Tate/LaBianca murders ...

[ronnykmarshall]

I've always been interested in this cause. What's are yous kids thoughts or memories of this?

I was just 8 years old when it happened, but it still haunts me to this day.

In 1978, I drove up the Tate house during a visit to LA (for a Diana Ross concert). It gave me the creeps. To be in that same place were such evil took place scared the crap out of me.

Some of my thoughts on this:

1. Susan Atkins is full of shit. NOW she says that Tex Watkins stabbed Sharon Tate to death, not her. Of course he backs her up in an attempt help her get paroled. He NEVER will be paroled. I think out of all the woman, she's the biggest liar and is playing "oh I found Jesus defense".

2. I think the caretaker William Garrison (the only one at the Tate house not murdered) is either also full of shit. At the time of the murders, he claimed he never heard any screaming. He passed a polygraph. But NOW, he claims he heard Abigail Folger tell Pat Krinwinkle as she was being stabbed to death "stop, I'm already dead". Which ironically was what Krinwinkle said in an interview years before Garrison "remembered" the events of that night.

3. I think Manson returned to Cielo (the Tate house) after the murders. There were several stories of people hearing a heated argument coming from the direction of the house. Plus Sharon Tate's blood was found on the porch of the house. She was murdered inside.

4. If ANY of the murders are released, I think only Leslie Van Houton has be best chance.

[RetroLounge]

1. I read Bugliosi's Helter Skelter when I was younger

scared the crap out of me...

RL

[ronnykmarshall]

3. Same here.

The book starts out "The story you about to read will scare the hell out of you". He was right. My Aunt Pat read it first and gave it to me to read. I had many sleepless nights after reading it.

For years this story has upset me in many ways. With the "internets" I've been able to come in contact with other people that have followed the story. Some are VERY obsessed with it. I was in a Yahoo group at one point that really upset Debra Tate, Sharon's sister. I felt bad and contacted a lady that works with Debra and apologized if I had upset Debra in any way. She wrote back and said that Debra read my postings and in no way was offended and thanked me for being supportive.

I think I found some peace with the whole thing. Last 4th of July, I visited Sharon Tate's grave site and left flowers and one of my rosary beads. I felt very peaceful after that.

[GalleryGod]

15. Good for you, Ronny! I met Vince B, a long time ago in L.A.

must've been 1978. He told me he'll never get the case put out of his mind and suspected he'll have nightmares for the rest of his life.

"LuLu" Van Houten ain't going anywhere, IMHO.

[ronnykmarshall]

35. I LOVE Vince B.

He put his heart and soul into that case.

I want to make it a point to visit Sharon's grave from time to time. Her wonderful mother and sister Patti are also buried there as well.

Ya know, it just gave me such peace to be there. I hate what happened to her and it bugs the shit out of me that it still effects me to this day.

[Sequoia]

83. I was watching a little bit of "Valley of the Dolls"

and beautiful Sharon Tate. It made me sad to know what the future held for her.

[Kali]

43. Bugliosi wrote a great essay on the supreme court selection of the bushidiot

I lost it in a computer crash but I bet it is around somewhere (and I'm sure I found it originally here on DU)

[Kali]

44. I knew it - found the link in my old bookmarks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=42776

DU is a treasure!

[NJCher]

61. More than just an essay

It was a turning point. It was the first time anyone put words to the fraud that is bush.

I remember when that essay came out and thinking that this is the first step: words defining what the SC actually did.

I recall talking to other people who felt the same way I did about that outrageous decision and their relief that someone else saw it the way they did.

Vincent Bugliosi is a hero for what he did with that article.




Cher

[Blue_Roses]

63. me too

I remember many sleepless nights as a child after this. Those pictures in that book used to haunt me. :scared:

Still freaks me out to this day.

[Texasgal]

2. The case has always

fascinated me.

It is amazing that the girls were so young, they looked so innocent...ofcourse,they were heinous killers unfortunately.

[ronnykmarshall]

4. I think that is why it's so scary.

Manson to this day says that he had no control over them and they acted on their own. Lying sack of shit.

[Texasgal]

6. He is a freak

with several loose screws!

[Shakespeare]

5. To me, it's always been the single most terrifying murder(s) in US history.

Like Retro, I read Helter Skelter when I was in about 6th grade, and it scared the hell out of me. The randomness of it, the EXTREME violence of it, the cultish aspects--it hits on so many different levels of fear. I haven't quite gotten up my nerve to drive up to either of the houses, but I'm sure I will.

