True or False: In regard to today's (American) society and self-esteem...

[BlueIris]

Poll question: True or False: In regard to today's (American) society and self-esteem...

everything about the culture, the schools, parents, educational programming, child psychologists, is communicating to kids, "You can be anything, absolutely anything that you want to be because you are special and unique."

This was something a DJ on one of our local (but not usually so horrible) radio stations said on Friday morning. I think it was one of the Infinity stations. The man and the woman on the morning show were bitching and complaining about the number of "deluded" people they knew who had dreams about their futures that were so unrealistic that they might as well be crazy to be serious about pursuing them. One example was a young person with a physical health problem that the male DJ had met who allegedly knew nothing about math and science but wanted to be an astronaut. The male DJ felt this was a "delusional idea" because of the person's background/physical health issue, and also because the person had supposedly completed a four year degree program at a reputable university. "How can a person be so out of touch with reality?" Male DJ wanted to know. "How can a person be so unaware of his or her own actual abilities?"

The female DJ claimed that people with vastly unrealistic dreams about their professional ambitions were being encouraged to develop these "fantasies" because everything about our culture is pushing the idea that there are no limits for people who apply themselves to their goals.

Um...I'm sorry, but to me, that's crap. I've never noticed that this society (especially in the schools) does anything other than beat down and abuse people as far as what it tells us about what it is realistic for us to try to achieve, what we should feel about ourselves and the value of our dreams, etc. But I seem to recall a spirited debate about this in the Lounge from '05, though, and I thought I would ask for feedback on this question here. I would have posted this in GD, but The House thing is still eating up all the space in there.

[Nikia]

1. I wouldn't say everything, but that certainly is a theme

I would say that this theme is most pervasive in middle class society.

[China_cat]

2. The sad truth is

that the kids know it's bullshit. And when they know you've lied to them about something that important, you've lost them.

I was a Girl Scout leader for 20 years. Not with the little ones, either. Two troops...cadettes and seniors, ages 12 to 18. I saw first hand what happens when a girl finds her 'special' niche; when she KNOWS she has done something to be proud of as compared to just being 'special' because she happens to exist. That light that comes on her eyes.

Yes, everyone is unique and special...that doesn't make them equal in ability. The kids know that. Why do adults try to push something different on them?

[otherlander]

14. So they can sell "successful" jobs

that deaden the soul. One day at school they had a speaker come in and talk about the great money we could make doing some corporate job or other, and the great "perks". The main "perk" seemed to be the lite jazz in the background. But even if it was Coltrane, I don't think that could save us from the soullesness of it all.

What really gets me is when they say, "Children are the future". Yeah. Kind of like their parents are the present? :eyes:

[BlueIris]

3. Kick. nt

[baldguy]

4. Well, this a a country where a momma's boy

who tortured small animals & bullied his classmates, who was a mediocre drug-addled college student, who became an alcoholic coke-fiend in the TANG and went AWOL, who has failed at every business venture he ever undertook - can grow up to be President.

But, of course, he had a little help.

[datasuspect]

5. save for the exceptional cases

most people only go as far as their family's social/business connections.

the "self-made" person and horatio alger shit is pure mythology.

or like that old quote, "most men live lives of quiet desperation."

the problem nowadays is we are so narcotized by shiny objects and teevee that we don't even know anymore what it means to be truly human.

[LaraMN]

6. When coupled with the belief that

success is somehow owed to the person in question, people who fail do so because they don't try hard enough, and individuals don't owe their fellow human beings anything, it's particularly destructive.

I'm all for instilling a "work hard" ethic in kids and encouraging them to aim high, but there are some really unrealistic sentiments about life, in general, that are often perpetuated. I think it's easy to lose sight of the importance of encouraging children to build a life that is content, fullfilling, and satisfying, in a well-rounded way.

[BlueIris]

22. "...people who fail do so because they don't try hard enough..."

