Titanic director finds Jesus' grave

[Bhaisahab]

Titanic director finds Jesus' grave
ibnlive.com
Posted Monday , February 26, 2007 at 11:46
Updated Monday , February 26, 2007 at 18:46

New Delhi: Titanic director James Cameron and Simcha Jacobovici of Exodus fame have produced a documentary which they claim is about to rock the very foundation of Christianity.

Cameron claims the coffins of Jesus Christ and his family have been found at a burial cave in a suburb of Jerusalem, adding that the discovery means Jesus did not rise from the grave - a popular Christian belief, also called the Resurrection.

The 2,000-year-old cave in the Jerusalem suburb of Talpiyot was discovered during construction of an industrial park 27 years ago.

The directors are going to unveil the coffins - which apparently held the remains of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother Mary and Mary Magdalene - for the first time in New York on Monday.

CONTINUED:
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/world/02_2007/titanic-director-finds-jesus-grave-34473.html

[Deep13]

1. I'd like to see how he positively identifies a 2000 year old corpse.

We'll see, I guess.

[Donnachaidh]

6. and how does he use DNA evidence to do so?

Does he have actual *living* people who are documented as descendants of Christ?

I always wondered what Mr. Cameron would do after milking his Titanic fame (and ego) for all it's worth. First King of the World - now King of Kings. :sarcasm:

[Deep13]

8. Also, bone is a poor source of DNA.

Especially if it has been sitting around for awhile.

[Paulie]

15. Teeth seem to be the best chance

but no YDNA extraction, too old. Maybe mitochondria DNA though, since there is generally so much more of it.

[Madspirit]

132. DNA

What good would DNA do without a comparative sample? They have to already have some DNA of this being to compare it to.
I'm so glad I'm an atheist.
Lee

[Dr.Phool]

17. I don't think myths have DNA.

Uh oh.....

:spank: :spank: :popcorn: :spank: :spank:

[alfredo]

34. Joseph Campbell said he was born, lived, and died. The rest

is myth.

My feeling is that he was brought down from the cross in the mistaken belief he died. He was in shock so his body felt cold and life signs may not have been recognized. Things like that still happen.

Under law at that time the family was compelled to visit the burial site to make sure the deceased is really deceased. I guess they had too many instances of people buried alive. He probably woke up from his ordeal, found himself in a crypt. He crawled to the opening, pushed away the stone which was probably much smaller than what is portrayed in Christian media, then crawled away. Most likely his family visited his tomb, found him alive and spirited him away to Damascus. Damascus was where dissidents escaped the wrath of the authorities in Jerusalem. Ascending into heaven is probably a "cover story" or a code word for Syria or some other place where they can hide.

The guards story about being put to sleep by angels can be explained as CYA. Falling asleep on guard duty carried a severe penalty.

[shrike]

49. There are those who believed he survived the crucifixion

An event so rare it would have indeed been miraculous to his followers.

[alfredo]

54. There are people who have survived electrocution and had to have

an extra jolt to do the job right.

We won't know the truth of the matter unless there is some Roman text discovered. Those guys, just like the Egyptians, wrote everything down.


Tom Robbin's book, "Another Roadside Attraction" is about a guy who finds Jesus's body in a crypt under the Vatican.

[Sapere aude]

64. That's as good a story as any I guess if you need a story to believe in.

[idgiehkt]

104. roflmao

:rofl:

[ZombieNixon]

92. As the son of god, Jesus teeth haven't decayed in 2000 years.

Instead, they've turned into diamond-encrusted, precision chopping instruments. :crazy:

[Dr Batsen D Belfry]

10. Image on petrified grilled cheese sandwich of course

They showed it on one of the CSI shows.

DBDB

[Deep13]

18. Of course! How could I have forgotten that? nt

[BlueEyedSon]

56. Dental records.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

101. ...

:spray:

[semillama]

2. I love this story

because I can tell people that James Cameron found Jesus. When they say "good for him" I then tell them that no, he actually found him, or at least his remains. I'm skeptical but really want to see his documentary.

[leftyladyfrommo]

32. Well, except there were no remains in the caskets. No bones.

Just miniscule DNA samples.

[Ishoutandscream2]

3. I'm sorry, but oh boy!

Call me extremely skeptical.

[YOY]

4. So they're sure it's Jesus and not anyone else that died 2000 years ago?

I mean did they check the dental records of the Corpse or something?

[Deep13]

5. Ran His prints and found His rap sheet.

[YOY]

11. That and the semen samples from a knocked up 14 -year-old Evangelist girl

See daddy, I done told you it were Jesus!

[Paulie]

7. I can't wait...

though I seem to recall there were many "Jesus'" at the time.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[HereSince1628]

9. Is Simcha the "naked archeologist?"

Just wondering.

[Paulie]

12. Why Yes he is!

:)

[Wise Doubter]

13. When Gary found Jesus, I thought YAHOO we`re rich !!...

...but it turned out to be something totally different :evilgrin:

[Dracos]

14. Does he really expect people

to take him serious.

[Deep13]

19. Why not? They take the Bible seriously.

[kikiek]

37. Exactly! Just a coincidence that the tombs have the names of all his family members.

More plausible is that he rose from the dead. I had to laugh when CNN put on there that it is Nonsense! You know they're going to try to discredit this as fast and furiously as anything we have seen.

