Question for attorneys about the profession.

[trof]

If you've been a lawyer for over 6 or 7 years, how many times have you changed firms? Was it voluntary or involuntary?
Trying to help out a young friend.
Thanks.

[Occulus]

1. message deleted

Potential for thread hijack. Will start a different thread. :)

[GumboYaYa]

2. I changed twice before I went on my own.

I started in a big firm because that was supposed to be the pinnacle of the profession. It took about two years before I decided that I am not the type of person to be buried in a law library for months on end. It took about five more years of going from one big firm to the next to decide I could actually make it by myself. Leaving the big firm life was one of the best decisions I ever made.

Good luck to your friend.

[trof]

4. Sounds kind of similar.

Medium sized firm to huge to small.
First move was voluntary, second due to downsizing.
Now he's working nights in office, week-ends and early mornings at home.
Doesn't have a life outside of work and it's starting to get to him.
Sounds as bad as a medical internship to me.
He's thinking about in-house counsel at a large corp., maybe pharmaceuticals. He has extensive litigation experience in that field.
I just wondered if that many moves is par for the course in the early years.
Thanks, GumboYaYa

[DoveTurnedHawk]

5. Aha

It's good to know a little bit more about your friend (I thought he was just starting out). I HIGHLY recommend that he try to get an in-house counsel job. The hours are invariably better, and the pay (if you find the right job) is not a lot less. There is also a much greater degree of satisfaction, IMO, in working for one client, rather than being a soldier-of-fortune, moving from deal to deal or case to case.

In-house jobs are tough to find, but well worth the effort, IMO.

DTH

[trof]

7. Ha. We're 180 degrees out of phase in posts.

He's in a major northeast city and plans to stay there.
Financial obligations (mega mortgage) precludes hanging out his own shingle right now.
He thinks in-house for all the reasons you list.
Guy ain't happy now, AT ALL.

[northernsoul]

9. hey Gumbo - related question

I'm just starting L1 this fall, but just out of curiousity would you recommend trying to go solo straight out of school or is it better to spend a few years at a firm "earning your stripes" before striking out?

btw, I'm interested in Labor / Employment practice, focused on plaintiff side litigation (representing unions and mistreated workers, etc.)

[DoveTurnedHawk]

10. Not Gumbo, But Definitely Better to Start at a Firm, IMO

Not only do you get good training and the comfort of a steady paycheck while you're learning the ropes, but you also make valuable client and other legal contacts (at the right firm, anyway...if you eventually want to go solo, you'll probably want to choose a smaller firm where you'll get more responsibility earlier).

DTH

[GumboYaYa]

12. I agree.

Until you have a client base it is hard to go own your own, unless you really aren't that fond of things like eating and having clothes to wear.

Remember that your own clients are the way to freedom. It is always a balancing act for new associates. The partners want you to work full time on their clients. Always reserve a little of your time for your personal marketing. It will pay off in the long run.

[northernsoul]

13. another sidebar question fo you then, DTH

I want to go into Labor & Employment practice to represent unions and individual workers. However, it looks like the majority of jobs out there are for the employers side. How common is it for someone to work for "the other side" in order to gain experience in the area and then switching to where their heart is?
I've heard of people in criminal law toggling between defense and prosecution - is it possible to do the same in Labor & Employment practice?

I can stomach representing an employer against a questionable claim, but I'll never participate in union-busting.

[GumboYaYa]

15. Labor & Employment is always in demand from what I have seen.

I do finance, corporate, and M&A work, primarily, and work with a lot of labor attorneys in the process.

There are an equal number of attorneys who represent the unions and workers as represent the companies. The former tend to have smaller, boutique firms. The latter are usually found in the large firms.

Large firms are typically training grounds. There is an old saying about large firms, "they train the best and keep the rest."

If you can stomach the environment a large firm is a good place to gain experience. You definitely get paid well for learning.

Good luck.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

17. Out of My Depth, Here

Sorry, I really don't know too much about labor, and I'm kind of clueless about what the best way is to break into the union representation field. I'd hate to give bad advice.

That's an absolutely fantastic goal, though, and I wish you the best of luck with it!

