‘That’s so gay’ prompts a lawsuit

[Cannikin]

SANTA ROSA, Calif. - When a few classmates razzed Rebekah Rice about her Mormon upbringing with questions such as, "Do you have 10 moms?" she shot back: "That's so gay."

Those three words landed the high school freshman in the principal's office and resulted in a lawsuit that raises this question: When do playground insults used every day all over America cross the line into hate speech that must be stamped out?

After Rice got a warning and a notation in her file, her parents sued, claiming officials at Santa Rosa's Maria Carillo High violated their daughter's First Amendment rights when they disciplined her for uttering a phrase "which enjoys widespread currency in youth culture," according to court documents.

But school officials say they took a strict stand against the putdown after two boys were paid to beat up a gay student the year before.

continued:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17388702/

[terrya]

1. The authorities were trying to educate this girl.

Hell, obviously the parents aren't doing a good job of educating her.

"That's so gay" is a insult. It's used as the ultimate putdown. And given the beating of the gay student, it's time to let students know that words can have repercussions.

[Darth_Kitten]

4. But her religion can be mocked?

Political correctness has run amok.

[terrya]

5. How many instances have there been of students beaten up....

due to their religious beliefs?

[NashVegas]

10. In This Case

The girls who were doing the teasing were engaged in harrassing behavior. They were committing an action against another person.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Clearly, you're not a Muslim in the U.S. (nt)

[Hugin]

17. They used to burn witches... nt

[treestar]

59. There have been adults outright executed for their religious beliefs

History 101?

[Cannikin]

75. And there are many who have been murdered or beaten for being gay.

http://www.matthewsplace.com/

[Darth_Kitten]

84. Lots of people murdered for their religious beliefs as well......

it's ALL wrong of course

Kids taunting each other in the schoolyard shouldn't warrant so much attention. I mean, if this is the worst they are doing.... :eyes:

Geez.....

[Cannikin]

91. I agree but I dont remember the last time I heard kids getting paid to beat someone up over it.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

19. ooh, good one.

i was gonna go for any one of these:

[Darth_Kitten]

82. Geez, I guess you two are only on the side of fairness.....

when it has to do with yourselves. Sad.

Uh, yeah, even openly religious people have rights? That okay?

[sniffa]

98. yeah, that's exactLy right

:boring:

[Zuiderelle]

105. These openly religious people, actively protested against a rally supporting homosexual students.

I think they have a huge agenda in bringing this suit.

[Darth_Kitten]

81. Oh, is this some kind of insult?

this is the best you could do?

[Darth_Kitten]

83. n/t

n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. her religion shouldnt have been mocked. i think they should all be sued.

chances are though the kids that mocked the religion werent gay. so they "thats so gay" comment was creating a hostile atmosphere for a third party.

[Duncan Grant]

28. There's nothing right about either instance. Both are wrong.

I thought that was a given...

[XemaSab]

95. No shit.

n/t

[Duncan Grant]

29. Dogpile on terrya!

Cause we all know you're such a bigoted religion hater! :evilgrin: :loveya:

[terrya]

30. That's me.

Every Sunday, I get together a gang of rough homosexuals, like me, and head over to the nearby Catholic Church just to beat up on some poor, defenseless religious people.

It makes my head hurt, reading some of this stuff. :eyes:

Thanks, 94114_San_Francisco. :-)

:loveya:

[Zuiderelle]

31. "gang of rough homosexuals" !

:rofl:

Makes a great picture in my mind. :D

[terrya]

32. Don't laugh.

We're mean. We carry baseball bats...but in lovely pastel colors.

:-)

[Zuiderelle]

33. Silly. Those are called wiffle bats. I think I found one of your gang-members.

[Duncan Grant]

36. Gay thugs.

That's hot. :evilgrin:

[pitohui]

77. exactly, they would not have allowed her to use the n-word

they should also not allow insults based on gender, orientation, and so on -- esp. when it's documented "them's fightin' words"

the lawsuit is groundless and it sounds like the parents are treasure seekers, i hope they get their ass handed to them in court

[northzax]

2. the school would have more credibility here

if they also disciplined the students taunting her about her religion.

[mainegreen]

3. Crap, I misunderstood.

I thought for a second someone was suing the girl for saying that. :crazy:

The school was totally right for doing what it did.

