DU, I'm sorry and Peace

[youngred]

Democraticunderground. I love you.

but right now you are too much for me to handle. I come back for one day and its worse than when i left. When i found this community little more than a year ago it was with great relief andlove. You became my life force, my truth vehicle and somewhere where i found a family.

I gave what I could and spent hours on end pouring over your pages. and reading everything from the sublime to the ridiculous.

But I'm saying goodbye for a little while.

When you start to sound like a Jack Chick Tract, and fall for the stupidity that is a sham put on by the national media.

I've seen 1-2 threads on Bill Frist's constitutional ammendment. Not seen anything on what Dubya had to say on the matter, but Everywhere I go (even the damn lounge) my religion is singled out and assailed as one of degredation, bigotry and hatefulness. I have seen a faith system I regard as my current Best (not only path) derieded as the whore of babylon, and seen it urged that its members be fed to the lions. I have seen slanderous asides that serve no more purpose than as a pot-shot.

YOU ARE FALLING FOR THE SPIN!

The Catholic community in the United States has always been strongly democratic, but with attitudes like those expressed today I can see partially why it is drifting. You are seeing a Scapegoat being used that is common since the earliest days of this nations founding. You paint with so broad a brush.

I have done my best in my time here not to insult, degrade or tear the beliefs, feelings, or thoughts of any other poster here. I truly believe we all have our own paths set before us to walk, what we believe, belong to and act on is our own business and no higher authority tells us what to do, we do by determining what we feel is best. i'm sorry others cannot be decent enough to walk peacefully towards our common goals.

So i'm taking a break, I'm sorry but I can't deal with the bigotry, prejudice and ignorance any longer.

To my friends, I will be back, I just hope that some one considers when reading this the damage we are doing to ourselves with this incessant infighting and insensitivity (for it isn't just this issue, but also those of women's rights, race, the rights of gays and lesbians, and even our own candidate fighting that divides us horribly).

Peace walk with you all

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. Don't go...there are many of us who feel this very same way.

The past few days have irritated me beyond belief, and kept me from much work I should be doing. Sometimes when I see the stereotypical threads, and the bashing and the name calling I want to scream, but nobody's perfect, we all do it-unintentionaly I like to believe. We need people like you to spot it, call it and make us better people. I hope you reconsider.

Take care, Laura

[liberalnurse]

2. I'm getting the same feeling....

I come here to process LBN and unite as a democrat with fellow dem's. Now all I see tonight is attacks and bashes. Many are from posters under 50 posts but not all....

It feels like a walk down skid row......creepy.

[kentuck]

3. I've been here a long time....

and I agree, this is about the worst it has ever been. The hatred and negativity are so abundant, I have no idea how we can win the next election with such ideas. This response will probably get a response telling us about the virtues of hatred and negativity?

[XanaDUer]

4. I think taking a break is a good idea

sometimes we need to get away for a break.

Peace to you.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

5. Hey

You work so hard trying to defend your opinions. When I came here in Oct. 2001, it was so different. People actually read the threads and listened with an open mind. Now all I see is other people being ignorant. Zack, in expressing your views, I've found you are always civil and intelligent, well informed. If other people are here, sometimes I'm not sure if they are listening, or if they are just repeating to themselves what they want to hear. Hang in there.

Maggie

[thermodynamic]

6. I wonder how my ex feels

If nothing else, read the final paragraph - but for your edification, the reading of this entire passage might be of benefit if you truly do want prejudice and bigotry to end.

I don't know why I still feel for my ex's conflict and pain, but I do. I know what I said and perhaps I was a bit heated at the time. But I explained why I felt that way (I usually don't bring up my personal life because, come on, it's personal).

If you were gay, you'd probably understand the conflict a bit better. But like I said, my ex was both gay and a devout Catholic and he really was/is in a sorry state as a person. I wish I could have helped him feel okay about his homosexuality. (at the time my thoughts on religion were different, but I've changed since then. Interaction with people has that effect on me.)