DTH

[Lady President]

18. Not DHT

While I've never practiced in this area, Labor and Employment was my focus in law school too and my father practiced in this area for 25+ years. Just my two cents, but working on both sides almost ensures you will be writing your own ticket in 5-10 years. Have you looked at the various labor unions where you want to work? They tend to need lawyers because the pay is less than a firm. It might be time consuming to job hunt this way, but I bet you could find something.

Sidenote: My pro-union father represented management for most of his career. There are many management jobs where there is no attempt to eliminate the union.

Sidenote2: Be sure to take all the ADR classes offered.

[northernsoul]

19. good to hear

This is something I've been nervous about for a while, but it sounds like I'm on the right path.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. I've Been an Attorney for Eight Years

And I've been at three law firms and three corporations. My first job was at a major law firm, where I had been a summer associate. Of my next five job changes, two were due to office closures/mergers & acquisitions, and three were voluntary upgrades.

I am definitely on the higher end of the average, but there is much more market fluidity in general these days. Law firms closing, companies closing or consolidating (more the former than the latter these days, but in the past there was a lot of M&A activity, too), associate burn-out, better opportunities, etc. etc.

I would recommend that your friend start at the best law firm he or she can. It's probably a good idea to stay there for at least two years, and then he or she can see what other options there are.

DTH

On Edit: My recommendation centers on the assumption that your friend wants to pursue a more "traditional" legal career, particularly on the civil side.

[trof]

6. Thanks.

I was a little worried about the number of moves, but that's starting to sound like the norm from this short sample. Not to get into too many details, but he comes from excellent undergrad and law school. He did the same, started with the firm where he summer interned.
Any thoughts about in-house counsel?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

8. See Above

On my thoughts on being an in-house counsel.

IMO, the best ways to find an in-house job are:

1) DISCREETLY investigating opportunities at clients who have liked the work you've done work for them in the past;

2) Networking with friends (particularly more senior friends) at other law firms;

3) Using multiple headhunters; and

4) Of course, Monster, other job websites, and www.acca.com (American Corporate Counsel Association) also has a good in-house job listing service.

Hope this helps!

DTH

[LawDem]

11. An old fart's view

I guess I'm the old guy in this conversation. I've been out 25 years. After law school, I began by clerking for the state Supreme Court, then went with a private firm, jumped ship to another one and have stayed there for 20 years. It's my impression that lawyers are moving around more today than was true 20-years ago. In this sense, the profession is mimicking the economy at large, I suppose.

There really is a big lifestyle component to all this. A large big city firm will offer much higher pay than a small firm, or any firm in a smaller city, which is my situation. The hours and pressure at those high dollar firms can be absolute killers, however, and the road to partnership is long and uncertain.

Bottom line is, I think your friend can get away with a lot more jumping around than would have been true 20-years ago, but generally it's best professionally if you can find one place and stick there for a good many years.

[trof]

14. "Old" farts are the best kind.

I know, I am one.
Yeah, I have a couple of relatives in the profession. One stayed at his first firm until he made partner and ever after.
The other was taken on as a partner in a previously one-man office right out of law school. Stayed there 15 years and then went out on his own. Both came out of law school post WW II.

Thanks for your insight. Talking to my friend and his attorney friends it does seem there's a lot more job hopping than there used to be. I was worried how this might look on his resume'.

He's was at each firm for a couple of years and has some good courtroom victories under his belt.

[trof]

16. Many thanks for comments & advice.

Without getting too detailed (or mushy), I'm kind of a surrogate father for this young man. Our families are as close as kin and he lost his dad at a very young age. He really feels like he's in a bind and it's starting to affect his family life.

I'm trying to give general advice as best I can, but my experience with the legal profession is limited. I guess more than anything I'm a sounding board and a place he can vent.

You folks have been a big help and I deeply appreciate it.
Is DU a great place, or what?
Again, many thanks.
trof

[trof]

20. kick for the evening crowd.

[trof]

21. OK, one more

[musiclawyer]

22. change happens

most in the profession recognize that it may take 2 jobs before landing the tight one. Not a problem so long as the young lawyer demonsrated an ability to stick it out a few years at each place and then left on his or her own terms.

[trof]

23. Thanks

As near as I can tell he does good work. He certainly works hard and he's as smart as a whip if honors from Yale mean anything.