Most misogynist movie you've seen?

[Radical Activist]

I recently saw the documentary Crumb about cartoonist Robert Crumb. The films suggests he has some misogynist, hostile views toward women that probably stem from his abusive upbringing and adolescent experiences. It sparked a conversation between me and a friend about misogyny in popular culture and films.

I'm wondering what people think are the most misogynist movies they have seen. I did a google search on the subject and found that my favorite comedy movie of the summer "My Super Ex-girlfriend" was described as being misogynistic. I'm not sure what my answer to the question is.
I'm especially interested in hearing what women view as the most anti-women movie they've seen.

[MsAnthropy]

1. Tin Men

http://imdb.com/title/tt0094155/

GRRRRRR :grr:

[Radical Activist]

3. Never heard of it

The IMDB reviewers like it. :shrug:

[speedoo]

10. Well I can see your point, I guess.

But there are certainly other ways to view the film. I liked it a lot, and to me the Richard Dreyfus character (who is probably the target of your dislike) was the certainly the villain. It's not like the film portrayed his womanizing in any kind of positive light.

Did you have a similar reaction to "Diner"?

[MsAnthropy]

26. Definitely

although Diner had a different tone and feel to it.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

2. Probably Sin City or anything by Neil La Bute

[Fountain79]

102. Sin City?

It seemed like there were plenty of strong female roles in that movie, while many of them happened to be hookers, still strong roles.

[pitohui]

109. oh come on

so there was a little something in the movie for the guy who likes the amazon/dominatrix type as well as for the dude who prefers to cut the heads off the ladies and just do his thing with their headless bodies...

god, that had to be just about the worst movie ever, or if there is a worse one, i'm glad i have not seen it

[Fountain79]

115. You are casting judgments on a movie....

you haven't seen?

[pitohui]

153. i've obviously seen sin city , fountain

i merely wish i had not

[Orrex]

124. But the decapitator was hardly a role model

He was portrayed from start to finish as a monster and a creep. And, across the board, the men in the film who abused women were dealt with most severely.

Roark Jr.: Ear shot of, genitals shot off, genitals restored and later torn off again by hand

Kevin: dismembered alive and fed to a wolf

Cardinal Roark: Tortured to death by hand

Jack: Hand cut off, all but killed by a damaged handgun, throat slashed, dismembered (his buddies were similarly killed)

Manute: shot to death in a carefully conceived gantlet-trap

Women killed?

The woman in the opening vignette: Killed by an assassin that she hired. Call it a suicide.

Goldie: And her death brought about the downfall of Cardinal Roark, so it's a form of noble, if unwilling, sacrfice. It could even be argued that she chose Marv because she suspected that he'd avenge her death.

Lucille: Hand cut off (and eaten), and she was shot to death in a field. Not much to redeem her death, I agree.

Nancy: Kidnapped as a girl and again later as a woman, tortured, and on-the-scene when her torturer is killed. Also "roughed up" off-camera, according to Marv. And see note below.

Shellie: Assaulted and threatened with rape by Jack & Co. Kind of a damsel in distress, to be sure, and her acting was the absolute low-point of the movie. Horrible, horrible, horrible. Almost unwatchable.

Several anonymous hookers: Killed almost as afterthoughts, but no more readily than a dozen or so equally anonymous male characters.

The women, even the strong women, are strippers and prostitutes. But two of the male protagonists are brutal thugs who just happen to err on the side of (their notion of) justice. Hartigan is a semi-noble figure, but even he contributes to the misogyny inherent in Nancy's character.

Physically, the most powerful character is Miho; she's fearless, capable, and highly skilled at defending herself and others. She took out five men with minimal effort, and in the comic itself she beat Manute in combat.

Nancy, however, is a big problem. In painting her as strong-despite-her-trauma, Miller also portrayed her as inescapably hung up on Hartigan-as-rescuer. She spends at least eight years in love with a man many decades her senior, and her teen years are put on hold or forfeited altogether for the sake of this impossible (and, frankly, creepy) romance-from-afar. She becomes little more than a channel for Hartigan's vengeance.

On the plus side, no woman is protrayed as evil, with the possible exception of Alexis Blidell (can't remember her character's name), and her evil is a matter of betrayal rather than calculated torture and/or murder.

Overall, the film isn't much more misogynistic than it is misanthropic. We may quibble about the implications of prostitutes as the heroic female figures, but then we also need to address the problem of uncompromising brutes as the heroic male figures, too.

[CBHagman]

143. Well, I guess that solves my Netflix queue dilemma, Orrex.

People want to SEE those things? And pay for it?

I might become a lighthouse keeper, at this rate.

[pitohui]

154. orrex, i'll accept this argument

you are right, the movie isn't misogynist, it is indeed misanthropic

it's just an ugly and stomach-churning viewpoint of humanity and i suspect my feelings were colored by the amount of time i spent hiding behind my hands

[Benfea]

164. Why are you surprised?

The title alone should be enough to tell you that it is an examination of the worst aspects of humanity.

[Orrex]

171. That's about the size of it

It's no celebration of the human condition, that's for sure. It's kind of a gonzo-noir sort of piece, of which certain aspects are impressive (enjoyable?) even if the overall effect is unpalatable.

[WCGreen]

157. Good summation .....

I never thought Sin City was misogynistic...

Hell most of Julie Roberts movies are more misogynistic in the sense they perpetuate female archetypes that go against the modern perception of equality and self reliance...

[Orrex]

172. Julia Roberts is among the worst of the worst

Pretty Woman helped to usher in a whole new era of Cinderalla myth-films. If I see one more rehash of the "you can be a princess, too" meme I'm going to vomit.

[peekaloo]

121. My first thought was 'Your Friends and Neighbors'.

:-(

[NashVegas]

162. La Bute's An Interesting Case

On the surface his films appear *very* misogynist. But if you look closely at "Company of Men," the most vilified, it's the characters who are misogynists, and they don't come off well at all. Meanwhile, their supposed victim comes off as being stronger than either had imagined.

I think LaBute movies give a pretty good run down of the cruelty of sexual politics, in general.

[CBHagman]

4. Pretty Woman, for starters.

Yes, yes, I know there a lot of people, including a good many women, who regard it as a nice romantic comedy about the redemptive power of love. :eyes: But I agree with Jay Carr, who termed it a "self-oblivious piece of woman-bashing," if I recall correctly. Or as a friend of mine put it, the film puts forth the notion that women are only good for two things, and one of them is shopping. And she didn't put it that delicately, either.

I hate that movie.

[Radical Activist]

6. OK

I wouldn't have thought of Pretty Woman but I see your point. I've never been a big fan of the movie so I've never thought about it much.
Although I wonder if some women like it because it gives the idea that no matter how "sexually liberated" she is while she's single that she can still end up marrying the handsome rich guy? Sort of an escape or rejection of the Madonna/whore complex.

[CBHagman]

77. A lot of it's just the money angle.

As at least a couple of reviewers pointed out, the movie puts a rather glossy sheen on the fact that the prostitute has to be purchased and then made over, generally by men, one avuncular (the hotel manager) and one ruthless (a corporate raider). And it's money that allows the prostitute to humiliate the (female) store clerks who were hostile to her when she started out on her shopping spree.