[Megahurtz]

62. Lol! That's Funny!

:7

[Donnachaidh]

43. we ARE talking about James Cameron here

And his ego is reported to be monumental. Probably thinks that anything HE says automatically has *weight* - just because HE said it. :sarcasm:

[struggle4progress]

63. The press conference is marketing for the book "The Jesus Family Tomb"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=113452&mesg_id=113510

[iowa_democrat]

16. Calling Geraldo Rivera.....

I really hope he has found the remains of Jesus, but I remain, in this, as well as many other things, a skeptic. The faithfull don't let little things like facts interfere with their beliefs. I just don't want lots of hype, and another
empty vault, that the Christainists will crow over.

[Canuckistanian]

20. What a crock

I could do this.

1. Find a few remains that would date to around 44AD.

2. Cook up some totally misleading story from a document written 100 years after Jesus'death.

3. Declare you've found the Body of Christ.

4. Set up Swiss bank account.

[aquart]

27. The Church did it for centuries.

Or what were all those relics?

[shrike]

51. Some of them were bodies of saints that didn't deteriorate

Although a fascinating article in Discover Magazine a few years back details how the composition of medieval churches actually preserved bodies.

Interesting about the Shroud of Turin -- did you know it was declared a hoax several times in its history? By the church itself?

[The Stranger]

21. It is about time. Maybe now they can let the guy rest in peace.

[snooper2]

22. amen to that

:)

[Donnachaidh]

23. you're kidding right?

I foresee huge supplies of *toe bones of the Christ* suddenly becoming available on Ebay. :sarcasm:

[sniffa]

24. his toe bones are aLready encased

in cathoLic aLters around the worLd.

[Donnachaidh]

26. and you don't think there will not be a sudden surge in FOUND toe bones?

Please -- images of Jesus found on pieces of toast have caused frenzies. Now a sudden gravesite being found?

"Relics are us" -- it's being born again.

[sniffa]

29. hey, there's a sucker born every minute

mmmm, reLicLicious. :9

[The Stranger]

36. I guess now people can eat the real thing -- transubstantiation, no more.

[hedgehog]

38. Oh come on - can't you come up with some kind of anti-Catholic

rhetoric that at least makes sense?

For what it's worth - Catholics do have a tradition of enshrining relics in their altars; it's a holdover from when Mass was celebrated in catacombs on tombs of martyrs.

[sniffa]

42. sure i couLd

mine makes perfect sense.

you expanded on it, but you said the same thing.

and was that reaLLy anti-cathoLic rhetoric? if cathoLics are embarrassed to have that info pubLic, they shouLd have kept that info private.

[hedgehog]

45. Given that Catholicism believes in the Resurrection, it doesn't

make sense to accuse us of enshrining Jesus' toe bones! As for enshrining relics, that is an ancient and well known practice.

[NashVegas]

25. I See Fundies Going Wild

I think they will gladly give up the resurrection in favor of something physical to claim he actually existed.

[kikiek]

40. I dunno. If the resurrection didn't occur he didn't die for their sins! Got to have something

to grasp onto. People would not believe it no matter what evidence they find. They still want to find the ark. That is more believable.

[go west young man]

69. A little Joseph Campbell goes a long way in that regard.

Campbell explains that there were probably many different arks as well as a number of different flood stories which preceded the bible. H.G. Wells in his outline of history wrote that the "floods" were more than likely the filing of the Mediterranean basins 10's of thousands of years ago.

[kikiek]

76. I will have to rent some of Campbell's DVDs.

[jazzjunkysue]

114. I caught him on public TV a few times. Wonderful. No

attempt to put any myths above others, or put any down.

He's so evolved. But people who want to use religion for their own purposes don't like him because he's so open and soft.

[Zorra]

28. Tom Robbins' novel, "Another Roadside Attraction", was partly

about a guy that stole the mummified body of Jesus from the Vatican and brought it back to the US.

[sarcasmo]

30. Jesus is at my house. I have found Jesus.

[leftyladyfrommo]

31. Archeaologist of the site says this is a crock.

I just read one report on this - there were no bones in the caskets. The miniscule DNA was tested and that of the woman and the man did not match so it was assumed they were married.

Just a lot of hype for a movie. But makes for a good story.

[zbdent]

33. What will piss off the righties is the fact that

(no, not that Jesus was a liberal, but)

Jesus was French!

[Ian David]

35. It could just be Spartacus

[YOY]

79. but, but, but...

I'm Spartacus!

[mcscajun]

39. Al Capone's safe, anyone?

:rofl:

[Perky]

41. ummm they did not use coffins......

[shrike]

50. I wondered about that, too.

What's the guy doing in a coffin?

[Critters2]

94. It's an ossuary--a "bone box" which they did use

I haven't seen the rest of the evidence. If it's something to do with names inscribed on the box, I'd be skeptical. "Jesus" was a very common name in that age, as was "Joseph". Maybe he has more than that. I'll wait and see.

[stopbush]

44. They can do a DNA match against a communion wafer & some wine :)

BTW - notice how they hyped this story just as Xians start Lent and are going into Easter?

[sampsonblk]

111. Yep, same as with the Passion?nt

nt

[hedgehog]

46. This story will attract many who are cultural Christians but who

haven't really studied their faith. There have always been people asking to see where Christ IS buried rather than where he WAS buried. Growing up around Christians, they have collected a lot of scattered facts without understanding the faith.

[johnlal]

47. These things always turn out to be hoaxes.

Remember the supposed ostuary of Jesus's brother? It turned out to be a hoax. The Shroud of Turin is also largely believed to be a hoax. The Davinci Code and it's basis was also a hoax. I believe somebody is trying to replicate the success of Davinci Code, hoping that he will be debunked after the money has already rolled in.

[jberryhill]

65. The DaVinci Code was a *Novel*

That's like saying "Gone With The Wind" has been de-bunked.

