What's your code phrase for "that person is gay"?

[Bertha Venation]

An exchange between Cosmicdot & Skittles brought this question to mind.

Here are some of mine:

s/he's:
family
PLU (people like us)
a friend of Dorothy's (men)
a friend of Bertha's (women)

s/he:
wears sensible shoes
plays on our team

or, when spotting someone, simply pointing them out to whomever I'm with and saying "sis-ter...."

What's your code? What do you say when someone pings your gaydar?

[terrya]

1. They're family.

I don't employ different usage for men and women.

If I see a man or woman that's gay...I say they're family.

[CalebHayes]

2. I don't have a code because I don't care.

The only reason why I would want to know would be if I wanted to have sex with them.

[Andy_Stephenson]

3. No cobwebs

as in

"No cobwebs in that closet"

[cosmicdot]

4. when spotting Gays traveling in pairs: "dos mas"

IAW: 'there's 2 more'

- just having fun not hangups

- not shouting it out, just two friends out-and-about having fun in private conversation

Friend of Dorothy's is used frequently here

"a sister"

of course, if you show up at "Poodle Beach" in Rehoboth Beach, Del ... it becomes "Mucho Mas" ...
:hi:

[arwalden]

9. My partner and I will sometimes softly hum (or softly sing) "Sisters"

Sisters, sisters
There were never such devoted sisters,
Never had to have a chaperone, No sir,
I'm there to keep my eye on her
Caring, sharing
Every little thing that we are wearing
When a certain gentleman arrived from Rome
She wore the dress, and I stayed home
All kinds of weather, we stick together
The same in the rain and sun
Two different faces, but in tight places
We think and we act as one
Those who've seen us
Know that not a thing could come between us
Many men have tried to split us up, but no one can
Lord help the mister who comes between me and my sister
And Lord help the sister, who comes between me and my man

[Character Assassin]

5. "That person is a homosexual".

Keeps the unknowing in the dark, that one.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

11. Or... thay guy/gal is gay.

I agree that the directness of your observation does tend to shroud the point. Very astute.

[Blue_Chill]

41. lol

:D

[karnac]

77. How about

Exquisite style and Panache? I might only try that with a gay friend. He can just as racy

[Dirty Hippie]

6. You should be careful

"outing" someone can be considered inappropriate depending on the circumstances.

[Bertha Venation]

8. True, but I'm not talking about outing people --

I'm talking about harmless speculation.

[EditorialCartoon]

7. Sometimes You Don't Have To Say Anything

Sometimes you can just tell.....

[Touchdown]

10. Mine is "That person is gay."

Why mince words? ;-)

[Padraig18]

12. "Meat for a sandwich"

That's what Tony and I say, when we spot a guy who makes our gaydar go off. :evilgrin:

[thom1102]

13. I like that one...

I have used all the ones bertha noted at some point (except maybe "friend of Bertha") but this one is new.

When Jeff and I spot some hottie we would like to see more of, we will just go "50 T___ St" (our address). Some dish delish will strut by and I will turn to Jeff and say "50 T___ St?" and he will go "you know it, baby. I wouldn't kick HIM outta bed for eatin crackers."

[Padraig18]

16. LOL!

We also use 'cracker crumbler', for the same reason. :P

[jonnyblitz]

33. gasp

:wow: :wow:

[Padraig18]

40. *grin*

Uh huh! :evilgrin:

[TeacherCreature]

14. I had some gay friends who used to spot Casandras

As in "there were a lot of Casandras at the mall today".

[gator_in_Ontario]

15. My wife says family...

I just nod...we are everywhere!

[rbnyc]

17. In the Life

or simply, gay.

:)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. I'll usually just be like

so what do you think about that one?

My one coworker starts making radar noises.

[Robb]

19. "He's good to his mother"

...which deserves some explanation. One of our dearest gay friends tells the most hilarious story about coming out to his family, and his brother reporting back that his aunt said something like "B-b-but, he's gay? But he was always so good to his mother!!" :D

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

29. That's like when I came out and my mom goes,

"but you're so pretty."

[Bertha Venation]

31. Kinda funny, kinda sad.

Stereotypes abound.

[Kamika]

20. GAYdaRR!!

topic

[name not needed]

21. is that soem kind of gay thing

[BiggJawn]

22. "Plays for the Other Team" or "That person is Gay"

But I can't remember the last time I used either phrase...

[Selwynn]

23. Yeah, ok that's .. just about the most offensive topic I've ever seen.

Hey, what's your slang code words for pointing out someone you think is straight? What, you mean you DON'T go around discussing the straightness of straight people...

..fascinating...

[thom1102]

24. Behold the breeder's

Hey, honey, look at those breeders! EWWWW! That's just disgusting! Can't they do that in private!?! That guy's with her?!?! Boy is SHE in for a big surprise someday! That boy is ALL girl! Girlfriend needs to dump the bitch and make the switch, 'cause he doesn't know which side of his bread he likes his butter on.

[beyurslf]

25. Actually we point out both gay and str8 men. Especially at the gay

bar. It's fun. Maybe not politically correct, but fun nonetheless. :)

[terrya]

26. Christ, if you don't like a post...don't read it.

What the fuck is so difficult about that?

[Selwynn]

51. Christ if you don't like the administration why don't you leave the US?

What the fuck is so difficult about that?

Oh wait a minute... now suddenly that sounds like a freeper argument. Maybe I should think twice about suggestion that if someone doesn't like something or disagrees, rather than speaking up and out they should just get the fuck out. Hmmm... interesting. Yes, provocative.

