Feminist view of marriage proposal?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

I would love to get the input from a feminist on this topic.

I just got engaged to my wonderful and amazing girlfriend (fiancee now!) this weekend! :bounce: :party: :bounce:

We had discussed this topic for a while, and it was entirely a foregone conclusion. After all, I wasn't in any way, shape, or form keeping it a secret that I was going to propose to her. As such, I planned on taking my time and really plan a special proposal. I wanted to make it special. So after the ring was decided upon by both of us (family heirloom), I waited about a month to do the deed, waiting for the right moment to be presented.

During this time, my fiancee (a strong feminist and graduate of a woman's college), apparently, grew increasingly anxious and very frustrated. It was something she was eagerly anticipating for about 6 months. Originally, I was going to do it on New Year's Eve, but we had just finished moving into our new apartment and our plans for the night had been cancelled after a disastrous and stressful trip to IKEA. Being that grumpy, tired, and in pain was not what I considered prime conditions for a proposal, I was going to wait a week or two and make a special night of it instead. In the days that followed, she started getting VERY emotional, though I really was clueless as to why.

I finally proposed, realizing THIS was the source of the problem, and afterwards, she showed me this article: http://www.kamywicoff.com/excerpt.html

She said that pretty well encapsulated how she felt.

So here's one passage I thought was interesting: Lately this “ritual,” this “formality,” this bit about his being the proposer and my being the proposee, had begun to seem like a lot more than a formality. It had begun to seem like real substantial power that had been placed squarely into Andrew’s manly hands. And lately it had begun to seem that for all my bluster and despite all my efforts, the gap between me and those women was closing in fast.

So I guess I'd like to know if other feminists felt the same way about marriage proposal. I feel really shitty about how I handled the matter now, but quite frankly, never in my wildest dreams did I think that taking my time with the situation would have such consequences, especially considering that I have never once tried to "seize power" or any such thing, and, of course, the fact that she knew I was going to propose in the very near future.

I want to understand better so that I might be more considerate of such feelings in the future. I don't want to be a big dumb animal (aka idiot husband). I don't ever want her to feel like I'm trying to control anything or that she's anything less than an equal partner, whether or not it's intentional. Thanks in advance for your comments!

[Dastard Stepchild]

1. Hmmm... marriage can be such a conflicting desire for some women....

Myself included. I wanted marriage, but feared the loss of my RAGING, feminist independence. :D

This is why I personally didn't like the traditional proposal idea myself. But I let my guy know about that well in advance and we planned something together that was way more us. We both got engagement mementos at the same time and did other things more symbolic of who we were and how we saw marriage and our relationship.

I think you acted in earnest and out of love - how wonderful! Just share those thoughts mentioned above with her, and encourage her to share her concerns with you. It helps. I had very lengthy chats with my guy about the institution of marriage and my concerns prior to getting married, and it really set the stage for our relationship. And she is not alone - I think more women struggle with this conflict than let on.

Wait til you have the "name" talk. :)

Congrats, by the way!!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Actually, she wants to take my last name

I was definitely cool about this, mainly because my last name is very difficult to pronounce, but she has no problems with it at all.

I think the whole thing, like you said in your first line, is a bit of an identity crisis for her, and I'm trying my best to mitigate that. I'd like to think that she was so eager for me to propose because of willingness to do just that in the first place.

Thank you very much on the congrats!! :-) :bounce: :toast:

[Dastard Stepchild]

6. Of course...

It's a big change for men and women, but going at it together, as it sounds like you wish to do, makes a big difference. It takes time to balance independence with marriedness, but as I have learned, if you marry well and have a great mate, it's a wonderful life to grow into. :)

[northzax]

33. she's taking "stampede"?

damn, her birth name must be real bad!

congrats to you both!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

37. You didn't know "Stampede" was Italian?

Thanks so much!! :-)

[northzax]

46. oh, Stampede!

meaning 'he that suckers a better woman into marriage' little known secondary latin translation.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

58. I live up to my name nicely.

My dad is so proud! :cry: :D

[unpossibles]

5. re: the name talk. haha! My wife and I both agreed that she should keep her name

for a variety of reasons: professional, personal, symbolic of our mutual independence, the fact that my name gets butchered almost every day even by friends and I almost took her name instead, and since we are not interested in having children, that is not a huge deal either.