[johnlal]

119. Nonetheless, Dan Brown insisted that the basis for the book's plot

Dan Brown vigorously argued that the basis for the book's plot-- that a secret society was guarding the secret of Jesus's bloodline-- was true.

"Gone with The Wind" was a piece of fiction about the Civil War. So was DW Griffith's "Birth of a Nation". I don't think it would be out of line to comment on how true either was to reality, where they profess to touch on real-life events. Same is true with "The Davinci Code"

[go west young man]

73. The Da Vinci Code is a novel based upon the book "Holy Blood Holy Grail".

That book which was very well researched asks serious questions about the foundations of Christianity. Hence the attempt by the church and the right wing media in the U.S. and abroad to downplay the Da Vinci Code as a hoax. The questions the book asks are 1) Did Christ die on the cross? 2) Was he a married father with a bloodline? 3) Do parchments found in South France reveal that secret? 4) Do the parchments reveal that the Holy Grail was a woman/chalice/cup? The cool thing about the Da Vinci Code is that further examples can be found in other works of great artists. Dali's "Last Supper" is a good example. Or the Divine Principle/Golden Mean is Dali's "Nature Morte Vivante". So many questions yet to be answered. The Da Vinci Code should not be thought of as a hoax but instead as a door to what may really be.

[shrike]

82. "Holy Blood Holy Grail" was a book about what turned out to be a hoax

A couple of French guys created a bloodline and "society" called the Priory of Scion, et. al. and planted documents in French libraries. French law enforcement have dealt with them. Google the whole thing if you don't believe me.

There are some very old stories about Mary Magdalene and her companions getting shipwrecked off the coast of France (what they were doing in France has never been explained to me) and a French family called the Merovingians claimed that they had the rightful claim to the French throne because they were descended from Mary Magdalene and Jesus. (Though once again, no one's been able to explain to me what the house of David has to do with France.)

[go west young man]

88. I agree that there are faults in the whole Da Vinci Code/ Holy Blood Holy Grail controversy

but my thoughts are still the same. The books have helped open the door for more critique on who Jesus really was. Here's the Wikipedia link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Blood_and_the_Holy_Grail The criticisms that you mention are there. However it was not the writers of Holy Blood Holy Grail that were convicted for fraud. It was Pierre Plantard who forged documents in 1956 and planted them in the French National Library.

[shrike]

98. Yes, you are right, and I knew that

I'm sorry if my post was not clear. The Holy Blood authors appeared to have been gulled by Plantard along with everybody else. (He was a very strange piece of work; Plantard that is.)

There has been speculation on Jesus' life for centuries. I remember when I was a kid a book came out insisting that Jesus had escaped to Japan after surviving the crucifixion, fathered many children (though not with Mary Magdalene) and died of old age.

I suspect there will be more theories in years to come. And, without any objective proof, one could also argue that the life depicted in the New testament is also someone's "theory."

[johnlal]

120. If the book is a fraud, then it doesn't help at all.

"The books have helped open the door for more critique on who Jesus really was."

Stating false facts doesn't help the debate at all. It only adds extraneous facts to the argument that already existed. People have long argued whether Jesus was a human being or whether he was God. Same with Augustus Caesar, and all other historical figures that were proclaimed to be Gods. A false book doesn't really open the door for more critique. Its falsehood only muddies the waters.

[Chemical Bill]

96. Well, let's see...

The guy who planted the documents is not the whole of the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". I'm fascinated by the subject and wish you wouldn't dismiss something out of hand because one small part of it is not as was said. Please be skeptical, but please investigate before passing judgment. Margaret Starbird set out to disprove the book, and ended up writing "The Woman With the Alabaster Jar", which may shed a little light.

Mary was in France because at the time there were Jews living there that she could hide with. She had reason to hide. There had been an instance recorded of a King killing all children that could possibly have been the same age as a person of interest, so her mother-in-law went to Egypt, remember?

The first thing in the new testament is a genealogy linking David to Jesus. That would make his child of the house of David. The Merovingians were really trying to rule the world, not just France, and the house of David thing was their excuse.

At least that's my opinion. It was a long time ago and the records are a little murky.

Bill

[shrike]

97. How does one prove that Mary Magdalene was in France?

And why France? Sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

I realize this is a very old legend, and some oral traditions do have basis in fact, but I'm just very curious as to what actual evidence is out there.

[Chemical Bill]

102. Sorry, I can't condense the book into a few sentences.

The records are murky, but interesting. I believe very little, but I entertain possibilities beyond the dominant paradigm.

Bill

[shrike]

108. Cameron's alleging that Magdalene is buried in the Jerusalem

tomb. Along with a son named Judah. . .

Well, I guess there are all kinds of theories.

[deadparrot]

48. Archaeologists seem skeptical.

I might have to defer to the experts on this matter. :shrug:

[AllexxisF1]

52. So ...

Are they going to have some big press conference on this apparent shocking news today? Because would'nt Earth shattering information like this be splattered all over the press train.

[frogmarch]

53. Anyone else here see

the 2001 thriller, The Body, starring Antonio Banderas?

"An ancient skeleton has been discovered in Jerusalem in a rich man's tomb. Colouration of the wrist and leg bones indicates the cause of death was crucifixion. Other signs, include a gold coin bearing the marks of Pontius Pilate and faint markings around the skull, lead authorities to suspect that these could be the bones of Christ. Politicians, clerics, religious extremists and those using terror as a means to an end, find their beliefs and identities test while risking their lives to unearth the truth."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0201485/

The plotline of the Jesus tomb docu reminds me of the Banderas movie. (I liked it.)