And Ronny--have you ever seen the book "Hidden Hollywood: Where the Stars Lived, Loved and Died" by Richard Lamparski? It's like a dark, twisted travel guide for the city, and covers everything from the Black Dahlia (and actually goes back to around the teens when Hollywood was just getting going) to the Manson murders to the OJ murders. I've only ever seen it in the souvenir shops around here, but they should issue a copy to everybody who moves to LA. It's that interesting.

[ronnykmarshall]

7. I know it's morbid ...

but we should take one of those "Graveline Tours". There is so much history in our fair city. I want to see the Black Dahila film too.

[Shakespeare]

8. Ha! I've always wanted to take one of those.

There's a really irresistable, twisted, dark side to LA--which is one more reason I love this city.

[Sequoia]

84. 6th grade! No way.

My daughter is in 6th grade and not even I want to read that book. Wouldn't want her too at her age either. The movie was scary enough.

[Shakespeare]

87. A bright 12-year-old with a library card is a dangerous thing.

But I was a well-behaved kid, so my mom never paid too much attention to what I was checking out and reading. :evilgrin:

[Sequoia]

88. But of course, it's you Shakespeare!

In 8th grade the Book Mobile used to come around and they had a copy of "Planet of the Apes". The adults didn't check the content because when I got a hold of it, it was a real eye openener. I went to a boarding school where you didn't even mention the word sex let alone think about it. I told the boys in school about it and next thing you know they all want to read it. Our old librarian with the Eienstein hair do was thrilled that the boys wanted to read a book, even if it was science fiction. He said to me (the instigator), "I can't understand why they all want to read it. Must be a good book."

[Tikki]

9. Well, I was...

pregnant at the time with my oldest....and we had just left that area to where Mr. Tikki had been
drafted....I was kinda relieved....but then I thought: This was some crazy guy who had he and his
people running around killing pregnant women.

I do think about the folks who died there, from time to time....Sharon Tate lived a short time in the town Mr. Tikki and I grew up in.
I knew who she was and how pretty she was and how much her husband, Roman, appeared to love her.


Sad...:-(

Tikki

[ronnykmarshall]

10. Wow .... thank you for sharing.

I recall my mom being so upset that Sharon was pregnant when she was murdered. We always talked about current events at dinner when I was a kid.

I've seen many videos of Sharon and she seemed like such a sweet and nice person.

[PlanetBev]

11. I was 18 years old

Man, I'll never forget the weekend as long as I live. I still have the L.A. Times headlines, and that Life magazine with that crazy picture of Manson on the front.

I didn't hear about the stuff about William (it's actually Garretson) changing his story. I assume that he was up that night, because Steven Parent was coming to visit him. I just don't understand how he couldn't have heard the commotion that was going on outside. The cops found grass in the guest house he stayed in, so I assume he was pretty loaded. I remember one time I was so fucked-up, I couldn't hear.

A little trivia for you, Ronny. In 1983, I was working at the Hollywood Reporter, getting people to renew their subscriptions. One of the people I had to call was Rudy Altobelli. Altobelli owned the house on Cielo Drive when the killings took place and held onto it until the late 80's, when he sold the property for seven million big ones. Well, after the cops cleared out, Altobelli sent Roman Polanski the cleaning bill. When I called him to renew, I had to fight down the impulse to ask him how he could be such a colossal asshole.

A little more trivia. In 1975, I had a temp job at the law firm where Paul Fitzgerald, Leslie Van Houten's lawyer worked. On his desk was an amazing hand-made chess set, which I was told was made for him by Van Houten in prison. I agree with you, Ronny, if anyway is every released from prison, it probably will be her.

And yes, Atkins is full of shit.

[ronnykmarshall]

13. Holy cow.

Rudy sent Roman a CLEANING bill? How sick is that?

[GalleryGod]

18. What!? Sady Mae Gluck? Full of shit !

She was a Vampira that night...tasting Tate's Blood!

[ronnykmarshall]

23. as she has since said she didn't do.

Was her grand jury testimony and jail house confession bullshit? I think not. At least Krinwinkle, Kasabian and Van Houton's stories have not changed over the years. "Sexy Sadie" is a lying sack of crap.

