

It was weird hearing him on that VW commercial.... :(


However, anything that is media trendy ( like the Strokes) probably ain't indie. Haven't heard the Arcade Fire, so I can't argue that one with you... ;)

[warrens]

8. Weezer sounds like Billy Joel

And the Pixies are really, really boring these days.

[anarch]

9. LOL

[ComerPerro]

23. Weezer on its best day couldn't sound like Billy Joel on his worst

:rofl:

[tigereye]

102. mmm

I'm not sure I agree about Weezer. Billy Joel wasn't that geeky when he arrived on the music scene.

[MrCoffee]

10. I'm not wild about Elliot Smith.

[taterguy]

11. Husker Du's Candy Apple Grey had some really great songs

I don't care if it was a Warner Brothers release. Dead Set on Destruction is as good as anything they did in their earlier years

[HughBeaumont]

41. WIth Bob Mould, you could almost NEVER go wrong.

[WCGreen]

83. Rember the Nothern Pikes from around the same time as

Husker Du....

[ghostsofgiants]

12. I like Fall Out Boy's cover of "Love Will Tear Us Apart" better than...

The original Joy Division version.

:evilgrin:

[RetroLounge]

33. Oh, Man, that IS heresy...

:rofl:

RL

[ghostsofgiants]

34. I am good at what I do.

[tigereye]

103. well to be frank with you Primate

I still think Joy Division was over-rated, and they ruined my college years with love-sick angst.
But they did have great bass lines.


You aren't really serious, are you? ;)

[ghostsofgiants]

126. I love Joy Division...

But I am kinda serious. (Goodbye indie cred. :P)

And Peter Hook's basslines = the awesome.

[tigereye]

141. She's lost control was my favorite

[ghostsofgiants]

144. That's mine too!

:D

[tigereye]

145. I wore the grooves of that record out....

but I still thought they were too nihilistic at the time. I was more of a punk protest type even then. ;)

How is your school stuff going so far?

[nemo137]

13. I don't like Wilco.

Well, that's not entirely true. I liked "Being There" alot, and "Summer Teeth," but how the hell did Yankee Hotel Foxtrot get all those 10.0 reviews? And why do none of these little Wilcoheads like Uncle Tupelo, Jeff Tweedy's earlier and infinitely superior band?

[mvd]

14. I must be fairly indie credible, because I disagree here..

a lot already. Elliott Smith, all Wilco albums, and Weezer deserve their praise IMO.

[GOPisEvil]

15. I like to think of Uncle Tupelo as Jay Farrar's band.

Dammit. :D

I also WAY prefer Son Volt to Wilco, so I do have a bias. ;)

[mvd]

17. Can't really say about Son Volt yet

But it would be hard to top Wilco for me..

I'm no indie snob at all, though (indie is part of what I like, but I don't care how I'm perceived by that crowd.)

[GOPisEvil]

19. I think you're either a Farrar person or a Tweedy person.

Farrar people can like Tweedy and vice versa, but when push comes to shove, you prefer one over the other. I'm just more into Farrar than Tweedy, although my opinion of Tweedy has increased in recent years.

[mvd]

28. Seems to be true

I do think some Son Volt could interest me - just maybe not as much.

This will be real blasphemy: I like Liz Phair, post-indie. Especially Somebody's Miracle.

Hi, GOPisEvil! :hi:

[tigereye]

107. I actually prefer Farrar's voice

but Tweedy seems more playful...

[tigereye]

105. I'm not sure there is a crowd anymore, actually

since so much has been subsumed into the "mainstream"

[Zomby Woof]

18. I agree

Tweedy was like the Paul McCartney of Uncle Tupelo - his 'solo' career is good for a few songs, but give me John Lennon/Jay Farrar!
Wilco = Wings : Son Volt = Plastic Ono Band

(Ok, that analogy is a stretch, but you get the gist) :D

I would say that Wilco's only good stuff was the two "Mermaid Avenue" albums, and that's due to Billy Bragg and the ghost of Woody Guthrie.

[GOPisEvil]

20. Son Volt can take darn-near a decade off, come back with a new cast,

and still kick ass. Why? Because Jay Farrar writes damn good songs.

I'll give Tweedy some credit. He wrote some good songs back in the UT days and has written a few with Wilco, but overall he just leaves me...empty.

[Zomby Woof]

22. See? Just like McCartney!

Yeah, he wrote some good songs - but what would you rather listen to - "Fool On The Hill" or "Come Together"? :D

[GOPisEvil]

24. Good Lord...you made a Beatles reference, and it works!

:wow:

[mitchum]

60. Also, because the phenomenal Brad Rice is now playing guitar

[tigereye]

146. well, I do like a lot of their stuff (wilco)

and they do put on a pretty good show. I just liked Tupelo a lot and I prefer Farrar's voice. I don't think I would quite saddle Tweedy with the McCartney sobriquet, although McCartney certainly was no slouch in the writing dept.

As far as POB goes (maybe that is a pretty good analogy, btw), I just went to see a punk/70s NY art retrospective and some feminist artists as well, at the Warhol Museum here, and I have to say that again, old work by Ono and new work by Ono are still amazing. She was decades ahead of her time, and doesn't deserve any of the crap she gets.


Oddly, I prefer Wilco's stuff to Braggs, on Mermaid Ave., Brit Bragg just doesn't have the right sound of the heartland.
And I love Bragg, so that was an interesting revelation.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. Yeah, I'll take Jay Farrar over Jeff Tweedy, any day.