[NewJeffCT]

7. I don't think the school did anything wrong regarding warning the girl

If the policy had been to take a strict stand because of the beating incident only a year before, it was something that was likely mentioned, if not emphasized, at the beginning of the school year.

That said, I think the students that mocked the girl's religious beliefs should have been warned as well.

[LanternWaste]

8. I honestly do see this as a double-standard...

My opinion--

Asking the student in question if she has ten moms is as uncivil and as unwarranted as the student's reply. Both should either be punished equally or not at all.

I honestly see this as a double-standard as it's difficult for me to imagine that young ladies who initiated the confrontation would perceive a physical threat of intended violence from a fifteen-year old Mormon girl.

[pitohui]

78. it is not a double standard under the law

we have a provision in the laws of most if not all states that you cannot use "fighting words" -- calling someone a nazi or the n-word would be example of words used to start fights

in this case it is known that labeling someone "gay" was the cause of a fight and a student being gay-bashed

clearly throwing "gay" around as an insult is wrong and aga. at least the civil code

being rude -- asking if someone has 10 moms -- is not very nice but it is not "fighting words," it is just standard assholery

has anyone ever in the history of the world been bashed or in turn started a fight themselves because they had 10 moms or were accused of having 10 moms, erp, no, don't think so

both kids were rude, but only one kid went over the line

everyone here would agree that she should have been disciplined if she'd called them by a racial slur, so why is it OK for her to use the slur based on orientation?

[LanternWaste]

104. I'm not sure how you inferred that I think it's ok to use a slur...

I'm not sure how you inferred that I think it's ok to use a slur based on orientation as I certainly don't believe that.

My overall point is that it appears both sides went over the line-- one mocked another's orientation, the other mocked the one's religion. Both uncivil, both unwarranted, both hateful and both should be punished.

Now, on this statement of yours..., "has anyone ever in the history of the world been bashed or in turn started a fight themselves because they had 10 moms or were accused of having 10 moms, erp, no, don't think so"

I think you're missing a larger point. One could have just as validly (if not more so) asked, "has anyone in the history of the world been bashed or in turn started a fight because of their religion" and the answer to that is an emphatic yes.

After reading the story, it seems to me that the altercation was indeed started by those who threw the first verbal punch, and in this case that points to the group of young ladies.

My opinion-- both were rude, both went over the line, both should be punished.

[Darth_Kitten]

85. It is a double-standard..........

but try saying that here. :eyes:

[LanternWaste]

106. Let me also qualify...

Let me also qualify... I'm certainly not talking about state or federal laws that may or may not have broken. I speaking to the punishment that the school should be administering.

I really have no idea if one or the other group broke a federal or state statute, but I think we can all agree that schools can and do punish students all the time for things that are not against the law... e.g., infractions for tardiness, not suiting up for gym, etc...

As for the lawsuit itself, one must bear in mind American's have the right (which we seem to practice to an extreme) to sue anyone for any reason. The point that one side is preparing a lawsuit and other is not, is not indicative to me that one and only one side does in fact have the law on their side while the other is hanging in the wind, so to speak.

Darth... I know this reply doesn't actually address your response to me, but it seemed like a convenient place to ad a few qualifiers to my original statement. As for you-- have a GREAT weekend :)

[NashVegas]

9. Double Standards, Big Time

Why were the girls who were engaging in religious harrassment not disciplined, as well?

[twiceshy]

12. My very liberal kids and their friends.............

Use the expression all the time.....it's a throw away remark. I suspect even a lot of GBLT kids use it.

[bicentennial_baby]

13. Bullshit...If your kid were a liberal

they'd understand that it's not a throw away remark, and very offensive to GLBT people...

[Zuiderelle]

14. Maybe you should explain to them why it's offensive to gay people.

Since they are liberal, they should understand. We should be educating our children about insensitive language, or it will never stop. Both sides of this case were wrong, those insulting the girl's religion and the others using a phrase insulting to gay people.

[terrya]

15. Yeah, those kids should just "lighten up"

Gosh, it's only some insult.

No, contrary to your comment, "a lot" of GLBT kids do NOT use that perjorative comment.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kajsa]

20. I hear the "it's so gay" comment used, also.

I substitute teach in our local high schools.

Whenever I hear it, or any other comment degrading someone's beliefs, sexual orientation,
disabilities (" that's so retarded"), etc. I pounce on it like a tiger.