And with high ranking officials denouncing ME and everybody else like me, I'm sorry. People do not like to be stepped on and mistreated for long periods of time. I'm surprised that Stonewall was the ONLY incident where GLBT folk had had enough and had rioted. Bush and the Vatican are the ones promoting the bigotry and are only inciting more riots and related situations. Are the rest of us forced to have the pies hitting our faces from these people and not speak up in anger? We're just reacting, AND RIGHTFULLY SO! WE are not starting the problem; we're forced to live because THEY are the ones with the problems and seek to dominate us with their idea of lifestyle. Hell, WE are even maimed and killed because the persons maiming and killing us think God told them it was a good thing to do!!!

And WE are the bigoted ones because we're reacting to THEIR bigotry, which is far more obvious and hateful?! :eyes:

It's easy for you to walk away from a plethora of opinions just because you only face the one issue of religion; the side that just happens to be the side starting this catfight. But get real; these peoples' comments are hurting us and you simply cannot expect to see us lie down and take it. Screw that. I'm tired of being walked over and I will speak up. I'm flat out sick of the treatment.

This is nothing away to walk from, but it's your choice. If you think the reactionaries are worse than the bullies, all I can say to you is "I'm sorry for feel that way, but you're wrong."

I will ask this: Should I be insensitive to those who are insensitive against me? (at least temporarily, I want those against me to know how I feel before I try to make peace and reasoning with them. It helps them to know what it's like to be a victim of prejudice and hatred, especially since they are the source of it - indirectly, directly, or otherwise.) Again, any religion that promotes hatred of people should NOT be taken seriously or with any credibility. That's how I feel and I'm damn proud to say it.

[WheresWaldo]

7. I understand, but ask you reconsider...

I'm one of those long time users who rarely posts, and I understand your frustrations. Yes, some of the forums and threads have a lot of negativity to them (in the form of posters that are here to argue rather than debate and learn). I can empathize with you and understand your sentiments, some of the threads i've followed make me want to scream. Nevertheless, their is a value to DU, and that value diminshes when people with a personal viewpoint, choose to leave. I ask that you reconsider, there is an ignore button that you could use, I'm aware that many DU'ers do. Nevertheless, its your choice. Have a good one.

[ParanoidPat]

8. Don't become another victim of the trolls from AR15.....

....use the 'instant ignore all' feature conveniently integrated into your browsers 'back' button! :evilgrin:

Don't forget to hit the 'Alert' button and send the message 'flame bait' before moving on to a more civil thread! :)

If enough people take a moment to express their displeasure at the same few jerks who continually post those threads perhaps we can move the Admins and Mods to hold more funerals!

[inthecorneroverhere]

9. please don't go!

Although I am not a member of a particular faith, at one time almost 3 years ago I almost converted to a faith that I believe the poster knows.

I really don't want to see good people who have a conscience and a belief rooted in ethics leave this forum!!!

If I didn't have some kind of conscience and belief in ethics that is ultimately rooted in Judaeo-Christian-Islamist teachings, I would just be a Nietzchian-Sozial Darwinist along with the fre*pers!

I don't even follow the threads that bash faith and beliefs here. Interesting sidelight - my father was an old-syle agnostic going back to pretty much the Beat era of the late '40s early 1950s. However, he never 'bashed' any religion like some of these extremists do. When I was a child we went to an episcopalian church. My mother was sort of areligious, but let me tell you - she certainly believed in a moral code of ethics. Whether this came from her Methodist childhood upbringing or her friends in college, I don't know. I do know, however, that my parents' code of ethics which was very strong, certainly did not come from any of the fundamentalist Protestant churches!

I follow the stuff about news events and the 'fun stuff' about cats and dogs and the like.

Please don't leave! If this forum were a financial investment, and resources were being lost, I might understand, but it's more of a discussion thing. I stay here although of course I disagree with certain folks both to the left and to the right of me.

I definitely believe that conscience has a role in politics!

[berry]

10. I guess I missed the worst threads these last few days, but I think

you're right to take a breather. Those creepy posters can't touch you, not really, but they can and do sometimes pollute the air we all breath. Fresh air, that's what you need. But do come back!

As I said, I missed the threads that have gotten to you. But I was wondering if you have followed the emotional exchanges over the Pryor nomination? That accusation of Catholic-bashing (in the "Catholics need not apply" ad) affected Senators Leahy and Durbin deeply. I think it would be worth it to try to track down the c-span videos of them in the Judiciary Committee and on the Senate floor. But I'm not sure how one goes about finding that (except the printed record of course, but it helps to SEE them--they were heroic!)

