To all of those I offended on the "Discrimination" thread, I apoligize

[Maine Mary]

I was going to pm everyone but it appears that there are too many of you whose feelings have been hurt by my poorly chosen words. Please understand that I did not mean to offend but upon re-reading my post #128 (I'll admit) it sure sounded that way. I tried to clear it up in posts 222 and 223, but upon reflection it occurred to me that you guys deserved more then that. So again, I am sorry and hope you all will forgive me.

This is very embarrasing to have to start this thread but I suppose I deserve to have some egg on my face. DU has been like a second home to me ever since I started coming here in May of 2001. I consider you folks like family so it hurts me to have hurt you. Again I am sorry.

-MM

[DS1]

1. Pressurized cabins make me grow too!

...wait

[INTELBYTES]

2. Am I the only one that hasn't been offended?

I feel discriminated against now!
:cry:

[Kamika]

3. no

me too.. Altough I'm mostly too stupid to be offended

[KG]

4. got a link?

i feel the need to be offended also! :)

[Maine Mary]

5. Here it is

In all of it's foot-in-mouth glory. :ashamed:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=570234

[INTELBYTES]

6. still nothing....

what else have you got? :-)

[Maine Mary]

7. Thanks for trying to make me feel better but

I DID use some poor word choices and was overly harsh in that first post #128.

I KNOW it struck a deep chord w/some people since I've never had such a DU spanking in my life. And I guess I deserved it. :-(

[trof]

8. I've been in the same situation you've described.

I didn't weigh in (pun intended) on the thread because I believe that smokers are the last, best hope of those who NEED someone to discriminate against. Other minorities are no longer PC to put down, so I guess it's just us and the fatties.

I have gotten in bodacious flame wars on the subject of smokers as second...no, THIRD class citizens, until I saw the futility of even bringing it up here.

The fault, of course, is with the airlines. Smaller seats, less legspace, more passengers on the airplane=more$$$.

Kick back, lick your wounds, go forth, and sin no more.
One (perceived) screw-up does not a bad person make.
I still love you.
;-)

[Maine Mary]

10. Thanks Trof

And you are right. Airline seats have gotten ridiclous; to make more profit I suppose.


I will try to be more senstive to others from here on out though.

[Kanary]

12. One more group to discriminate against... not even recognized yet

>I didn't weigh in (pun intended) on the thread because I believe that smokers are the last, best hope of those who
NEED someone to discriminate against. Other minorities are no longer PC to put down, so I guess it's just us and
the fatties.<

There's another group, which most people haven't even considered.... that of the Sensitive Person. In this society, it's considered fair game to dump on those who are more sensitive. It's so accepted that there's hardly a thought given to the effect it has.

Just a bit of acceptance for those considered "different" would go a long way, eh?

Kanary

[trof]

25. Help me out here?

What is a "sensitive" person?
Thanks.
trof

[northzax]

9. Oh, C'mon Mary

you stood up to the little pity party, you have little (some, but little) on that thread to be ashamed of. The lines about loving some non-thin people was a bit strained (some of my best friends are..) but you made rational, well thought out points that someone needed to say (it got locked ere I got there)

Anyone who thinks the american obestity epidemic doesn't cost us all money, is a fool.

anyone who thinks that the majority of overwight people are biologically groomed to be that way, simply hasn't been to anywhere else in the world. Either Americans are strange genetic freaks, predisposed to obesity more than any other nation, or we have a problem.

the following things cost us all money: alcholism, smoking, drug abuse and obesity. We consider the first three to be diseases, and accept those, and help those, who want to change (and not everyone can) but only obeseity victims (and read that thread, everyone who claims obesity feels sorry for themselves for it, so victims is an ok term) want to be accepted for 'who they are" I pay taxes on smokes and booze, to offset the cost of them to society. Obviously, an obesity tax is ridiculous, but 'acceptance' and 'embracing' of obesity is suicide. IT IS NOT HEALTHY. deal with that. some people cannot hold it, due to physiological issues, but 90 percent (rough guess) of those who are overweight are that way due to lifestyle choices. Smoking was a lifestyle choice I made. Drinking likewise (although I do both probably too much, I don't believe I do them to excess) most people made lifestyle choices that led to obesity. why is it so fucking taboo to say that? it is not OK for most people to be morbidly obese. It is not ok for most people to be morbidly thin. few things are acceptable in extremis, and we should, as a society, recognize that reality. Sorry, I won't accept my friend who fluctuates between 150 and 250 pounds. it's unhealthy and unsafe for her to live that lifestyle. I don't accept anything from my friends that leads to a destructive lifestyle. Should I accept a friend's driving drunk? since he comes from a long line of alcoholics? no, that's dumb.

ok, strange rant. but everyone has an excuse, and I refuse to believe that in one generation we have developed a genetic predisposition to obesity that cannot be overcome. sorry.