Maybe instead of "don't like it, leave" I believe in a "don't like it, well for fucks sake use your god-given freedom and stand up and say so!" approach. :)

[Bertha Venation]

28. No offense was meant, but I'm glad something I posted could fascinate you.

Do you imagine that we who indulge in this small bit of cultural fun do this specifically to cause offense?

Selwynn, this is light-hearted banter. Absolutely no offense is intended nor should any be implied. I expected a little annoyance, a few eye-rolls, a few "enough with the camp" comments, but frankly I'm surprised that this topic affected someone in this way.

[Booberdawg]

30. Bertha Venation

I wonder if Selwynn knew you were also gay, and if he thought you were a straight making fun of gays. Just wondering.

I know Selwynn to be a pretty decent guy to stand up for womens and other minority issues, that's why I wondered. I hope this is just a misunderstanding.

[Bertha Venation]

32. I hope you're right, Booberdawg.

I've always considered Selwynn to be as you described him. If it's not a misunderstanding -- if he was truly offended -- I hope he'll say so here. I want to understand. Chance to examine myself.

TY, Booberdawg. (I had to stop myself from calling you by a nickname that seems to make perfect sense until it's spoken...) ;)

[Booberdawg]

34. Go ahead, call me by my nickname

I call my namesake, my faithful pooch, Boobie. :D

[Bertha Venation]

35. well, see, Freud lives, I suppose, because

I was just gonna call you "Boob." :o

[Booberdawg]

36. Love your handle BTW

It stood out to me right away when I saw it. Very clever. ;-)

Boob

[Bertha Venation]

37. wish I could take credit

but the credit belongs to Harvey Fierstien. It raises eyebrows on :tinfoilhat:ters, though.

[Booberdawg]

38. My next handle will be ....

Seymore Butts - novelist who wrote "Under the Bleachers"

now I better quit this - I have hijacked your thread.....

[Bertha Venation]

48. hijack? I don't care...

...and I just realized why going to Amazon.com to look for Under The Bleachers was an airheaded thing to do.

[Booberdawg]

50. ROTFL!!

made ya look! :evilgrin:

[neebob]

43. I assumed you were addressing GLBT members

but if you're interested, as a straight person who would rather not think in terms of sexual preference and tries not to vocalize it when I find myself thinking, "That person is gay," I did wonder how society is ever supposed to get to the point where it's not an issue when it's an issue for you. I understand why it's an issue, and I'm not begrudging you your sense of community. But I do notice that my gay and Lesbian friends don't really attempt to include me and other straight people in their groups.

[Bertha Venation]

55. I was addressing everyone, not just GLBT DUers.

I operate under the presumption that unless I specifically hear otherwise, everyone accepts me as I am, and about my orientation thinks, "so what" -- if they think about it at all. I look at straight folk the same way.

I don't denigrate straight folk. I don't hate them or think of them as different types of people and I damn sure don't hate them. Why on earth would I attack someone for his or her orienatation? It's about the stupidest, most ignorant thing I can imagine.

I don't exclude straight people from my life or from my circles of friends. IMO for any GLBT folk to do that is to remove their noses to spite their faces. Moreover it's harmful to the community -- ALL communities -- the community of mankind. My god, I'd be excluding my dearest friends -- my sisters -- their kids (I think), my in-laws, dear friends at work, dear friends back home, from my life. What a waste!

"I do notice that my gay and Lesbian friends don't really attempt to include me and other straight people in their groups." Have you ever raised the issue w/ your GLBT friends? If it hurts you, it might be worth your while to discuss it with them. Maybe they don't know they're doing it.

Separation of straights & gays is not an issue for me, neebob. I talk about being gay here on DU for a number of reasons; it comes up

1. in discussions of civil rights
2. in discussions of religion
3. by default whenever I mention Mrs. Venation
4. in countless other contexts here & there

but the fact that it comes up doesn't mean I dwell on it anymore than a straight person dwells upon being straight.

[neebob]

67. I don't think you shouldn't talk about being gay

or that you denigrate or attack straight folks. Your reply is much broader in scope than I expected, and I hope you didn't read that much into my little post. All I intended to say was what is there, literally, in words. I think the society where it's not an issue is a desirable thing. And I don't think your post was bad; I was just throwing out an observation.

As for my friends and their little groups, I don't think it's intentional, but I wouldn't feel comfortable asking about it. It's like there's a line I can never cross. I'd be willing to bet the number of invitations turned down by the gays and Lesbians in my crowd exceed the number of invitations they issue to those of us who are straight.

Or at least that's how I'm identified. I'm actually just not interested in pairing off, regardless of gender. I think I could have gone both ways if I'd been raised by more open-minded parents.

[arwalden]

116. Hi Bertha!

Personally, I found your topic to be a light-hearted "eye-roller" and a campy "groaner"... but fun nonetheless. I enjoyed reading the replies.

Love, Allen

[Bertha Venation]

120. hey, Allen...

Glad you enjoyed it. :hug:

Why did your duck lose its color? Is that your way of telling us you preferred "Bewitched" in B&W? ;)

[arwalden]

126. Yeah... he looked out of place next to a B/W Samantha...

And yes, I do prefer the BW episodes of Bewitched. Although seeing the wild and colorful 60's outfits, and Serena's pantsuits, and Endora's eyeshadow and earrings in color can be a treat too.

Love, Allen

[Bertha Venation]

128. I loved Endora/Agnes Moorehead.

She changed her own oil, y'know. :evilgrin:

[arwalden]

129. And Darrin #2 (Dick Sargent) Went To Jiffy Lube

... don't cha know?

-- Allen

[Bertha Venation]

131. Yepper.

"We Are Everywhere" -- it's not just an anthem.