Like a lot of movies of this sort (Notting Hill is another) fame, money, power, and good looks -- or appearances, in general -- are what count.

And the prostitute with a heart of gold was an old stereotype even before Belle Watling gave her money to Miss Melanie for the hospital in Gone with the Wind. "The Outcasts of Poker Flat," anyone?

[YankeyMCC]

23. Thank you!

Many of the woman in my life enjoy that movie and I just don't get how they can Not be offended by that movie. :shrug:

[LostinVA]

79. Agreed

[fudge stripe cookays]

122. Cue Ellen Cleghorne....

"She was a ho! Julia Roberts was a ho."

[Common Sense Party]

155. Yup. Deplorable movie. nt

[Deep13]

5. Is it misogynistic if it presents misogynism in a bad light?

I'm thinking of that Helen Mirrem movie, the Cook the Thief His Wife and Her Lover if I have the name right.

[LostinVA]

80. No, not to me

[kwassa]

7. In the Company of Men

from Janet Maslin's review in the New York Times:

http://movies2.nytimes.com/mem/movies/review.html?_r=1&title1=&title2=In%20The%20Company%20Of%20Men%20%28Movie%29%20%20&reviewer=Janet%20Maslin&v_id=154545&pdate=19970328&partner=Rotten%20Tomatoes&oref=slogin

"Chad's brainstorm, which turns ''In the Company of Men'' into a fascinating, divisive conversation piece, is this: Why not pick out a particularly susceptible woman, then flatter her, hoodwink her and make her suffer? In a chilling monologue that locates the film squarely in Mametland, Chad lays out this plan for a milder-mannered colleague named Howard (Matt Malloy), who like Chad feels that women have hurt him and deserve some payback. Howard is both alarmed and secretly excited by his friend's mega-macho thinking.

The dialogue here is stunningly blunt. Chad outlines his plan, concluding: ''And then one day, out goes the rug and us pulling it hard. And Jill, she just comes tumbling after.'' He smiles to himself when considering the consequences: ''Trust me, she'll be reaching for the sleeping pills in a week. And we'll be laughing about this till we are very old men.'' And he hints at the deep frustration that fuels his anger. When life brings new disappointments, he tells Howard, at least each of the two men will be able to say, ''They never got me like we got her.''

[Dora]

8. That movie was very disturbing. n/t

[Tyrone Slothrop]

34. As I posted upthread, anything by Neil La Bute

is super-misogynistic.

Perhaps something to do with his Mormon upbringing???

[Radical Activist]

46. Interesting

I don't think I've seen any of his movies. Mormonism certainly has an odd reverence/respect for women and motherhood combined with patronizing restrictions on the role women should play in church and society. That's a whole other touchy subject though.

[NashVegas]

163. I Think People Misunderstand This Movie

The two male characters are pigs, and LaBute shows how misogyny hurts *both* men and women. Christine isn't the only person who gets played by Chad, Howard does, too, as is shown in the end. And far from reaching for her sleeping pills, Christine tells Howard, the "nice" guy, to take a hike when he admits he's in love with her. The reasons Chad gives at the beginning for wanting to drag a woman through crap are a complete lie, as Howard finds out in the final scene.

Here's what Ebert said in his review:

"Indeed, if the movie were only about what Chad and Howard do to Christine and how she reacts, it would be too easy, a one-note attack on these men as sadistic predators. The movie deals with much more and it cuts deeper, and by the end we see it's about a whole system of values in which men as well as women are victims, and monstrous selfishness is held up as the greatest good."

[MamaBear]

9. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

The women were an abusive mother, Nurse Ratched, and the hookers with hearts of gold.


:grr:

[LynneSin]

11. Doesn't that define most women

We're either a mother, a psychotic nurse or a hooker with a heart of gold

Ok that was my bad joke of the day. As a woman, even I knew it sucked

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Nurse Ratched is one of the greatest literary villains of all time.

Also, if memory serves me correctly, the professor has some major problems with his wife in the book.

[MamaBear]

18. The book was even worse

It was a great book, but it exposed maybe more than Kesey intended. Not only were all the women controlling, evil, wicked or weak (or all-giving); the men's problems all came down to: if only she could have been (like the hookers). Men would be happy if women were just different.

That book should have a warning label.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Oh, I don't think Kesey was a misogynist

... if that's what you're suggesting.

The book was about male psychiatric patients. It's a bit logical to assume that some of them would have problems with women, isn't it?

Disagree on the warning label.

[MamaBear]

22. I let him off the hook only because

it was the Freudian "blame-Mommy" era. It's not that some of the men had problems probably caused by women: all of them did, except the chief. A book that well written can and will blind you to that aspect.

I didn't get it until I read it as part of a literature course in which all the novels were centered around breakdowns/mental illness/institutions. It was a pretty depressing course, actually.

[WindRavenX]

31. IIRC the book was written from Chief's POV

therefore, it makes sense that there is extremely hostility to women in the book.

No book should ever have a warning sticker. Period.

[CBGLuthier]

15. And the hero was a rapist

Statutory rapist anyway.

[begin_within]

17. Nurse Ratchet represents THE ESTABLISHMENT, not women!!!!!

The entire story is an allegory. Nurse Ratchet respresents the establishment in power, with the full force of authority and the enforcment to back it up. It's just coincidental that that character happens to be a woman. I don't see it as misogynist at all. Randall McMurphy represents the individual, who has no power except his own indomitable will, and is at the mercy of the establishment. This is very clear in the novel, however, it is completely lost in the movie version. The movie is nothing but a cheap comic-book-ization of the novel. It's essential to read the novel to get the point of the story. Also the Indian guy (Chief Broom) is the narrator of the book, and his progress from paranoid schizophrenic at the beginning to sane and free individual at the end is a major theme. The movie fails to capture any of the main points of the book...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Thank you!

:applause:

[idgiehkt]

27. never read the book

but I find that really interesting that the 'establishment' would be represented by a female since women have traditionally held little power in it. How very odd, there's something more allegorical and deeper to that, especially the part about her breasts and being revealed as woman i.e. she was really trying to be something other than what she was, like she really shouldn't have held power. God I wish this stuff was deconstructed better. I mean, why are ships, countries, referred to as female. There just must be some big allegorical looming female in the mind of men that culture hasn't brought out into the light and dealt with yet...of course there is since in childhood the female does have power over men, in the form of their mother. It's completely a devalued phase but I think it's very significant and should be looked at more since women pay for it every day.

[begin_within]

61. It's too bad we can't ask Ken Kesey, since a lot of the book was based on

his own experiences working in a mental hospital. Maybe there was an actual person he based Nurse Ratchet on, so that's why he made her a main character rather than some male nurse or doctor. Unfortunately Mr. Kesey passed away several years ago so it's up to scholars to dig through his papers to find out answers to things like this.

[Susang]

158. He was on LSD while writing the novel

When I was in college, I attended a lecture given by Kesey. In that lecture, he basically said he was tripping most of the time he was writing Cuckoo's Nest. He felt LSD was the only way he could understand what it was really like to be schizophrenic.