[liberalhistorian]

17. Well, I'm sorry,

(she says, stuffing her face with apple-caramel pie and ice cream, washed down by a 16-oz. coke), but I think that post was way out of line and she really lost me when she wondered what to do about all those horrible, evil fat people, and said, "Time for a Bill?" BULLSHIT! I'm getting tired of hearing about bills to "regulate" physical characteristics and everyone else. And as a single mother who HAS to work, meaning I sit behind a desk all day, and who often doesn't have time for the exercise she so desperately needs, I resent like hell all these moralistic holier-than-thou people who are so much better than the rest of us and who lord their self-discipline over everyone else. That's something I never expected to find on this board, of all places.

I think it's time for a bill against ignorance and moralistic superiority.

[NightTrain]

19. Geez LH, don't hold back!

How do you really feel about this? ;)

Incidentally, I'm surfing DU while eating a pint of Ben & Jerry's Phish Food. Between those two and PepsiCo, I'll be lucky if I ever see my damned feet again! :eyes:

[Maine Mary]

20. I didn't mean it the way you think I did

I was referring to possibly putting higher taxes on Mickey D's food and the like. NOT because it has anything to do with anyone's appearance but for health care costs. That's why we tax cigarettes which I voted to do 3 times to myself- a smoker.

Nonetheless I didn't make my point very well. Which is why I am apologizing. And it DID come off sounding mean. Again, sorry.

[uhhuh]

38. Disagree

I think that increasing taxes on these items will primarily hurt those who have the least and are most likely to buy them.

People who haven't been instructed in proper nutrition and who have little time to prepare food due to having to work two or three jobs to make ends meet,or have limited cooking facilities, or a lack of understanding of food preparation are the most likely to go for the quick meal at Mcd's.

I think a better bill would be one that promoted nutritional education and food preparation training for people in a low income environment. These people may have no means of transporting 5 bags of groceries other than public transportation, but could easily carry a couple bags of fast food. How about a bill to provide transportation for low income folks from home to the store and back?

High calorie, carbohydrate rich foods, like pasta and potatoes, are often the least expensive foods available for low income families, so when they go to a store, it makes sense to them to budget their money to get this food into their families' stomachs. I think a bill intended to offer exercise and activity programs for low income folks, as well fair wages that would allow people who have little time to indulge in physical activity to use their the spare time they could finally have in healthy ways.

Another thing that I think may have a negative effect on people today that doesn't get much attention is the amount of toxins and pollution that has gotten into almost everything in this country over the last 50 years. It think that Americans may, in fact, be found to be different from the rest of the world in some sense, due to the level and variety of poisons that we routinely breathe and ingest daily. I have no facts to back this up, but these things could have strange health effects that could effect metabolic processes in some way.

As far as your apology, I think that it was good that you owned up to what you said, but I think it could be important for you to look at why you felt the way you did it that situation. If you were in a crowded subway, and crushed between a group of thin people for an extended period of time, would that have bothered you? Are you just uncomfortable being too close to others, or is it only when they are large that it concerns you? If so, why? Did you express your discomfort to the passengers in this situation, or just to the flight attendant? If it was just to the attendant, why did you not feel it was right to address them directly, since they were the issue?

[oldcoot]

59. Thank you for clarifying this point

I wish you would have said this in the other thread. The main reason I reacted negatively to your post was that I was not sure how you planned to tax obesity. Now, that I know that you only want to tax fast food, I do not want to boycott your state.

Thank you for your apology. It is difficult for most people to admit when they are wrong. The fact that you were willing to do so is a sign of character.

[private_ryan]

26. that's f---ed up

how dare you suggest that being obese is not normal and even worse, how dare you suggest that most people can control their weight??? You must be a freeper...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

40. Oh I see..so people can control their weight but men can't control their

impulses...:D You are nothing if not completely inconsistent on matters of self control.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

39. That's about the most judgemental crock of shit I've ever read in my life

It isn't a strange rant..it's a rather ignorant one. Hell sports injuries cost us money if a kid on a skateboard is uninsured. That's the CON of insurance is to persuade everyone into thinking they are paying for everyone else's maladies versus paying for the greed of the insurance industry which costs us more than all health claims combined.

And a note to Maine Mary...I have sat next to professional ball players (Southwest was the airlines of choice for the Oakland Raiders) and had the same situation as you...it isn't about fat...it's about SIZE and the airlines needs some bigger seats for their bigger passengers...it isn't their fault...some people are big ..some people are little.

I know you and I know you don't have a deliberately MEAN bone in your body.

[northzax]

51. yup.

and any skateboarder not taking proper precautions (like wearing a helmet and elbow pads) should be on the hook for his/her own treatment.

and you know what? I'm tall. I'd be thrilled to pay slightly more for slightly more room on long flights. I can't do business class, but the long hauls over the pacific in coach get tiresome.

you are correct, doctors are greedy bastards, how dare they charge for surgeries? you don't think heart surgery, brought on by obesity, costs money? of course it does. someone's paying, through insurance, higher costs or higher taxes. everything costs money, you know?