[arwalden]

134. I Think Uncle Arthur Had Track Lighting Too.

Paul Lynde was a hoot!

-- Allen

[Bertha Venation]

135. I always thought of Aunt Esmarelda as

Miss Garment Bag 1965. I mean, she had to go deep into the closet to get those clothes she wore, don't you think? Dude, I could smell the mothballs through the TV screen.

[Mrs. Venation]

78. Kind of Thinned-Skinned, Aren't You?

Usually if Bertha and I see some opposite sex couple swapping spit our reaction is "get a room!" Sheesh.

[Mercurius]

27. How about

"He's gay."

[trof]

39. how about

"Please pass the salt."
I like Bertha, but this is a pointless thread.

[Booberdawg]

42. Since when to 95% of the threads in the Lounge ever have

a useful point to most people?

Sheesh!

[trof]

46. OK, I'll play.

Kinda light in his loafers, ain't he?
Like a three dollar bill.
Poofta.
Nancy-boy.
Sissy-boy.
Butch.
One of "those".

Hey, this is FUN!

Sorry, maybe I'm totally off base, but this just doesn't strike me as a good thing to do.
Maybe I'll start one on code names for Negroes.

[Selwynn]

53. "Maybe I'll start one on code names for Negroes"

THANK YOU. That is exactly my point. Why the hell is this "OK" when it would never, ever, every be tolerated about other minority groups?

[arwalden]

57. You're Making Too Much Over Nothing...

... and then making invalid and unrelated comparisons to justify your irrational anger.

Queer Americans have always felt isolated and alone in a sea of (largely) judgmental heterosexuals. There is a bit of comfort that one gains---particularly in small-town-America---in fine tuning one's gaydar and spotting others who are also gay.

Rather than risk being "found out" by speaking openly about it, and rather than risk making someone feel uncomfortable by speaking so bluntly and openly about whether or not we think they might be also gay, it's quite common for Queers to use code words when privately discussing whether or not strangers on the street are also Queer.

There's nothing sinister going on.

You're looking for insults and bigotry and intolerance where NONE exist.

-- Allen

P.S. Other minority groups usually aren't closeted and hidden in the same way the Queer Americans can be. So it's kind of silly to ask the question if this would be tolerated among other minority groups. Surely they can see for themselves without having to say a word or get a "second-opinion" whether someone is Black or not.

[Selwynn]

63. Fine, then there's nothing wrong with code for Jews, Catholics,Southerners

..and anyone else I might take "comfort" from being able to "identify."

Let's see some threads on that.

[arwalden]

70. That's correct. Nothing wrong at all in how anyone wants to self-identify

the group they belong to. Nothing wrong at all in how they choose to carry on a private (yet audible) conversation on their private speculation about others.

You're making irrelevant comparisons about something you clearly don't understand or have an appreciation for. Hypersensitivity doesn't accomplish anything. There is no cause to champion here. There are no victims. You want to prevent and control idle speculation and self-identification. Good grief!

Quit acting so sanctimonious and quit borrowing trouble. Move on.

And if Southerners or Jews want to discuss how they privately self-identify and the code-speak they use to prevent others from readily understanding the meaning of overheard private conversations... then where's the harm? Please explain to me why you find this so offensive.

-- Allen

[Zhade]

108. I'm still learning to read the darn thing!

Queer Americans have always felt isolated and alone in a sea of (largely) judgmental heterosexuals. There is a bit of comfort that one gains---particularly in small-town-America---in fine tuning one's gaydar and spotting others who are also gay.

How sad is this - I'm a bi guy living on the west side of Los Angeles, and I have trouble picking up clues when I'm near West Hollywood!

Well, so it seems anyway - my gaydar is newly developed, you see. ;)

[Obamarama]

137. Excellent points arwalden....

Well articulated, and accurate. Bravo!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. If I may just inject a small point

I think it's great that you are a beacon for higher consciousness. I deeply appreciate that about you.

I haven't participated in the thread because it's not really something I do, but I think that those of us that have been part of the gay culture for any length of time, play around with a bit of self effacing humor at times, because if one can play around and actually BE WITH the names we get called, then when one is ACTUALLY called those names by someone with malicious intent, it really doesn't sting.

That's just my take on it.

(Frankly, I hate the word LESBIAN...I think it sounds like something from outer space :-) )

[Selwynn]

62. I'm not trying to stick up for others - it offends me personally -

so I've said so. It offends me when there is such a double standard - if someone was to start a thread about nicknames for black people, or catholics, or southerners - there would be an uproar.

But its ok because its ok in this society to poke fun at someone's sexual orientation. It's ok to kid around because somewhere along the lines people agreed that it was acceptable. But that's fine - I realize its not like all the people responding on the thread are evil gay-haters or something like that. It's just something that I don't appreciate, and I feel as entitled to speak my mind as anyone else here, so..

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. I know and it's fine with me that you do

But my southern friends make cracks about themselves, my black friends do too, as do my Italian and Jewish friends.

While I realize it may translate poorly on a message board and can bring out the worst in people, I also think treating ourselves with a bit of humor can be a good thing.

NOt trying to silence you at all...go for it if you feel strongly.

[Selwynn]

71. I just remember my gay friend wasn't laughing at all ---

when a bunch of my other friends thought they were just being "chummy" and "funny" by calling him many of the "code" names that have been listed on this thread.

It was so harmless, and so friendly that I made and excuse for him to leave into another room with me where he cried.

One man's fun is anothers.....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. I realize it is a double edged sword

I've been on the other end of it.

I do think context and intent matter and that content and intent can easily get mucked up on a message board.

[arwalden]

98. Exactly NSMA... Have you noticed that I use the generic term "queer"

whenever I refer collectively to gay-lesbian-bisexual-transsexual-transgendered individuals?