A couple of novels with a related theme:

The Miracle Strain
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/03/01/RV7370.DTL

The Genesis Code
http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Code-Thriller-John-Case/dp/0345483537/sr=1-1/qid=1172509858/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-6297082-4283928?ie=UTF8&s=books

I'm an atheist, but I still enjoy Jesus-based fiction.

[brentspeak]

55. This is a poor, misleading source

The article says that Cameron CLAIMS to have found Jesus' grave, but the headline makes it sound as if its an established fact that Cameron found the grave.

[CJCRANE]

80. It wasn't even Cameron - he's just publicising it.

It was Israeli construction workers.

[Sin]

57. Don't let Mc Donald's.

Get there hands on that DNA because you know they will have him cloned just so they can have one Jesus in ever Store around the county Multiplying big macs so they can increase there profits. then again can you think of the possibility's Buy your own Jesus clone Great Xmas stocking stuffer ;)

Hold on a second whats that humming noise I hear, o yea its every Catholics Persecution complex turning on at the same time.

[johnlal]

127. Probably not Big Macs

Probably Fillet O' Fish sandwiches, given his experience with loaves and fishes.

[Judi Lynn]

58. Director defends Jesus tomb findings

Director defends Jesus tomb findings
James Cameron is convinced remains are of those of Christ, family
TODAY
Updated: 26 minutes ago
Oscar-winning director James Cameron's controversial new documentary, which claims that Jesus may not have only been buried with a wife, but a son as well, adds an intriguing new piece but certainly doesn't solve the 2,000-year-old puzzle of the life and death of Christ, the filmmaker said in an exclusive interview on TODAY.

“I'm not an archaeologist. I'm a filmmaker,” said Cameron, who won the Academy Award for Best Director in 1998 for Titanic. “I looked at the evidence initially, and as a layman I found it to be compelling .... I haven't seen anything that contradicts the initial hypothesis.”

“The Lost Tomb of Jesus,” which premieres March 4 on the Discovery Channel, chronicles recent efforts to apply modern science and new understanding of Jesus and his followers to the 1980 discovery of a set of ossuaries, or “bone boxes,” under what is now an apartment complex near Jerusalem.

Cameron and investigative journalist Simcha Jacobovici, who wrote a companion book, “The Jesus Family Tomb,” are defending their work against criticism that they are riding the coattails of Dan Brown's “The Da Vinci Code” and are trying to profit from promoting theories discredited by archaeologists when the limestone boxes were discovered 27 years ago.
(snip/...)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17343263/

[kwassa]

60. "trying to profit from promoting theories discredited by archaeologists "

Sounds like standard operating procedure in the world of psuedo-documenatries that fill the cable channels. Make money off the gullible.

[Seldona]

71. Sounds like christianity to me.

[kikiek]

106. Wow you hit the nail on the head in my opinion.

[noonwitch]

59. It sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me

I'm just not buying it. There is no way to prove or disprove this kind of thing after 2000 years.

[kikiek]

61. What makes anything about the bible proven?

[go west young man]

89. Excellent point.

[montanto]

93. in christianity disprovability

IS proof.

[struggle4progress]

66. Scholars criticize new Jesus documentary

2/26/2007, 1:29 p.m. ET
By MARSHALL THOMPSON
The Associated Press

... In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television ...

"It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave," Kloner said. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time."

Archaeologists also balk at the filmmaker's claim that the James Ossuary — the center of a famous antiquities fraud in Israel — might have originated from the same cave. In 2005, Israel charged five suspects with forgery in connection with the infamous bone box.

"I don't think the James Ossuary came from the same cave," said Dan Bahat, an archaeologist at Bar-Ilan University. "If it were found there, the man who made the forgery would have taken something better. He would have taken Jesus." ...

http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/entertainment/index.ssf?/base/entertainment-8/1172502560222650.xml&storylist=entertainment&thispage=2

<edit:> Incidentally, the known history of the so-called "James ossuary" makes it impossible for it to belong to this group: the publicity seekers have typically claimed that "James ossuary" is an ossuary belonging to the Talpiot "family tomb" group and was stolen from a museum courtyard. This theft must have occurred after the Talpiot "family tomb" had been emptied, and the "family tomb" was discovered in 1980. On the other hand, the black-market antiquities dealer who "discovered" the James ossuary has claimed he first bought it in the mid-1970's.

The press conference is marketing for the book "The Jesus Family Tomb"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=113452&mesg_id=113510

[Generator]

67. Let's get the Anna Nichole judge on this stat!

Jerry Siedlin, the world needs your healing touch.

[El Fuego]

124. Maybe JESUS is her baby daddy!!!

[Sapere aude]

Cable news and the right wing talk shows will get months out of this.

Maybe it can fill in for the Iran war coverage about to happen.

[IronLionZion]

68. But they can't find Osama or Jimmy Hoffa!

Ha! Yup this is definitely interesting. While I'm sure the church has been blowing smoke at us since the beginning, I don't think this would destroy it.

And there are a lot of Christians (myself included) who would not be surprised or disappointed if Jesus did have a wife and child. Who knows for sure?

[Chemical Bill]

100. We have a clue.

Jesus was called Rabbi and preached in the Temples, According to Jewish law, he would have had to have been married to do those things. That is still orthodox law. According to Jewish friends of mine, no Jew would have listened to an unmarried man. If he had tried to preach while single, he would have been like Paul, preaching to gentiles. In fact, Jews still can face cultural pressure to be married, according to my friends.