Wilco aint bad, but...

Personally I think Sebastopol was one of the top five albums of the past ten years.

[Ann Arbor Dem]

140. I'm a Son Volt gal myself.....

Wilco I can take or leave. I'm not much of a Jeff Tweedy fan.

[last_texas_dem]

25. "A.M." is my favorite Wilco album

I know that statement would make some heads explode over at Pitchfork media! (It's true, though.)

[Throd]

26. The only thing lamer than Wilco is their fan base.

All the zest of a mayonnaise and white bread sandwich.

[mvd]

61. Neither one is lame

[SlavesandBulldozers]

36. I like Farrar way better than Tweedy.

im not saying that to be heretical, by the way.

The Mars Volta are fucking lame and trying too hard, could use some more practice and complicate their songs some more.

That could be somewhat heretical.

By the way, for the best in indie heresay, you must read Dr. David Thorpe's column "Your Band Sucks" on somethingawful.com. The guy's a fucking genius, and hilarious.

[enigmatic]

93. Uncle Tupelo's been my favorite band since "Still Feel Gone"

And I agree w/ you; I'm a Farrar guy and always have been.

"Being There" and "Summer Teeth" were very good records, but Jeff just doesn't connect w/ me that Jay's stuff always has...

[tigereye]

104. I agree about Uncle Tupelo

[HuskerDU]

178. The number of people who mentioned Uncle Tupelo in this

thread is greater than the number of people at the UT show I saw back in '92.

[Zomby Woof]

16. The Pixies suck maggot ass

They're the reason we lose elections.

[HughBeaumont]

43. See my Sonic Youth post, above, only substitute the names.

Took the wife to see The Saint Pixies last summer. I never wanted to leave a concert so badly in my life. I was literally falling asleep during some of these songs.

[tigereye]

108. what seems to happen is that many of these bands

never appear to grow musically, they often are stuck in their low-fi "coolness" and I think that leaves some of us cold later on and wishing they had stretched out more, or at least learned more chords and scales. Having attended hundreds of lo-fi shows over the years, I now have less tolerance for that, unless it is very pristine.

[tigereye]

147. um, why?

is Black a Rep? ;)

I like the Pixies, but I think they didn't evolve much. They were pretty ground-breaking for the time, though.

[ComerPerro]

21. most indie groups are just wannabe pop acts who can't quite make it

and, when they get the chance, they don't seem to mind going mainstream.

Hows that?

[vickitulsa]

125. That seems wildly heretical, and makes good sense to me.

I'm so damn OLD that I can actually feel sort of bored and impatient toward indie music and even say I don't find it's very "indie" at all.

Oh, and I'm also a singer/songwriter and musician, so that surely affects my thinking on these topics.

But back in the day, stuff that was really indie wasn't called that -- rather it was "avant-garde" or "rebellious," freaky, hip (when hip in that context was a new use for that word), or offbeat. Even the term "offbeat" was kind of rebellious and expressive of the desired independence from mainstream, since it implies one's music isn't even "on beat."

And of course what was indie then was laced heavily with protest, folk, anti-Vietnam-War, and celtic flavors. But there was more to it than just those ingredients ... touches of jazz, blues (the old bluesmen were really big in some circles), the variant R&B, and even some peculiar varieties of country, since that is close kin to a lot of folk themes and sounds. And yet more! Indie then was really inclusive of a wide span of styles, tastes, and themes, which, to me, seems logical to anything that's authentically "independent."

Can't say all those people maintained their "indie purity" for long, either, however, when it came down to being subsumed into the mainstream when their off-the-beaten-path music became popular enough to make them famous and rich. Perhaps it's a dilemma almost any low-fi or self-righteously-Indie or anti-establishment group or solo artist would cave to in time.

Man, do I remember some of the coolest, most hip and laidback and pleasing music scenes from the Sixties, though. Good times -- well, almost always good times in the coffeehouses and basements with beaded doorways and early blacklight and dayglo fun. And of course all those marvelous madras and paisley prints, buffalo sandals, and very long, mostly untamed hair on both sexes. And the incense scents and the other, more potent "burnt offering" scents that pervaded the atmosphere.

Strange how a precious few of those things that were trendy in hip circles then can still be found now, and how a person can develop a lifelong love of a particular scent or herbal remedy or sound. I still enjoy celtic and folk of many kinds -- in fact, Folk Alley is my favorite online music place, though I do hop around a lot.

Nice thread -- thanks for bringing back a lot of good memories for me! :hi:

[tigereye]

150. nice overview and perspective

actually, a lot of what you reference led to punk as well. if you listen to a lot of early punk acts, the drumming is disco drumming, and later, polka beats! Having lots of cool influences is always a good thing. Most of my peers in bands were pleased to labor in obscurity - it was ironically uncool to make a record.

:hi:

[tigereye]

148. that's good

but did you ever see Beat Happening? ;)

[ElboRuum]

175. Indie Heresy

Indie bands either sell out, they disband the moment they find out someone likes their music because they "don't write music to please other people.", or start incorporating theramin into their music to drive off their fans. In all cases, the result suXX0rZ.

It just needs more cow bell.