Try this sentence : "Queers are being discriminated against and persecuted by Republicans." Nothing patently offensive about that now is there?

How about this sentence: "Hey you QUEER! Where are you pearls and pink tutu QUEER boy?" or "We gonna go show them queers they ain't welcome around here." Now THERE's an example where the word Queer is now being used disparagingly.

Isn't that interesting? I think you're right on target when you say "context and intent matter and that content and intent can easily get mucked up on a message board".

This isn't rocket-science folks. It's pretty simple, really.

Hmmm... the sanctimonious "how-dare-I" attitude that's being bandied about in this thread makes me wonder: Should I stop using the word queer? Should I stop wondering if someone else over there might be queer too? Should I stop wondering if I might make a new friends with that (maybe) queer couple who might have something in common with us? How DARE I speculate about someone else's sexuality? Am I invading their right to privacy?

Oh, the horror of it all! How insulting and presumptuous and intrusive for to imagine that I might have something in common with another person who knows what it's like to be Queer in America.

Heaven forbid that I use any non-clinical word meaning "gay-lesbian-bisexual-transsexual-transgendered" in a private conversation or whispered observation.

Should I stop watching "Queer Eye"? Dear me! Being hypersensitive is so confusing for me. I don't know when to be insulted and when to look the other way. I guess it's just safer and easier to be insulted ALL THE TIME. It's a lot easier than thinking critically and thinking about someone's intent.

NSMA... It's worth repeating your very keen observation "that context and intent matter and that content and intent can easily get mucked up on a message board".

It's also noteworthy and of interest that even when the context and intent have been clarified (repeatedly), some folks still refuse to admit when they've made a mistake and misunderstood the spirit and intentions of others.

Sometimes being stubborn can be a good thing... sometimes not. This is one of those "sometimes-not" moments.

There's a big difference between USING the word "queer" and CALLING SOMEONE a "queer". I get it. You get it.

There will always be some folks who never get it... or who don't WANT to get it. I'm glad that most folks around here are more reasonable.

-- Allen

[Bertha Venation]

101. "heaven forbid" -- amen

"Am I invading their right to privacy?

"Oh, the horror of it all! How insulting and presumptuous and intrusive for to imagine that I might have something in common with another person who knows what it's like to be Queer in America.

"Heaven forbid that I use any non-clinical word meaning "gay-lesbian-bisexual-transsexual-transgendered" in a private conversation or whispered observation. . . .

"There's a big difference between USING the word "queer" and CALLING SOMEONE a "queer"."

Exactly. Very well said, Allen.

[arwalden]

72. I didn't see any "poking fun"... why did you?

I think you didn't think things through. I think you dug yourself a hole and rather than admitting you made a mistake and admitting that you misinterpreted the intentions of Bertha's original message... you would rather just dig deeper and get angrier and angrier.

Go for it pal. Whatever floats your boat. No skin off my nose... it's your own blood pressure you have to worry about.

-- Allen

[Selwynn]

75. Because of the story I've already told.

When I make a mistake, I say so.

[arwalden]

84. You're kidding right? I thought so.

LOL! Good one.
-- Allen

[Selwynn]

87. Kidding about what?

[arwalden]

92. Oh Brother! Pretending Not To Understand? Whatever.

But oh, the irony. You... pretend not to understand, when you really DON'T understand. That's rich.

Okay... I think I'm done here. You've played this hand out about as long as you can. Now we're down to the "who-me?" defense. (Yawn.)

The last word's yours, Cowboy. Make it a good one.

-- Allen

[Selwynn]

94. I'll do my best to make it a good one:

You've repeatedly made it clear that more than anything else you have some kind of a long standing personal problem with me.

I accept that, but I certainly don't have to listen to it anymore.

*clicks Ignore*

[arwalden]

100. I Fail To Understand How Pointing Out Your Error

can be equated to my having a "personal problem" with you. Clearly you're capable of heaping undeserved scorn upon others, but if one person dares to question you, then you'd prefer to dismiss it as being a "personal problem".

Lucky for me that I'm not the only person around here with a "personal problem" with you. Clearly, in your estimation, anyone who disagrees with you and states so has a "personal problem".

To like you is to agree with you.

-- Allen

"Clicks ignore?" You actually typed that? (Too funny! Did you stick out your tongue at the screen too? LOL!)

[Mrs. Venation]

80. I Am A Hillbilly

and I am damned proud of it. I grew up in the mountains of Eastern Tennessee. Although I've been living away from there for over 21 years, I still have the accent and I'd never try to change it. I think hillbillies are the finest, most honest, decent caring people one could find anywhere. You want to call me hillbilly, it's a compliment.

Now, I am also a lesbian. You can call me that, or gay, or dyke, or sister, or family, or queer as a football bat, and I won't care. This is your hangup, Selwynn, not ours, and if you can't live with some light hearted chat between us, don't read it. No one made you follow this thread, and no one is making you stay.

Mrs. Venation

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

82. Hey Mrs V.! Welcome to DU

and give my regards to Uncle Cousin :evilgrin: ( I have a long line of southerners in my immediate circle)

[Mrs. Venation]

85. Thank you,

nothingshocksmeanymore and Booberdawg. Obviously, I don't post much, but I get a lot of satisfaction from reading DU.

I come from a long and distinguished line of rednecks; sometimes that has been to my advantage, sometimes it has been a disadvantage. Usually, though, it works in my favor because I've found that people with preconceptions about rednecks have a tendency to vastly underestimate me, and in many ways.

Again, thanks for the welcome to DU. Bertha and I are very happy.