I am waiting for the explanation of what happened to the US genetic code in the past 40 years that has led to a boom in obesity. in few other nations do you see the large numbers of obese young people, but since it is never anyone's fault, we must have some fucked up genetic codes. maybe it's the flouridation of water?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. No it's the LOW FAT EVERYTHING that is marketed to people

filled with nothing but sugar and propped up through the propaganda of the USDA. YOu are trying to use conditioning over a number of years and equate it to some sort of character flaw, but if the average youngster sees over 1 million commercials by the time they are 20 years old, what do you think they will be eating? A healthy diet or McDonalds?

Do you like to play down in the gun threads? Do you support unfettered access to weapons? Any idea what bullet holes in people cost us per year?

Any idea what MEDICAL MISTAKES and poorly vetted drugs that injure people cost us last year?

Yes, education is the key to healthier lifestyle....brow beating people so that you can be righteous about it makes no difference whatsoever, however..and finally...I really don't have to defend anything since you cannot possibly quantify what you belive it is costing you for people to be over weight.


I am well aware of what surgeon's charge and how they charge it...my clients are all specialists....I would suggest you probably don't have much of a clue or know how they bill it...of all the players in the medical system, the surgeons are the least greedy so I wasn't invoking them if you return and read my post a bit more carefully.

Oh and as a student in college, I seriously doubt any of this is costing you a red cent!

[northzax]

60. er, who's a student?

I'm not, and haven't been for the better part of a decade. And yes, it is a character flaw, one that crosses across society. But since it crosses against society, I say we don't do anything about it. Everyone should be accepted for who they are, and we should require clothing to come in all sizes, from 10-35, to accomodate those who are obese. baloney. Frankly, I got a little pissed off at people on diets bitching at me for questioning the cultural value of obesity. Anyone on a diet is obviously unhappy with their physical appearence. Anyone on a fad diet, one that involves all grapefruit say, or the cultish Atkins deit, is obviously unhappy with thier obesity, whether real or percieved. I have issues with someone telling me to accept something that they are unwilling to accept about themselves.

I'm sorry to have reality interfere with your ideals, but most people who are obese are that way because of lifestyle changes. And they recognize that it is not healthy, or we wouldn't have fad diets sweeping the nation. I'm sorry that obesity is unhealthy. it is.

And your lovely surgeon friends may be the most reasonable billers in the health care field, but if your bypass costs much less than $50,000, you might want to look into another provider. and if that bypass is directly related to lifestyle choices that are blatently unhealthy (such as a lifetime of smoking, or obesity) and the person hasn't paid more into the system to compensate for their drain on resources, then I don't appreciate paying the tab. maybe you do. But I don't want to be stuck with the bill, even a portion of it, for those who drive drunk, don't wear a seat belt, ride motorcycles without helmets or practice other unheathy habits without contributing more to the pot to compensate. just my thing, I guess.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

65. So you have issues with people who have problems?

I'm not, and haven't been for the better part of a decade. And yes, it is a character flaw, one that crosses across society. But since it crosses against society, I say we don't do anything about it. Everyone should be accepted for who they are, and we should require clothing to come in all sizes, from 10-35, to accomodate those who are obese. baloney.

Oh I see so having people not be able to be presentable at the size they are won't allow them to have a better view of themselves?

So what they are unhappy with their weight. It still isn't your place to judge them


Frankly, I got a little pissed off at people on diets bitching at me for questioning the cultural value of obesity. Anyone on a diet is obviously unhappy with their physical appearence. Anyone on a fad diet, one that involves all grapefruit say, or the cultish Atkins deit, is obviously unhappy with thier obesity, whether real or percieved. I have issues with someone telling me to accept something that they are unwilling to accept about themselves

I agree with you on one point. You have issues..not with others but with allowing them to simply BE without having your judgements cast on them. I don't know who I feel sorrier for...people who can't live up to your expectations or you for being so callous.

I'm sorry to have reality interfere with your ideals, but most people who are obese are that way because of lifestyle changes. And they recognize that it is not healthy, or we wouldn't have fad diets sweeping the nation. I'm sorry that obesity is unhealthy. it is.

It isn't REALITY interfering with my ideas, it is YOUR SUBJECTIVE reality. We have fad diets sweeping the nation largely due to the fashion industry catering to anorexia and the fact that SKINNY IS BETTER is force fed via advertising 24/7/365....people die from undernourishment too, you know...and their nedical care costs a few bucks as well.

People are getting fatter, but that is largely due to the fact that they are working longer hours in more sedentary lifestyles...gosh maybe we should give the death penalty to people who are too tired to exercise after working all day :eyes:


And your lovely surgeon friends may be the most reasonable billers in the health care field, but if your bypass costs much less than $50,000, you might want to look into another provider. and if that bypass is directly related to lifestyle choices that are blatently unhealthy (such as a lifetime of smoking, or obesity) and the person hasn't paid more into the system to compensate for their drain on resources, then I don't appreciate paying the tab. maybe you do. But I don't want to be stuck with the bill, even a portion of it, for those who drive drunk, don't wear a seat belt, ride motorcycles without helmets or practice other unheathy habits without contributing more to the pot to compensate. just my thing, I guess.