This was the only verification I could find of that comment at 3:00AM. ;-)

Kesey’s interest in altered consciousness led him to accept a position in a mental hospital. While the job allowed him ample opportunity to write uninterrupted, it also introduced him to several individuals who would serve as models for characters in One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest. Kesey also ingested LSD (called “tripping”) while interviewing the patients in order to gain insight into their altered perceptions of the world. He even convinced a friend to administer electroshock therapy to ensure an accurate depiction in his novel.

Cuckoo’s Nest conveys Kesey’s interest in altered consciousness, particularly in the voice of the narrator, Chief Bromden. The paranoid sections of the novel where Chief discusses his belief that the hospital where he stays is actually an emasculating factory for a larger Combine that represses individuality were largely written while Kesey was under the influence of mind-altering substances.
http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/cliffsnotes/one_flew_over_the_cuckoos_nest/1.html

[Bucky]

99. Then don't see the play. The stage version of Cuckoo's Nest is far worse

I could barely sit thru it. You can't justify his attempts at rape by saying "She represents the establishment." Rape is not a form of fighting back. It was clearly the product of an unbalanced mind.

[idgiehkt]

127. which kind of underscores my belief

that her crime was holding power the protagonist (and/or author) didn't beleive she had any right to possess. I think this is the root motivation for rape, it seems more a psychological thing than a sexual thing. Maybe some conflict in the male mind at having been so dominated by females as a child and then not being able to reconcile feeling fear of them in adulthood when the male is so much bigger and stronger than they are, because fear of things that happened in childhood never leaves or changes much even though we grown up. There is something to this, I just don't know what it is...the male attempting to take the female power away by making her a sexual object which he feels is her only rightful place and which is the only arena in which he feels dominant. It's just a fucked up fetishization and it doesn't work otherwise he'd never have ended up in the bin to begin with.

[Catchawave]

12. She-Devil

as only Roseanne can deliver this kind of revenge :evilgrin:

[CBGLuthier]

16. Horrible remake of an excellent british miniseries

I honestly feel that the original is as good as the remake was bad.

[dback]

14. Showgirls

I was stunned when I saw Elizabeth Berkley in "Roger Dodger" and Gina Gershon in "Bound," and discovered that they could really act. Nothing in "Showgirls" gave any indication as such, and the "characters" they were playing were insults to women everywhere. It was enjoyable trash for about an hour and a half, then there's a completely gratuitous rape scene, followed by a ridiculous ass-kicking scene on the part of our (topless!) heroine. By that point, it was just ugly and loathesome.

I don't even want to think about the psychosexual proclivities of Joe Ezterhas, Paul Verhoven, and the studio execs who signed off on this film. Well, at least there was Kyle MacLaughlin's ass.

[HEyHEY]

20. The joy luck club

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Oh, god, that's a terrible movie.

Oh, boo hoo. She killed her baby. I feel so sorry for her.

:eyes:

The only good scene in that movie was when the dumb American boyfriend dumps salt on his mother-in-laws dinner. That was good for a laugh.

[idgiehkt]

41. I think that's a different category

because the book, I assumed, was a fictionalized account of the lives of the author's mother and friends under an oppressive system. It was a harrowing movie, but I assumed every bit of it was just the truth, even the infanticide which I can see happening so easily.

[LostinVA]

81. I see it as completely the opposite... huh

[REP]

24. Fatal Attraction

Childless single professional women = crazy, murderous predators out to destroy The Family.

[hfojvt]

29. that reminds me of one that I forgot

the Michael Crichton movie with Michael Douglas and Demi Moore where she sexually harrasses him at work. What was that called?

[Richardo]

30. Disclosure.

I liked the book, have not seen the movie.

[idgiehkt]

39. that book needs it's own thread

I seem to remember reading it, I must have, back in the time when I read obsessively because I know the plot but I never saw the movie. I'd love to hear what men here think of that book and how many men here feel they've been sexually harassed.

[Radical Activist]

52. I think the book

was transparently about men's fear of being accused of sexual harassment, usually because they have sexually harassed female co-workers. I'm sure men have been sexually harassed in the workplace, and that's a fair thing to talk about, but that book was more like a defense mechanism for those feeling like they might be guilty. It was saying, "hey it can happen to men too and they can be unfairly persecuted" in the same way as conservatives say, "hey Clinton did it too so its ok for Bush to be an incompetent ass."

I suppose one bright spot is when the man's assistant testifies against him about things he had done that he didn't realize had offended her and he later apologizes. It at least shows growth and represents something a lot of men had to come to terms with in the 80's and 90's.

[idgiehkt]

56. is it a possible scenario?

I wish someone would start a thread on it...I really don't want to. Because what I got from the book was that he really loved his wife and that he was in pain about the situation. It could easily happen, couldn't it? Am I just naive? I mean if the man is in a vulnerable position on his job, and she makes demands...what would one do. I am way out of range here because I know next to nothing about how men think and stuff, but when I read the book I found it totally believable but it's been years. I don't remember being offended by it.

[Radical Activist]

58. well

it has never happened to me. I suppose it is possible but it has to be pretty unlikely. Most women in our society aren't sexually aggressive toward men and even those who are usually keep it to themselves when rejected.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

135. One reveiwer pointed out that the whole plot is a crock, because

a subordinate propositioning a boss is not sexual harrassment under the law; it's just a very dumb thing to do.

[idgiehkt]

35. she was such a classic borderline

I was awed at the portrayal of her in that movie and I thought it was a damn shame not to go into her history more. I felt as if the movie exploited her character in the same way that she felt the male protagonist exploited her sexually. I found it very shallow that they used her as a symbol for something in his/our mind rather than trying to understand why she behaved the way she did. She was such an interesting character. There are religious and moral overtones in that movie that kinda make you want to puke. I interpreted it more as a cautionary tale directed at men regarding infidelity than as any comment on female professionals.

Yes, the moral tone was far more offensive to me than anything implied about her career/lifestyle choices, I kind of missed that part.

It's strange because in my mind it really is her story. I don't know why I look at it that way but I do. Whatever happens on his end after he becomes involved with her is almost irrelevant even though that is most of the plot. I guess for me just portraying her as 'some crazy' he hooked up with without deliniating why she had the reactions she did kind of missed the point. Most married men that cheat, just cheat, feel bad, fess up or don't fess up, leave their wives or don't leave them, yada yada the end. But he got involved with a borderline, which is probably a statistically rare occurrence, so to use that as a cautionary tale against infidelity is really stupid, especially since the insanity comes most often from the jilted partner in situations like that.

[Left Is Write]

65. It could just as easily be the other way around -

Men are insensitive idiots who think with their "pants brain", cavalierly disrespecting marriage vows and unceremoniously dumping the other woman.

[LostinVA]

82. Oh yeah... Glenn Close had a fit when Adrian Lyne changed the ending

Only Michael Douglas was able to talk her into doing it. Eszterhas' great book "Hollywood Animal" talks about it. 9Oh Joe is a reformed character, btw...)

[idgiehkt]

91. what change was made?

I'd love to know, I didn't know about this...

[BlueIris]

114. I believe that in the original ending...

Glen Close's character is shown committing suicide and dies that way, emphasizing the fact that she acted the way she did because of mental imbalances, and sparing us the godawful battle between Anne Archer and Glen Close in the final scenes.

[VeggieTart]

177. Stalker movies

When it's a guy doing the stalking, he gets the girl.