Mrs. Venation
a.k.a. Kathy

[Booberdawg]

83. Hey Mrs. Venation

Nice to see you come out. Pun intended. :evilgrin:

:hi:

[Bertha Venation]

96. as Mrs. V. would say . . .

You ain't right.

[Selwynn]

89. No one is making you stay in the US either, if you don't agree - leave

...wait... that's not right.

Yeah, it doesn't work in open discussion threads either.

[terrya]

93. Huh? What...what happened here?

Bertha Venation asked an innocuous question in her opening post. If you see someone you think might be gay...how do you refer to them?

And suddenly, it's race baiting time here.

How did we get to this point?

PS..no, I'm not going to leave this country because of this administration, or whatever point you were trying to make earlier.

[Bertha Venation]

95. Buddy, you just summed up my confusion.

Succinctly. Too bad it's flying over heads in the flame wars.

[Booberdawg]

61. "Starting a code name for Negroes"

Is not a useful analogy in this instance. You can tell by looking at someone whether they are Black or not - there is nothing closeted about it and no fear of outing someone that fears being outed.

I think this thread was started in fun and an issue is being made where none existed. Can't gays talk and have fun among themselves? If it doesn't bother them, then why should it bother straights?

[Selwynn]

64. Ok - how about code for southerners, catholics, jews..... ?

That ok?

[Booberdawg]

68. I don't accept your premise that it's the same issue, Selwynn

In most cases you already know someone is a southerner, catholics, or a jew - there is no need for a code word or any danger of "outing them"

I understand the point you are trying to make, I just don't agree with it nor what you are basing it on.

[Selwynn]

69. How do you know someone is a jew, catholic or southerner?

Any more than you would already know someone is gay? I understand you're point being that there is no risk of "outing" anyone. Ok, I get that. However, I don't think it matters. I think making up little slang names for gays is exactly like making up slang names for blacks, jews, catholics or anyone else. You may think its harmless, and it may be when you do it in your context -- but all to often it isn't. It is so often the case that it isn't that I would just rather steer as far away from that as I possibly can.

[Booberdawg]

76. Perhaps the key is "context" then

What Bertha Venation was referring to and the others were in context of their own community, their own "gaydar", of knowing whether someone they meet or greet is also gay.

Personally, I could see myself saying to someone "I am xxxxxx, are you of the Jewish faith?" "Are you Catholic?"

As a straight person, I would not, however, feel so comfortable asking someone, "Are you gay??", even if I suspected or knew they were, because I would be afraid I was outing someone that didn't want to be outed. Maybe another gay person could. And I don't have "gaydar" anyway.

When bigotry is not harmless, I suspect it's intentional anyway, which is the case when used with jews, catholics or southerners.

I am of Italian heritage - my family is proud of that, although we have fun with the Mafia and mob references and are not offended by it.

[Selwynn]

86. I think you're probably right about context.

[arwalden]

88. Booberdawg... You're Aptly Describing The Obvious

that others choose not to see (or pretend not to see when trying to save face.)

There is no harm, no error, no foul. You get it! I get it. Others don't. This is a no-brainer for me... I don't understand why some folks have such a difficult time understanding it. I don't understand why some folks need to imagine insults where none are to be found.

-- Allen

P.S. So these two Chicago mobsters walk into a bar... :-)

[Selwynn]

90. There are worse things than being concerned about...

...how to act appropriately. Maybe I'm just really stupid, and that's why its not so "obvious" to me. But if that's true, I'm not sure the best approach is to ridicule and act insultingly toward me because I'm not as bright as you are.

Seems to me like there are far worse things in the world than being concerned about how to act most appropriately, especially in light of the fact that I've seen this very thing called "harmless" by other gays deeply hurt my gay friend. It happens, and it makes me question how we broach the subject in different contexts.

I have difficulty understanding why its so difficult for you to be civil to me. What does it matter if I have my own concerns about this stuff? Why is it not appropriate for my to say what I think?

[Booberdawg]

91. *snarf*

Let's just take a little drive to Mulholland Drive, queer. I'll "make you an offer you can't refuse". :evilgrin:

[Bertha Venation]

58. Trof, aren't all such silly threads pointless?

I like you too, trof, and thanks. Now, honestly: Can you find me a thread about "what's for dinner" or "I just broke a guitar string -- ask me anything" or "is Michael Jackson really behind the Iranian earthquake and the Chinese gas explosions" that is any less pointless than this one?

It's a harmless, pointless, fun diversion for some to discuss on the board something that some of us would probably discuss IRL over drinks. For others, apparently it's something that's better ignored.

[ronnykmarshall]

114. MJ

"is Michael Jackson really behind the Iranian earthquake and the Chinese gas explosions"


You mean he's NOT????!!!

[Bucky]

44. I say "That is a person who has sex with members of the same sex. Wow."

And then I say, "That's totally interesting. I hope they vote for Clark."

[jumptheshadow]

45. Lots of gay-watching on the main street in my neighborhood

It's a collegial thing and lots of fun.

We use:

"family"

"bird" (as in "gay as a box of birds," don't know where that phrase came from)

FOD (friend of Dorothy)

a "baby" or "babies" (for a lesbian under 23 or two young lesbians holding hands)

[soothsayer]

47. "goes to my church"

or "is a member of my (our) church"

[arwalden]

54. Yep... I've heard (used) that one a couple of times.

- Allen

[soothsayer]

49. also---"[he or she] needs their money back" if the person looks

100% gay but isn't...!

[arwalden]

52. Hat-Tay Erson-Pay Is-A Ay-Gay

Or... "Hat-Tay Erson-Pay Is-A Omosexual-Hay"

Very subtle, huh?