Well guess what...there are many things that contribute to heart disease, diabetes and hypertension and the most PREVALENT factor is HEREDITY. Again, since you can't quantify this judgemental rant and HEREDITY plays a bigger role than ANY of the other factors you mention, maybe we should soon start discriminating against people for who their lineage is.

[northzax]

70. oh, how much fun is this?

let's discriminate against heredity, shall we? and when we're done can we pick on the Jews? please?

oh, I said we should deal with behavioural issues, not hereditary ones? and you took that to mean I wanted to deal with heredity? sheesh. This is remaarkably close to the old way to win an arguement, by comparing the other person to Hitler.

Yes, the primary cause of almost everything is hereditary. Those people with a genetic predisposition to heart disease can live an exemplary life (Hi Jim Fixx!) and still die from heart issues, while others can be blessed with a heart that will survive the worst treatment possible. And there is nothing, I repeat, nothing, that those folks can do to seriously affect their genetic heritage. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, with tickers good for 80 or so years, if we take care of them. Frankly, I don't take care of mine. I smoke. So I pay more in taxes and insurance to compensate. seems fair to me. is my smoking of 3-4 cigarretes a day more of a risk than gaining 150 pounds? probably not, but I pay for the smoking and not for the weight. strange, ain't it?

and I'm willing to let everyone be. with the notable exception of those people who demand to be let be. You'll notice that I never posted on the original thread that started this issue. I don't really care. be what you're like. and be happy. but don't expect me to accept an inherently unsafe lifestyle. live your life, but don't look to me for approval, it ain't forthcoming, because I don't care to endorse something that obviously makes you defensive and unhappy. Why do you want me to?

Don't look to me for approval, look inside, that's what matters. you can have the approval of everyone else in the world, but if you don't like yourself (and over-defensiveness is a certain sign of that) it is all come to naught.

and I heartily suggest turning off your tv, you'll live longer.

funny thing. We tell those people addicted to alcohol and other drugsthat they have ti really hit bottom to get better. so why are you so interested in helping the bottom be softer for people who are obese? no one thinks life as a morbidly obese people is pleasant, why are you so interested in making it better, instead of encouraging people to get better? physician, heal thyself.

[liberalhistorian]

62. Well, for one thing, there's

a lot less opportunity for physical activity in the daily lives of adults and children. Time was when many more jobs were based on physical labor, as well as household chores. Children rode their bikes and/or walked everywhere, especially before people used their cars to drive just a mile to the store or someplace like that.

Now, most jobs are sedentary and involve very little physical activity, for both men and women. Children and teens have far less opportunity for physical activity. And most children don't have the opportunity for unstructured play, most of their activity is all scheduled and planned out now.

And there's so much more food everywhere, and portions are much bigger. So I think that if anyone had a genetic predisposition to obesity (and that has been scientifically shown, btw, it's not just blame-someone-else bs), it wasn't nearly as likely to have a chance to manifest itself before our modern culture.

[private_ryan]

63. that's why we have to be extra careful

about the diet and exercise. It's harder but doable.

[Pithlet]

64. I don't think anyone is really arguing

that it is doable for many people. Just how doable may be debatable, but weight is something that can be changed. I just don't think it's as easy as some people make it out, and there are definitely genetic components.

But that doesn't make it okay to discriminate against fat people. It doesn't make it okay to make disparaging remarks or jokes about them, either. And when people do, it is irrelevant, IMO, to bring up the fact that it is something that, for some people, can be changed.

It is hard to lose weight. I'm lucky in that I do not have to work, so that leaves me with more time to dedicate towards losing weight. If I had a job on top of taking care of my kids, I don't know if I'd be able to do it nearly as effectively or work at it as hard as I do.

[northzax]

66. exactly

anyone who makes jokes about another human needs help. fine. no worries. I have never said anything different. It is difficult to lose weight, of course it is, but it's also difficult for most people to gain large amounts of weight. but you can, in fact, dissaprove of someone's lifestyle without making actual fun of them, you know?

[Pithlet]

67. I suppose...

although, really, I don't see the point of disapproving of anyone's lifestyle, unless of course it is something like mass murder, pedophilia, or anything that harms others. Seems a bit judgmental to me.

The thing is, a lot of the comments about it being a choice were in response to posts that were mocking and degrading fat people. That is my point. Rather than responding with something like "gee, what an insensitive thing to say", or perhaps, not responding at all, some responded "I agree. They're lazy and they eat too much?" Not to mention the dubious assumptions that they directly cost the rest of us lots of money.