Every now and then, people react funny if they find out - and sometimes we don't bother to say anything, so when someone calls me Mr. _______ instead of my name, I answer. lol.

Good luck and congrats to the OP! Remember that communication and understanding go a long way, and try to never take each other for granted (or "granite" for the freeper trolls... lol)

:D

[Dastard Stepchild]

7. I tried every possible name scenario....

At first I kept my name legally and went by that. Didn't quite like it. Then I took his name legally and went by that. Didn't quite like it. Then I legally hyphenated and went by that. HATED IT. :)

In the end, I remained legally hyphenated, but go by my maiden name. And I like it. :)

[unpossibles]

8. we considered either creating a brand new name for both of us or combining them

but the combos did not work at all. We still might try a new name someday though. A couple I know did this and are now legally Marvelous which is freaking awesome.

:)

[Dastard Stepchild]

51. That is quite marvelous...

:)

We talked about this, but could never agree. And the combining of our last names results in the most horrendous German mishmash - either of us could take it very seriously!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

22. Well, the reason she's keeping my name is simple...

Though long and complex, my last name is a very nice Italian last name. Plus, being that she has no real ethnic background and I'm nearly 100% Italian, it's a nice heritage to have, especially for our kids. We talked about changing both our last names to my mom's maiden name so that we're both compromising, but being that I've already decided to go by my middle name instead of my first name, we didn't want to piss off my parents by COMPLETELY changing my name.

Thank you very much!!

[grace0418]

3. Congratulations Vash! That was a very interesting read.

It is such a difficult thing for forwarding-thinking, open-minded women AND men to navigate. I think ultimately your reasons for wanting to make it a bit more special override the delay in doing it. All will be forgotten in a short while as excitement about your new life together and all the plans ramp up.

You sound like you'll make a wonderful husband to even be worried about this. That consideration alone is worth a lot.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Thank you very much!

I just feel like an ass. I would've never done such a thing intentionally.

I hope you're right that I will make a wonderful husband, because she assuredly deserves one. :hug:

[Missy Vixen]

11. I think you'll be a wonderful husband, too

>I hope you're right that I will make a wonderful husband, because she assuredly deserves one.<

I'm sure you did just fine. What a lovely thing to say. I know she thinks she's the lucky one!
All wishes for every happiness, now and in the future, for you and your fiancee.

:toast:
Julie

[grace0418]

13. Sigh... that is so romantic.

Never forget to say things like that to her and you'll be happy for the rest of your life!

[crispini]

9. I wonder if this is one of those planner / no planner things.

I am an inveterate organizer. My life is scheduled six months out. I am really, REALLY good at getting things done. I have to be; I'm a single career woman and getting things done is part of my JOB, of my M.O., so to speak. Now -- not to be sexist here -- but I *have* noticed that a lot of guys are not so big on the planning part of things. Hidy, ho, everything will work out when it works out, dum de dum. And this shit drives me UP THE WALL. Hello, things to do, people to see, pick a date, and let's rock and roll! Life's short, carpe diem! Anyway, that is how I would have felt if it were ME in that boat. Not sure if it's quite so much of a male / female thing as it is a planner / no planner thing. Maybe. :shrug:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. Perhaps

We definitely fit those roles you describe. :shrug:

[Totallybushed]

10. Congratulations on

your upcoming nuptials.

Just my own opinion, but where the author went wrong is encapsulated in the following line.

But it seemed to me that some things could be safely left unsaid, things that had been understood between us from the beginning.

Nothing important should ever be left unsaid between men and women. Ladies, we do not read minds. If something is bothering you, stop hinting around at it, making us both miserable, and just come out and tell us. It's neither fair, nor in conformance with reality, to expect us to express our love the same way you do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. Thanks muchly!

You're right on the mind reading thing, but here's the catch...

I've found in many instances, with my fiancee and in other relationships over the years, they often don't understand themselves why they're upset until after the fact. I had no idea the problem was THIS complex, only that there was a problem. Which, of course, can make matters very unsettling. How can you fix a problem when you don't know what it is?!

[Totallybushed]

30. " How can you fix

a problem when you don't know what it is?" My point, exactly. There a a number of things my wife has been frustrated with me about over the years, but the only one of any consequence that I've gotten frustrated with her about (at least as I'm remembering it right now, :shrug:) is her getting mad, and me not knowing why.

Even when I have an idea why, I've been wrong, so I don't volunteer any reasons to her about why she might be mad. Why throw gasoline on a raging fire? So I've come to a solution that works for me. I ask her. Three times. After that, I just ignore the situation until she's ready to tell me what the problem is.

Might not work for you, though, so use this technique cautiously if the occasion arises. And it will.

[nini]

12. I think a 'proposal' doesnt' make sense if it was already discussed..

..and agreed on.

Doing so seems to negate the 'equal' partnership in my mind.. it was a mutual decision therefore you officially asking seems odd.

However, if you want to both have a special moment to make it official that is one thing - but that too should be a mutual decision on how and when.


I guess I just don't get all the traditions with some stuff. The walking down the aisle of the woman to be 'given' to a man also makes me nuts, but to each his/her own.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

15. She's definitely NOT being "given away" by her dad.

Like I said, there are a few things I'm old fashioned about, and this was one of them. I certainly did not foresee the issue.

[nini]

17. Even with what I said.. I don't think you did anything wrong

What you did was out of love and wanting to do something special for her - that is NEVER wrong.


Congrats by the way. I wish you many years of happiness together. :toast:

[Bucky]

16. The only way to make up for such a horrible faux pas is to have a wonderful marriage.

Then her revenge will be complete.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. Oh, she'll have her revenge, don't you worry.

It's all good, because I've got a few things I've been (playfully) holding over her head too, so now she's got one up on me. :D

[tigereye]

18. that's a complex one

my husband and I decided mutually. We didn't really care about marriage, either of us. I was and still am to some extent, a 70s- era feminist. And both my husband and I are more from that punk "oh my god, I forgot to have children" generation. We lived together for many years, and then one day, as time was progressing, at a party, we both decided to get married and set a date. There was no engagement ring, and we didn't have a diamond wedding ring, or fancy wedding. It was all pretty low key, if in fact, any wedding can be that way. ;)

But I can really appreciate the disconnect (and the "sandwich" aspect) the writer feels and your fiance's response to it, of the generation of women who want both aspects - the romantic proposal from the guy as well as the independent/mutual decision. It's hard to get past those cultural and gender traditions. It's funny, too, since most women are financially independent, why should the guy have to ask her? Why can't both parties ask each other? That seems to be the way out of the dilemma you pose. Since you have to be able to discuss most things somewhat reasonably during marriage, why not start now? (I'm speaking hypothetically here.)

And congratulations on your engagement, Vash!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. Thank you very much!

Honestly, in our situation, we came to the agreement to marry mutually... it was just the act of proposal itself that I wanted to do. It's not like I was one of those guys that are like, "Well, maybe sometime down the road..." or "We've got all our lives! Let's take our time!" I was only waiting on making it official. But you're right - it is something that should be decided mutually. I can't imagine it being anything but.

[MissMillie]

23. I guess my thought is

that barring someone holding a gun to the guy's head, pretty much any marriage proposal from him is going to be romantic.

If the guy and I had talked about it, and it was all pretty much a foregone conclusion, and then the proposal seemed postponed, I might worry that he were having second thoughts.

[izzybeans]

24. Mrs. Izzybeans felt the same dissonance. I printed this essay out for her. I know

she will be able to reflect on that point in her and our life.

She felt her conflict was the result of growing up with mixed messages. Her hippie parents still read her the fairytales as a child...is the best way I could encapsulate what she expressed to me. Some of those mixed messages were from me. I am one of those that felt my relationship was validated during odd and random moments (simple smiles, squeezes of the hand, conversations, etc.) and did not think an orchestrated ritual was that important to me. She, on the other hand, felt caught in between. As a consequence she felt as if she was pressuring me merely by bringing up the subject, even if it was me doing the "bringing up". Simple conversations such as "what are your thoughts about marriage" carried with them an implicit fear, on her part, that she was pushing me in directions I did not want to go. I however was completely oblivious to it at the time. I did not feel pressured. I felt like we were reconstructing a tired ritual in our own image (to be romantic about it). I had always planned to marry her. Through our discussions we decided how we would like to get married we decided we wanted to party, to celebrate. We didn't want an archane ceremony that bored that pants of the children because we knew the grandmas and grandpas would cry just the same.

Our discussions and my not so smooth attempts to have rings made for her eventually led her to suspect any semi-romantic event might be "the" night. I could tell this and we didn't talk about it until afterwards. But Mrs. Beans sounds very similar to your fiancee with regards to her feelings. I could tell it was wearing on her. I had hoped for a moment she would not suspect and all the key moments passed, too obvious. And so one morning I made her breakfast and left her note to join me in the shower. I proposed then, before work.

I really wish the "power was in her womanly hands". Yet the suspense and the dissonance actually added to the excitement once we actually got married. However, If I knew then what I know now I would asked her to have a shower much sooner. We also both came to the realization that the validation provided by a marriage is not for the couple, but for the community and family. That is also an important point to the essay you linked in the op.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. Thank you so much for your response.

Wow, you really hit the nail on the head. I am very relieved to hear someone tell nearly the exact same story that I just experienced. I mean, really, it was almost completely exact there. Thank you so much for sharing!

[izzybeans]

26. No problem. I think this is a common experience. many of our friends are getting married very soon

One of them proposed this weekend too. Nearly all of them have felt this. You both are not alone.

[Orsino]

27. I think that there doesn't have to be a proposal, as such.

My wife and I began discussing marriage the night we met, and it sort of just growed. A few months later, we made it official by telling other folks.

I guess that if neither partner is sure of the other's feelings, a proposal is a nice way to jump-start the discussion. If anyone asks me or my wife, though, we didn't have a "proposal." I couldn't even tell you exactly how we got to the point of announcing a betrothal. It just felt right, and it was mutual.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

28. That probably would've been better.

I was just being a little too old fashioned on this one. Oh well. :-(

[Orsino]

29. It sounds as though you did fine.

Y'all kept the lines of communication open, and have weathered the storm.

Best wishes!

[SoyCat]

31. This may sound very strange but we never had any semblance of a proposal. It was just assumed that

we would eventually marry. On our fifth anniversary we did get married and we had no vows and no ceremony beyond going to the courthouse.

I did take my husband's surname but only because I detested my own.

All that was over ten years ago and we're quite in love and *quite equal*.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

36. Doesn't sound strange at all.

Sounds preferable to me, actually. :-)

[SoyCat]

54. Thank you!

[CanuckAmok]

32. Oh, for Christ's sake....

Marriage is a contract. What each party brings in to the contract, along with what each party expects from the contract, defines it.

Custom-tailor your marriage to your needs; it's nobody else's business how you define marriage, and it absolutely does not have to conform to someone else's simplistic, paranoid dogma.

[SoyCat]

34. I think we view marriage the same way.--

:toast:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. Your reaction was mine initially.

I quite frankly didn't understand at all any of the societal power struggle issues, because they absolutely do not exist in our relationship.

The problem for my fiancee was more of an identity crisis kind of thing. She was/is trying to reconcile her feminist beliefs and independence with the notion that she WANTS some of those more traditional things, like being proposed to and such. It's all internal, really, and like so many gracious posters have indicated, it's something that will quickly disappear when she truly realizes what you said and that it's OUR marriage and not someone else's arcane idea of it.