-- Allen

[southerngirlwriter]

56. couple of things

myself, the only time I'll ever mention it is if I'm with a like-minded friend (i.e. someone to whom "gay" isn't an insult or scandalous), and I usually just say "gay."

Here are things I've heard others use, though:

1. My mom just bought a palace in a ritzy neighborhood. There is a house down the street shared by three men. She told me they were "queer." (Mom's a freeper; she meant that badly.) I rolled my eyes and said, "And you know that because??" She said the real estate agent had said in a high-pitched voice, "They could help you with your decorating!"

Well, as offensive as that was, after she told the story to my sister and the extended family, they've started using "GREAT at decorating" as a code. LOL.

2. I saw a flier once for a gay Alcoholics Anonymous group. It said:

"PSSSSTT!! Are you one of those? You know, funny that way?"

I thought that was cute.

3. If someone is obviously gay (or appears to be, anyway), they may be called a "flamer," at least around here.

I think this thread is interesting. Not offensive. Just my 2 knuts.

[Bertha Venation]

60. let me add a couple of things

I have to relinquish the PC to my better half in a minute.

I clearly do not understand why trof, selwynn, and others are upset about this thread. Please enlighten me -- I ask sincerely.

Consider: I'm driving down the street w/ Mrs. V., and see someone walking who pings my "gaydar." I point the person out to Mrs. V. and say something like, "Look. We're everywhere." She looks and chuckles and says, "You think?"

This is the kind of innocuous banter I am discussing in starting this thread.

I'm not talking about labeling people before others; I'm not talking about outing anyone; I'm not talking about homophobes screaming "DIESEL DYKE" at me as I walk down the street; I'm not talking about harm toward the community or toward any individual or group of individuals.

I am talking about harmless, quiet fun between two people or a few people. People who all already know that each of the others has no problem with GLBT folk.

I hope to come back to find the thread still open and some reasonable, non-flaming explanations of objectors' opinions. Thank you.

[Selwynn]

65. My objection is the hypocrisy

If I were to start a thread on DU Lounge that said:

What is your code phrase for "that person is a Jew"
What is your code phrase for "that person is a Catholic"
What is your code phrase for "that person is overweight"
What is your code phrase for "that person is a southerner"

I'd probably be banned. (I'm not saying you should be banned, I understand your intent was not to offend.)

I do not like the kind of terms and slang being thrown around here in jest -- there's too much baggage behind most of it, and there's hardly any of that I haven't seen used in a context of hate by people with much different perspectives than the folks on these threads. I feel like life would be much better if/when the world can stop seeing/giving a damn about the difference between heterosexual and homosexual. No one goes around making up nicknames for straight people, or giving their sexual orientation a second thought. I long for the day when the same is true on all sides.

I know no one meant to offend, and I'm sure many just think this is a personal problem, and that's fine. But it offended me, I've said so, which I'm just as entitled to do as any of you are to post, and now I can be done with it.

ON EDIT: I want to add what I said in response to NSA...

I know that there is virtually no one on this thread that means anything bad, and that joking around can be good and fun sometimes. But it wasn't "fun" for my gay friend when a bunch of my other friends thought they were just being "chummy" and "funny" by calling him many of the "code" names that have been listed on this thread.

It was so harmless, and so friendly that I made and excuse for him to leave into another room with me where he cried. They all thought they were so great for being so open about his being gay when in reality they were so insensitive about something that had been difficult for him that they hurt him a lot.

One man's fun is anothers..... I just don't like to screw around with this stuff, that's all. But I know you're not bad people or something - so I'll leave it be.

[Bertha Venation]

97. I appreciate this

Selwynn, I appreciate your clearing up why you have this objection. I do not see any hypocrisy. I don't understand how saying -- one gay person to another and to no one else -- "she's family" equates to calling someone a k*ke or a n*gger. I also don't understand how such innocuous terms in similar context can hurt anyone.

I am truly sorry that your friend was hurt. I can't imagine what went on in that situation and within your friend to cause such hurt, but I certainly don't discount it.

Again, although none was intended, I'm sorry for the offense this thread caused you. No hard feelings?

[Selwynn]

105. None at all - but please see my post below, for me :)

[Booberdawg]

99. I didn't see your edit till just now

I knew there had to be a reason for this because I frankly have always considered you a pretty stand up guy, and I felt there was some misunderstanding here; I hope you know this.

I'm glad you had the sensitivity to care about your friend the way you did - it sounds like it was a pretty mean thing to do to him. It the context you describe, it sounds like straight guys were egging him on about being gay, and not other gays sensing each other in their own community in the context described in this thread.

I understood your point, I just think we were talking about two different things, that's all.

I'm glad to have someone like you around, BTW. ;-)

[Selwynn]

104. Yeah, I apologize about that.

I agree, I think we're talking about different things. But my problem, whether I've been oversensitive in the thread or not is just that I have dealt with a lot of very bad attitudes and very hurtful things when it comes to treatment of GLBTs. You have to remember, I live in Idaho. So, people of my particular disposition - one of love and openness toward gays, straights, perpendiculars, right-angles, acute triangles and any other kind of geometric orientation without question - really have a hard time. If I am oversensitive, it is because I frequently feel like I am on the front line of some of the worst attitudes possible of humankind.

It does make me jumpy. "What do you mean by THAT??!?!? HUH??? HUH??!?!!?"

Contrary to the opinion of some (OK one) - there's no evil or clandestine motives on my part. If I overreacted I apologize - I am very jumpy about the issue of fair, decent and sensitive treatment of all kinds of people. BUT - having said that, I also understand how people who are gay can get really irritated with a straight man coming in and going off.... so sorry.