[hedgehog]

12. People's memories are not a video tape.

It wouldn't be impossible that Mr. Garrison heard Krinwinkle's testimony at some point and that he now honestly remembers hearing those words himself. Memory experiments have shown that our memories can be altered without us realizing it.

[ronnykmarshall]

14. Could be.

I feel sorry for William. But for some reason his story doesn't ring true to me.

Someone that my heart goes out to is Mrs. Champman, the Tate housekeeper. That poor woman discovered the bodies that morning. There are many stories about the night. One is that Sharon offered her to spend the night because it was so hot and thought that it would be more comfortable for Mrs. Chapman to stay instead of dealing with the traffic the next day. I also read that Mrs. Chapman never recovered from the events and died not long after the trial. Just things I read.

[PlanetBev]

17. Once reason why I think William did get a lot of sympathy

The cops dragged the half-asleep Garretson out of bed and dragged him around the property, roughing him up and yelling at him, "see this?", "see this?" and "look what you did". I vividly remember Barry Tarlow, Garretson's attorney with his arm around William the next day. Garretson looked pretty freaked out. A great deal of sympathy was generated for him because the cops behaved so badly.

Yeah, I remember Mrs. Chapman. If I saw anything like she did, I'd be drooling in a corner the rest of my life. I had a friend years ago who had an acquaintance who was on her way up to the house to party with Sharon Tate and the others on that night. On her way up there, she was seized by a blinding headache and decided to blow it off. Guess her number wasn't up.

[ronnykmarshall]

20. Many people were supposed to be at the house that night.

Kind of makes you think that if there were a lot of people there .... the murders probably could not have happened.

[mitchum]

106. That seems to be a particular form of LA "brush with greatness"...

it is amazing the number of people over the years who have claimed "I was supposed to be there that night, but..."
Yeah, sure.

Hey, I was supposed to be there, but it was past my bedtime. Since I was nine and all.

[ScreamingMeemie]

26. I would think his memory of "that" night would remain sharp...

I remember the night my boyfriend killed himself in sharp detail... including riding home from dinner with my parents, the warmth of the evening, my best friend sitting on the hood of her car when I came home...all of it.

That's why it rings a little false to me as well.

[GalleryGod]

16. My Obsession: The Death of Marilyn Monroe

I always visit Marilyn when I'm in L.A. Normally, I leave her a little bouquet (to go along with the dozens of little flowers and tributes that are left daily)

Something went terribly wrong that night.:cry:

[ronnykmarshall]

19. Where is Marilyn's crypt at?

Is it Hollywood Forever? I went there not long ago and saw Jane Mansfield's grave. Very simple and nice. That's very cool cemetery. Which is ironic because I don't have to be buried, but burn my ass and scatter.

[carly denise pt deux]

21. I thing its at Pierce Bros/Westwood Memorial park in LA

Carly

[Shakespeare]

32. Yup. Right in the middle of all those office buildings.

Oddest damn place for a mausoleum, but that's LA for ya.

[flamingyouth]

22. It's always really both scared and fascinated me

I read "Helter Skelter" when I was young (too young, probably). I agree with you about Garrison being full of it, about Manson returning to the Cielo house and about Atkins being full of shit. I hope none of them gets out, personally! Ugh. :scared:

[ronnykmarshall]

29. That house (Cielo) was torn down in 1994.

Granted it was a beautiful house. I can't imagine living there. It's been replaced by this horrible monster house that as far as I know is STILL not sold. They should just make that land a park.

[flamingyouth]

33. I drove by it before it was torn down.

I'd never want to live at that address (or at any site of a horrible crime like that). Actually, making it a park is a good idea. :hi:

[carly denise pt deux]

24. Manson and his family

It's amazing the influence Manson could have over people. That is one part that still amazes me...the people who ended up tangled up with him were not just silly runaway teens...Manson latched onto Dennis Wilson, drummer of the Beach Boys...Denny ended up so scared of Manson at the end, that he moved out of his own home (he owned Will Rogers' house in Coldwater (?) Canyon)...because he was afraid to tell Manson and his family to get out. That is a scary man, indeed.
Carly

[skygazer]

25. All stories like that fascinate me

And I think fascinate everyone because they're the stories of seemingly everyday people who do such incredibly horrifying things. One wonders how that could be and if they could be so manipulated or led, could I? And of course you think, oh no, I could never do that. But you still wonder. And you wonder even more what it's like to be confronted by those people. :scared:

Right now I'm reading a biography of Eva Braun. Amazing enough that the author found enough material to write a biography because for someone who walked in the shadow of a Hitler, very little is known about her. And my curiosity about her is the same - how could this seemingly normal, pretty young girl end up commiting suicide with a man like Hitler? Of course, Hitler himself is fascinating, as is Dahmer and Bundy and all those people who act outside of what we see as rational behavior. And so far outside!