But anyway, there is a short version. Did you see the press conference of the Interfaith Alliance? I think it was hastily assembled--and all the more amazing for that. Father Drinan, Rabbi Modine, and 3 protestant clergypeople stood up and spoke out about the poisonous atmosphere of late, and about religious tolerance and what it means. Leahy and Durbin also spoke--from the heart. It's only 50 minutes--so I urge you to watch it. It will sooth your soul (I think). Don't mind the dry description of it--it's really wonderful!

Here's the link:

http://video.c-span.org:8080/ramgen/fdrive/15days/e072903_religiousviews.rm?start=11.5

Interfaith Alliance Examination of the Religious Views of Judicial Nominees
Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) provides introductory remarks before a panel desiring to keep religious views and practices separate from judicial decisions and process.
7/29/2003: WASHINGTON, DC: 50 min.

WARNING--C-span deletes these videos after about 2 weeks, so you've got only until about mid-August!

See you later? Take care!

[JanMichael]

11. My only advice...

This is only an internet message board, nothing more, nor less.

While people exchange ideas it's still just a weird little figment of a system's imagination.

There's only one way to be certain about anyone's identity and that's a face to face and even that can be suspect!

Try not to take things so personally.

[ulysses]

12. Zack!

I'll trust you to not be gone too long. Be well, man.

[Blue_Chill]

13. I wish you wouldn't leave

but I understand.

[Nicholas_J]

14. Sorry to see you go.

Ypu jave always strucl me as an highly intelligent, and very thoughtful for on so very young

I remember a something of a religious nature you once stated that sounded much like the very basis of a relatively new religion and while you are on a hiatus from DU, you may want to look at their site. They are the second fastest growing independent religion in the world, and during the Vietnam War, memebers of this religion were initially seelcted as go-betweeins between the North Vietnamese, and the U.S. as they were trusted for their honesty and comittment to interantional peace, though they do have a concept of just war:


www.us.bahai.org

http://www.bahai.com/

I think you will find these sites very informative, you do not have to leave your own religion to participate in their meetings, they DO NOT PROSELYTISE, and they are very kind and compassionate people. THe members of their faith are being horribly treated by the Shi'ite clerics and Muslims of Iran, and the U.N. has tried to interfere in the plight that they face in many Muslim Nations. I think it would interest you, just to study, for a while.

I am not a Baha'i, but I have known of them and known many of them for almost thirty years. IT will be very different than what you have experienced on DU. Members are not supposed to take part in political campaigns or politicking, but are allowed to vote their private conscience in elections. They beleive that the kind of petty bickering and political attacks that are so prevalent here on DU are counterproductive for doing the best things for humanity.
The son of the religions founder was the basis for Kahlil Gibran's book, "The Prophet". This will be one place in which you will see no one attacking anyone elses reliious or any other belief.

Good luck and I hope to see you around here again eventually.

Nick

[anti_shrub]

15. Not to sound callous

but when the country is being run by right wing fundy nuts who want to force their brand of Christianity down everyone's throat, you have to expect that its going to cause some anti-religion backlash.

[JohnKleeb]

16. yeah and fundies are protestant mostly

Red here is a Catholic like me and like him I find myself getting angry over the anti Catholicism too. Well Zack I understand and respect your reason, I will miss you and no doubt Maggie and the others will do, I will miss you man. Maybe you could give me a little im one of these days. Ive always considered you a great friend in fact I think you were probably one of the first DUers I really befriended. I am sorry to see you go man.

[CatWoman]

17. Take a break ...............................

do what you have to do.

I still love you :loveya:

[Susang]

18. Youngred, you know I love you

But come on!

Go ahead and take a break, but don't blame others for it. I have seen many posts over the past two plus years I've been here that I would consider offensive. I've always thought that standing up for what I thought was right and not backing down was the way to go.

I feel that people here are decent, for the most part, and that conflict is a natural part of thinking and questioning the status quo. Since organized religion is part of the status quo, I think it's a valuable discussion.

[jus_the_facts]

19. Peace to you too Zack.....

......I miss ya already...take care sweetie! {{{HUGS}}} :* :* :loveya:

[Mz Pip]

20. As a community

grows in size so does its diversity. DU is getting big and therefore will have people who wil be vocal about things that may either offend you or not be of much consequence to you either.