When it's a girl doing the stalking, she ends up dead.

[hfojvt]

28. Probably Brokeback Mountain

:hide:

Or maybe Dr. Zhivago. In neither case were the 'heroes' very good to their wives. Or maybe I am the misogynist for thinking a woman should want/need a devoted husband.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

32. I dont think hating women is quite the point of BBM or DZ

[sinkingfeeling]

33. Something with the entertainer formerly known as Prince was in...

'Purple Rain'?

[idgiehkt]

37. I didn't care for that much either

he's trying to make a point, or several in that movie but it or he completely fails at articulating whateverthefuck he is trying to say. Probably because he didn't really know. There is an air of emotional S&M about the whole thing that made me uncomfortable, probably because I was so young when I saw it that I really didn't understand what was going on. If I saw it at this point I would probably just laugh at it. From what I've heard about him it's a pretty accurate reflection of how he lives his life; I've seen a bio on Carmen Electra and it sounds like he's a first class jerk from the way he treated her...I didn't even know til I saw it that he 'named' her too just like he did Vanity and Appollonia.

[barb162]

40. Yes! "Purple Rain" was so bad!

I walked out on it.

[swag]

36. Probably Pink Floyd's "The Wall"

"Wah wah wah, everything's my mother's fault and if it's not my mother's fault it's my wife's fault, or some goddamned woman's fault." Throw in some man-eating vaginae dentatae and you've got a real winner.

That's only one of the reasons to hate that piece of shit movie. But that one reason is certainly enough.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

38. I was just coming back to this thread to add that movie

Upon further recollection, that movie is WAAAYYY more misogynistic than any of the others listed on this thread.

My brain must have blocked those fanged, evil vaginas -- or maybe it was all the dope I had smoked prior to watching it.

Regardless...I second this as definitely the most woman-hating (semi-normal) movie.

[idgiehkt]

44. man, I guess I'll have to watch it.

I got that there were mother troubles from the album...but I never thought of it as misogynistic. Vagnia dentata, lol, there's something you don't see every day. Honestly I would much rather see or hear a man express legitimate pain caused to him by women in his life and express it artistically than be met with a twisted portrayal of a female character rendered out of revenge because of suppressed anger. I think the latter is what misogyny is, and the former is how it is avoided. That's in general, like I said, because I haven't seen The Wall, mainly because the album is one of my all time favorites and each song is really personal to me and I don't want to add someone else's interpretation to it, even the artist's, lol.

[Caution]

45. Umm that was pretty much the whole point to the album (and by extension

the film. He was trying to come to grips with his own sense of isolation which stemmed from his completely screwed up misogynistic feelings. Only by tearing down the walls he built around himself due to his unhealthy attitudes towards women and due to the isolation he felt as a child as the result of the death of his father in the war could Pink grow to be anythign other than the caricature rockstar.

[swag]

49. Gee, I find that to be a very charitable interpretation, and I don't

think the song sequence on the album or the plot of the movie supports it.

Somebody who has a dog in the fight, David Gilmour, told this to "Guitar Player" magazine in 1993:

"And my view of what The Wall itself is about is more jaundiced today than it was then. It appears now to be a catalogue of people Roger blames for his own failings in life, a list of 'you fucked me up this way, you fucked me up that way'."

Clearly you and others here see the album and the film differently and take value from it. I think it's one of the most anti-woman cinematic expressions I've seen.

Best to you regardless.

[XemaSab]

92. Isn't that the point of the Wall?

The contributions of society (and individuals in that society) towards self-imprisonment?

[swag]

101. I tend more toward Waters' bandmate's view, myself,

but art and literature are open to interpretation.

[sendero]

142. Since Dave and Roger..

... were duking it out in court over who gets to use the name "Pink Floyd", I hardly think his comments are to be considered unbiased.

[pitohui]

112. i agree with caution

i've seen the film many times and i always felt this to be the story line

[Phillycat]

47. Could not have said it better myself

*applause*

[Radical Activist]

53. lol

funny post.

[pitohui]

111. that is not quite what is happening if you watch closely

watch the wall again

you will notice that scenes shot from the POV of the "rock star" show him indeed wallowing in my mommy did me wrong, my wifey did me wrong, my groupie did me wrong, having sick visions of the vagina dentata etcetera

but you are also given strong hints that it's his illness that makes him see things that way

for instance, he hears the groupie ask, very sarcastically, "do you want to take a bath" presumably just to get him nekkid and down to business and just use him

then we hear the same scene again, from a neutral POV, and it's clear that there is no sarcasm in the young girl's voice, just a wish to somehow please her difficult hero

or the wife -- he sees her as this humongous bitch -- her shadow is a giant amazonian monster much taller than he -- the actual wife is a small woman

there are little clues all the way thru that the POV character is absolutely stark raving bonkers and wrong to blame his issues on women, he perceives them as being all-powerful and yet there is no evidence in the movie that the women have this power he imagines, that's part of his illness

it's a classic "unreliable narrator"

yeah, his wife cheats on him, he cheats on her too, that isn't misogynist, that's just the way it is when he's a star surrounded by groupies and she's lonely because he has pushed her away because of his own illness

i don't see it misogynist at all, just sad

[swag]

120. If I happen to see it again, I'll try to view it through that perspective.

Thanks.

[Orrex]

125. I submit that you're missing the intent

It's not that Pink's Mother is particularly evil or that subsequent women have wronged him; it's that he has no idea of how to relate to women. He has problems with sexuality in general, as shown by the talking-anus Judge near the end.

In the song Mother she is portrayed as domineering and controlling, but the song can also be taken as an emotionally crippled man reaching again and again to his mother--his only surviving parent--for guidance rather than growing up and living as an adult.

Sure, his wife is cheating on him, but so what? He likewise takes a groupie back to his room, and it probably isn't just to show her his guitars. He doesn't actually perform with her, but this too stems from an inability to relate to women. Even in the all-but-guaranteed sexual environment of musician-vs-groupie, he fails.

The film is about a character wholly unable to live up to people's expecations of him, whether his mother, his wife, his school-teacher, his manager, etc.

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. Beauty and the Beast. Pretty much any romantic movie, since they

all make the assumption that the woman finds happiness by finding a man she loves and who loves her, with, of course, the tacit assumption that the ONLY thing that could possibly bring a woman fulfillment is merely finding a husband.

[Radical Activist]

48. ugh

I blame idiotic Disney fantasies for how romance is supposed to work for ruining two or three of my early relationships when I was younger with women who hadn't learned better yet. Someone at Disney should be shot for encouraging a generation or three of young girls to think their main purpose in life is to wait for Prince Charming to come along and satisfy the meaning of their existence.

[Left Is Write]

64. Well....if the only thing that could bring Belle fulfillment is merely....

finding a husband, she'd have married Gaston. ;)

[skygazer]

69. Actually that's the only Disney movie I like

And it's precisely because Belle is not looking for a man, unlike Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella and Ariel the little mermaid, all of whom fall in love with men just because they're handsome princes. Belle falls in love with a man because of who he is inside - no one would fall in love with the Beast's looks. In addition, she is intelligent and brave, not what you normally see in a Disney flick. Instead of waiting around to be rescued by a man, she rescues her father and rescues the Beast (twice).