[ronnykmarshall]

27. That would be an interesting book to read.

Eva Braun is an interesting person.

[skygazer]

31. It is interesting

And sad. And repellant.

The people who are simply loved ones of bad people interest me more sometimes than the bad people themselves. You have to wonder how much they realized of what was going on and you have to realize that at some point, they had to know full well. And yet decided their love for the other person outweighed it.

I'll tell you honestly, as someone who stayed with an abusive man for close to 8 years, I can see how that can happen. I can understand how a person can rationalize things. And though it makes me queasy, it interests me as well.

Odd to think that even an evil dictator needs love, too. People are so complex. That's why I truly reject Bush's ideas that pure evil exists - I don't believe that and I think that simplifies things too much - gives people an out, even. "Well, he couldn't help it - he was pure evil." No, I don't think so. I think we all have the capacity for many things and we choose the paths we take. That's more frightening to me than the concept of a pure evil anyway.

Blah, blah, blah..... ;)

[Darth_Kitten]

70. Eva Braun was an idiot.

Not a very intelligent woman from what I've read. I have no sympathy for women who take up with murderous men.

[Patiod]

75. Then you might like this

http://www.freshyarn.com/39/essays/tilden_brushes1.htm

Interesting website, and this is one of the most compelling tales I've read there.

[Sequoia]

85. That was spooky. Crawling around...creepy!

[ScreamingMeemie]

28. Those murders and the Clutter Murder (In Cold Blood) have frightened

me for years.

It is for that reason that I think anyone who thinks they're "safe" enough to keep their doors unlocked is nuts. The Clutter murders is what I think about every time we look at property. I know, call me crazy but I can't help it.

Interesting connection: My 8th grade history teacher's parents sold their car to the Clutters before they moved with her up to Michigan.

Both stories are so horrific and sad all rolled into one. :(

[ronnykmarshall]

34. Another strange connection ...

My Great Uncle lived in the LA area for years. Now this may not be true ... but I remember him telling me this. Maybe a few months before the murders, there was a group of "hippies" driving around Uncle Henry and Aunt Ethel's neighborhood in dune buggies and motorcycles just being a bunch of assholes. Uncle Henry went outside and told them to get lost while Aunt Ethel called the police. Uncle Henry SWORE to me that the guy he spoke to was Manson. He said that what he remembered was his freaky eyes and that there were a lot of young girls.

Freaky, huh?

[NJCher]

62. interesting tie re the motorcycles and dune buggies

I was going to college in the midwest at the time of the murders. I think it was my first or second year. Anyway, I got a new roommate who had been in college in California the previous year. Her parents no longer would pay for her to go to school there because she had been living the wild life. They would only finance an education at a small, midwestern school.

When the murders happened everyone was, of course, horrified and so puzzled as to who could have done such a thing.

I recall the day the news came out and my roommate's first reaction: she thought she knew who the murderer was. (And she was later proven right.) She explained that when she was in California she knew a guy by the name of Charlie who hung around with some girls and that they drove motorcylcles and dune buggies recklessly in the desert. She said the group was composed of both men and women but that they operated like a "family." She said she thought that Charlie and his gang could have murdered Sharon Tate. That was her "best guess."

I recall she also said Charlie had a line of "crazy talk."

From the way she described the group, I got the feeling she knew them rather well but kept her distance because she was fearful and distrusting of them.

I dismissed it as a tall story. In fact I laughed her off. What were the odds that someone 1500 miles away could guess who the murderer was when the police were having such a tough time solving the crime?

When they later arrested Charlie, I wasn't just amazed, I was absolutely dumbfounded.



Cher

[Patiod]

78. Wow, wild story

That must have given you the creeps.

[Patiod]

76. The one that scared me was Ted Bundy

probably because I was 18 at the time he was killing young women.

"The Stranger Beside Me" scared the wits out of me - he could get into locked houses with no problem, hell, he escaped from JAIL more than once.