THere are plenty of issues and threads that I just bite my tongue (or my fingers) and refuse to respond to. It's not worth it.

I used to be Catholic. I left the Church years ago and do not regret it, but I respect my family and friends who still retain their beliefs.

Much of the backlash is not directed at the individual Catholics but at the powers within the Church that many practicing Catholics do not agree with.

Please, don't let the views of a few vocal members drive you away. I have learned to ignore certain threads because I have neither the time or inclination to get into flame wars. Hang in here. WE need people like you who are young and involved and passionate.

Peace.

MzPip
:dem:

[Rowdyboy]

21. NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO..PLEASE NO!!!!!

Please reconsider. You give legitimacy to many of us who have not been here nearly so long. Your voice is needed. Please reconsider...

[opihimoimoi]

22. Another victim to the trolls and moles

pity.

Zack, be well my friend. Heal yourself with fine food, wine, and good friends.

[thom1102]

23. Go if you must,

And go in peace. I'll miss you, buddy. I've always found you funny and smart, and will miss your insight. Come back though! I'll still be here!:hi:

[GOPisEvil]

24. Peace Zack!

When you're ready, you'll be back.

Take care - you know where to find us if you need us! :hi:

[supernova]

25. Oh Zack

Take a break. Chill out. Spend time doing other things you like in the real world. You're a kind, intelligent, thoughtful young man. And I do mean MAN.

There's plenty of threads that I don't respond to for exactly the reasons you're posting here. It's just not worth my getting gray hairs every time some disgruntled person has their knickers in a knot over something the Church (and I do mean all of us) does.

Is the Church (and again I'm using the generic sense here) always right? Of course not. Just like us individuals, there's a heck of a lot of room for improvement. You know that. I know that. All the spiritual folks here at DU know that. So what do we do? We keep our involvement, we keep talking with our communities. We speak up with more generous views whenever narrow interrpretations of the bible rear their heads. And there's a lot of work to do.

Do the disgruntled see that? No, of course not. Too blinded to see by their own (justifyable) pain. And I don't expect them to. That's not your fault in particular. This fight has developed over eons, and it will not go away overnight.

What matters is that you know you are doing the right things for yourself and for your path. We'll get there eventually, Zack. What matters is persistance. ;-)

[cmd]

26. I understand, but please stay

I need your insight on issues. You are among the young and I among the old. It's important that we hear each other. Peace.

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. I hate to see you go...

...but I love watching you leave.

oh wait, you're not a chick.

nevermind.

:)

[Az]

28. You will be missed

I am sorry that you feel your religion has been assaulted. It was certainly not you that dragged it into the fray. Unfortunately christianity is a diverse belief system and its wide strokes cover more than some would like. There is a very vocal, very active faction of religious belief that is degrading, hateful, and bigotted. We need your voice here to overcome that and show those of us that do not share your religion that these hateful people do not speak for all of your religion.

It is not easy to represent your beliefs. Particularly while trying to respect others beliefs. You will be assailed by people from all sides. The fanatics from your own side will call you foolish for even trying while the fanatics from the opposition will place the troubles of the world at your feet. I think you will find this is true in any story where someone is trying to champion an ideal. Take a look at the bible to see if you find some connection to this notion therein.

We are cautioned not to discuss politics and religion in this society. Could any warning be more dangerous? Politics and religion are two key determining factors of society. To simply ignore them and allow them to go where they will on their own is foolish and ignorant. We need to take an active interest in them. Examine them. Dissect them. We need to understand them. Including those that we do not necissarily hold ourselves. By ignoring them we give them more power. By understanding them we come to control them.

I hope you find your way back to this domain as it may not be perfect but it tries. And that may be the most important thing of all.

[Throckmorton]

29. Everything in its own good time.

"Donkeys live a long time. None of you have ever seen a dead donkey."

Benjamin the Donkey, Animal Farm

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BigMcLargehuge]

33. Rule Number 2

2. Treat people with respect. Don't be rude or bigoted. Discuss the message, not the messenger.

Youngred's post is in reaction to a whole lot of religious/anti-religious battling going on in GD. Hoping he chokes after admitting you don't know what he's talking about is the trademark of the disruptor.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[supernova]

37. Not a Dale Carnegie student, I see.

n/t.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lifeform]

39. maybe I should apologize?

for what. defending myself? fuggetaboudit.