[asthmaticeog]

27. Neither Interpol nor the Strokes are worth a squirt of pee.

Clap Your Hands Say Yeah are so unspeakably awful the entire indie critical establishment should be jailed for fraud.

R.E.M. may have survived the '80s, but quality didn't join them for the trip. Ditto Nick Cave.

All the really good songs from the Fall's 30 year career would fit on one CD with room to spare a few tunes to the Blue Orchids.

Gnarls Barkley: really? Everybody's seeing God over THAT?

Jens Lekman, Sufjan Stevens and Devendra Banhardt are all the same guy, and he sucks giraffe-ass inside out.

The Ramones might have benefitted from having more than one idea.

The Pixies: we get it. Soft-Loud-Soft-Loud. Not worth a reunion.

On edit: I should mention that two of these, I don't actually believe. See if you can guess!

On further edit: This thread needs Random Koolzip.

[dolo amber]

37. You love Gnarls Barkley

And I can't imagine you'd be so inept as to actually believe that about the Fall.

What do I win? :bounce:

(And to be fair, I really don't need RKz here to talk about the time he had to change his pants after a Dave Matthews Band concert. :eyes:)

[asthmaticeog]

38. I LIKE Gnarls Barkley. Not love. Like. The hype they get is way too much.

You were correct on the Fall, though.

[Spider Jerusalem]

76. I'll guess the other is the bit about R.E.M. and Nick Cave...

since Automatic for the People and New Adventures in Hi-Fi were both damned good and R.E.M. didn't start to suck horribly until after 1996; and Cave did some excellent stuff in the '90's (Let Love In. The Boatman's Call), and this decade (No More Shall We Part, Abbatoir Blues/Lyre of Orpheus)...of course, it could just be my own prejudices speaking, but I don't really see how you can listen to the albums I've mentioned and say they're bad.

[asthmaticeog]

100. Actually it was the Ramones thing.

I didn't really care for any of the albums you cited. De gustibus non desputantum est and all that. Though I haven't heard any of Cave's output in the 'oughts, as I stopped listening around Boatman's Call. :shrug:

[dolo amber]

121. I was gonna guess the Ramones thing

But you hipper-than-though indie kids, there's no telling what you think... :eyes:

[tigereye]

194. yeah the Ramones really suck!

they were such sell-outs! :rofl:

[Spider Jerusalem]

142. Well...

his most recent album (double album, actually), Abbatoir Blues/Lyre of Orphes, is worth a listen, then. Much as I like the early stuff (Tender Prey probably being my favourite of his '80's albums) I have to say it's a strong contender for his best work ever.

[asthmaticeog]

143. I think my housemate has those, I'll give 'em a spin.

I've heard good things about Nocturama too, but I'm really into the old-school blood & guts Nick of The Firstborn is Dead, for example (the last Cave album I *really* liked was Henry's Dream), and the Boy-Howdy-I-Sure-Am-Bonkers-About-God stuff he's been cranking out just doesn't fill that gap.

But thanks for the recommendation, I'll defnitely give it a listen. :thumbsup:

[tigereye]

110. yeah, but he's likely laboring over a treatise!

hey asth. I was waiting for you to chime in....


The Ramones had a great idea. And they actually tried to expand on it - well, not like John Cage or the Art Ensemble, but... they have that pristine concept that I was talking about.


Ps - I think many bands with all female members have played better and written more interesting songs than Sleater-Kinney. I mean, I like Shonen Knife better than them. :evilgrin:

[asthmaticeog]

124. I'm with you on Sleater-Kinney.

They were a fine band, no doubt, especially toward their last two albums, but the Second-Coming-Of-Christ fawning they got puzzled me. As often as not, I'd rather listen to the Pandoras.

[tigereye]

128. so it's not just me

I usually feel like I'm about to be drawn and quartered. Maybe it's just my sister's ex who thinks that they walk on water.

(he also slavers over GBV)

[asthmaticeog]

130. GBV worship - another thing that baffles me.

Until the lineup near the end with Doug Gillard and Tim Tobias, whose output I enjoyed rather a lot, I found that band's earlier stuff totally intolerable, even in their much-praised concert appearances. Crap, methinks.

[tigereye]

138. that's a relief

I thought something was wrong with me - thank you for being my touchstone of musical sanity....

[Warren DeMontague]

30. I liked R.E.M. before it was cool, when it was cool, and now that it isn't

again.

And I'm a DEADHEAD. BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA.

[tinfoil tiaras]

49. OMG. I am the biggest R.E.M. fan EVERRRRR

:D :D

I have every single one of their CDs (exept for the new complilation which I want UBER badly) and I know ALL of the band members middle names & birthdays! :D :D

[Warren DeMontague]

75. Get the 2 disc one. The bonus material is great, with some stuff even I

had never heard.

Like "Gardening at Night" all slooooooooooowed down. Too cool.

[tinfoil tiaras]

161. EEEE...

I want it SOOOO BADDD!!! :D

[RetroLounge]

31. I am not now, nor have I ever been

Guided by Voices.

:shrug:

RL

[Warren DeMontague]

32. Saw 'em once. It was kind of a fun show...

but not really my bag. I like 35 minute songs, not 35 second ones.

[tigereye]

112. in many courts, those would be fightin' words

but not in mine. ;)

Frankly, I never really understood the attraction. But I have friends who would fully support their canonization.

[hotforteacher]

35. Death Cab For Cutie and Ben Folds Five

need to get into a knife fight, and I want to see neither of them come out alive.