Yeah, that's always the insinuation I hear made about those who aren't "successful enough" by those who have a hefty entitlement mentality, like media whores. Abusive childhoods, abusive adulthoods, abusive working conditions, abusive academic environs--those things have NOTHING to do with what prohibits individuals from being successful!

Entitlement mentality sucks.

[zanne]

7. Like the blind guy who climbed Mt. Everest?

I'm afraid these stories are getting out of control. As a disabled person, I almost feel as though I'm expected to do more than I actually can. After I was diagnosed with Muscular Dystrophy about 10 years ago, I started getting suggestions from people who wanted me to make a splash by learning how to ski, sail, snowboard, etc. I told one of these people that it was a good thing I wasn't a triple amputee because I'd be expected to climb a friggin' mountain!

[BlueIris]

16. Interesting.

And something I started thinking about after the astronaut example came up (though, truthfully, I was pretty offended by that example--an astronaut might be an unrealistic dream there...if that guy wanted to stay in the U.S., but hey, Lance Bass almost convinced the Russians to send him up; physical health issues were, IMHO, the least cumbersome obstacle that man might have to deal with).

[Oeditpus Rex]

8. It's part of the Mer'kin Dream

That's right, you lucky child! Since you (yes, you!) were ordained by Dog to live in Mer'ka, the Only Country in the Universe Worth Living In (also ordained by Dog), you can be anything you want to be and have anything you want to have — as long as you're willing to crush all those who stand in your way.*

There will always be many who'll try to stop you from getting What You're Entitled To as a Mer'kin, though — especially if you're not a Male, Anglo-Saxon Christian Mer'kin. But we're not going to teach you that yet because it might dissuade you from starting your climb up the Corp'rit Ladder to the Success You Deserve. So, for now, just keep believing that You're Speshuller Than Anybody, because we need you for the next generation of corporate fodder.

In Dog, Wal-Mart and Disney we trust. A-men.

:patriot:



*And if you're not, get the hell out. You aren't our kind.

[Ellen Forradalom]

9. We want to encourage kids and adults alike

to take risks, learn things, be creative, try stuff. A healthy sense of self-esteem is part of this--self-esteem enough to try, self-esteem gained by learning through success and failure. "Do the best you can, don't give up, follow your muse, everyone can make a contribution to society, and sometimes great achievements come from those labelled untalented," is a better message than, "Anyone can do anything."

The preceding in two words: Albert Einstein.

[camero]

10. Our culture will do anything to create the desire for wealth

That way, they'll see themselves as superior to the person with less desireable financial conditions even if talent or ethics dictate otherwise.

[Lady President]

11. I think I agree with the DJs

I agree with the DJs on this one-- which is odd because I rarely agree with people on the radio.

Schools and clubs feel that they can't single children out as being better than their peers at anything. The most obvious example is not keeping score at Little League games. I can't see the benefit of leading all the kids to believe that they are good athletes. My friend was telling me that every child her son's elementary school class had exactly the same number of words in the school play because "everyone is equal and no one is a star." We both gagged a little at that. Personally, I am tone deaf, but love music. It was much better for me to learn at a young age to appreciate music, but not play it. I was steered toward activities in which I could be successful. I'm guessing that the DJs live in the middle of white suburbia where every Kaitlyn/Jason is told they are magically special.

[LSdemocrat]

12. I think it depends where you grow up

If you're raised in any area that's essentially middle class or higher, society can convey the sense that you can do or achieve anything. And for some people this deludes some people into thinking that they don't even have to prepare or work for what they want.

If you come from a different background, then society can be harsher in terms of setting expectations due to repeated hardships and a general lack of resources.

[Redstone]

13. I don't know. When I was growing up, it was:

1) Sit down and shut up! (Nobody even knew what ADD was back then.)

2) After that: "You have a 186 IQ score, so why don't you get better GRADES?"

And then they wondered why I never went to college.