Bill

[redqueen]

70. This is RECOMMENDED?

*sigh*

Panem et Circenses

[struggle4progress]

72. Doesn't seem to be LBN since this noisy speculation dates back more than a decade

Tabor mentions similar 1996 press coverage in his book

Excerpt: 'The Jesus Dynasty' by James D. Tabor

April 7, 2006 — ... Shortly before Easter in 1996 another dramatic story broke: "Jesus Family Tomb Discovered." It was reported that a tomb discovered back in 1980, but never brought to public attention, contained a significant cluster of names associated with the Jesus family, including a Mary, a Joseph, a second Mary, a Jude son of Jesus, a Matthew, and most significantly, a Jesus son of Joseph. The London Sunday Times paraded the story in a full front-page feature article under the title "The Tomb That Dare Not Speak Its Name" on March 31. On Easter morning the BBC aired a feature documentary on the tomb titled The Body in Question. The Associated Press, Reuters, and Gannett quickly cobbled stories from this initial in-depth treatment, and supplemented them with their own reports filed by correspondents who descended in droves upon unsuspecting officials of the IAA in the Old City of Jerusalem and clamored to know more ...

http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/Books/story?id=1746724&page=1

This "news" seems to me to be merely promo for the book coming out tomorrow and the "documentary"

[yellowcanine]

74. If they can get DNA - just need to show homozygosity at every locus.

In a virgin birth situation the chromosomes in the nucleus of the egg would have to be doubled to have a viable embryo. The evidence of this should show up in the DNA. So if they can get DNA they are home free. Of course if it weren't a virgin birth, all bets are off.

[Sin]

78. And even if it doesn't

At birth she was supposed to be Virgin in their myth but there was conception through magical means ( arc angle Gabriel visiting her telling her she will have gods son ya da ya da) so that would make half of the DNA present God's DNA. O screw the toe bones to sell on Ebay, limited time offer get your God DNA enhanced weight lost pills today.

[Wednesdays]

75. If true, and it's a HUGE if...

Cameron claims the coffins of Jesus Christ and his family have been found at a burial cave in a suburb of Jerusalem, adding that the discovery means Jesus did not rise from the grave - a popular Christian belief, also called the Resurrection.

...doesn't disprove the Resurrection, it just disproves the Ascension.

[gasperc]

77. being that there were probably 30,000 people named Jesus at the time

that this one is THE Jesus that we all know I suppose is plausible

[yellowcanine]

112. I saw a pickup the other day that said "Lawns by Jesus". Maybe next time I will stop the guy and

ask him for a DNA sample.

[johnlal]

128. It's like trying to find Patrick and Bridget in Ireland

[CJCRANE]

81. It's too soon n/t

[shrike]

83. DUers sure can be gullible when something fits into their pet prejudices

Like the rest of humanity, I guess.

[roguevalley]

85. I find it interesting. Just because its someone like Cameron doesn't

make the potential of this to be something very, very interesting, given good work on the site. I guess I'm not so fast to ridicule people's beliefs just because a portion of them are crypto-fascist heretics that have hijacked an entire belief system. I don't step on atheists either. More power to them but its rather sad to watch the almost knee jerk reaction to religion that always happens here when something comes up. Don't believe. Kick the heretic fascists if you want to. I do. But for a lot of sincere, decent people, this is important. It may not be true. It may. Time will tell.

As for the mythology, that was applied a hundred years after the death of this good and great man. He was never divine before that and no one ever heard of a virgin birth for him. It was the application of mythology from a dozen other religions that turned him from a great teacher and leader into the state he is in now. It wasn't his fault. It wasn't mine. It doesn't detract from his message and from the millions and millions who try and live what he taught.

I hope Cameron is right. What a great thing, having artifacts of the rabbi. Also, how nice to know that this man would have had a life and a family. I prefer to wait and see. And I don't have to do it mocking anyone for their beliefs or their lack of belief. I sure wish others would too. Flame me if you want to but it seems that for some topics, decency and courtesy doesn't apply. Too bad.

[Mad_Dem_X]

86. Excellent post

"I guess I'm not so fast to ridicule people's beliefs just because a portion of them are crypto-fascist heretics that have hijacked an entire belief system. I don't step on atheists either. More power to them but its rather sad to watch the almost knee jerk reaction to religion that always happens here when something comes up. Don't believe. Kick the heretic fascists if you want to. I do. But for a lot of sincere, decent people, this is important. It may not be true. It may. Time will tell."

Well said!

[roguevalley]

87. thank you, sweetie. I will still keep my flame retardant undies on though.

:evilgrin:

[shrike]

95. Respecting others' beliefs? This is DU

I'm not interested in flaming you, but I'm always fascinated by the schizophrenic attitudes on this site.

One week Jesus is imaginary, another week they've found his "tomb" -- and hurrah, he's not divine.

It just amazes me sometimes, the gyrations people will go through to be "right." I don't know what your particular beliefs are -- I was raised Catholic myself -- but I will say that if you think my post was "mean," I don't know that you've been paying attention to this site lately.

And seeing that this site is 10 years old and archaeologists are already speaking up about this "find" says something to me, AND that Yeshua is such a common name, I have my doubts.

And I'd be very surprised if they were able to prove anything definitive about this tomb, eithee way.

[roguevalley]

110. I am not saying boo about whether its true or not. What is so damned

tiresome is the idiotic commentary that is always coming along. Some atheists mock believers and feel that they have the right. I don't recall any believers mocking atheists on this board. I am open to information that says otherwise. I don't care WHAT anyone believes. I just am sick of comments that demean people. I guess I am also sick of the mocking of dead and suffering people too, as if the publicity they get is their fault. Britney Spears is obviously unwell and Anna Nicole Smith is dead. Unfortunately, for some, that is funny.