[northzax]

73. As mentioned below

I reserve the right to disapprove of any lifestyle that is enherently damaging to self or others (I better not see anyone attacking me on this thread commenting on anyone else for voting for bush, driving an SUV or anything. I'll call you on it.)

I didn't even participate in the original thread. I had no desire to, but when Maine Mary, someone I respect, was basically coerced into an apology, I took offense. It's a complicated issue, and anyone who said "they're lazy and eat too much" is a bleedin' idiot.

[Pithlet]

76. Reserve away

I never said you couldn't. Sorry, but it still seems judgmental to me. I reserve the right to that opinion. And, voting for Bush and driving SUVs are arguably harmful to others. I don't see where my weighing 30 lbs more than I should is.

I did not participate in the original thread, either. And, your initial reply to me was a post where I was replying to someone else altogether, so I've never ascribed anything else to you, other than the judgmental bit.

I like and respect Maine Mary, also. I do think she was right to apologize, and I really respect and admire the fact that she did. Not many will. I don't think she was coerced at all.

edited to fix spell check errors.

[Bertha Venation]

68. disapproving of another's lifestyle

I don't want to start more flames. But I have to ask: why is anyone else's lifestyle yours to disapprove of?

[northzax]

71. well, since the comment was in reference

to a friend of mine, I reserve the right to disapprove of anyone's lifestyle. I won't comment on it unless it affects me, as a family member or friend. Although they are completely tangental to this point, I sincerely disapprove of many lifestyles. I would list them, but I refuse to put warmongers, pedophiliacs, kiddie-pornographers and sadists into the same category as anyone on this board, since it isn't even close. But yes, I reserve the right to disapprove of your lifestyle. sorry if that upsets you, I think you'll find, if you try me, that unless this lifestyle is actively damaging to yourself, or more importantly, others, I won't disapprove.

Strange that you don't disapprove of those lifestyles? or do you, and it interferes with your moral indignation at me?

[Meowser]

74. Judge Judy, Is That You?

As far as approving or disapproving of a lifestyle, it's probably best that you mind your own business and take care of yourself first. Judging by your posts, you need all the help you can get.

[Bertha Venation]

75. back off, man, I'm a scientist

;) Look, northzax, my question wasn't intended to draw your ire. I now wish I had made that clearer.

No. I do not believe it is my place to disapprove of any "lifestyle" that does not harm me or others. The exception is if that "lifestyle" belongs to someone I care about. Relevant anecdote: I have a half sister who has always lived her life outside the law. I disapprove -- not exactly of her lawlessness because hers are victimless crimes, but of how her life can hurt her in the long run. But there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. She's an adult. I care, but my disapproval goes nowhere.

"Strange that you don't disapprove of those lifestyles?" Of what you listed? When did those "lifestyles" ever enter the discussion? We're not talking about people who hurt others. The topic here is obesity. Unless my fatness kills another human being.... :shrug:

"I reserve the right to disapprove of your lifestyle." Which "lifestyle?" :eyes: Knock yourself out. You may disapprove of my "lifestyle" all you like, but dude/ette, since you don't know me, it means nothing to me. Perhaps the time & energy you spend disapproving of me would be better spent elsewhere.

PS Y'know, my dad disapproves of my "lifestyle" and various aspects thereof, too. I offer him the same advice: spend that energy elsewhere. It's wasted on me. Your disapproval does not improve my lot.

[private_ryan]

69. actually

we had a big discussion on that thread. It was mostly genetics vs you can control it. I should've elaborated and we fought :) that fight yesterday so no point in doing so again

[Jerseycoa]

11. I'm fat

And I forgive you :)

[Maine Mary]

14. Thanks

You're sweet too. :-)

[a_random_joel]

13. Hey MM

I totally agree with you in principle. It is not discrimination to want comfort on a plane. End of story. If someone is invading your space, whether obese or not, they should have to pay extra IMO. It would be like some guy stretching his legs out onto your lap, or crossing his legs and his foot is in your area. I do not think it is inappropriate to expect people to respect YOUR space that YOU paid for.

I do think your words were poorly chosen, however... and I could see how the tone of your post seemed insensitive and over the top.

[Bertha Venation]

27. it's like crossing legs & putting my foot in your area?

That's baloney. You're comparing an act of passive-aggression -- or of outright inconsideration and rudeness -- to something I can't help once I'm on that plane.

All I'm doing when in an airplane seat is sitting -- and I go out of my way to be as unobtrusive as possible.

I don't use the arm rest; I usually choose a window seat and try to tuck my free (non-window) hand between my opposite hip and the wall so that my arm doesn't even brush up against the person next to me. I take measures in the terminal bathroom to ensure that I won't have bad breath. I don't eat any foods that would give me gas. I fly silently -- I do not speak to the passenger next to me unless that person speaks directly to me first. I don't use the phone; I don't use a laptop; because I snore, I try not to fall asleep.

Why not poll fat people to find out all the ways we try as hard as we can not to offend the comfort and sensitivities of the thin?