[RetroLounge]

40. ...

:rofl:

RL

[driver8]

50. I'm with you on that one. I dislike them both. I think I would

rather see Death Cab For Cutie walk away from that fight than Ben Folds.

[mvd]

68. The indie people got it right about Ben Folds IMO

He's a lot better than Daniel Powter and James Blunt IMO.

I like Postal Service more than Death Cab. Possible indie no-no there.

[WCGreen]

84. Postal Service is cool...

their version of Such Great Heights is a fantastic song...

[tinfoil tiaras]

42. Sometimes, I prefer JoJo to Rilo Kiley

:D

[GOPisEvil]

44. Go directly to Hell. Do not pass "Go". Do not collect $200.

Now THAT is heresy. The Hell Express as it were.

[tinfoil tiaras]

45. Sorry.

I totally committed indie heresy there.

Not all the time though. I'm listening to Jenny Lewis & The Watson Twins right now though.... :D

I hope that makes up for it. :D

[GOPisEvil]

46. No need to apologize. I laughed. Out loud, even.

I'm listening to Scott H. Biram myself. :D

[tinfoil tiaras]

47. Awesome..

don't know who he is but....awesome anyways! :D

[GOPisEvil]

48. He's hard to describe.

Think Depression-era blues, gospel and road-house bawdiness. One-man band. He's local to the Austin area, but just signed to Bloodshot Records.

[mvd]

59. That's a good one

I could say that I like Madonna just as much as Rilo Kiley sometimes.. big bad Madonna. LOL.

[tinfoil tiaras]

99. Hahaha

[tigereye]

113. on Madonna

a PHD philosopher pal of mine ( who was also a punk) thought Madonna was the queen of deconstruction - and to be lauded for it.

My mouth hung open for quite some time after that.

[Omphaloskepsis]

97. Is a JoJo like a potato wedge?

I like ranch.. I might be getting old.. Get off my fucking lawn.

[tinfoil tiaras]

98. No, JoJo is like a pop singer

:rofl:

[HughBeaumont]

51. I'm going to commit indie guillotining!

I like maybe three REM songs total. Two of them were made after 1992.

I thought Rage Against the Machine sucked. BAD. Yes, I said SUCKED.

I can't get into Tool. Or A Perfect Circle. At all.

I never understood the worship over the following bands - Wilco, Sonic Youth, The Pixies, Throwing Muses, Glassjaw, The Breeders, The Distillers, The Replacements, Bettie Serveert, Sebadoh, any band David Lowery was in, and Weezer.

I'm like one of three people who want to pull an Elvis on the music source everytime I hear ANY Violent Femmes song.

Matthew Sweet and Evan Dando needed to be 12 sided die'd back in 1994.

Fuck Conor Oberst and his 500-music-journalist come shower.

I was bored of Jack and Blacktooth Meg White around 1998.

The Strokes are boring. They're not the next Stones, they're fucking BORING, you painted-pants wearing TWATS.

Wolfmother is jumping a bandwagon that surpassed them 600-fold five YEARS ago.

Yeah, I'm from Northeast Ohio and don't see what the big pants-shitting deal is about the Black Keys.

The Mars Volta. I really . . . REALLY wanted to like these guys, but after hearing a couple new songs, not only are they starting to paint themselves into their more-talented-than-you-and-stomping-it-into-the-ground corner . . . when I saw them live, the sound was awful, I couldn't make out any of Ced's caterwauling over Omar's ridiculously middle-heavy guitar and the noodly directionless jam session; oh dear GOD, will you just get ON with it, man?

THERE'S your blasphemy.

[ghostsofgiants]

52. Ooh, heresyriffic, especially about Conor and The Mars Volta.

[HughBeaumont]

54. You gotta admit -

Sometimes when you listen to them, doesn't it sound like a Fatal Four Way between the two ATDI (oh yeah, add THOSE El Paso weeners to the vastly overpraised list) guys, Jon Theodore (who recently jumped ship, probably couldn't take it anymore) and Ikey Lewis over who's the most impressive?

And that Bright Eyes bullshit . . . oh PLEASE with that. Seriously. America's youth cannot be this damned hard up.

[ghostsofgiants]

55. Damn you're good.

Last time I dissed a band that hard (actually, not even that hard) I was put on someone's ignoore list. I'm not petty enough to do that to you though, haha.

[HughBeaumont]

56. Cute is What I Aim For.

Yeah, that's another thing. Sentence-y band names. Fear Before the March of Flames. Between the Buried and Me. I Love You But I've Chosen Darkness. The Plot to Blow Up the Eiffel Tower. I'm just waiting for someone to name themselves after the first paragraph of a David Foster Wallace novel.

[ghostsofgiants]

57. Hahaha, I'm inclined to agree with that one actually.

Though "...And you will know us by the trail of dead" is a kickass name.

[anarch]

183. you're gonna love my new band

we're called:

I am seated in an office, surrounded by heads and bodies. My posture is consciously congruent to the shape of my hard chair. This is a cold room in University Administration, wood-walled, Remington-hung, double-windowed against the November heat, insulated from Administrative sounds by the reception area outside, at which Uncle Charles, Mr. deLint and I were lately received.

[mvd]

58. Hehe

If I did that with everyone that put down a band I like, there would be no Lounge left. I just disagree and move on, like I've done here..