[shrike]

123. Well, I can certainly agree about Spears and Smith

I can remember watching about three minutes of Smith's reality show and thinking its producers should be locked up, for exploiting a person who had such obvious problems.

And I guess I'm getting cynical enough to think this is just one long show they're giving us -- first the crazy astronaut, now Anna and Britney, now Jesus' tomb.

Have a good one.

Shrike

[SPKrazy]

130. Great Post!

So totally agree 100% with your post Roguevalley.

The message is what's important, not the mythology.

Those whose life is based on the mythology are not going to believe this no matter what.

Those that realize that mythology is what it is, and that the message of Jesus is the important thing, have not gained or lost anything here except that someone found the remains (if they are) of Jesus.

:applause:

I support you and will stand by with fire extinguisher for you!

[roguevalley]

131. thank you, southpawkicker.

:-D

[Rowdy Church]

84. Jesus Who?

I doubt very seriously Cameron has found the burial place of Jesus Christ of the Bible. I mean the whole story was concocted and made up. I mean besides the Bible - has anyone ever found any contemporary documentation from government sources or other historians from 2000 years ago that even mention Jesus or his so-called miracles or for that matter his execution? I mean if he was such a threat and caused such a stink for the leaders of his day -- surely his contemporaries would've known his name and reputation and he'd surely have warranted a footnote by some Roman historian of the time - there are blow-by-blow accounts of the Roman occupation of this region at the time of his so-called life and yet no mention of a man named Jesus.

Except of course the so called books of the New Testament in the Bible. The whole narrative of Jesus being born of a virgin is of course straight out of Egyptian myth or for that matter even Greek mythology. Besides the Paul of the New Testament many of the other book's origins and authors are still unverified and contain many contradictions. And Paul of course did not even know this Jesus personally - he never he met the man. So Paul is really no different than any of the preachers we have today -- perpetuating and enhancing the myth of a God-man.

No. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Jesus' life on earth has ever been anything but a fantastical myth that may have been rooted in some simple truth and then exploited.

Where is the proof that he ever really existed? There isn't any and a tomb filled with empty coffins labeled with the names of Jesus' so-called family members still would not offer proof that he ever really existed.

[Chemical Bill]

105. I've read that Josephus mentioned some events...

that can be linked to the biblical accounts. Scholars are publishing many books now about what was and wasn't in the earliest documents that are now part of the new testament. The whole field leaves plenty of wiggle room, and arenas for speculation. I don't dismiss the whole story, and the book of Matthew has some great stuff about helping the poor, loving your neighbor as yourself, and so forth. You know, good advice either way.

I have a hard time with Paul too.

Bill

[Rowdy Church]

113. THE SILENT RECORD: the futile case for an HISTORICAL JESUS

AS the son of a Southern Baptist Minister I spent a great deal of my life seeking to find empirical evidence or some shred of information that could provide a foundation for the fantastical leaps of faith that xtians are called to make to buy into the premise of a God-Man born of a virgin myth.

In a nutshell I rebelled like hell and was tired of hearing my father answer my queries with "its a matter of faith" or even better -- as long as you live under my roof you'll worship and I dictate. So I read, debated and explored for myself.

What I find utterly amazing is the fact that the majority of xtians do not even know a great deal about the origins of xtianity or how it was manipulated for pure political advantage post Roman conversion.

Needless to say I no longer buy into it and find it suspect on many levels. That is not to say that I disagree with your assessment that there are some kernels of good sprinkled here and there - turning the other cheek, forgiveness, doing unto others and helping the poor and the meek shall inherit .. and all that.

I'll reply to your statement about Josephus -- as a contemporary writer of the era -- by posting an excerpt from this research from a source I found while debating this very subject that I found to be compelling.

--

THE SILENT RECORD: the futile case for an HISTORICAL JESUS:

SNIP

Many have tried to establish the veracity of the historical god-man, jesus, in a convincing & scholarly way. NONE have succeeded.
Clearly, there were NO eye-witness accounts in the bible...NONE. Further, there are no contemporaneous accounts, period! All that is left, at best, is HEARSAY for evidence. There is good reason that belief in such unsubstantiated, supernatural, para-normal phenomena cannot be rational or coexist within the edifice of reality, as revealed by science... but must be relagated to "otherwordly faith".

What then, did the many historians & scribes say of this jesus fellow... working his miracles... followed by 'multitudes' (Mt. 4:24: known throughout "all of Syria")... this 'god made flesh'? Surely, there is a solid, historical record as this was a very literate time, with at least THIRTY noted pagan writers during the alleged time of jesus. Of these thirty or more, who works were voluminous, we only have very brief references from three: Pliny, Seutonius & Tacitus, who wrote at the beginning to the second century, long after the alleged god-man's death. Let's take a look, shall we?

PLINY the younger: a governor in asia minor... wrote a very short memo to the Emperor Trajan (112 CE) regarding how to best deal with unruly, agitating 'christians' ...but alas, no historical references to a unique jesus or christ.

SUETONIUS (Life of the Ceasars): merely documents around 120 CE the Emperor Claudius (41-54 CE) expelled the Jews from Rome: "since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of CHRESTUS, he expelled them from Rome". However, one very large problem for apologists: there is absolutely no evidence putting jesus in Rome! Futhermore, 'Chrestus' means "The Good" in Greek, while "Christus" means "the Messiah"...& of course, many Jews claimed this status. Thus, we just have another account of christians causing problems for the Roman state.

TACITUS: in his account of the fire in Rome (64 CE), regarding Nero blaming the christians: "Nero fabricated as scapegoats, and punished with every refinement, the notoriously depraved christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, one Christus, has been executed in Tiberius' reign by the PROCURATOR of Judea, Pontius Pilate. But in spite of this temporary setback the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judea (where the mischief started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital".

Tacitus was, like Pliny, a governor, and clearly familiar with the troublesome christians, is writing about 50 years (112 CE) hence. His report was temporally remote & could only reflect what he has in turn heard, or mere (biased?) hearsay. The Romans kept extensive and detailed legal records, and yet, there is NO such record of a trial or execution under Pontius Pilate! What is most interesting, is the error of refering to Pilate as the 'procurator' of Judea, when in fact, he was the Roman PREFECT... the title procurator refered to a Roman administrative office in the second-half of the first century, a bit suspect to say the very least!

However, read what scholar Dr. Gordon Stein wrote in 1982: "Perhaps most damning to the authenticity of this passage is the fact that it is present almost word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (died in 403 A.D.), where it is mixed in with obviously false tales. At the same time, it is highly unlikely that Sulpicius could have copied this passage from Tacitus, as none of his contemporaries mention the passage. This means that it was probably not in the Tacitus manuscripts at that date. It is much more likely, then, that copyists working in the Dark Ages from the only existing manuscript of the Chronicle, simply copied the passage from Sulpicius into the manuscript of Tacitus which they were reproducing." Even the Catholic University scholar John P. Meier allows that Tacitus and Pliny do not help to establish Jesus' historicity: "reflect what they have heard Christians of their own day say", and so are not "independent extracanonical sources" (art. in Biblica, vol. 80 (1999), p. 466)

Of course, writers like: Seneca (4BCE-65CE) among Rome's most prolific writers; Pliny the Elder (23-79 CE), Quintilian (39-96CE), Plutarch (46-119 CE), Epictetus (55-135 CE), Apollonius, Lucanus, Ptolemy, Hermogeones, Columella...Valerius Flaccus & Valerius Maximus, among others, were absolutely silent on the alleged 'god made flesh'...astounding!

Tacitus in "The Annals" as well as Josephus (below), also wrote of Hercules, the most famous mythic god-man of the Greeks, with "believers", dedicated temples, and whose "life" parallels to some degree that of the alleged jesus, as if they were "real" historical figures. A rational person is left to conclude, much like Albert Schweitzer after his exhausive search, that this alleged god-man jesus, never had any real historical existence.

Oh, but what of the Jewish historians?

PHILO Judaeus (20 BCE-50 CE): a Greek speaking jewish philosopher and theologian who lived near Jerusalem & would have been a contemporary of the alleged jesus... was a prolific writer, perhaps the greatest Jewish-Greek historian... relates much about Pontius Pilate, but NEVER MENTIONS JESUS, the Christ! The fact that a jesus figure is utterly absent from his writings, which included matters spiritual and many themes reflected in the NT, is absolutely crushing to those hoping some credible evidence of a jewish god-man.

JUSTUS of Tiberius: importantly, he lived near Capernaum, where jesus allegedly visited often, but again, NO MENTION of CHRIST, in his lengthy history of his time... back to that of Moses! Though his writings have been lost in time, his works were referenced by the 9th century scholar, Photius the patriarch of Constantinople (Bibleotheca, Code 33) in the late 9th century: "of the advent of Christ, of the things that befell him one way or another, or of the miracles that he performed, (Justus) makes absolutely no mention."

Flavius JOSEPHUS (Antiquities 93 CE): a native of Judea, a Pharisee and governor of Galilee... writting about the same time as other (unknown) gospel writers, noted every important event and person in Palestine through 70 CE. However, he has but one isolated paragragh, often quoted by desparate Christian apologists, searching for their ephemeral, historical jesus. This paragraph was a clear INTERPOLATION, a forgery, as it is completely intrusive into the narrative and it is not written in the author's style. This interpolation has this orthodox Jewish author dutifully summarizing Jesus' life & teaching ...his status as the Messiah...his crucifixtion & resurection...and the 'tribe of Christians'...in essence the whole mythology of christianity crammed into just ONE paragrapgh, but then unexplicably, follows that narrative with:

"About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder..."! Of course, removing the passage, allows the original narrative to flow logically, which was indeed a series of harrowing stories which have befallen the Jews. Further, it is utterly illogical for Jesephus to compare the christ narrative to "another sad clamity which put Jews into disorder", since that sort of sentiment would only make sense to a christian propagandist!!

Dr. Nathaniel Lardner (in 1838), a very capable christian apologist, quotes Bishop Warburton in his scholarly "Works", Vol. I, chap. iv: "If a Jew owned the truth of Christianity, he must needs embrace it. We, therefore, certainly conclude that the paragraph where Josephus, who was as much a Jew as the religion of Moses could make him, is made to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ, in terms as strong as words could do it, is a rank forgery, and a very stupid one, too"

Additonal strong evidence that the good Pharisee, Josephus, would have never written such an account, comes from the early church father, Origen, a meticulous scholar, who acknowledged that Josephus did NOT believe in Jesus as 'the Christ'. In fact, the pro Roman sympathizer, Josephus, did not believe in ANY jewish messiahs (& there were various ones about), but accepted the Roman Emperor Vespasian as the prophesied one, because he was declared Emperor, when in Judea!

Futhermore, the early apologist Clement of Alexandria, would have CERTAINLY utilized this alleged 'historical' passage from Josephus's Antiquites, but of course, since it was inserted later, he never does. It suddenly appears in the 4th century, when Bishop Eusebius (a notorious church propagandist and close ally of Constantine) obtains a manuscript of Antiquities in which the "Testimonium" miraculously appears! Strangely, other copies of the Antiquities do NOT contain this discredited passage. A scholar named Vossius, in the sixteen century, had a manuscript of Josephus, in which the passage was absent! In fact, not a single apologist writing before the 4th century like Clement above or Justin Martyr, Jerome, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian and others, seems to be aware of this "blockbuster" passage in "Antiquities"!