Hard as it may be to believe, it is not my intent to piss you off or make your flight miserable.

In my current state, random joel, I have to fly. There's nothing I can do about how I fit into the seat next to yours. It is not my fault that the airlines cram people in like sardines -- even my skinny child nephew complains of not having enough room.

If you would expect me to buy two seats so that you don't have to sit next to a fat person, you can buy two seats so that you don't have to sit next to a fat person.

[scarlet_owl]

49. Exactly. Should other people who make flying "unpleasant"

have to pay extra? What about the annoying fucks who talk your ear off? Or the babies? How about the stinky guy? I'll sit by you anytime, Bertha. We can talk about your kitties.

[Bertha Venation]

50. let's talk about Jesus doing the macarena!

That's hilarious. :)

[scarlet_owl]

53. I love Dancing Jesus!

If the Son of God doesn't have rythm, what hope is there for the rest of us?

[Bertha Venation]

54. ROFL

I like your attitude. :D

[madrchsod]

15. so it`s your opinion

if you have a sister that struggles everyday just to keep up with her duties then it seems to me you don`t have to apoligize. maybe you did go over board maybe not but dam people are pretty thin skinned..hell i was the skinny kid-"tooth pick", etc,etc ,my daughters friends call her "etho" and other names cause she skinny. there`s not much we can do and there`s not much large people can do either..

[INTELBYTES]

16. I'd have to toast you for posting what you did!

If people get offended screw em! They were looking for a reason to be offended and you just helped em out.

( Of course the toast will have to come without butter or creamcheese!) :eyes:

[liberalhistorian]

18. Oh, really?

And if there's some kind of bill to regulate the "fatties", as people like to call them, just where will it end? Will there next be a bill saying you can only have a tan at certain times because, after all, skin cancer costs all of us money in medical costs and lost productivity, and who really wants to look at that in public, anyway? Or how about a tax on African-American adults, since they have a higher incidence of high blood pressure, diabetes, kidney and heart disease, etc., and that costs us all money too? Jesus H. Christ on a raft, I'm gone from this country if that shit starts to happen.

[Zomby Woof]

21. you didn't offend this heavyweight

Of course, I have the thickest skin on DU, no sense of shame, and I have always loved you my friend! :hug:

ZombyCoffee washes away all sins. (Or restores them, whichever one prefers) :donut: :evilgrin:

[Maine Mary]

23. Thanks Zomby

Your Hazelnut is the best and so are you. :-)

[southerngirlwriter]

22. All is forgiven.

Go and sin no more.

[Bertha Venation]

24. Thank you for your apology. -- Care to ask anything?

I appreciate it.

Would you care to ask anything about obesity? Being obese myself since age 13, I could answer some of your questions. (I frequently ask questions about things I don't understand because I feel it's a great way for me to learn.) If you had any questions, I'd answer them. Since I'm sure any questions would be offered without offense, I will take none.

[Pale Blue Dot]

28. Having met Maine Mary, I'd like to say

that she is one of the most gracious and lovely people you could ever know. AND, she has done more for the Democratic cause than most of us. I think that anyone that has met her, regardless of weight, would gladly pay EXTRA for the privilege of sitting next to her on a plane.

Hope your holidays were good, Mary!

[BiggJawn]

29. I KNEW you must have mis-spoke.

Thank you and apology warmly accepted.

[populistmom]

30. We all owe it to ourselves to be healthy

I've lost a lot of weight over the past year. Turning to food as a source of comfort was something I used to do. It's an addiction just like anything else. Even now, if I have bit of sugary foods, I get a bit wacky and it's hard for me to stop eating, but I do. I don't like the blood sugar ups and downs and fatigue I used to have.
I have also smoked on and off for years and gave that up as well. If I drink, it's usually one drink (rarely 2). I don't do anything else either.
I have gone from a size 20 to a size 12, and while I'll never be a 2 or a 4 (although I still would like to get to 8 or 10), I look very good now, and even better, I feel good. I don't believe one has to fit an artificial standard of beauty, unattainable by most, but we owe it ourselves to try to be as healthy as we can be. For many of us, it means different things. For me, my back doesn't hurt anymore, nor do my knees. My cholesterol dropped 80 points. I have a ton of energy. I see options and hope in my life, when I didn't before. I'm not going to judge anyone, but all I can say for myself, is that whatever "thing" I turned to outside of myself for comfort, distraction, or whatever, ultimately hurt me as an individual.

[private_ryan]

31. congratulations. I really mean it

now that you lost the weight and see the results you know that "fat acceptance" is wrong. Everytime I work out I have way more energy and self esteem than I need, sometimes I even feel better than Rush Limbaugh :)

[Pithlet]

32. Fat acceptance?

I'm normally a thin person, until I get pregnant. Then, because of gestational diabetes and pregnancy induced hypertension putting me on bedrest, I pack on a lot of weight, which took me about a year to lose after my firstborn. Right now, 8 weeks after giving birth, I still need to lose about 30 lbs. at least. In the meantime, should I be shoved to the margins of society? This added weight is doing nothing to jeopardize my health. My blood pressure is back to normal, and the diabetes is gone. The only thing right now that is different from the way I was before pregnancy is my looks. I no longer conform to the ideal. The only reason I desire to lose this weight is because of how overweight people are treated because of attitudes exactly like yours.