[tigereye]

114. all right, lessee

Wilco, Sonic Youth, The Pixies, Throwing Muses, Glassjaw, The Breeders, The Distillers, The Replacements, Bettie Serveert, Sebadoh, any band David Lowery was in, and Weezer.

Hmmm. Can't agree about the Throwing Muses. Hersh has an amazing voice and subject matter, brain tumor not-withstanding. I still love her voice and song structure after 20 plus years. The Breeders were more fun than the Pixies to me. However, I tend to love bands with more than 1 woman in them, and always have. The Replacements were drunk, but boy was it fun! They were seminal, somehow...

Love to hear all that screaming from the Distillers. Can't help it.

[swag]

53. The Replacements turn my gut.

Dinosaur Jr. is Air Supply.

Husker Du is the New Christy Minstrels.

There are no words to describe the abomination that is Belle & Sebastien.

Pavement is Up With People!

[mitchum]

62. But "REM is Air Supply" (according to the Peach of Immortality album)

[mitchum]

64. Liz Phair has ALWAYS sucked

She's just a fucking no talent

[mvd]

65. Another opinion I disagree with completely

Now Bjork, I could agree with. Never been a fan.

[idgiehkt]

78. Bjork was great on "Life's too Good"

But she was working with four or five other people who were just as brilliant as she is. Without them she seems to ooze all over the place with no one to reel her in and I don't want to have to work that hard...life is too short.

[mvd]

80. Well, she might have talent, but..

she leaves me cold. And for winter music, I'd choose Sigur Ros.

[idgiehkt]

85. what made "Life's too Good" so great was the SugarCubes

everyone in that band was crazy. It wasn't a real band, just a bunch of performance artists. They really kept her contribution focused, and kept her 'in her place' so to speak. I hate to use that terminology but I think she shines so much better with parameters than she has solo, it's just exhausting to me to try to listen to her as a solo performer.

you can see how the music and the other band members keep her fenced in on this song, this CD is the only one of hers I can stand to listen to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU3JrXt_cPk

[mvd]

86. I'll look into it, then

I might like it - you never know.

[sendero]

164. I saw the SugarCubes..

... in Dallas in around 1986. Let me tell you, I love Bjork but I'm not surprised she ditched that bunch of losers. The "front man" spent the whole night blowing on a toy trumpet running all around the stage. I'm sure he thought it was "art", but it looked like a toddler throwing a tantrum (they're looking/listening to Bjork instead of me!) to me.

Bjork's best work came well after she dumped that bunch of clowns, IMHO :)

[idgiehkt]

172. wow.

that's interesting. I really liked them and wish they'd stayed together. I guess different strokes for different folks. I've always wanted to date a Bjork fan so I could be around them when they were listening to her stuff and they could kind of walk me through why they thought it was so great. Of course, my brother tried to do that for me with jazz and that didn't work, either.

[idgiehkt]

77. oh god...call 911

I just love her. And this hurts so coming from you. I mean, she sings about cunnilingus and being a total slut better than anyone, and I should know because those are my favorite subjects for songs. Please, Mitchum, reconsider? These are good songs, but I couldn't find any of the profane ones on youtube, naturally:

"Stratford on Guy", or how to get stoned without smoking anything:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSP-zBYon4E

"Alice Springs", this gives me chills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQdcLJgjz-E

I think her talent lies in her songwriting and expressing things about female sexuality that no one else ever came close to...who else had the balls to say "I am all a-cunt in spring, you can rend me by the hour" or "I'll fuck you til your dick is blue"? Maybe in punk, but not as a folk-singer, not without irony, like she does. I think she was stupendously brave on 'Exile in Guyville' and I don't know if anyone has really done that since. It's one thing to to it with a rock band behind you but her doing it alone took some cojones.

[tigereye]

117. thank you!

that is what I wanted to say, but you already did!

[mitchum]

154. "It should be about fuck you, not fuck me" Chrissie Hynde...

Now, Hynde didn't say this in reference to Phair's work, but I do think it is applicable and true. I've always found Phair's lyrics (because there's not really much one can say about the music) to be far more about titillation than provocation. Hey, I have nothing against "total sluts" (they have brought me much pleasure), but I'm not going to bestow the label of lyrical genius upon her. But that's just my opinion.

[idgiehkt]

159. now, that's just mean

I mean, is this Chrissie Hyde the pathetic, desperate waitress in "Brass in Pocket" we're talking about? Come on. If that's not wanting to be fucked, I don't know what is ("gonna make you, make you, make you notice"...and I do I love the Pretenders). Wonder if this is why they waited so long to release Elvis' "A Little Less Conversation"; isn't that whole song just saying shut up and fuck me? Did Liz Phair pave the way for Elvis in this case? Liz Phair is everywhere!

I think it is such a mistake to say these lyrics are about titillation...you're invalidating the subject's point of view, a point of view which wasn't even really explicitly expressed in a lot of ways until she came along. What would Madonna be without MTV and her visual images? Her songs really didn't even express the sexuality that she was trying to convey so much as her videos did. It took Liz to put it into actual words. Just because a woman says "fuck me" and a man finds it titillating doesn't mean that the woman doesn't have a valid desire to be fucked and a valid right to express it, and in Phair's case, a valid right to make that expression into art, choosing what words, however crude, she feels best convey her message.

But thanks for responding. I don't get down on my knees for just anyone, lol.