[fudge stripe cookays]

30. I think it was Trent Reznor...

that bought the house a few years ago (ya'll correct me if I'm wrong), but I think he sold it again. And SWORE he didn't know anything about the murders there (shah, right...)

I thought I had heard at one point that the owners had either torn it down, or changed the look of the house so completely that it was unrecognizable from the way it looked that night because they were so tired of the curisoty seekers constantly driving by.

Or perhaps they erected a really tall wall.

Anybody heard these stories?

[ronnykmarshall]

36. Trent rented the house.

And Trent is full of shit when he said he didn't know about the murders. There's a video of him with Marlyn Manson of all people recording a song at the house. The WAS before it wad torn down in 1994 and Trent bought of was able to take the actual door that Susan Atkins wrote "PIG" in Sharon Tate's blood on. He had the door put at a recording studio.

There are also quotes from Trent saying "I don't think Sharon liked my music". Because while they recorded their album at the Cielo house, they kept losing power and blowing fuses.

[fudge stripe cookays]

42. Good.

I knew he was full of crap. What a blatant load of crap.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

37. Born over a decade after the event

I agree with you that it was an absolutely chilling and frightening series of events that took place on that night and that Manson and his agents were people who engaged in unspeakable evil. The loss of life and the impact on the family of the victims left behind is equally horrific. From the limited reading I have done about the series of murders, I can remember feeling a deep sense of empathy and sorrow for Sharon Tate and her friends and for the lives cut short.

Manson and his followers were a bunch of hateful, deluded and evil individuals IMO. Their cultish role playing, their callous disregard for human life and their desire to start a racial war made them very dangerous people and I think the murders may have been only a foretaste of what these people were capable of. What is scary is the extent to which Manson’s followers were slavishly devoted to him and willing to do whatever he wanted and whatever it took to achieve his goals. Although I don’t think the fact that they were slavishly devoted to Manson excuses the hideous and vile actions of the perpetrators on that night

If I remember accurately, it was Manson’s followers who subsequently tried to assassinate President Ford as well wasn’t it?

I think Manson and his bunch of supporters involved in the events of that night are fine where they are at the moment –personally I think that it would be ludicrous to even think of paroling these people, but then again that’s just my opinion

Actually I can relate to your fascination with this case –there are true crime events on a much lesser scale which have been the focus of my interest and fascination over the past years. I think for me my interest is motivated by deep empathy, sadness and sorrow I feel for the victims and the wish that I could have helped them in some way

[ronnykmarshall]

38. I agree with you 100%

What's really fucked up is that Squeaky Fromme (who tried to kill President Ford) and Sandra Good (another fucked up Manson robot) still walk in lock step with Manson.

[edbermac]

39. There are some websites with the crime scene photos.

The Helter Skelter book pictures whited the bodies out, but there are color photos that I've seen. VERY NASTY. I felt some sympathy for the girls but not anymore. Same with the In Cold Blood killers. The was a show by Bill Kurtis on a cable network some years ago on Capote and his book. Even in grainy black and white the crime scene pics were pretty horrific.

[ronnykmarshall]

41. I've seen them ...

Horrible.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

40. My piano teacher, who has long passed, had a sister who was

killed by the Boston Strangler. I was a kid when I took lessons with her, and she spoke often of her sister and how her heart had been broken since the day her sister died. I could never read the books or watch the films surrounding these murders because it just seemed too personal to me, although I have read Helter Skelter and other true murder books. Bugliosi's other book about the man who killed the boaters and stole their boat is just as creepy. I believe the title of that is And the Sea Shall Tell...or something similar.

[Patiod]

79. "The Perfect Storm" author had a connection with him, too

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/17/junger.bostonstrangler/index.html

[CaliforniaPeggy]

107. And The Sea Will Tell...........

Outstanding book!

That Bugliosi sure can write........

A true story of murder on a South Seas island.......Palmyra Island.

He never fails to deliver the goods! :scared:

[SeattleGirl]

45. Manson scares the crap out of me. The first time I read "Helter

Skelter", I was living by myself. I had to leave all the lights on, and then I would lock the door and put a chair in front of it, that's how creepd out I was by that book.

I have seen one of A&E's shows on Manson and the Family. They showed one of Manson's parole hearings, and the guy is even more frightening now, if that's at all possible.