I remind the students that these words/ expressions are hate words even though they
may be cleverly disguised as acceptable because " everyone says it".
Less than 30 years ago, the "N" word was prevalent in many areas of the South and US.
That never made it acceptable and fortunately, the word has finally gained its
well deserved reputation for being the ugly racial slur it is.
Btw, " retarded" used as a put down is the 'N' word for disabled people.
Just ask my son who has autism.

" Innocent" hate words lead to stronger hate words.
Hate words can and often do lead to hate crimes.
It's a very vicious cycle.

[Zuiderelle]

21. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[Kajsa]

22. Thank you, PelosiFan.

:hi:

[Duncan Grant]

39. Great post. Thanks for the context!

And thanks for being a leader not a follower. :yourock:

[Kajsa]

72. Thank you 94114 San-Francisco!

You're welcome.

:pals:

[Catfight]

58. THIS IS THE BEST RESPONSE EVER! THANK YOU! nt

[Kajsa]

73. You're welcome,Catfight!

Thank you for the kind words.

:pals:

[Common Sense Party]

64. Exactly. I cannot count how many times I've seen "retarded"

used as an insult among supposedly "enlightened" DUers.

I'm with you. My son is severely autistic, and I jump on anyone who uses such a hurtful term.

[Kajsa]

74. Many people don't realize the impact

of that word.

We do, because we know how much it hurts
our sons and other people with disabilities.

:pals:

[NMMNG]

89. Excellent comments

Just because "everybody does it" doesn't make it acceptable.

[Kajsa]

102. Thank you so much,Buffy !

I appreciate the kind words.

:pals:

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. My very liberal 17 year old (happy birthday baby) kid knows better.

Knows she would be the biggest kind of hypocrit and also realizes how damaging it can be. It isn't a throw away remark for a child who struggles with who he/she is IMO.

[Bluebear]

24. What other pejoratives do your very liberal kids throw away?

Oh, and their very liberal friends, too?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

25. Imagine if they weren't very liberal.

They might be swinging moderate bats.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gormy Cuss]

48. There's a big difference between phrases and words that may offend someone, and

phrases and words that have a HIGH likelihood of offending someone, and using 'gay' as a pejorative is the latter, just as racial epithets are. It's not some seldom understood offense, like saying that you were gypped. Most people don't connect that with Romany and therefore don't realize it's an offensive word. Gay on the other hand is understood universally by adults in the country, and by most teens.

[LostinVA]

26. Liberal people do NOT use slurs

:sigh:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

52. I wouldn't suspect as much.

Does it bother you when you hear your child and their friends use such language?

[Cannikin]

76. Uh...sorry but your suspicion is incorrect. Welcome to DU.

[foreigncorrespondent]

79. Oh what a butt load of crap!

#1: you kids and their friends really aren't as liberal as you would like to think.

#2: kids that grow up with gay parents, or are gay themselves usually know better than to use their parents or themselves in such a vile negative way.

[Darth_Kitten]

86. Gee, there's criteria now to belong to the "liberal club"?

You have to think a certain way?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

90. Well, not using homophobic language is some pretty good criteria, don't you think?

[Darth_Kitten]

92. Well, of course, I'm not selective as to who DESERVES rights or

who doesn't.....maybe ask all those people who can't look beyond their own noses why it's okay and fine to have double-standards?

Is that fair? Even people we may not agree with deserve fairness, not just people on the "right" side.

[foreigncorrespondent]

94. So are you saying...

...because you have responded to Haruka who responded to your comment which was a direct reply to me, that I am a person who is selective as to who deserves rights? Because after all, I said nothing of the kind. In fact I have not made my feelings known about this whole situation have I?

[foreigncorrespondent]

93. Absolutely not!

But it usually isn't people with both liberal or progressive ideas that go around stating things like "that's so gay" etc, now is it?

[twiceshy]

99. Well I guess I got schooled on this one.

I'll have to reconsider it and ask my kids why they use the expression when they do.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

100. Regardless of what they give as the meaning, it's rooted in homophobia.

Tell them that and get them to knock it off. If they're "very liberal," they will understand.

[Duncan Grant]

34. "enjoys widespread currency in youth culture" - Now that's a defense against bigotry!