[CanuckAmok]

40. Feminism = the right to make your own choices.

Anything beyond that is just another useless religion.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

59. Yes and no.

I think this whole situation speaks to the psychological ramifications of historical subjugation. Even in a situation completely free of any power struggles, the larger history involved plays an enormous role. It's hard for me, as I think it is for most men, to grasp this.

And this can be applied to other situations as well, such as with race relations. Even if one has never experienced a moment of the problem, the mere awareness of it can be very powerful.

[Book Lover]

38. Without reading anyone else's comments, here are mine

What is the point of the act of proposing in general? To ask someone if they want to marry you, right? As you explain it, you and she had already asked and answered this question before you even decided to put a diamond ring on her hand. So what was the point of the ritual of the proposal? To make you happy, it sounds like to me. No problem there; all well and good. So why not identify a definite date for the proposal, just as you are going to for the wedding? There was never going to be any spontaneity about you going down on your knee, so why string her (and you!) along, waiting and waiting for some magical moment to spring forth?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

39. Because I'm an idiot?

I don't know why not, obviously.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

41. I think marriage proposals are rather sexist on the whole.

Please, come and live with me! I'll take care of you!

Then again, much of the institution is. Wearing engagement ring? Oh, look who I belong to! Changing one's name? Oh, look who I belong to!

What makes it the most sexist of all is that it is NEVER the man doing any of these things. The man is never wearing an engagement ring, changing his name, being on the receiving end of the proposal. He is always doing these things to the woman, as if he were the deision maker and she a pretty doll along for the ride.

[bicentennial_baby]

42. I proposed to Sniffa the other night

:)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

43. That's cool.

:)

But that's far from the norm, y'know? I think the best thing of all would be to come to a mutual arrangement, without all the pomp and ceremony, but of course, that's just MHO.

[bicentennial_baby]

49. I agree

we're already a non-trad relationship, but yes, I agree :)

[Left Is Write]

50. My husband and I did agree to marry by mutual agreement.

The "proposal" came afterward, and it was "pomp and ceremony" we both enjoyed. It meant something personal to us. There was nothing anti-feminist about it.

Even though my husband did not wear an engagement ring, he does wear a wedding ring. We both do. They are symbols of our love and commitment to each other and to our family, not shackles of ownership.

[Missy Vixen]

44. Have you been married or in a committed relationship?

>Please, come and live with me! I'll take care of you!<

Actually, the purpose of marriage (or any committed relationship,) is to make the other person, or persons, part of your family. You belong to them. They belong to you. It's not only in the eyes of society, it's witnessed and supported by those who know you the best.

>Wearing engagement ring? Oh, look who I belong to!<

It's a symbol that states you have agreed that you will live your life with another person (or, again, persons,) and commit yourself solely to them.

>Changing one's name? Oh, look who I belong to!<

A name change signifies that you have joined that family. It's voluntary. Most with children choose to have the same name to eliminate confusion and/or questions of parentage.

>What makes it the most sexist of all is that it is NEVER the man doing any of these things. The man is never wearing an engagement ring, changing his name, being on the receiving end of the proposal.<

This is not true. It depends on the family involved, and how they choose to express their commitment to each other.

>He is always doing these things to the woman, as if he were the deision maker and she a pretty doll along for the ride.<

Most don't ask unless they already have a good idea what the answer will be. The vast majority of relationships heading for marriage or civil commitment have already had a discussion about how to formalize the relationship. Contrary to your belief, those who prefer to be proposed to are not "pretty dolls along for the ride". It's the way they choose to conduct their relationship. You're free to choose the options you prefer.

Julie

[WritingIsMyReligion]

45. Yes, and I prefer not to be.

I feel ill at the idea of being treated that way, of wearing a ring that my husband-to-be does not wear, of changing my own name to become part of his family. The actions themselves do not matter so much as the realization that they are what society expects, even in the year 2007, that women should be on the receiving end. It reminds me too much of being earmarked for a fair, or some such thing, like chattel.

My motherr did not change her name, and gave me her last name as my first name, while my last name is my father's last name. I know all about "name confusion."