But I hoped I've clarified what I was "seeing"/hearing when I read this thread - sorry if I wasn't seeing clearly. :)

PS -- something else about me you probably did not know, I grew up believing homosexuality was a sin and that homosexuals were dirty, lascivious, promiscuous evil people. But you know what happened? I med a guy named Steve, and a guy named Jerrod, and a guy named JD, and a girl named Tess. And I loved them to death. And I discovered they were some of the most beautiful and most absolutely fabulous people I have ever known. I saw that there were decent, honorable, people. I saw that they had a love for their partners that was so intimate and beautiful that I literally envied them. I saw how much I felt I had in common with their convictions, philosophies and politics. They helped me in my developing conviction that nothing is more important than unconditional love for people, not judgment. I know I'm not perfect at applying those convictions all the time, but I try.

Because of my past, I tend to be slightly more of a militant defender of equality, fair treatment, sensitivity and kindness between straight and gay communities. So much so that I probably overreact. So you know *cough*... sorry about that. :D

[Booberdawg]

112. You didn't need to apologize to me

but I appreciate the sentiment anyway. You already had a pretty solid reputation with me in previous womens issues and men's rights threads; I already knew you to be sensitive but not in a derogatory sense, so I was not particularly offended. I just knew you were having separate conversations together.

What I wondered and what I wanted to look up before I responded to this is where Mathew Sheppard was from. He was not from Idaho but from Wyoming, but you probably come from a similar culture to that.

I've been known to be overly sensitive on a few issues myself, Selwynn. Not everyone here knows what all of those issues are, but I can tell you that I have mellowed with years and experience and learning when to pick and fight the battles.

For one, I am more sensitive to the topic of referring to people as "retards" than most other people are. That comes from being the parent of a mentally handicapped child and spending all of my adult life, volunteer and personal time, around these delightful children, teens, and adults. My son would have been 25 in a few months.

So, you see, when someone "means no harm" by calling someone a "retard", I know first hand how hurtful that is to children who work their ass off twice as hard to accomplish half as much and to me a parent who hates to see their children and their peers get put down for something they have no control over. A mean spirited label.

I've spoken my mind for just that in a couple threads, and it WAS the correct context - I wasn't confused about it. Nevertheless, I got flamed just as those who spoke up with me did. The person who said it meant no harm .....

Okay - my rant is over. Just so you know you're not alone in this or the only one that can be caught off guard being over sensitive. ;-) I had to quit posting for a day or two and read a book.

[Bertha Venation]

113. Dude.

Well written and thank you. :hug:

[arwalden]

122. A Very Nice Explanation And Apology...

I think that everyone who was angry with you for overreacting will certainly be willing to accept your heartfelt and sincere words.

I know I certainly am.

-- Allen

[Selwynn]

139. Thanks Allen, I appreciate that - I'm giving it a go again too...

..as you can tell.

Sorry for the fight. :)

[Selwynn]

106. What happened to my friend was ---

No, the problem was that his own acceptance of his homosexuality was a very hard and slow process for him. He grew up in a "Christian" home where he was convinced that he was an evil depraved person because he did not feel attracted to girls. He tried dating all kinds of girls and only felt more miserable.

His coming around to acceptance that it as OK to be gay was slow and difficult. A combination of gay and straight friends really did him a disservice, by casually using all these slang terms that I'm sure they meant to be inviting and fun and friendly -- a kind of "welcome!" kind of thing -- but he just was in no way ready for that at all. They didn't mean anything by it but you know, that doesn't matter. He still cried on my shoulder that day.

And I've already said I'm sorry for overreacting in the other post - so this is not a defense or anything. But in my mind I am thinking - we never know where other people are really at, do we? So I even if I was gay I guess I'd still worry about being sensitive to that. That's all. I'm sorry for overreacting, like I said.

[LanternWaste]

73. It's weird, ya'know?

When I was in high school, I used the typical pejorative phrases as I just didn't know any better at the time. These days... well, these days, I really don't have code words. I'm almost afraid to. I can kinda see where some of the guys and gals on the thread got defensive about it because I figure if I used a code word or some such and got busted for it, I'd get a serious dressing down by the G/L person in question.

Coupla years ago, I was invited to the apartment of some of the guys I worked with. I thought they were roommates. When I came over, they made some drinks and some of their friends came over too. That's when they told me that I was the only straight guy in the apartment. After a moment of feeling more stupid than awkward, I suddenly got this deep fear of maybe having said something to them in the past that they might have taken the wrong way (regardless of being being gay or not though, they made the best damn martini I ever had!).

And that's where I'm at today: I'm too afraid to say *anything*, from a harmless joke to a mindless observation for fear it will be taken as an insult. To me, it's almost the using the word, "nigger". A lot of my friends and co-workers (well, they were co-workers when I was employed) use the word almost as a form of endearment (they're black, by the way), but I'm simply too damn worried about how what I said would be inferred.

I suppose there's no harm done when one gay person calls the other gay person "queer", "flamer", etc. But I don't feel comfortable even calling attention to it. Not because I'm uncomfortable with the question of someone being gay, but because I don't want to be perceived as "intolerant" or "hateful" or some such.

Weird, huh? But I guess that's one of the reason's I like DU so much. I can observe and ask questions and make observation w/o fear of instant judgment or being labeled a "gay basher". Does it help at all that I'm watching "Sound of Music" right now? (Man, I hope you guys know that was a joke meant to make *everyone* laugh.... :) )

[Bertha Venation]

127. Not so weird; understandable.

This is the land of drive-thru lawsuits. "Offend me? You're gonna pay!" Sheesh. People should chill. There is no constitutional right not to be offended.

I understand your fear. I have a buddy at work, an Afr-Amer., practicing Muslim woman. (To give you an idea, she wears no hijab, but fasts during Ramadan.) Even though we're buds, I have this irrational fear of stepping on her toes. She recently confessed to me that she has the same fear -- that she wanted to ask me how Mrs. V. and I met but was afraid such a question would be off limits. I told her it's no more off limits than me asking her where she met her husband. She laughed and we had a good discussion about the subject of such irrational worries.

[buddhamama]

74. no code

i'll either say, 'i think that person is gay (usually refering to a man)
or, 'i think she is a lesbian'.

[rucky]

81. Bats for the Yankees

??? seems to make sense

[TrogL]

102. Will everybody please settle down

It's a "camp" thing between gays.

I use:

• light in the loafers
  
• needs wrist exercises (ie. limp wristed)
  
• flamer
  
• queen
  
• various inarticulate moans
  

[A HERETIC I AM]

103. how about "She changes her own oil" or....

"now THAT guy uses Jiffy Lube"

i kinda like the double entendre

[ronnykmarshall]

117. Never heard those before!

:silly::silly::silly::silly:

[Bertha Venation]

124. I never heard these either. "Hmmm..." about "she changes her own oil:"

When I was about 18 I asked my dad to teach me how to change the oil in my car. He said "I don't even change my own oil anymore," and he handed me $20 to go buy an oil change.

Given that he rejects the notion that he could've spawned a lesbian, this is very interesting indeed.

[Selwynn]

107. Yup

This is a shameless bump becuase I want Bertha and Boob to see my last posts.

Heh.. bertha and boob.. just kind of rolls of the tounge. :)

[Brian_Expat]

109. I appreciate your thinking

But it also makes me feel good to see other people like me around. And when I see someone I think is family, I say "there's a brother/sister." If the person is intersexed or androgynous on purpose, I say "there's one of my cousins." I also use "cousins" for a group of fellow "family," regardless of gender. Just a silly thing I came up with. :)

[Booberdawg]

110. I did see your other posts

I've been dinking around with housework and laundry ----- I have a couple interviews next week and I've lost a LOT of weight and had to get some new clothes. Didn't want to leave the preparation to the last minute tomorrow.

There is something I want to look up about Idaho and then I'll go back and comment under the appropriate post of yours ...

[Bertha Venation]

118. LOL "bertha & boob"

you ain't right :P

[Sapphocrat]

111. family / member of the club / on the team -- n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

115. My own from SF

A "94114'er". That's the zip code for the Castro district in SF.

[ronnykmarshall]

119. Chili rice!

It's not a term, I just want to see how Ms. & Ms. V liked the chili rice from the recipe I sent them.

[Bertha Venation]

130. We haven't tried it yet.

We're trying to space evenly our sinfully rich and fatty dishes. Right now we're still on sweet potato casserole leftovers. I think I'll make chili rice as a side for Mrs. V.'s birthday dinner next month. Can't wait!

[ronnykmarshall]

121. Track Lighting

From "Steel Magnolias" ...... "all gay men have track lighting and are named David, Michael or Steve".

[arwalden]

123. "Two Men... One Cart... Fresh Pasta... YOU Figure It Out!"

From an episode of Designing Women... I think it was Annie Potts' character describing two men she saw at the market.

-- Allen

[ronnykmarshall]

125. That's great one

There are millions from "Will & Grace". My mom likes the one when Grace tossed something to Will and neither Jack or Will tried to catch it. Karen's reponce "Grace come on! The Gays don't catch."

[Bertha Venation]

133. that's beautiful. LOL n/t

[Bertha Venation]

132. b-b-but... You're Ronny. And what about Allen? And Terry?

I'm so confused!

[ronnykmarshall]

136. Still works

I've dated a "Steve" and my other half is a "Michael", so I think I still qualify.

[Obamarama]

138. Fascinating discussion here.....

First of all, I've read your posts, Selwynn, and think I have a handle on where you're coming from. I am happy to know that intelligent people - and you obviously fall into that category - can form their own opinions about gays and lesbians despite what they were taught to believe.

One point that I'd like to add that I've not seen discussed is that when gays and lesbians refer to themselves in terms that may seem stereo-typical and deragotory, it serves as a way to invalidate the negativity assigned the term by others who use it as a verbal weapon.

Here's a quote from a dissertation on "gay speak" or "lavendar language:"

"In his article “The Queen’s English: Metaphor In Gay Speech,” Barry Zeve said, “It is one thing to claim unity and pride; it is quite another to appropriate the language of your oppressors and turn their words into symbols of unity and pride” (Zeve 7). This is important in the incorporation of these words back into the larger language system because of the powerful effect it has in the “defusion of derogatory” meanings the words imply, as Zeve put it. He asks the question, “What earthly good does it do a teen bigot to call another boy on the bus a fag if that boy is already wearing the label fag across his chest?” (7).

Here's a link to the entire thesis called "The Evolution of the Gay Communication System." It's long and academic, but I think it's interesting:

http://www.ecok.edu/dept/english/faculty/lrp/langa3/jwm/discourseanalysis.html

[Skittles]

140. lol, I don't remember this conversation

did I say anything bad? I like to joke that my gay male friends are much more feminine than I am. And don't even get me started on transvestites and transgenders - I think it's a TRAVESTY when they have smoother skin and nicer looking legs than me. :O

[mitchtv]

141. we love "friends of Dorothy"

and find it an endearing term. for girls we use another term"lizzie"
, a corruption of Lezzie used by Partners's dumb striaght, sister, and we thought it was funny. I love 94114'r you must be near "rhinestone heights, and the "swish alps".