We don't need "fat acceptance". We need "normal acceptance". The images that women are bombarded with pressuring them to be impossibly thin is killing us, and I'm not just talking about anorexia. Yo yo dieting actually increases your risk of heart disease by 70%. It's actually safer to not diet. Yes, it is possible to lose weight for most people, but it isn't easy, and not always safe, and for some people, nearly impossible. We are far too thin obsessed, and that costs us far more than fat people do.

Bottom line is, if being overweight was such an easy "choice" then why is the dieting industry a multi-billion dollar one? Why do some people undergo a highly risky surgery where about one out of every 100 people who have it die? If it's so easy to lose weight, far more people would be successful at it, because being overweight, even moderately so, is no picnic. I'm sorry, but the whole "choice" argument smacks of the same one that right wingers use to slash programs for the poor.

I'm sorry to use Mary's sincere apology thread to address this, but "we don't need fat acceptance" just really hit a button with me.

[private_ryan]

34. yeah we don't need to accept that being fat is OK

we need to accept that we need to be in good shape (not the other extreme either). It is a multi-billion dollar industry mainly because people are gullible and fall for quick fix scams and don't have the will power to stick with the ones that work.

How else can we explain that close to 60% of US is overweight? I can't believe that genes changed that much in the past 20 years or so...it is that "food" we see advertised and driving everywhere or watching TV / staying online for hours. Everything ads up.

ON EDIT: every woman gains weight during the pregnancy, that's normal. I wasn't talking about that at all.

[Pithlet]

55. There is no doubt

that for many, being overweight isn't healthy (not all. It is possible to be heavy and in good shape). And I agree that the availability and high pressure marketing of unhealthy foods is wrong and doesn't help the obesity problem at all.

But there are a lot of things that most of us do that are unhealthy. It's just that the consequences aren't immediately obvious. People who lay out in the sun. People who eat the same unhealthy foods that will clog their arteries, but don't visibly put on weight. People who smoke (they don't always have a cigarette in their mouths, so they can walk around and not get pointed at and reviled). Not getting enough sleep. Leading stressful lives. All of these things can shorten and degrade quality of life and require costly health care. But, they don't get the same level of judgment passed on them that fat people do. The number one reason for that is thin=pretty and good. Fat=ugly and bad. It's okay to mock them and talk about the consequences being fat has on society because of that.

Whenever someone makes a racist or sexist comments they get properly called on it. When the same comments are made about fat people, the arguments like "well it's their choice" and "it's unhealthy" come up. Well, so what? It still doesn't mean they deserve such treatment any more than a chronic tanner, smoker or type A stresser.

[populistmom]

35. Take it slow and don't worry

I had my last baby 2 and 1/2 years ago and I gained 40 pounds (all in the last trimester while puking during the first two). I didn't even start until a year ago. For me, I did begin to use food in a way I shouldn't have at times, which made me miserable, but yes, pregnancy is a whole other story. We need time to take care of ourselves and our babies. That's what's the most important. Don't even worry for a second.

[Bertha Venation]

46. Brava, Pithlet.

"We don't need fat acceptance" -- agreed. We need tolerance.

Let the flames begin; I don't care. Too damn many people sound just like Freepers on this issue.

And again, thanks to MM for the apology.

[jonnyblitz]

61. I am still kind of surprised at

how people were blatantly nasty with no qualms about sounding like complete.....well...i won't say it. I don't care about getting flamed either. who cares what assholes think. :hi:

[Booberdawg]

36. Wow, populistmom. That's quite an accomplishment!

I've lost about 40 pounds myself recently and a couple sizes just now thinking I should really put some effort into this as I really should lose at least 20 or 30 more to be the most healthy.

I'm a big and tall person anyway so I can carry a lot of weigh, but you mention the most valuable benefits to losing the weight and that is just feeling good, having more energy and the improvement in cholesterol. Right now I take a total of 3 meds for cholesterol and high blood pressure, and there is a strong tendency for diabetes in my immediate family.

So there are good reasons for weigh loss other that just being fat.

Good for you! :thumbsup:

[wingnut]

33. you were pretty rough

but your underlying point, that people should only take up the seat that they paid for, is a good one.

If one take up more than a single seat, then one should pay for the extra seat, not intrude on someone else's.

[TeacherCreature]

56. I have an idea

All fat people will stop flying and everyone elses tickets can skyrocket in cost. Then when you all figure out that isn't such a great deal, you can place the blame where it really belongs, on the tiny seats. Then we can all lobby for human sized plane seats.