One of the "true crime" stories that really gets to me is about Diane Downs, and how she shot her children. (Ann Rule wrote "Small Sacrifices", the book about Diane and what she did.) I lived in Springfield, Oregon, at the time Diane did, but moved to Seattle a month before the murders. I know a lot of the people at the hospital Diane brought the kids to, as my mom worked there at the time (my two sisters still work there). Mom took care of the surviving girl for awhile. She told me once that Diane came in to see her kids (she was with her father). The cops had put the restraining order on Diane by that time, and Diane's father was at the nurse's station, raising hell over not being able to see the kids. Mom said Diane just stood there, with this really creepy smile on her face, all the while that her father was raising hell. Mom said Diane scared her, and my mom doesn't scare easily.

[ncabot22]

101. I agree with you about Diane Downs

I remember reading "Small Sacrifices". What a sick woman! I couldn't believe the reason she shot her children (killing one of them) was to get an old boyfriend, who didn't want kids, back into her life. I felt so sorry for the ex-boyfriend. Can you imagine being the reason someone shot their children?

That being said, no Manson family member should ever get out. I agree that if any do, it will be Van Houten.

[blue neen]

46. The murders happened the night after my fourteenth birthday.

There was an absolutely terrifying chill in the air all over the country, even more so after the LaBianca murders were reported.

We lived through many horrible murders and assassinations in the 60's that took away our innocence forever...JFK, Bobby, Martin, the students at Kent State. The murder of Sharon Tate and friends, however, was mind-boggling in its brutality and evil gruesomeness. No one felt safe in their homes, and I remember feeling frightened to the point of nausea.

I'm not a particularly religious person, but I truly believe that Charles Manson is the devil on earth and Sharon Tate is the angel that went to heaven for his soul.

[peekaloo]

47. Wasn't Doris Day's son the intended target?

Did he live in that same house prior to Sharon Tate?

I had to look up his name, Terry Melcher.

I was really young at the time the murders took place but that damn TV movie scared the be-Jebus outta me.

[SeattleGirl]

48. I can't recall if he was the intended target, but yes, he did live in

that house prior to Sharon Tate.

[peekaloo]

51. Thank you.

I need to re-read that angle again but it seemed Charles Manson was ticked off over a record deal. I think maybe that's how Dennis Wilson (Beach Boys) got involved with CM.

[slj0101]

49. I believe he was an intended target.

Somthing to do with his affiliation with the Beach Boys- namely Dennis Wilson, who took Manson in for a while (until he realized Manson was bonkers).

edit-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Melcher

[SeattleGirl]

52. Oh, right! Because Manson also fancied himself to be a musician.

I forgot about the Wilson connection.

[slj0101]

53. I edited with a wiki entry.

I guess Melcher turned Manson down, though Bugliosi claims Melcher was never an intended target of Manson's

[peekaloo]

54. Thanks.

I think I got it backward. DW introduced CM to Melcher.

[mitchum]

97. And Phil Kauffman (the man who stole and burned Gram Parson's body)...

is the one who introduced Manson to ALL of the LA music/film hip community. Kauffman and Manson met while they were both in prison. Kauffman had been "the dealer to the stars" before his incarceration. Manson was slated to be released before him, so Kauffman essentially provided Manson with a letter of entree so that Manson could help take care of business while Kauffman was awaiting release. That is obvious if you read between the lines of many accounts of the saga.
"Helter Skelter" is essentially a whitewashed account (as was the "official reasons" for the killings)

[peekaloo]

103. Holy shit!

I didn't know about that connection. I could never get all the way through 'Helter Skelter' and maybe you've just pointed out why.

Gram Parsons was a local boy from my old stomping grounds in Central Florida. I won't go into how he was viewed }( but I did love his music.

[mitchum]

104. Manson wasn't acquainted with just Melcher and Wilson...

there was also John Philips (the family stayed with him for several weeks), Cass Elliot, Hopper, and many others. Kauffman was Manson's link to those people.

[Darth_Kitten]

100. apparently......

Yes, he did live in the same house with Candice Bergen.

Big record producer who wouldn't advance Charlie's career.


That was a good movie, the original 1970's one. Yes, creepy, the whole thing. :(

[AlCzervik]

50. Do you think that William Garrison was involved? Maybe Manson or Tex Watson

told him they were going to rob the place and they'd give him some $$$ if he let them in? This must be myder Sunday, i was looking at the web site for the Robin Hood hills murders today.