People can do whatever they damn well please, and I never said they could not. This is all in my own opinion. I find it sexist and disgusting. Anyone else can see it as he or she chooses.

[Midlodemocrat]

47. But honey, her last name was *her* father's.

And having my husband propose to me, telling me that he loved me so much he wanted the moon for me is one of the greatest things ever to happen to me.

And yes, he gave me a beautiful ring. In fact, it's almost a skating rink. Does that make me less of a feminist? Not in the least.

Our entire relationship is based on trust, love and taking care of each other.

That's the way marriage is supposed to be.

[Gormy Cuss]

57. But midlo, men get their last names from their fathers too.

It's the argument that was used all the time when I was younger, that women have men's names anyway so what does it matter? Here's why it matters to some. From the day he is born a man know that his identity will always be John Smith. There is no societal expectation that he could or would change his name, ever. With women there is an expectation that the surname is a short term rental. It's a core identity difference. One can view it as a nonissue, but I for one find it startling that women changing their surnames at marriage is still a common practice. As you so nicely summarized it, marriage is about trust, love, and taking care of each other. All of that happens in a marriage without regard to name changes, or bended knee proposals by men, or engagement rings, or any other male-dominant traditions from before the modern feminist era.

[LostinVA]

53. Good post -- I agree

[Midlodemocrat]

48. From this old lady feminist, do it, Vash.

Some things are just sweet and endearing and don't have to be a political statement.

My husband proposed to me with a dozen red roses, (which I still have) and a bottle of Dom Perignon, (the cork I still have)

And, I spent the better part of the summer taking care of *him* because of bypass surgery. I don't think I gave up my independence at all. In fact, I think I've gained some being married.

[Missy Vixen]

52. A lot of marriage is dying to self, that's for sure

>Some things are just sweet and endearing and don't have to be a political statement.<

Some of the greatest and most profound moments in life are not political statements, that's for sure. There is nothing that can compare with the moment any of us looks into the eyes of another and hears that trembling, halting "I love you," for the first time, or the first time any of us sees the face of their newborn.

Part of life is belonging to others. They rub the rough spots off and polish us with love and patience.

>I think I've gained some being married.<

It's the freedom of knowing that someone knows everything there is to know about you, good and bad, and is still there. It's something to strive for -- the opportunity to be authentic with another adult. It's the very real fact that you or your spouse may not be 21 and gorgeous forever, have money forever, may not be healthy forever, and the choice to stay despite these facts. When your spouse is lying in a bed in the ICU, nobody gives a shit who asked who or what your surname is.

Dr. Joyce Brothers wrote a book on marriage years ago. One of the things she talked about is "second-stage love", which is the love that happens when you've been through it with another person. That's the job loss/death of a friend or relative/financial reversals/rebellious teenagers/illness, catastrophic or not part of relationships.

Julie

[WindRavenX]

55. Well, my SO and I have talked (we're both feminists)

We both feel very strongly about hyphenating our names--he doesn't want me to take his name and I don't either. So we're gonna take both each other's names :)

As for the actual proposal, since I'm older and it's pretty much up to him when we want to make it official, I just told him to do it when we go camping in a few years after we get our feet on the ground, lol.

We're both private people and come from religious families where marriage is a HUGE deal--for us, it really isn't because we feel it shouldn't change anything.

Does that help? The power thing can be scary, and even for me, I've had moments when I think "well, maybe I SHOULD propose to him!".

[ismnotwasm]

56. We mutually decided to get married

There was no ritual, no proposal. It was a discussion of why it was, or wasn't, a good idea. Why it turned out to be a "good" idea is a very long story.
The ritual was the marriage itself, something I thought I'd never do. I had two kids and had never been married. He had two kids and had been married and divorced once.

Rituals aren't my thing.

I took his name for three reasons. I already had my father's last name, my mother's maiden name was her father's last name, other than renaming my self, something I didn't want to bother with, they was no way out of the whole patriarch name deal in my opinion. Combining our last names in any way would have been waaaaaay too long.

And the most important reason-- I went from near bottom to the top of the alphabet. Seriously,it's paid off.