The only other mention in Antiquities, refers to the killing of "James, the brother of Jesus , him called Christ', and his trial before the Sanhedrin. There is good reason to believe that the reference was modified, as Josephus would have likely referred to a (generic) "James, the Brother of the Lord". Also, it may have refered to "James the Just" (an historical figure), who had the title: "Brother of the Lord". Further, the phrase "him called Christ" was used instead by christian authors and appears in Matthew (1:16) and John 4:25-26! There are also some manuscripts where this passage is absent as well.

As telling as the above, is the fact that in Joshepus's Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, which details the reign of King Herod, especially the many brutalities, utterly fails to mention the gospel story of his ordering the supposed "slaughter of innocents" by his legions, the systematic killing of all male infants in or around Bethlehem of 2 years or less, in a jealous rage after being "tricked by the three wise men"...an inexplicable omission... unless the event was fictional.

In his recent book, Joseph Atwill's "Caesar's Messiah" (Uylesses Press 2005), a rather convincing case is made that the origins of the jesus myth arose with the Emperor Titus (39-81 CE), son (along with Domitian) of the Emperor Vespasian (successor to Nero), in conjunction with their adopted court historian Flavius Josephus (formerly Josephus bar Matthias). Vespasian and Titus were instrumental in crushing the very costly Jewish revolt, which finally ended at Masada (73 CE), and the myth of a peace-loving messiah was concocted as post-war propaganda ("Evangelion" meaning the "good new of military victory", or "gospel" in English) to prevent further uprisings of violence-prone, messianic jews. Josephus' "War of the Jews" (written at the time of the gospels), provided the context, the history for the interwoven narrative of the gospels, which Atwell contends was largely written by Flavian Dynasty (69-96 CE) intellectuals. The "Flavain" NT was certain that the Caesar's authority was respected, Roman soldiers were characterized as "devout" (Acts 10: 1-2), paying taxes encouraged (Romans 13: 2-6)... and the new teachings led by a pacifist messiah, whose "kingdom" was "not of this earth". It seems to solve the problem of Rome's entrenched persecutorial stance towards christians which suddenly and improbably, becomes its very center!

Titus was in fact "the son of a god", since his father, the Emperor died and was deified... and his military campagin paralleled the alleged ministry of jesus: beginning in Gallile and ending in Jerusalem: Josephus wrote: Titus attacks Jewish rebels led by Jesus. The rebels are aboard boats, which the Romans sink. Drowning Jews are killed by darts, spears, and swords. The Romans laugh; they are "fishing for men." Jesus: "I will make you fishers of men." Josephus: Vespasian sends his son, Titus. Jesus: "Sent by his father." Josephus: Siege of Jerusalem. Mary of the village of Bethezob is starving. Ravenous others of the besieged keep stealing what little food she can get. Desperate, she kills her infant son, roasts him, eats half, then hides the rest. Soon, her grotesque meal is smelled and it is demanded that she share. Replies Mary: "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food, for I have eaten of it myself!" Jesus: "He took bread, blessed it, and broke it. He gave it to them saying, 'Take this, it is my body.'" There are over a dozen clear literary parallels Atwill exposes between Josephus' narrative of Titus' military exploits and the "jesus-story", which occur in exactly the same order!

Finally, and most intriguing, it gives perhaps a more plausible explanation to the infamous "Testimonim" passage, which can now be seen in an entirely new and logical light.

SNIP

--

ALBERT SCHWEITZER concluded in his work "The Quest of the Historical Jesus": "The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the ethic of the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give His work its final consecration, NEVER HAD ANY EXISTENCE. He is a figure designed by rationalism, endowed with life by liberalism, and clothed by modern theology in an historical garb."

[Orsino]

90. Cue the Hollywood Jewish Atheist Conspiracy graphic. n/t

[Lilith Velkor]

91. Pardon the expression, but

Jesus Christ! :wow:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

99. I don't see how they could possibly prove this...

DNA or no DNA.

[matcom]

103. Well, finding a dead messiah beats the HELL out of making shitty movies

is Celine burried in that tomb as well?

[Critters2]

107. Titanic....second worse movie of all time

after the Demi Moore version of The Scarlet Letter. But it's a close race.

[Cannikin]

115. Showgirls. Lest we forget.

[Critters2]

117. God, there are so many bad movies out there.

It's like life is one long episode of MST3K.

[Darth_Kitten]

109. Will Celine Dion sing the soundtrack on the documentary?

My ego will go on?

[bif]

116. Tomb read Jesus-b. 1 B.C d.33 A.D.

I get it.

[Seabiscuit]

118. You mean they finally found Jimmy Hoffa?

[MissMillie]

121. I was just thinking the same exact thing

gmta

[peekaloo]

122. I can see Cameron standing in the coffin yelling"He's King of the Jews!".

then it hits an iceberg.

[Sequoia]

125. Jesus rose from the grave so how can he be in there.

What a bunch of bunk. He's just trying to get in the good graces of the fundies. Don't believe him, he should stick to the ocean.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

126. I hope they got Leonardo DiCaprio (sp?) to play Jesus

He'd be great on the cross - "the view is amazing, I feel like I'm flying!"

Or is this whole thing just another "Al Capone's Vault"?

[kickysnana]

129. Friend born in Gujarat told me about this about 6 years ago.

Might be true might be like the many Jesse James wannabes. People have been the same forever.