Redstone

[HEyHEY]

15. I'd have to agree with you Iris

I just could never excel at school in anyway. The way school was taught just didn't mesh with me. And I was made to feel like I had no future. Nothing was ever bluntly said to me. But I felt that way. I barely graduated High school (after an extra semester) and always went to summer school and even boarding school... where I excelled because the way they taught meshed with me. I went from flunking remedial math to getting a B in reagular math. But my parents couldn't afford to keep me there. As soon as I as back in the public system I was failing again and feeling like a loser again. Grade nine was the worst... I tried so hard to pass Math in summer school and when I got my report card on the last day I opened it up to see I'd failed. I held the tears in as hard as I could because I had tried so hard and still failed.
In college, I passed everything and all that... but again, barely.

However... now doing things on my own, I am one of the most promising young reporters in the Province (Dare I say in the country) and pretty well in a tie for the most succesful one in my journalism program in college. Many never even stayed in journalism.
The secret of my success was spite and ambition. I wanted to prove all those fuckers wrong, and I'm lucky enough to have an inner fire and passion for what I do, which is what makes me good at it... plus, I have OCD, which, though it has fucked much of my life, has at least had the benefit of making me excel at my career.

Had I not had the blood and the mental illness who knows where I'd be.

All that said, I shall NEVER forget the teachers that DID tell me even though I wasn't good at school I'd do well in life. They saw something in me and believed in me. I hope when some of them hear me on the radio or read my print stuff, it gives them a smile. And I would love to thank them if I ever see them.

[BlueIris]

17. "The secret of my success was spite and ambition."

Spite and ambition are some of the BEST motivators. Right up there with rage and pain.

[distantearlywarning]

18. Watch the American Idol auditions

Best example ever of the "false self-esteem" culture that we have built for our young in America, and the personal consequences of being told all your life that absolutely everything you do is special and magical and that you can do well at anything if you just try hard enough.

Almost without exception, every single person rejected from that show (at least the ones they televise) says some version of the following, "but I tried my best!", as though that is all that is required to succeed in a musical career. They don't seem to have any idea that success in music (or in a lot of other fields) requires special abilities that some people have and others don't. It's not elitist or unfair - it's just a fact. Some people are tone-deaf and others have perfect pitch. Some people are 7' tall and can play in the NBA, and others of us are height-challenged and have to do something else with our lives. Most of these American Idol kids are in complete denial about their actual level of talent, and behave badly and blame others when trying hard doesn't get them what they want. It's very sad. I wonder how many of them go home from those auditions with their world and self-image completely shattered.

Sorry, but I have to agree with the DJs. We all have different abilities and gifts, and people shouldn't shelter children to the point where they get to be 18 years old and have absolutely no clue that they are tone deaf and aren't going to be the next Mariah Carey. Steering someone towards math or dance or something they actually CAN do at age 10 is a lot more kind in the long run than letting them find out they suck in a televised audition.

[Droopy]

19. My parents told me I could do anything when I was a kid

Anything I could set my mind to do could be accomplished. I didn't learn my lesson of life's reality until my 3rd failed attempt at getting a college education. I ended up a truck driver which is honorable work, but nothing like the accomplishment of writing for a living or becoming a scientist or becoming a psychologist- my three failed attempts.

I think that there has to be a way of teaching your kids to be realistic while not deflating their self esteem. It sucks to learn that you aren't cut out for certain things when you were told your whole life that you could do anything. Yup, it's delusional.

[AngryAmish]

20. The whole self-esteem movement is BS

Do you know who have the highest self-esteem? Criminals and sociopaths. Children with the highest tend to be bullies.

High self esteem has no correlation (let alone causation) with success and happiness. However, this is another stupid blind alley professional educators have lead us down.

[distantearlywarning]

21. This is absolutely true.

All the research suggests that people who have the highest self-esteem are the bullies and sociopaths.

[BlueIris]

23. But bullies and sociopaths also have low self-worth.

It took me forever to understand the difference between self-esteem and self-worth. Self-esteem (as it was explained to me, anyway) is concerned with the belief that you have the right to pursue happiness, and that you are capable enough to achieve it with perseverance, luck and adequate support. Self-worth is concerned with the belief that you have the right to safety. Basic physical and emotional safety.