Jeez, I love the angle of this story: Little Mormon girl punished for saying "that's so gay". It's a RW wet dream and even people here at salivating over it. :eyes:

Probable comments to be overheard regarding this story:

Uppity fags are destroying our religious heritage.

It's the homosexual agenda!

Children aren't even safe to enjoy their 1st amendment rights.

Filthy queers, it's just PC run amok!

And so on, and so on,...


Before you cudgel my ass about the anti-Mormon remarks, let me point out that we don't know what happened to the kids who said them. Why wouldn't this story tell us what happened to those kids? Doesn't it seem odd that there's no follow-up on their bigotry? The story would lead you to believe that "officials" are doing nothing about "religion bashing". Is it possible your being manipulated? Maybe? Stranger things have happened.

[NashVegas]

40. Why Would The Parents Have Sued, If The Other Kids Had Been Penalized?

Personally, I wouldn't think so, but that's just me.

I think throwing a lawsuit is going a bit far, as is putting something down in the kid's permanent record. And yes, it is permanent.

[Duncan Grant]

43. I don't believe for a minute that the behavior of the other kids wasn't corrected.

I'm convinced this is just a ridiculous publicity stunt concocted by good RW "religious freedom" folks. Seriously, I'd love to know who the attorneys are in this case. That would tell us everything about what's really motivating this manipulative ton o'crap.

[NashVegas]

47. Hmmm

I did a little digging beyond CNN. Looks like the parents are Eagle Forum nutjobs.
More info:

The non-jury trial began last week in Sonoma County Judge Elaine Rushing's courtroom. In the lawsuit, which names teacher Claudine Gans-Rugebregt, Principal Mark Klick, and Assistant Principal Frances Kass Mason, the Rices said school officials retaliated against Rebekah Rice because of her parents' involvement in protests against a Day of Dialogue held at Maria Carrillo High School in 2000.

Filed in December 2003, the lawsuit seeks an order for the school district to comply with education code regulations it allegedly violated, notification to every parent that the school failed to inform them about the showing of the R-rated film, unspecified monetary damages, and removal of the referral from Rebekah Rice's school record.

....

The Rices maintain students do not typically receive a referral for a first offense and their daughter was being singled out because of her parents' activism.

On Tuesday, Monique Cetard, a freshman at Maria Carrillo, said she heard another student exclaim "that's so gay" in Gans-Rugebregt's classroom and the teacher only admonished the student with a verbal warning.

"She said it's sexual harassment and he would get a referral next time," Cetard testified.

...

Later in the year, Elden Rice called the school again, this time saying an openly lesbian student had threatened his daughter while speaking at an anti-hate crime rally. Students had organized this unofficial walkout, march, and rally in response to anti-racist graffiti that had recently been scrawled on the school walls.

According to testimony Tuesday by school principal Klick, he interviewed one of three students who had told Rebekah Rice about the alleged threat. Rice had been present at the rally but did not, apparently, hear the threat herself.

The student Klick interviewed, a part-time employee of Elden Rice at his dental clinic, told him the rally speaker said she had a black belt in karate and "the girl in my math class who said, 'that's so gay,' I could kick your ass."

But, after interviewing the rally speaker, an honor student with no history of causing trouble in school, Klick said he concluded that there was no real threat of physical danger to Rebekah Rice. Because the Rices were so concerned, however, he said he elected to "shadow" Rebekah, a process by which school administrators and security officers kept continual watch over the girl to protect her.

"Nicky said she didn't remember her exact words, or making a threat to any student on campus," Klick testified.

http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=1581


In this particular case, I do now question whether "that's so gay" truly was just a figure of speech.

I still also question whether the kids who did the initial teasing that sparked this 5 years ago were themselves, chastized; it would be nice if some of the reporters on the story would try to find out.

[Duncan Grant]

49. So maybe it's fair to say there's more here than meets the eye?

I appreciate that you took the time to research it a bit more thoroughly. I hope we find out more... :thumbsup:

[NashVegas]

50. Heeyeah, Just a Little

:hi:

[Lester222]

38. that's so lame

to make a case of that is just plain moronic

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

42. weLcome to DU

your opinion is shared by quite a few here. enjoy.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

44. ...

*bites lip*

[swimboy]

45. I'm not a one-issue guy.

"lame" isn't very nice to use either.

[Duncan Grant]

46. If I thought you understood anything about power and hegemony, I might waste the time to respond.

Hardly seems worth it in this case.