Personally, I love that movie precisely because it has a strong heroine.

[Rabrrrrrr]

90. But I disagree slightly - you are right in that she is one of few women

in Disney movies who are strong and independant - Ariel, Lilo, and Jasmine come to mind as the other ones -

but I specifically chose Beauty and the Beast because it's still a romance in which the heroine, however strong, is still offered to us as incomplete until she has a man in her life; and also because even though she falls in love with a person for the right reasons: personality and what's inside; the Beast is still transformed into a very gorgeous human male in the end, thus perpetuating the myth.

One thing I really love about Shrek is that the women decides to match Shrek, instead of Shrek becoming "beautiful".

But, to Beauty's credit, she was never in pursuit of loving anyone, or in the pursuit of a man in order to be self-actualized, so I do suggest that I could be wrong, because this might be a rather nitpicky way to look at Beauty and the Beast, which nitpickyness might exist for the simple reason that my reasoning is incomplete and somewhat heavyhanded and broadbrushed, and one could easily use my own criteria as offered in a few sentences in this thread to show that it's impossible to have a romantic movie that isn't misogynistic, which hypothesis I do not support - I do believe we can have romantic movies in which woman finds man and they live happily ever after without the movie being misogynistic. I am saying, however, that they are rare.

[philosophie_en_rose]

94. Beauty and the Beast = The Collector Jr.

Belle was a strong character in herself, but the story is kind of creepy.

Creepy guy in castle keeps old man hostage; exchanges old man for young daughter. . .

[Left Is Write]

96. I think the change from Beast to handsome man is a metaphor...

A person beautiful inside is beautiful, period.

I like the way Belle stands up to Gaston.

[LostinVA]

84. Belle totally rocks in that movie

SHE'S the one to give The Beast fulfillment and salvation, not the other way around. Like another poster said, if all she wanted was a husband, she would have chosen the popular, manly, hunky Gaston.

[Bucky]

100. The worst part of Beauty & the Beast was how rape/abduction leads to love.

He kidnaps her and holds her hostage until she professes her love for him. If that approach really worked, I wouldn't have to buy half so much duct tape and chloroform each weekend.

[Rabrrrrrr]

117. Nothing like a little Stockholm Syndrome and some singing flatware

to make you love someone. :-)

Good catch! I hadn't ever even thought of the whole imprisonment/Stockholm thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

136. "Singing flatware"

:rofl:

[Rabrrrrrr]

139. Thanks!

Maybe if the US set our torture to peppy, happy musical numbers, no one would really care because, come on, sure there's electrodes on the guy's testicles, but they're singin' a happy little dance number! And so are the guards!

[devilgrrl]

43. Porky's, Dead Poet's Society, Animal House, etc...

Women are to be seen and not heard.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

54. While the women in "Dead Poet's Society" are seen and not heard...

the overall message of the movie is about breaking out of the mould and what happens when the individual is suppressed. The way women are portrayed in the movie is to be expected because the movie is set in the 1950s.

[kwassa]

50. "Alfie", though he gets his come-uppance at the end

What's it all about, Alfie? The womanizer at work.

[cwydro]

51. North Country

though of course they were making a point about it...

[idgiehkt]

59. The book the movie is based on is called "Class Action", it's a true story

http://www.amazon.com/Class-Action-Landmark-Changed-Harassment/dp/0385496125

It happened in Kentucky, not in wherethefuckever midwest like they said in the movie. Another movie I boycotted (like Cold Mountain)// I'd rather them not ever make a movie than take a perfectly good story/novel whatever and completely fuck it up. The person what's-her-face's character is based on is named Lois Jenson and she completely lost her health over this suit, which took 25 years to come to a conclusion. Her father did not work in the mine; why on earth that was put in there was beyond me. She was completely alone in that environment, and I've worked in male dominated working environments enough to just have a smidgeon of a clue about what she went through, which is one reason I don't do it any more and won't unless I'm going to starve, at least what I used to do. The whole thing was she was a single mother and this was an oppty to make a living wage; at the same time she couldn't report the harassment or get it acted on because of the tradition of loyalty toward other union members. She was/is in a hell of a state now thanks to the length of time the suit took to go through the courts. In the end, even though she won her suit, they beat her down to nothing emotionally and mentally, the real person, that is, not the Hollywood characterization.

[WildEyedLiberal]

113. No, it actually did happen in Northern Minnesota

AKA "wherethefuckever midwest." It was indeed an iron mine in NE Minnesota. Other than that your assessment of the book is correct.

[idgiehkt]

130. you're right I got it confused

with another case....however many liberties they took with the plot the setting was indeed Minnesota. My bad.

[Radical Activist]

55. So what about something like the Japanese film Sex & Fury

There are some graphic, violent scenes against women and blatantly exploitative nude fight scenes. But, others point out that it is one of the few movies of the era that show a woman in a powerful position as the hero. Do movies that show women in a powerful role as the heroine get a pass and labeled feminist or is it simply another kind of misogyny?
Supposedly this movie was a model for Kill Bill 1 & 2 and I think the same question can be asked for those movies.

[devilgrrl]

60. The movie that inspired 'Kill Bill' was 'Lady Snowblood'

http://imdb.com/title/tt0158714/

[cwydro]

57. M*A*S*H

just saw that movie again and it is unbelievably misogynistic. Still a great old movie though...

[CTyankee]

63. My vote would be for MASH, too. Horribly mysogynist.

I'm glad the TV show tried to remedy that (not at first but as the series matured).

[Kutjara]

104. Yes, and it was good when they got rid of...

..."Spearchucker Jones" too. I thought it was the result of a bit of dawning racial sensitivity, but wondered why they didn't replace him with a more normally named black character. Then I read that the only reason they got rid of the character in the first place was because there had been no black surgeons in the US Army in Korea. Because the rest of the show was such a fucking fly-on-the-wall documentary, of course.

[Lautremont]

62. The New York Ripper

A duck-voiced killer carving up "evil women" in New York/Cinecitta.

[wildhorses]

66. Boxing Helena, Hamlet, The Godfather....also...

The Handmaiden, The Cook The Thief His Wife Her Lover.

These are just off the top of my Head...


what about LA Confidential

Braveheart

The Gladiator

The Handmaiden, The Cook The Thief His Wife Her Lover.

These are just off the top of my Head...


what about LA Confidential

Braveheart

The Gladiator

[Lautremont]

67. "The Handmaiden"? Do you mean The Handmaid's Tale?

Hardly a misogynistic film.

[wildhorses]

72. there was a movie that I saw once long ago

where this woman would let this man cut off a finger if she lost playing cards?? thought it was called The Handmaiden. she starts out wearing gloves (DUH) as the story goes along...he was a real bastard but why she let him do it I forget why...he had some sorta blackmail on her...

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

70. I liked Braveheart and Gladiator. . . .

Thanks for making me feel like a chauvinist pig :(

[wildhorses]

71. I liked them too, both of them. They both make my personal

top ten however women of those eras were treated very badly and therefore the movies had to show that...prima nochta?

and look how Connie Nielson's character had to make choices in regards to her son?

sorry...really did not mean it in a bad way...