To lack understanding that you have the right to safety is a very dangerous state of being. I lived in that condition for years. I'm lucky to be alive. Another DUer who works in corrections posted about this here once. The high self-esteem + entitlement mentality, coupled with the low self-worth thing = criminal/sociopath a lot, when that combination may not necessarily be present in individuals with both high self-esteem and high self-worth. Bullies and sociopaths tend to lack empathy as well, and to what degree self-worth is related to whether or not someone has empathy isn't something I know anything about.

I agree with you, though, that the "work on your self-esteem" movement is...I think it's focus is in the wrong place. High self-esteem isn't going to be possible for you to achieve, let alone sustain, unless you can add self-worth to the equation. And if you don't have qualities like empathy? Uh, I don't know if that can be developed in therapy or self-motivation seminars.

[Crazy Dave]

24. Not sure

Some of our greatest minds and inventions were always knocked down by pessimists or the envious with declarations of, "it can't be done", "that's impossible" or "that's ridiculous". In younger children I see no harm in letting their imaginations run wild but in older children a more realistic approach to life should be encouraged, like having a back-up plan. It used to be a degree or mastering a trade was good enough but now it only limits you. I actually know three high paying skills should one or two not work out one day. Also, a person from a poor family has better odds, even though limited, at becoming wealthy by studying versus planning on being a professional athlete or hip-hop star. The percentage of US college athletes that get drafted by the pros is only about 1.2% the last time I heard with only about half of that making it a career.

[ForrestGump]

25. I agree with both sides, or all sides

Which is not especially uncommon for me, not from wishiwashiness but because life's a complex thing.

I believe I can do anything if I work at it and if I want to get it done. I grew up in a nation where mediocrity was encouraged in some ways (don't stand out) but where there were several world-class examples of people who thought or acted outside the prevailing paradigms and went for the gold. My mother, especially, and the influence of her mother -- combined with spending my formative years in an outdoors-pursuits environment heavily stacked with men and women from around the world who'd done remarkable things in the world of exploration (alpine climbing, sailing, kayaking...you name it) -- had a lot to do with the certainty that I had the tools with which to realize any dream I could dream or, at least, to work toward it. I recognized very early in life that the journey was its own reward -- again heavily influenced by the outdoors élite I grew up with -- and also that I was never likely to make it to the end of my journey because something different, and usually better in unanticipated ways, would come along from an unexpected quarter. Both ideas have played out as truth over and over again in my life, thus far.

Some of the responses here reinforce my belief that when many people think of the "you can achieve" anything credo they think primarily or solely of fiscal gain or other economic gauges of 'success.' If nothing else, this difference is probably indicative of an American versus a non-(originally)-American background -- money's important in most countries, but Americans are indoctrinated with the power of the Almighty Dollar right from the start -- and also of the rather unique circumstances of my having grown up around so many adventurers, American and otherwise.

There's undeniably another factor here, and that is that my basic intelligence, flexibility of thinking, artistic background, logical mind, quickness of thought, and even my physicality have helped me excel in a number of different fields. Some of us are cut out to be Renaissance persons and I seem to be one of them, very good at a lot of things and therefore able to believe I could be at least halfway capable of a great many more things. Hopefully those of you who know me know that 'conceited' and 'braggart' are far from my truth, but I'd be disingenuous for me not to recognize and acknowledge the truth of what I'm saying here. I have proven to myself, often enough, that I can do anything...or that, rather, anything I apply energy toward turns out to be eminently do-able. My brother is exactly the same way and has also proven it to himself, just by living his life and allowing himself to excel in fields he may never have expected to even pursue.

There've got to be exceptions that prove the rule, of course. Love has largely eluded me, with some notable exception, but that is not something you can work at (not, I mean, when you're one person, as in deciding "I think I'll make Salma Hayek fall in love with me and we'll live happily ever after") and, besides, I am still confident I will get it right (or, rather it will get me right), one day, and it'll be better late than never because I know from previous experience that when it's good it can heal the past. The piano is perhaps the thing I feel I may never be able to master even if I put my mind to it -- it's what jumped immediately to mind now, anyway, when I thought of exceptions -- which is kind of funny 'cos my mother's a trained pianist and my father is decidedly untrained but is probably a better player than my mother and can play anything he hears 'by ear.' Well, despite what I've said above, you can't be good at everything...

And, yes, I tend extrapolate this on to other people, in general, but more specifically on those (many people I know) I believe capable of far more than they believe themselves capable of. If I can help them realize that they're selling themselves short, in such a way that they do something about it, I am very happy. I know I have helped some people (hell, one of them went on to get an advanced degree and landed a scientific job I applied for the beeyotch!).

I would not say I have high self-esteem -- self-esteem is another very American construct, as it's being used here, and I was brought up to NOT say anything that even hints at bragging, including telling the minimal truth about my abilities and accomplishments (it was coming to the US, and needing to sell myself to jumpstart my scientific career, that had me for the first time extolling my virtues to others or myself) -- because to me the concept remains somehow foreign, in terms of my own life, and I don't feel being unable to measure myself on a self-esteem scale conflicts at all with the belief that I can do anything. And along with that belief goes a certainty -- not the Pollyanna type, but one based on observable experience -- that things will tend to work out for the best in the long run. That helps take the leaps of faith that are sometimes necessary to do well in something. And it sure beats stone-cold pessimism and Eeyore-ness...not that I don't doubt, or get sad and hurt (that happens plenty), but I was raised to try to find a bright side, and it's always there if you look from enough different angles.

Yes, I am aware that all people are not created equal. Not in terms of what they might be able to do, anyway. I realize that my capabilities are far broader than many, and undoubtedly narrower than some. But I can't help but believe that most people are capable of far more than they know or acknowledge, or are settling for -- and if, in 'settling,' they're happy...well...fine. What gets to me, especially when I care for the person but even just in general, is when someone is settling and they somehow know it, and it's making them miserable. If I can shake them up, get them out of their comfort level, and help them realize a better thing, I am happy..not as an ego boost, but out of genuine caring.

I do agree that willy-nilly laying on this 'self-esteem' concept can be counterproductive. And, yes, although there've always been people full of themselves and those whose belief in their own abilities is far out of line with their modest talent, the current blanket self-esteem boost that seems to have infected America is harmful. Maybe simply (a) because 'self-esteem' needs to be based on real attributes -- something substantive and organically native to the person -- and (b) you've still got to work for it, whether you need to work hard or whether a particular goal happens to come more easily. I've worked very hard at reaching some of my goals, even the ones that my character and mental traits perfectly suited me to. The bottom line with a lot of these people who go on TV and believe themselves "hotter than you..I am da bomb" or think themselves the next Elvis or Sinatra is that they bought the image but are too lazy to work on actually finding their reflection or permutation of it and too intellectually and emotionally lazy and immature to realize that they're delusional idiots who're just being obnoxious, exhibitionist, bragging asswipes.

I don't apologize for believing I can do just about anything if I want to and if I work at it. I also don't apologize for proving it. And, if you don't mind, thank you very much, I will continue to encourage others to Be All They Can Be, or a part of that (the "All They Can be" part being key...when people try to be mroe than they really Can Be, because the media or whoever tells them to, trouble happens), if it is going to help them live a better life for themselves (whether the goal includes fiscal reward or decidedly not...I, myself, chose a path that did not lead to the financial riches I know I could have had with another path). And if we don't have dreams, what the hell do we have?

But, yes...like anything, the idea we can do so much more than we believe or are told can be corrupted, and in this country it most definitely has been, and it's also been twisted to not be meaningful unless it leads almost solely to financial or 'status' rewards.