[sendero]

165. Hmmm...

... I guess folks can take song lyrics in any number of ways. "Brass in Pocket" sounds like a song from a woman who is confident, sees something/someone interesting and is going for it. Nothing pathetic about it, in a woman or a man :)

I love Ms. Hynde, even if she said Eno was a crazy pervert (or somesuch) back in her "rock journalist" days, and even if she did dump Ray Davies :)

[idgiehkt]

170. I was talking about how she characterized the song in the video.

It's a pretty pathetic characterization if you ask me and it looks like Hynde is trying to portray it this way for whatever reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2OpNoT8rbk

I love Chrissie too. I think "Middle of the Road" is one of the greatest political rock songs ever written. I just don't think, with that video to Brass in Pocket out there, she has a leg to stand on with that quote.

[tigereye]

116. listen to her oldest stuff

she has great and scary and subversive things to say. I could do without the fluff image of late, but I still think she's cool.

[idgiehkt]

129. she is

I'm hoping that soon she will come full circle and start writing the subversive things again once she feels her musical licks are polished enough but it just may be that she's grown out of that sexual angst or something. Hope not.

[mitchum]

155. I found her old work to just be titillation over generic indie rock...

much like her current Hot White Mom schtick is just titillation over generic dance pop.

[idgiehkt]

160. can't you just kick back

and enjoy it?

:rofl:

sorry. I just think it was valid what she did. I remember reading a hilarious review of "Exile in Guyville" by a music critic who said he thought 'Glory' was a completely pointless song and he couldn't get the meaning of it, so when his girlfriend came in the room he just looked at her and asked 'what? is this song about' and he said her mouth dropped open and she looked at him and rolled her eyes. I mean, "he's got a really, big tongue, it rolls way out...". It was in that moment of seeing his girlfriend's expression that he got how literal it was and why it's value might not be obvious from his perspective. It's a turn on, like alot of sexuality in music, but she really filled a void there; plus she characterizes the isolation that women feel as a result of the male/female game-playing, especially on songs like "Fuck and Run".

[mitchum]

163. Okay, those are valid arguments for her (sub)cultural validity...

But I still will not buy the argument that she is a gifted lyricist/artist. Polemicist, maybe...
If she were as provocative and clever as her champions claim, she would have called it cunt rock (as opposed to cock rock)
She never came up with an unique or arresting lyrical image. It's all "I"..."you"..."insert dirty word here"..."I"...
To me, it was just one theme over and over and over again.
Lou Reed wrote and sang about more than just hitting up. And in a far more artful way. I'm sorry, he's the gold standard I use for evaluating provocative lyricists dealing with uncomfortable subject matter.

As I said this is merely my take on Ms Phair. Can we still be friends? :)

[idgiehkt]

169. But of course.

But I think that what she did by taking a sledgehammer to the brick wall of coy disingenuousness with regard to female sexuality was long overdue. It needed to be talked about bluntly, it needed to have the back-alley words used to describe it, it needed to have that glass shattered, if only just that one time in history. The only other people doing this as solo artists were women like Diamanda Galas and Karen Finley and they used their bodies alot of the time rather than just relying on the music (Diamanda's music is indecipherable to me, anyway and Finley's always seems to have a theme of victimization running through it, which really needed to be separated from sexuality)...to my knowledge there is no rape theme on any of Phair's songs on that album, as least as far as I remember, which is such a breath of fresh air.


I think her lyrics stand out especially when you compare them to someone like Madonna who for all her acclaim only ever said "like a virgin/touched for the very first time...". I mean, how lame is that, really. I guess I just like bluntness, especially having grown up in the church, and I know a lot of women feel this way about Phair's lyrics and really appreciated that someone finally said the shit out loud.

I think Stratford-on-Guy, that first youtube link I posted, is chock full of unique and arresting lyrical images, that's why I linked it because it's a poem in it's own right and I was stunned when I listened to it the first time because of some of her metaphors. Just pulling some from memory: 'the earth looked like it was lit from within, like a poorly assembled electrical ball'/ 'we had on our headphones along with those eyes that you get when your circumstance is movie-size'...to me that is just fantastic writing, but I'm a poetry fanatic even more than I am a music fan. Glory has some interesting word choices in it too. I personally think the line "I am all a-cunt in spring, you can rend me by the hour' is very beautiful, even though the C-word is distracting, but kudos to her for leaving it in since it's so honest.

Okay, I'll stop now. Peace. :hi:

oh, p.s. I don't think that label 'cunt' rock would have served anyone since it's mainly known as insult and since it'd have been censored. Pussy rock would have been more accurate, but I think the label 'indie' works fine for the time it was in.

[mitchum]

171. But she could have "re-appropriated" the "forbidden word".,..

but she just wasn't as clever as NWA.
Okay, I'LL stop...:)

[tigereye]

180. what a wonderful analysis! just for this quote alone!

"But I think that what she did by taking a sledgehammer to the brick wall of coy disingenuousness with regard to female sexuality was long overdue."


You have touched on so many points that I have made, mostly to male rocker peers, over the years. It also touches on the discomfort and downright inability that many guys have to respect honest female sexuality instead of slotting it into that awful slut/Madonna (hmmm, maybe that's why one of my PHD pals thought Madonna the queen of dsconstruction!) dichotomy. It's tedious. It's exasperating. And it's crap.