[Redstone]

55. Dude, you need to lose the obsession. I say this as a friend.

Redstone

[fudge stripe cookays]

57. How do you know he considers you a friend?

Seems a little condescending when you came into his thread just to crap on it.

I don't think he's dealing with an obsession. Lots of people are still interested in the case years later. Dude.

[Redstone]

64. Well, I consinder HIM to be a friend, so why are you stepping into the middle?

This is between him and me. Not including you.

Sorry to have to be so direct, because you and I have gotten along quite well until now...your hostility is very misplaced right here.

Redstone

[fudge stripe cookays]

67. Because your tone is insulting, that's why.

Condescension is never welcome. And he and I ARE friends.

He has not plastered the lounge with Sharon Tate threads, so I'm not sure why you're saying he's OBSESSED with the case. It's rude.

[Redstone]

95. Well, if he minds, maybe HE will tell me. What's your problem?

Redstone

[fudge stripe cookays]

112. I just stated it.

I find your tone insulting.

I also find your airing of your wife's dirty laundry on DU pretty tasteless. Especially since you also post her picture. I'd never said anything until now just because there seemed little point. But since you asked, there it is.

[ronnykmarshall]

73. Oh no you kids ..... don't fight over little ol' me.

Love ya both.

[ronnykmarshall]

69. I know it sounds freaky.

But seriously, I'm not that obsessed with it.

[Redstone]

96. OK. Just checking.

Redstone

[havocmom]

56. My step-mom was LA County Deputy, and was transfered to the Women's Jail

During the trials she had some interesting days working with the details responsible for transporting the women. Judging from her war stories, one would do well not to take ANYTHING Atkins said seriously. Sick puppy.

[johnnie]

58. Interesting trivia

Judge Wapner was the judge that Manson got off the trial, and Rusty was the bailiff for the trial.

[slj0101]

59. PLEASE tell me Doug Lewellyn did the post-trial interview.

:D

[johnnie]

60. lol

[ronnykmarshall]

68. Get OUT!!

I didn't know that.

[Darth_Kitten]

71. I never heard of Judge Wapner, but Rusty was the bailiff

at the Manson trial, I heard.

[johnnie]

72. You never heard of Wapner

Or that he was the first judge?

On edit: Ok, Rusty was the bailiff, but Wapner was the presiding judge over the entire court in Los Angeles County. I thought for sure I read that he was THE judge who was removed. My mistake.

[Darth_Kitten]

74. No, I only heard that Rusty was the bailiff......

but I heard nothing about what Wapner had or didn't have to do with the Manson trials. :)

[johnnie]

80. Ok, this is where I messed up

It was Judge Keene. The one who was the original "Divorce Court" judge. I knew it was a "famous" judge, and for some reason I thought Wapner, probably because of Rusty. I just checked and it was Keene, not Wapner.

[XemaSab]

65. "The Downward Spiral"

is the Best. Album. Ever. :D

[murielm99]

66. That is one scary group.

I remember the murders and the trial. I read Helter Skelter when it first came out. I still have the book.

Thinking about it even now scares me.

Remember when Nixon commented during the trial?

When I look at Manson, I think reincarnation is possible. Manson reminds me of Rasputin. Rasputin had mad eyes, too, and was always surrounded by female admirers.

[meegbear]

77. I picked up "Live Freaky! Die Freaky!" last month ...

when Tower Records was closing, 5 bucks. It's an "interpretation" of the murders done with stop-action animation. One critic said it's one of the most tasteless films he's seen since 'Pink Flamingos'.

[ronnykmarshall]

82. If it's being compared to "Pink Flamingos"

I'm SO there!

[NewWaveChick1981]

81. I was a little kid when it happened, so I really only remember

what was on the news. I read Helter Skelter in 1976, and I was fascinated by the story. :)

[meegbear]

86. You should read "The Famliy" by Ed Sanders ...

excellent book on the group themselves.

[mitchum]

98. Yes! A far better account than "Helter Skelter"...

as is John Gilmore's "The Garbagr People" and Paul Watkins' "My Life With Charles Manson"

[BlueIris]

89. Can I ask a dumb question...?

Why is this on everyone's minds right now? Was there a recent development? Even I was thinking about it this week.

[formerrepuke]

90. Maybe Sharon T's birthday (would have been 64 last Wednesday)..or

maybe Manson's conviction (36 years ago last Thursday). Or maybe just DU coincidence.