[Nicole]

69. That's so lame?

You're not helping matters.

That is just as insulting to those of us who are physically disabled as "that's so gay" is to those who are GLBT.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guava Jelly]

53. "That is so gay " to me sounds like Gay is a bad thing .

There for it is offensive.
Besides that it isn't even cool or funny to say or even hear.
just imho

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. exactly. what if someone said thats so black to describe something bad?

what would we call such a person?

[Oeditpus Rex]

65. That's actually pretty widespread

Bad guys wear black, a black mark by one's name, black cats are bad luck, etc.

Those have nothing to do with skin color, though, but with age-old superstitions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. "thats so black" referring to black people not the fear of darkness.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. I understand that

But the pervasiveness in society of black = bad has been discussed since long before DU ever existed. I became aware of it in my early teens.

[Zuiderelle]

54. Wow, I keep coming back to this thread and it gets shorter and shorter.

Someone's Gaslighting me. :crazy:

[Oeditpus Rex]

55. It's just your imagination

[Blue-Jay]

62. You're so gay...

You probably think this thread is about you.

/carly

[Zuiderelle]

63. Don't I? Don't I? Don't I?

[Duncan Grant]

66. LMAO!

:spray:

It's how we 'photoshop' a thread... (ibtds-t!) :crazy:

[Zuiderelle]

70. ...

LOL@ibtds-t :rofl:

[Catfight]

56. I 100% support the school. Hate speech is not freedom of speech.

No more than racist remarks or threatening remarks. She can say anything she wants in the privacy of her own house under the roof of her bad parents with pathetic parenting skills. What kind of example are they trying to teach her? Why don't you encourage her to join the Fred Phelps Church and stand out there with "God hates f..gs," sign? The 'F' word needs to be in the same place as the 'N' word IMHO.

[Bluebear]

60. Everytime I return to this thread it gets shorter.

It's magical!

[swimboy]

61. It's the opposite of Pinocchio's nose

The more you tell the truth, the shorter it gets.

[Nicole]

71. Frivolous lawsuit.

She broke the rules and was disciplined for it. How is that grounds for a lawsuit?

[bridgit]

80. the traffic in Santa Rosa is *autrocious*, they need to do something about that...

[Danger Mouse]

87. Ha, when I was younger, I used to say that all the time...

That was then.
I would say this is pretty clearly a double standard.
SOmeone mentioned 'fighting words'
I would consider the '10 moms' taunt as fighting words, I wouldn't have blamed the girl for slugging the person who said that.
Honestly, both sides should've been punished.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

97. thats what i think. they should all be suspended

[Bill McBlueState]

101. both sides may have been punished

The article doesn't actually say what happened to the "10 moms" kids.

[L A Woman]

88. What if it had been the other way around?

What if the girl was being harrassed for being gay and responded with, "Well you're just a Jesus Freak" and was then disciplined for hate speech, while the other girls were let off the hook?

This is a huge flaw in today's "liberal" America. You see in GD every day. It's not that we don't like HATE. We just HATE different groups of people and then rationalize why it's OK to hate those particular groups of people.

The girl should have been admonished, but the kids who were harrassing her in the first place FOR HER RELIGION should have been punished as much, if not more, because she was really just verbally defending herself.

[Zuiderelle]

103. Her parents had been involved in protesting AGAINST an anti-hate crime rally. Check Post #47.

It gives a better perspective on the history of what happened 5 years ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6252449&mesg_id=6253379

I have a feeling everyone was admonished, but the family of this girl decided to make a big stink about how she was treated. Whatever their agenda is, it doesn't look pretty. Seems that they are claiming their daughter was harrassed by a gay speaker at the rally, but it also seems as if she never heard the "threat" made, nor does the speaker (an honor student) recall making it.

Her parents' "opposition to school policies" appears to be opposition to anti-racist and gay-supportive policies. Nice.

"On Tuesday, February 19, Orlean Koehle, president of the California Eagle Forum and a Santa Rosa substitute teacher, said "Elden took the lead and essentially led the charge" when a small group of religiously conservative parents protested the event, especially the inclusion of a presentation on homosexuality."

from http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=1581

[CanuckAmok]

96. This article doesn't confirm the number of moms she has.

The state of "journalism" today, I tell ya...

[Downtown Hound]

107. That's my town!

:toast: