At stake: the reputation of a French heroine,

[acmavm]

after expert dismisses Joan of Arc's story as a royal fable
By Askold Krushelnycky in Kiev and Ian Burrell
23 December 2003

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/story.jsp?story=475675

<snip>
When the French authorities called upon Serhiy Horbenko to throw fresh light on the country's medieval heritage they never anticipated that the Ukrainian orthopaedic surgeon would attempt to undermine the most potent patriotic story in the nation's history.

But Dr Horbenko, who has established an extraordinary reputation for his expertise in examining skeletons, has risked Gallic ire by casting aspersions on the accepted story of the demise of St Joan of Arc.

The death of the teenage warrior burnt at the stake as a witch after a trial prosecuted by her English enemy and their allies in the Catholic Church, is one of the defining moments in the French national psyche.

<snip>

Mr Horbenko accepted that his theory of a substitute Joan might seem "incredible to modern day people who have cameras and video recorders and are used to instant news and images of famous people on television and in newspapers and magazines". But, he said: "None of those things existed then and most of those who saw the military leader, Joan, did not see her when she was taken captive by the English."

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Had absolutely no idea where to put this, so I put it here. It's non-political and I sure would like to hear some opinions on this.

[JailBush]

1. How depressing.

All we need is the loss of another hero.

[dfong63]

2. i read the whole article - it sounds very speculative to say the least

[Paschall]

4. Speculative, in both senses of the term

Sounds like a money maker for the good doctor.

But, please... not one, but two body doubles; an unknown illegitimate royal child and member of the nobility; not to mention the "peregrinating" skeletal remains.

[aquart]

6. Marguerite de Valois wasn't unknown.

She was born in 1407 and died in 1455. Her mom was Odette de Champdivers.

Charles le Dauphin was born in 1403 and died in 1461.

Joan is thought to have been born in 1412. She began appearing on the national scene in 1428 at age 16. Marguerite would have been 21.

Joan's path is pretty well documented. No, there was no CNN. But she travelled with the army, and there were lots of soldiers. Lots of reasonably literate noblemen leading the soldiers.

The good doctor's idea of a top down plot presupposes a central control that the Dauphin didn't have. However, if the network of pagan religious groups decided they preferred Charles to the English, and backed it up with the proper if unspoken rituals and sacrifice, then that was another matter altogether. Joan made Charles, not the other way around. And then the Church moved in and claimed the dead Joan for its own. They didn't lift a finger to help her while she was breathing.

[Paschall]

7. My mistake

I was referring to the hypothesis that the latter Margot was an illegitimate child. Wrong century.

[foreigncorrespondent]

3. Oh boy!

When will they let Joan rest in peace?

[aquart]

5. The doctor is a snob.

Nobody trained noblewomen in warhorse work back then. They sent them to convents or towers if they were worried about their safety, or arranged marriages to powerful men.

Women didn't have time for military training. If a woman didn't know how to manage her household, people died. Ever try to keep a castle clean without a vacuum cleaner? Store food without refrigeration? Do you know what to dry and what to pickle? How to hang and dress meat? Dress well without Bloomingdale's? Heal disease without being able to get a prescription at the local pharmacy? Prevent infection without antibiotics? An army of servants meant nothing if the lady of the house didn't know what work they were supposed to be doing. Women were busy learning how to keep their families alive. Not an easy task back then.

Women did not wear men's clothes without scandal. Joan in armor was shocking. If you've read Joan's trial, you'd know, and the doctor would know, that it was a signal of acquiesence when Joan put on women's clothing. But when she learned that the mercy of the English was imprisonment for life, she recanted and put her men's clothing on again. She preferred to be burnt.

What people wore mattered. There were sumptuary laws restricting what fabrics could be worn by what class or sex. Diamonds were worn by men. When the king's mistress began wearing a diamond, it was a BIG deal.

The doctor is also miserably ignorant of religious practices in that era of French history. Joan was a peasant but she was a peasant with a title. First, Maid of Orleans. Later, Maid of France. La Pucelle. You've heard that designation before: Maid Marian. France was a Christian nation, yes. But beneath the sincere veneer of Christianity was a stubborn and entrenched pagan system which predated both Christianity and France.

And if you really want to go into it, nobody was substituted for Joan. Joan herself was the substitute. She died in place of the king to ensure the well-being, the safety and fertility of the land and its people. That was the meaning of her male armor. That was the reason the people followed her. She accepted the sacrifice although, like Christ in the garden, she was tempted not to go through with it.

Why did the king require a human sacrificial substitute? Possibly for the same reason we call him the Dauphin. The heir to the French throne was the Dauphin. The rulers of France took over that title when they took over an area called Vienne. It ain't a Christian designation. It's Dolphin. And it's a title related to a sea god and sacred to Aphrodite and a hundred other pagan relationships. Using the title pretty much advertised an allegiance to the pagan roots of the French people, and would have done much to assure the loyalty of peasants who did not regularly swear fealty to the king.

Anyway, Joan knew what she was doing, peasant or not. She died for her faith and it was sorta Christian but it wasn't exactly the same faith as the Pope's. It was the faith, however, of her fathers and of the land now calling itself France.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. What next, Lavoisier stole the conservation principle

from a British scientist while eating snails and surrendering to the Germans?