[supernova]

42. Actually you should aplogize

Without knowing anything at all about DU, you insulted the original poster. Youngred is very highly respected here and has very many friends.

Again, you're not doing yourself any favors, bub.

[lifeform]

45. okay

I apologize for getting carried away. Like another thread says, I'm in a bad mood today.

[supernova]

49. Then go post in the bad mood thread

You and Demman could commiserate about whatever is bothering you. That's what we all do.

If you are able to stick around long enough, you'll be able to post your own "bad mood" thread.

[lifeform]

50. yep - think I'll shut up now.

.

[catpower2000]

43. Are you still here?

*some lounge mod blearily drinks coffee, finger hovering over the nuke button*

Not only will you be banned, but they'll erase your posts and it'll be like you were never here. :)

Cat

[lifeform]

44. why?

I don't get it. Do you feel powerful saying that?

[catpower2000]

47. No. It's just the truth.

Let me explain it to you simply. This is a MODERATED forum. I don't know if you crawled in here from some usenet shitstorm where it was okay to post insults and slurs, but it's not like that here. You've posted nothing but vitriol since you got here and that is against the rules, which you apparently didn't read when you agreed to follow them in order to create your account. Therefore, you will be banned.

Cat

[lifeform]

48. who made you god?

.

[catpower2000]

52. Your response makes no sense.

I do not own this website, a person named Skinner does. He made the rules, which you are not following. I was giving you information, not handing down a verdict.

Cat

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lifeform]

41. you're probably right about that

but this post is self serving spewing crud.

when did quantity substitute for quality?

[Az]

46. Its called communication

This is a community. It ebbs and flows. It changes over time. Sometimes it takes a direction that some do not like. They may try to hold the change back but if the community becomes something they no longer wish to be part of they may depart. This is not an easy thing. There are still people here that they like. Leaving is painful. When they express their reasons for leaving it behooves us to listen to them.

It is you that are doing the disrupting here. You who are spewing. You have no involvement here. You have no connection. There are no attachements and yet you feel as though you can sit in judgement of another. Imagine if I stormed into your house during an emotional moment and told you to get over it. I would not expect to be well recieved. Same goes here. This is our house. Until you show a committment to it on par with those you criticize you have not earned the right to dismiss others feelings so easily.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

55. Quantity didn't substitute for quality.

If you read his posts, you'd understand that his quantity represents quality as well. Of your posts, I have yet to see one that is "quality". :eyes:

[catpower2000]

34. Oh, honey, don't worry, you'll be back...

it is discouraging at times, you've heard me bitch about DU as much as I've heard you do it--no wait, I bitch a LOT MORE. :) But you know, there are a lot of good people here, and the good outweighs the bad most of the time. It's always just a few assholes that ruin it for everyone. Remember how many good people are here, and come back to us when you're ready.

I'll call you this weekend, take care sweetie,

Cat :loveya:

[curse10]

36. Zack, ya know I love ya

:-)

Take a break, it's good for the soul.

[AWD]

51. youngred, don't make me kick your butt

You and I go way back, brother....you've always had a ton of energy and motivation.

Keep it up, whether you stay or go.

But if you leave, I'm gonna give you a butt-whoopin'. :spank:

Peace with whatever you choose,
AWD

[newyawker99]

53. Zack my friend......

I hope your time away is brief. Your voice is very important to this site and I would hate to see you gone for a long period of time. You know you have my support and you know that I :loveya:

Take care of yourself and return to us quickly.

[hunter]

54. Keep in touch...

Youngred, I always appreciate what you write.

But lately I've been ignoring all the Religion-Christian-Catholic bashing threads. In any case, I've never let them get under my skin, probably because I used to live and die on religion threads back when Usenet was all shiny and new.

These days I don't even need a flamesuit when I visit such fiery places as DU. I'm protected by a thick layer of scar tissue and madness... But I would never recommend you follow the same path as I did.

Take good care of your "truth vehicle" and it will give you many years of trouble free service. Alas, my own "truth vehicle" is very battered; too many times I have succumbed to the road rage.

Peace be with you my friend,

Hunter Hamilton