Speaking as someone who is 5'11', I need about 5 more inches of space between me and the seat in front of me. If my knees end up in your back perhaps you can bitch about me refusing to have my legs shortened to make your ride more pleasant.

[oldcoot]

58. What about thin people who squirm?

On a flight from Las Vegas to Tucson, I sat next to a woman who squirmed the entire trip. She was young and thin so of course no one would think that she would take up so much room. I was worried that she might hit me at one point. While I am not thin, I do not take up more than my fair share of space on a plane.

[The Undertaker]

37. Pffft...

your words didn't offend me one bit, that's for sure. Heck, what you said needed to be said and I totally agreed w/ it all. :)

[MaineDem]

41. I've stayed out of these threads

I've read them but felt too emotional to respond.

I was surprised to read your post. I didn't expect that from you.

Thanks for the apology.

[jonnyblitz]

42. those threads were an eye opener.

no further comment.

[chefgirl]

43. I can respect that, Mary

No one expects you to change your opinion of overweight people, and as for my part in the discussion, it had nothing to do with wanting pity. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't call myself fat, but I'm sure some would because that's how obsessed people have become about this issue.

Words have power, and the fact that you felt comfortable expressing yourself the way you did is exactly the point the original poster was trying to make. Fat prejudice is largely accepted, and I believe thats probably why you didnt think there was anything wrong with what you said.

You have every right to your opinion of overweight people, but regardless of that opinion, everyone deserves respect.
Prejudice most often shows itself in the language we use, and the words that are so often leveled at overweight people do have power.

We must stop perpetuating this blind hatred toward the obese, and the best way to do that is to change the language we use.
Common courtesy isn't really that difficult.

I appreciate your apology. It couldn't have been easy, and I respect you for making the effort.

-chef-

[foreigncorrespondent]

44. Maine Mary...

...I never saw your original post, until of course reading this thread, and I am kinda glad I didn't. I would have been very hurt had I seen it.

I feel very sorry for you, and for others on this board who think it is a-ok to insult someone for the way they look.

Granted there are some people out there who will overeat. Most people who overeat usually are suffering from depression of one form or another. And it certainly doesn't help them with people constantly staring at them, or insulting them. I should know.

As I mentioned in the other thread on obesity happening in GD, while I am a large woman, I am not overly big woman, nor am I ugly. I have however, been bigger than my ideal weight, all my life. I have also suffered from depression all my life.

Yes I used to put my weight down to it being because of depression, but I realized, I wasn't overeating, so I went and got tested to find out exactly what was going on with me. I did end up finding out that I have polycystic ovaries. And of course one of the many side affects with it is weight problems.

No one should judge another person. You have no idea what is causing someones weight in the first place.

I feel so very sorry for you with very narrow minded views of people.

[Selwynn]

45. You're top notch in my book, for saying that!

[liberalhistorian]

47. One major problem is that

airlines cram everyone in like sardines, as someone else said, and even thin or short people are very uncomfortable. I used to enjoy flying, but unless I have a window seat I hate it now. And I'm not fat or overweight, either. I have no leg room or arm room, and barely any other room at all, even if I'm sitting next to a thin or normal-weight person.

And, even though I'm not fat or overweight, the day the airlines demand to know my weight before I fly is the day I stop flying.

[Iverson]

48. apology accepted, and it can also be a learning experience

For some of us who recorded objections, be assured that you were not the only writer in mind, and also be assured that it is not necessarily a matter of hurt feelings. I got snarky with you in part based on emotional response, but primarily from vigorous disagreement about making value judgements about people based upon looks alone.

It should be possible to set aside the rancor and keep the serious points in the exchange. I hope that happens.

Your constructive gesture is welcomed.

[TeacherCreature]

57. So

Were you wrong, or did you simply word what you said badly?

[Meowser]

72. An Infrequent Poster's Comment

I don't post very much but happened to read some pretty nasty comments on those threads. The judgementalism and narrow-minded attitudes toward fat people helped me realize why I don't stop by here very often.

Most of the harsh and inaccurate comments came from men, though I was surprised to see quite a few women buy into the bullshit American 'you-can-never-be-too-rich-or-too-thin' mentality. I'm 5'6", 120 lbs and have never had a weight problem in my life. This does not give me free reign to judge those that are not as fortunate as me.

It is not as simple as diet and exercise. If the food and consumer product industries weren't such a powerful lobby in this country, the food pyramid wouldn't be upside down. Nor would carbohydrates, preservatives and calorically-dense food be the norms, and the cheapest available for poor people.

There is no doubt that there is an obesity epidemic in this country. If you want to know why other countries are so thin, look at the foods they eat. I lived in Europe, where I got fresh food everyday from the many street markets in Paris. Because Americans work longer and harder than Europeans, most get their quick, calorie-loaded food in the supermarket or fast food chains. There is a much deeper problem than just fat and skinny in this country. It is cultural.