[Rabrrrrrr]

98. How can a historical movie be misogynistic?

It's only being true to the time - to think that Gladiator was intending to try to push an agenda of misogyny is purely ludicrous.

[wildhorses]

166. I stand corrected and feel suitably ludicrous...

there are strong women roles in both Gladiator and Braveheart. To say that those were not misogynistic times and that some of it was NOT portrayed in those movies...is to not understand fully the way misogyny works. It can be very subtle and I thought both of those movies portrayed the subtlety of misoyny very well.

[Rabrrrrrr]

173. I never said that there were no misogynistic attitudes.

But simply protraying historical misogyny, in a factual way (or, as psuedo-factual as Braveheart and Gladiator get), does not mean that a movie is misogynistic. It means only that it is historical.

A misogynist movie (or book or what have you) is one in which misogyny is potrayed as something good, worth celebrating, and a proper way of life. But having misogynistic characters does not make the movie (or what have you) implicitly or inherently misogynistic.

[wildhorses]

179. sorry, my bad...

:blush:

[Rabrrrrrr]

180. If you don't agree, then just say so.

If you do agree, then say so.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic in your responses, or serious.

[wildhorses]

183. no, not sarcastic...just misinterpreted the intent of the thread...

:shrug:

I thought they handled the subject of misogyny very tastefully and subtly and thought they deserved to be discussed but, I guess I was the only one who thought that...

[CBHagman]

107. Thanks A LOT for reminding me of The War Lord.

Droit de seigneur AND Charlton Heston. Is that upsetting enough?

http://imdb.com/title/tt0059896/usercomments?start=0

Actually, there are varying opinions as to whether the droit de seigneur was actually practiced in medieval times. I've read in several sources that there is no direct evidence for it.

However, earlier materials suggest similar practices existed in ancient times. And obviously powerful men have long exploited the vulnerable of both sexes.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066620

http://www.snopes.com/weddings/customs/droit.asp

[wildhorses]

167. please see the posts immediatley below

and just because it portrays misogyny does NOT make it a bad movie....sheesh you guys!! Those two movies make my top ten list. Misogyny exists even now to deny it is, well....ludicrous

[LostinVA]

85. "Gladiator"???

Connie Nielsen's character is strong and intelligent and brave.... even more so when you watch the movie with the deleted scenes tucked in... she was the ringleader of a coup.

I also don't think The Handmaid's Tale is either -- it was ripping apart that type of thinking.

Godfather? Maybe a little, but it's merely about the culture. And, I loathe Mel Gibson but don't think Braveheart is, either (although it is homophobic).

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

88. Yeah, I agree with you about Braveheart.

While Wallace's wife was killed (along with countless men in the movie), the princess is actually a very strong woman, who does not allow herself to be controlled.

[LostinVA]

89. And Marin fought back

[Fountain79]

103. God I loved that movie!!!!n/t

[wildhorses]

168. to say that misogyny is NOT represented in any of those

movies is to say that the times were not accurately portrayed...to not recognize the subtlety of it is your fault as a viewer not the movie maker's or mine. Just because I recognized and you did NOT does not mean that it was NOT there!!

And they are GREAT movies because of it NOT in SPITE of it!!

Sheesh...

the THEME of the movies was NOT misogyny and that is where I am at fault as they truly are NOT the most misogynistic films out there but misogyny was indeed portrayed in these films!!

[Elidor]

106. Boxing Helena, ugh!

:scared: That movie traumatized me.

[RebelOne]

126. My feeling exactly.

[noonwitch]

186. I would have to agree

It's hard to believe that a woman directed it (Jennifer Lynch), but then again, she is the daughter of David Lynch.

[speedoo]

68. Amazing to me that A Clockwork Orange has not been mentioned.

Maybe I need to check the definition of misogyny*, because some of the movies people are talking about here are not even close to being misogynistic, for me.

*hatred of women (per Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

[mongo]

123. Clockwork Orange is a masterpeice

and a condemnation of both the outlaw mentality and the law and order mentality.

It doesn't endorse misogyny any more than A Handmaids Tale

Unless of course if you can't understand concepts like irony...

[TBoneHoss]

73. What about the Harry Potter movies?

Hermione never gets to fight the dragon, or the spider, or the
troll, or the basilisk.  And in the Goblet of Fire, the dragon
the Harry battles is a female dragon protecting her egg.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

83. Wow...you're reaching far...

Welcome to DU!

[LostinVA]

86. I find Hermione a very, very good role model for females

Brave, smart, loyal, compassionate, refusing to stay in society's little box. She saves the day on many, many occasions.

I agree with Haruka -- some long reaching, there.

[TBoneHoss]

116. I don't think the forum "gets" me

I was kidding.  It was only a joke.  Of course Hermione is a
positive role model.  I'm glad to see that she was not reduced
to some shrieking violet who freezes up everytime trouble is
at hand (i.e., Buttercup in "The Princess Bride",
when Wesley is attacked by the giant rat in the fire swamp.)

Hermione is my 8-year-old daughter's favorite character in
literature or the movies.  In fact, my daughter tries to speak
with a British accent just so she could be more like Hermione.

I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[Kat45]

74. "Swept Away" (I saw the original, Italian, version)

I know it was meant to be symbolic of class relations, but on the surface, I saw misogyny.

[Kutjara]

105. American Psycho. n/t

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

119. American Psycho was the furthest thing from being misogynistic.

Are you aware that a very strong feminist directed this film? Do you understand the point of the film? Obviously, the answers to both of those are "no".

Since you are oblivious, perhaps you should re-watch the film while asking yourself, are any of the characters in this film celebrated in any way? Or is it that the lifestyle of the upper-class businessman was skewered as being completely void of anything resembling humanity or depth of character?

[idgiehkt]

131. they could have done a better job, I think.

But I do agree that there is no gratuitousness with the violence, even if there is some in the suspense like in the scene with Chloe Sevigny. There were some gaping holes in some of the action that really left me questioning the whole thing...was the sequence at the end where he blows up the police car real or was it his imgination? He wasn't on any kind of drugs...what about where he confesses the murder to his friend and the friend says it is impossible...was the friend correct or was he just in denial and his timeline off? I found it very confusing at the end. I think there is too much contrast between his character and the friends, they should have perhaps been a little more insane then they were, maybe a bunch of James Spaders running around. Less Than Zero, the book, is even sicker in it's own way, especially the ending, event though the movie was totally stupid. I think there are problems with the movie but it would be something really hard to articulate anyway, the point Ellis was trying to make. There are some parts that just aren't believable too, like when they are all watching Reagan on the television kind of in awe at his deception and one of them goes 'how can he lie like that?'. Maybe I'm just totally jaded but I don't think that would happen, they'd be cheering him on, not criticising him. I think Ellis' viewpoint slipped through there. It is so weird how they see so much of something in nothing, like pens and business cards, and so much nothing in living females. It's a bizarre juxtaposition. I can articulate it for myself but as for what Ellis was saying maybe it was just too subtle to be easily portrayed on screen, I mean, how do you characterize a lack of something without directly stating it? Two actors that can play sociopaths well and do this effortlessly are Spader and Jennifer Jason Leigh; I had really hoped Spader would get this part but I guess they wanted a younger actor. It's a very unsettling film....Christ, it's almost a documentary, really.

[Kutjara]

133. Simply because the character who abuses women is himself...

...unsympathetic, it doesn't follow that the treatment meted out to the women is not misogynistic. Ellis' book was even more pronounced in this regard. Sure, he was making a 'point' about Bateman's view of the world, through long paragraphs of loving description of business cards and neckties, contrasted with perfunctory descriptions of women, but it was such an obvious device that it quickly became boring. The murder scenes were, again, lovingly described. OK, Bret, we get it. Really. There's a profound social point to extensive, detailed exposition on the techniques involved in mutilating and murdering large numbers of faceless woman. It's not just slasher porn. Sure, we believe you. Now please go away and write a decent book.

Even the knowing wink of 'Bateman's' name was a dull piece of wordplay in a dull book.

Unfortunately, the movie suffered from a lack of courage in its convictions. It was billed as a 'biting satire' of the novel, but it's nothing of the kind. It's a pastiche, grabbing some scenes from the book, making up others, throwing in killings when the plot bogged down, leavening with a bit of flat-footed 'dark' humor. It was like 'The Player' meets 'Naked Lunch' meets 'Psycho,' with all the good parts left out. The old 'what's real, what's not' trope is hackneyed beyond belief, and this film added noting to it. Without any sort of narrative or thematic center except the obvious 'rich, jaded loony get's jollies from increasingly extreme abuse of women', AP becomes just a bad slasher movie, without even the honesty to do the slashing well. In common with other slasher movies, it leaves no lasting message but it's inherent misogeny.

Mary Harron may be a 'strong feminist', but she's not a strong director or screenwriter (on the evidence of AP, although 'Betty Page' is much better). She was clearly out of her depth here and let the film get away from her.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

134. Actually, you don't get it.

Not one bit. Not even close. And I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

[Kutjara]

156. Well, thanks for that.

It is truly humbling to be in the presence of someone so sure of his unassailable correctness that he can't even be bothered to make his case. Still, I suppose smugness is its own reward.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

161. It's not smugness.

You just clearly do not get it on a literary level, and you're arrogant about the fact that you don't get it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

174. Nice argument!!

Thanks for the clarification. I feel so enlightened now!

[idgiehkt]

176. thanks.

"Sure, he was making a 'point' about Bateman's view of the world, through long paragraphs of loving description of business cards and neckties, contrasted with perfunctory descriptions of women, but it was such an obvious device that it quickly became boring."

I guess I would want to know why, otherwise what is the point. It's not really fascinating, you are right about it being boring. You can't just show the props on video without explaining the reason behind it and expect anyone to have any insight. I don't know if this kind of thing was obvious during the Reagan era (it was kind of a theme in "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair but on a lot wider scale) or if Ellis made a link that wasn't clear at the time, I really cannot remember. At this point of course it just seems unnecessary to even have to make a statement about the dementia of these types, let alone make a whole movie about it. What would be really, really interesting, in my opinion, is for sexworkers to really have a legitimate voice in culture so that we could really learn more about these demented fuckers. My favorite poet, Chrystos, is a former prostitute and she's written quite a bit about her experience. One of my favorite lines is from a poem called "Economics 101" where she says what should happen is we should "jail all the pimps, and jail all the johns, which would wreck business, and I don't mean just ours". She makes a pretty strong connection between the consumption of sex for hire and the business world. Ellis kind of lets Bateman stand alone but in truth one rogue male business man in the world isnt' why everything is so fucked up.

anyway, it's true the film could have been alot better. I'll probably never read the book, just because it would probably affect me alot more (the violence) that way, and because Ellis is not the best writer...he just has the guts to say things alot of writers don't.

[Mr. Blonde]

149. I found the bonus interviews about this subject very interesting

on the SE DVD. How Bret Easton Ellis was hurt by feminists reaction to the book because he felt it was a very feminist book.

Filed directly under irony is of course that Gloria Steinham basically forbid Leonardo DiCaprio from doing the movie and is now Christian Bale's stepmom.

[tjwmason]

75. An opera rather than a film...

Cosi fan tutti.

Which can be translated as "Women are all the same" - the plot line is essentially that women will always run off with the nearest man if their normal paramours are away for a while.

[LostinVA]

87. Watch "Cosi" -- great, funny movie

Which satirizes the opera.

Toni Collette stars in it.

[bertha katzenengel]

76. Roadhouse n/t

[L A Woman]

78. Indecent Proposal

Robert Redford offers Woody Harrelson a million bucks for a night with his wife, Demi Moore. He doesn't bother asking Demi Moore. Oy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

137. Oy, indeed!

I saw this movie for $1 because the theater was air-conditioned, it was 105 degrees out, and I was living on the second floor of a house with no AC.

I still feel that I wuz robbed.

[XemaSab]

93. "Love Actually" rubbed me the wrong way

n/t

[smirkymonkey]

97. Totally - that would get my vote.

What a ridiculous, misogynistic movie. I also thought it was homophobic as well, as it seemed to switch the story line regarding the tension of the married man and his best friend, who seemed to be in love with each other at first, but then it turns out the best friend was "in love" with his wife. Did anyone else catch that? I didn't buy it, or any of the other pathetic story lines either.

[Phillycat]

138. Oh my goodness, how so?

I loved that movie? How is it misogynistic, specifically?

[XemaSab]

151. It felt to me like a man

trying to write a chick-flick. :shrug:

The fact that 2 of the women were secretaries/assistants of rich and powerful men skeeved me.

[philosophie_en_rose]

95. Seven Brides for Seven Brothers

What the hell?

[mitchum]

108. "Straw Dogs"

[Xipe Totec]

144. Walked out half way through the film

'nuff said.

:puke:

[BlueIris]

110. 21 grams.

"WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS ARE ALL SELFISH, SHALLOW, SPERM-STEALING ASSHOLES WHO WIND UP BARREN AND PUNISHED BY SOCIETY FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. AND GOOD FOR SOCIETY!! WHOOOORES!!!"

Ahem. There are a lot of other misogynist elements in that sick waste-of-celluloid "film," but that was the most offensive to me.

[Richardo]

118. A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum

Still hilarious in my book - a Top 5 Comedy. But jammed full of 60s-era sexism (in a way, that makes it even funnier, it's SO blatant.) :rofl:

For example:


Everybody ought to have a maid,
Everybody ought to have a working girl,
Everybody ought to have a lurking girl
To putter around the house.
Everybody ought to have a maid,
Everybody ought to have a menial
Consistantly congenial
And quieter than a mouse.
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delicious,
Tidying up the dishes,
Neat as a pin.
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delightful,
Sweeping out,
Sleeping in.

Everybody ought to have a maid,
Someone who you hire when you're short of help
To offer you the sort of help
You never get from a spouse:
Fluttering up the stairway,
Shuttering up the windows,
Cluttering up the bedroom,
Buttering up the master,
Puttering all around the house!
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delicious,
Tidying up the dishes,
Neat as a pin.
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delightful,
Sweeping out,
Sleeping in.

Everybody ought to have a maid,
Someone who in fetching you your slipper will
Be winsome as a whipporwill
And graceful as a grouse:
Skittering down the hallway,
Flittering through the parlor,
Tittering in the pantry,
Littering up the bedroom--


Twittering all around the house!


A maid?


A maid.


A maid.


A maid!
Everybody ought to have a maid,
Everybody ought to have a serving-girl,
A loyal and unswerving girl,
To putter around the house.
Oh, oh,


Think of her at the dustbin,
'Specially when she's just been
Traipsing about.


Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delightful,


Living in,


Giving out.


Everybody ought to have a maid,
Daintily collecting bits of paper n' strings,
Appealing in her apron strings
And graceful as a grouse.


Pattering through the attic,


Chattering in the cellar,


Clattering in the kitchen,


Flattering in the bedroom,


Puttering all around the house!
The house!
The house!


A maid?


A maid.


A maid.


A maid!


Everybody ought to have a maid,
Someone who's efficient and reliable,
Obedient and pliable,
And quieter than a mouse!
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be so nimble,
Fiddling with her thimble,
Mending her gown.
Oh, oh, wouldn't she be delightful,


Cleaning up,


Leaning down.


Everybody ought to have a maid,
Someone who'll be busy as a bumblebee
And even if you grumble, be
As graceful as a grouse.


Wriggling in the anteroom,


Jiggling in the dining room,


Giggling in the living room,


Wiggling in the other rooms,


Puttering all around the house!
The house!
The house!
The house!

[Taverner]

128. ET

I mean, Drew and the mom were the ones who turned ET in....;)

[Taverner]

129. OK...now Crumb may have some misogynist tendencies

But keep in mind he is an open book. Chances are all men have similar thoughts that pass through every so often.

[Radical Activist]

170. I would say some of his work is deeply misogynist.

I think he's working through is own therapy through his cartoons.

Which brings up another issue: is there a double standard. If a woman is raped or physically abused, people will expect her to be mistrustful of men afterwords. That is understandable and no one would judge the woman or call her sexist for having those feelings. If a man suffers an physically or emotionally abusive relationship, and he has feelings of mistrust or resentment toward women afterwords, its called misogyny. Isn't there a double standard there?

[El Fuego]

132. I remember a scene from "Crumb" about misogyny.

A woman told Crumb that she read his comics as a young girl and that she grew up terrified of male/female relationships because of it. He was baffled by this, and seemed to feel bad about it. He had no idea anyone would feel that way.

(I saw "Crumb" many years ago, so I don't exactly recall the scene.)

[Rabrrrrrr]

140. There is, you know, a HUGE difference between a misogynistic movie

and a movie that simply has misogynist characters.

[idgiehkt]

148. thanks...all these misogny threads are confusing me.

To me the definition of a misogynistic work is one where the artist himself is misogynist and that comes through in his narration or artistic rendering, i.e. his point of view is screwed up to begin with. It's flawed at the point of origin. There aren't that many movies I've seen that this is true of. I mean really the only ones worth talking about are ones that are works of art, anyway. I also don't think if a man expresses legitimate pain caused to him by women in his life, like in '8 Mile' that makes him a misogynist. There are alot of fucked up abusive women in the world who do alot of damage to their kids, that are probably responsible for most of the misogynist works out there, but to describe how they were and the damage they did, is not misogyny, like on the album version of 'The Wall'. I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know about it, and I don't know if I want to, but there is legitimate female sickness expressed on songs like "Mother" that has nothing to do with misogyny.

There's a song I really like that I've linked here before called "Down with the Sickness" by Disturbed but on the unedited version he goes through this vocalization of an abused child and then goes 'but in my dreams' and then proceeds to voice a kind of revenge agaisnt an abusive mother where he just screams 'you stupid sadistic abusive whore'...but it's preceding with the voice of the child screaming 'don't hit me again mommy' etc. That's not misogyny, in my book, that's narration of personal history. I mean, if you get this really strict definition of misogyny it's like men are never gonna have any kind of avenue to express their pain through art, which is where it needs to be expressed, rather than on a loved one or innocent bystander. Just random thoughts because I get on a tangent with this stuff...

[HughBeaumont]

141. Irreversible

How the HELL does anyone THINK about doing that to Monica Belluci, character or not?

Or Brown Bunny, simply because Vincent Gallo is a cock.

[Shadowen]

152. You're so very right.

Now, if the character had been played by fat ol' Camryn Manheim or talentless little Paris Hilton, it wouldn't matter. But a beautiful, talented woman--if they get raped, or even play someone getting raped, or if someone even thinks about it, it's misogyny, misogyny, misogyny.

[HughBeaumont]

159. It'd be horrible if it was ANY woman.

But yeah, every male's a superficial dickhead. Especially me.


:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[idgiehkt]

182. and you're good at this too

you both are making me giggle, lol.

[HughBeaumont]

184. So what does this teach us, everyone?

"Any thread that involves gender-related discussion, avoid like THE PLAGUE!"

[idgiehkt]

188. nah

just keep an open-mind.

[idgiehkt]

181. if that's sarcasm in your post

then bravo. well done.

[sendero]

145. IMHO..

... it takes a lot more than a repugnant female character to make a movie misogynistic. Otherwise every movie with a repugnant male character (and that would cover a lot of movies) could be accused of misandry.

[Radical Activist]

169. speaking of misandry

I think it was pretty rampant on sitcom TV for a while. Is it possible to have a family sitcom where the father isn't portrayed as a clueless insensitive moron that is constantly manipulated by his wife and children?

[blondeatlast]

175. Yes! And it was mostly men writing these show, what's up with that?

Now of course all characters except the precocious, oh-so-precious little bratlings being the only semi-intelligent creatures on the tube.

Can't. Stand. TV.

[VeggieTart]

178. Not to mention...

The guys are all fat schlubs and the women are all gorgeous. Why can't we have someone like Camryn Manheim with some hot dude?

[blondeatlast]

190. Good point!

Welcome to DU!
:toast:

[Patiod]

185. And in commercials - the guys are always losers

What's with that?

[Xipe Totec]

146. Barbarella n/t

[Benfea]

165. Oh good gravy!

Yeah, the movie's misogynistic. It's also unbelievably bad. As a teenager someone convinced me to watch it, and it was all I could do to keep from puking on the carpet.

[texanwitch]

147. I win. The movie's name is "Osama".

Trust me this is the most misogynist movie you will ever see.

[martymar64]

150. Blue Velvet

Both Isabella Rossellini and Laura Dern are viewed in a bad light in this film. Laura is seen as a naif that just falls apart and Isabella is just a masochistic mess. Of course Dennis Hopper as Frank Booth is sooooooo misogynistic.

[rbnyc]

160. Jungle Book

My Own Home

My own home, my own home
My own home, my own home

Father's hunting in the forest
Mother's cooking in the home
I must go to fetch the water
'Til the day that I'm grown
'Til I'm grown, 'til I'm grown
I must go to fetch the water
'Til the day that I'm grown

Then I will have a handsome husband
And a daughter of my own
And I'll send her to fetch the water
I'll be cooking in the home
Then I'll send her to fetch the water
I'll be cooking in the home

[silvermachine]

187. True Lies

The strip tease/interrogation scene made me physically ill. I practically felt like I had to apologize for being a man after seeing it. Bleeech!!!!

[hunter]

189. How about we first find some films that are NOT misogynistic?

There might be a few...