[FredScuttle]

92. Maybe because there hasn't been as frightening a time in America since that era

You had the Manson Family murders, Altamont, My Lai and Kent State (just to name a few) all tumbling down together in a short span. America seemed like it was ready to explode.

I never thought we'd experience a time like that again...but I was wrong.

[BlueIris]

93. So, for you, like, '69-70 was the worst (until *)?

Just asking. Sometimes, the anklebiters like to hear the war stories.

My parents say it was 1968, because of the King, RFK assassinations coming within such a short time of one another.

As you may know, Joan Didion wrote that the sixties ended with the Tate/La Bianca murders, though, so, I can see how you would definitely view that as the (other) scariest time.

[FredScuttle]

91. True Hollywood Story

My friend is a filmmaker and he shot a film last year in which Bruce Glover appeared (veteran character actor, played a gay villain in the Bond film "Diamonds Are Forever", father of Crispin). We took him out to dinner one night and listened to his stories. One, in particular, shocked me, almost as much as my first reading of "Helter Skelter" in 1977.

In the summer of 1968, Bruce, his then-wife and Crispin (who was about 4 at the time) went to Will Geer's house in Topanga Canyon for a party. You probably remember Will Geer as the Grandpa on the Waltons. Anyway, Bruce was unloading his car at the bottom of the hill from the house when he noticed a pack of young hippies coming toward them. Bruce didn't feel immediately threatened, but he said he felt a faint sense of menace. Crispin was playing a short distance from the car and, before Bruce could do anything, the short, dark-haired hippie in the front of the pack had his arm around young Crispin and was walking him back to the car.

Bruce came out from around the back of the car and, not wanting a confrontation, decided to play it cool. He spoke with the short man briefly (chit-chat about the weather) and, after a minute or so, the man released Crispin back to his dad. Bruce quickly got his wife and son and walked up to the house, never looking back.

Bruce ended the story by saying the short long-haired hippie who briefly captured his son Crispin was Charles Manson and the pack of hippies with him were the Family.

I nearly spit up my wine. Bruce is a fairly eccentric guy, but I have no reason to believe he's exaggerating this one bit.

I wonder if he ever told Crispin?

[Darth_Kitten]

99. He was right to play it cool.........

Manson was known to hold grudges. (understatement)

You don't make something like that up.

[idgiehkt]

102. Crispin himself is a very strange person

wonder if the vibes he picked up from Manson had an effect on him. Kid are like sponges and they absorb stuff like that.

[mitchum]

105. The Family had probably been to Geer's house before...

they were involved with lots more LA showbiz people than just Wilson and Melcher

[mitchum]

94. It was a contracted HIT because Voytek Frykowsky burned some drug dealers...

Manson agreed to have his family carry out the hit. None of the family (with the possible exception of Tex) knew the true purpose of the massacre. They thought it was all part of "Charlie's vision" The killing of the LaBianca's was just cover for the real nature of the killings at the Polanski household.
One very terrible irony is that Frykowsky had habitually leeched off of Polanski ever since Polanski's success. And, of course, Frykowski's actions ultimately led to the death of Polanski's wife and many others.

[Robeson]

109. That's very interesting. I've never bought the official story...

...line. Your scenario reminds me of the movie "Wonderland". There's always more to what we see.

[enigmatic]

110. I've never heard this

Wow, I'd love to read more about this; this is always been an interesting case to to read about..

[LSK]

108. I need to see this thread right before I got to bed

Now Im freaked. Thanks

:scared:

[Crabby Appleton]

111. watch out for creepy-crawlers!

[noonwitch]

113. I saw an interesting interview once with Leslie Van Houton and Patricia Krenwinkle

the latter had obvious mental health problems, that probably contributed to her getting involved with Manson to begin with. She did take responsibility for her actions, however.

Leslie Van Houton was very interesting, though, because she is pretty and smart. She also accepts responsibility for her actions and is a model inmate, a very good argument against the death penalty. The interview was in the wake of the Waco fiasco, and she was both disturbed by that and by the fact that she had received "fan mail". She wanted to warn young people how easy it is to get caught up in a cult mentality.

I don't think any of them should ever get paroled, but I am against the death penalty, too. "Helter Skelter" presents a pretty bleak picture of Charles Manson's childhood, and it's pretty typical of the kind of people who end up career criminals.