Wish we could have lunch! It's always nice to know that there are plenty of us who have strong thoughts on this matter. :hi:

[idgiehkt]

181. Thanks.

There is a disconnect going on and it's related to the shortage of writers like Phair. I think people who are used to being subject don't really know how to interpret being object except to maybe translate it into titillation as if somehow that in itself is innately dishonest, which is kind of a sad commentary. Just because it causes arousal on the part of the object doesn't meant it's false; I mean, when you think about it, wouldn't one want it to be true? I would.

On the other hand I guess there is a shortage of people like her out there because she broke the rules, and since men can't really do this and get away with it (because it would probably be interpreted as assaultive speech) women feel they have to stay within some parameters too I guess. But I'm glad she did what she did, and I wish she'd have kept on doing it.

Re that madonna/whore thing...that kind of sucks. It's almost as if they can't believe or don't want to believe a woman could really feel this way and wan't to express it as art; the implication is that if she does she's somehow deviant from 'normal'. I understand alot that is cultural conditioning but still it kind of makes me think they might feel that sexuality is a province that men bring women into and if you look at the anatomy of heterosexual sex, exactly the oppostite is true...plus it totally whites out homosexual relationships that are outside of those gender constructs. Same shit, different day...

[tigereye]

192. you talk like a deconstructionist

or a philosopher. ;)

There are so many women artists - musicians, writers, painters, etc. who have explored this territory: Joan Jett, Hynde, Joplin, Judy Chicago, Ono, Sue Coe, Cindy Sherman, Annie Sprinkle and many others - however, I still think they tend to be marginalized as "women artists."

It's interesting as well, since I recently attended a great museum show here about the NY art scene, which showcased many of the women artists-musical and otherwise - whom I mentioned from the punk era, and for the first time (well, in the punk contxt, anyway) they were exploring some of these issues such as sexuality in a way that had previously been the purview of men. Ironically, there was also a show of women artists (called the F word) that explored new and older works. Although, one could still argue that the whole concept of a separate section or exhibit for women only reinforces some aspects of that marginilization.

[swag]

87. I must know you.

Or have a tangential connection to you.

I lived in DC from 83 to 92.

Have we already started there?

[swag]

88. I must know you.

Or have a tangential connection to you.

I lived in DC from 83 to 92.

Have we already started there?

[mitchum]

152. Unfortunately, I don't think we know one another, but I bet...

we do know some of the same people

[mvd]

63. Blasphemy!

I love B&S and also like the Replacements. :hi:

[swag]

89. I'm glad I have fulfilled the thread's purpose.

Thanks for smiley waving.

[ghostsofgiants]

72. I'm bullish on Husker Du, they're going places.

[swag]

90. I don't think you're being sincere.

[ghostsofgiants]

91. They're number 32 on my last.fm "Overall Top Artists" list...

"Zen Arcade" has actually had significant rotation on my ipod whilst walking around campus lately.

[swag]

92. I wish I had an iPod.

I don't know. Maybe I don't.

Enjoy your music.

[ghostsofgiants]

94. It beats lugging a cd player around...

But I have my share of complaints about it, ahah.

[sendero]

166. Screw Ipods..

... for $35 you can buy a 512-meg cheapie mp3 player, load 8 albums on it and enjoy.

And when something happens to it, you can buy another!

[dolo amber]

111. You're Air Supply

:grr:

But yeah, Pavement are les bonnes poires d'anus d'âne.

[swag]

122. No, YOU'RE Air Supply!

[swag]

132. No, YOU'RE Air Supply!

[dolo amber]

134. No, I'm Iron Man

Dork. :eyes:

[swag]

135. I am Damo Suzuki

Hole.

[dolo amber]

136. I am, I said

/Jewish Elvis

[swag]

137. You're just a cockeyed optimist.

[tigereye]

115. you don't like the mats!

:cry: They were sure drunk and stupid. But it was fun!

[swag]

123. Oh, see, I wasn't there!

[jane_pippin]

66. I'm glad Sleater-Kinney is now defunct

I've never, ever liked them. In fact, I find them unlistenable. And I don't like Le Tigre either. (Bikini Kill's another story though.)

Oooh, I've not only committed indie heresy, but indie-grrrl band heresy. Oh, and I hate the "word" "grrrl" also. It's a three-fer!

[mvd]

67. Not a big Le Tigre fan

But loved S-K.

[jane_pippin]

69. I just couldn't get into either of them.

I think I can see why people like them--they're fun, clever, catchy, etc--but they just didn't do it for me.

[mvd]

70. That happens

I understand. I've had the same thing happen with some bands/artists.

[tigereye]

118. prefer Le Tigre and BK to Sleater-Kinney

I preceded the grrrl thing - so I was never fond of it. I like what they did, but not what they were called! :rofl:

[flvegan]

71. Fat Wreck Chords is a sellout label.

Shameful bunch of hacks.

[tigereye]

151. ok. spill the dirt

they seem to put out folks no one else would and it's hard to argue with their politics....

[flvegan]

156. It's heresy.

Fat Mike and his label rules. Shit, they brought me Rise Against.

[tigereye]

177. ah, just like me to forget the purpose of the thread

THAT I STARTED. ;)

since there has been some actual dirt posted on here, I thought you had somethin. I love those guys. NoFx brought back my faith in punk.

[mvd]

73. OK, one more for the night

Basic one - I'm a pop fan. To some, wouldn't matter how much indie I like.

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. Note to Death Cab for Cutie, the Arcade Fire, & EVERY OTHER BAND...

that sounds like a lame, subpar Smiths imitation with a vocalist who sounds like he has anti-testosterone injections three times a week (this seems to be approximately 50-75% of what's considered 'indie rock'): you need to go the fuck away. We already HAD the Smiths, twenty years ago. We do not need you; you are redundant, and you suck.

[WCGreen]

79. The Smiths were pretty lame...

I mean, come on Girlfriend in a Coma...

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. I actually like the Mojo Nixon cover of that better than the original...

(that probably counts as indie heresy, too)

[WCGreen]

82. Mojo Nixon is cool.....

I really liked the Church and Midnight Oil back from when the Smiths were making boys cry....

[tigereye]

119. no, no it doesn't!

I fully agree. Long live Mojo.

[nickgutierrez]

95. I can't stand Interpol.

I just can't.

[njdemocrat106]

96. Bjork sings like a cat in heat having a seizure

Radiohead, though not a terrible band by any means, has been known to cure a few insomniacs.

[Cathyclysmic]

101. Peaches- I don't get it.

[leftofthedial]

106. Oasis would have been the greatest indie band ever

they had their finger on the pulse of hip

[MrCoffee]

109. Clap Your Hands Say What?

[tigereye]

120. wow

air your dirty music laundry! I love it!

[HughBeaumont]

127. Where the living HELL is RKZ?

I think he has enough anti-hipster venom in him to poison Pitchfork Media!

[tigereye]

139. studying, I suspect

[leeroysphitz]

131. I only just his week started listening to The Pixies.

Spent the entire 1990s ignoring them...

[swag]

133. Doolittle was a good record.

The rest was pure shit.

I'm not sure if this is heresy or not.

Mods, delete my post if this wasn't heresy.

[sendero]

167. I agree..

... and Doolittle only had about 3 great songs on it :)

This monkey's gone to heaven.

[idgiehkt]

149. me too

and throwing muses.

maybe now the coast is clear, lol.

[Gatchaman]

153. Most "independent" music is crap!

Hows THAT for heresy?

[driver8]

157. I don't get the whole "Radiohead thing"...

I have tried and tried to like these guys, I really have. It has all been in vain, however, because these guys do nothing for me.

What am I not getting? I don't want to be different...I want to like Radiohead!

[leftofthedial]

158. the indie movement

is what is wrong with the music industry

and also is what is right about the music industry


but about 95% wrong and only 5% right, which 5% more than the non-indies have mustered lately.

[mitchum]

162. Courtney was the real talent in THAT marriage

I don't really think that. Just playing at heresy...

[MrCoffee]

190. This is the hands-down champ.

[mitchum]

191. Thanks. I was gonna give someone else the chance to say it...

but after 180 something posts without it being said, I just went for it :)

[tigereye]

195. ding ding ding

we have a winner!

(although there are folks that may agree with you....)

[XemaSab]

168. Modest Mouse and Radiohead are teh suck

b/c they remind me of this dude I used to go out with. :(

[Left Is Write]

173. Umm...I don't think I ever would have been accepted...

at alt.indie!

:D

[derby378]

174. Skinny Puppy is still cool, but it was cooler when Dwayne was around

RIP, Dwayne R. Goettel.

[enigmatic]

176. Daydream Nation was a fantastic record

But it's the only Sonic Youth record I could listen to: I prefer Yo La Tengo, too.

Hell, I think Ira's a better guitar player than Thurston Moore too, so I'll use that as my heresay...

[mitchum]

193. Hell, my little sister is a better guitarplayer than Thurston Moore...

Lee Renaldo is the the real guitar talent in SY. Moore's real talent lies in promotion and networking. I guess you can call that a talent.
Daydream Nation is a fantastic record. Some parts of Evol aren't too bad either.

[tigereye]

196. sounds like I really wasn't committing heresy, then

maybe the opposite of what I/we think is the indie trend IS ACTUALLY NOT TRUE! (holy smokes, batman!)

[HuskerDU]

179. The reformed New York Dolls, featuring 2 'real' members and

running on fumes is 10 X better than any of the 'indie' crap of the past 10 years.

Who should be more embarassed?

[RedStateShame]

182. Death Cab for Cutie and Dismemberment Plan should trade places...

...in regards to "broken up and not likely to reunite" and "played WAY too damn much."

[billyskank]

184. I fucking LOVE Huey Lewis And The News

and that's no joke.

Seriously, if you dislike something just because it doesn't fit your lifestyle, you don't have a life. You're a slave to a system.

[RedStateShame]

185. Bateman? Is that you?

[billyskank]

186. Never heard of him

[RedStateShame]

187. It's from "American Psycho"

[billyskank]

188. Thanks. Haven't read it.

[idgiehkt]

189. the movie is twisted beyond belief, but it's worth it just to watch

him deconstruct Phil Collins. I mean, it's absolutely hysterical. That is one of the darkest movies I've ever seen. I never read the book because "Less Than Zero" was completely twisted, just sickeningly so, expecially the ending (had nothing to do with the way the movie ended) but the movie I would say is worth it, for the political/class commentary it makes if nothing else. It's so funny when he's asked what he does for a living (mergers and acquisitions) and he says "murders and executions" and no one even catches it.