I need advice about a teenager - Please I'm very concerned.

[Dirty Hippie]

Here is the short version (really).

My sister, a single mom, adopted her daughter from China about 8 years ago. Six months later, she very generously stepped up to the plate to foster our niece who was about 7 at the time and could no longer be cared for by her parents (drugs, divorce, alcoholism, etc.).

She married a super guy about 4 years ago. My sister and her husband are loving intelligent, responsible people. Basically, great parents. And my sister was always conscious of treating the girls very equally.

Well, the niece became a teen and all hell broke loose (drugs, alcohol, sex, sneaking out). As the single parent of two adult kids, I told my sister to hang on, maintain the relationship, stand her ground and it would all pass in due time. She would come to her senses.

My own kids went a bit wild but came through it ok.

Well, last night I got a call from sis quite distraught. It seems niece has really gone over the edge. Not just drugs, but bragging about her drinking and weed smoking to the 10 year old daughter. Not just sex but sharing her experiences with the 10 year old.

And worst of all written threats to kill my sister and her husband.

One very disturbing incident - niece spiked my sister's tea with Tylenol PM so she would pass out and niece could sneak out.

My sister, husband and teen have been in counseling for some time so that solution has been tried.

Sister is agonizing over the likelihood that niece will lead daughter astray. I'm agonizing over the fact that niece seems willing to harm my sister.

I advised her to call the cops and press charges for the Tylenol incident.

My questions:

What type of crime would she likely be charged with?

Does anyone have any sage advice they want to share?

Am I correct in feeling that niece's behavior is more than typical teenage stuff and may be pathological?

[Phillycat]

1. Yes, pathological.

She needs to be admitted to an inpatient program and evaluated.

[Arugula Latte]

2. Oh wow. I think you're correct in realizing this is in the out-of-normal range.

I mean, the Tylenol in the tea is very scary. What if she had given a dangerous dosage?

I'm sorry that I don't have any insight or good advice. I'm just sending good thoughts to your family. I'm sure some other DUers will weigh in with words of wisdom.

:hug:

[Zavulon]

3. Good advice regarding the cops.

Spiking a drink with Tylenol PM is assault at a minimum, and if your sister has liver problems and was given acetominophen without her knowledge it could be a lot more than that. The niece's problems are miles past teenage stuff and you should be calling the cops yourself just to hear advice from them if nothing else.

[AllegroRondo]

4. the is very out of normal range

and I agree with janesez that an inpatient evaluation might be needed.

as to what charges could be filed - it could range from simple assault to something involving controlled substances all the way to attempted murder. Yes, giving someone a drug that in the incorrect dosage could kill them is attempted murder. This is very serious, and the girl needs outside intervention and help.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

5. way over the line

In terms of normal teenage rebellion/issues/acting up behavior. Professional care is needed for this family ASAP.

edited for spelling.

[grace0418]

6. It sounds like her first 7 years left her permanently scarred. She needs help,

probably inpatient help. She sounds extremely mentally ill.

Most of all your sister has to protect her younger daughter. She is at a very impressionable age. She must act fast.

It might be difficult to press charges for the tylenol incident if there is no proof and it happened too long ago for any of the drug to be in her system. But it should definitely be addressed when the girl is being evaluated for some kind of psychiatric treatment.

Good luck to all of them. And to you too, I know you must be worried sick.

:hug:

[jobycom]

7. Here's a short answer.

I've got a screwed up family, so all of that sounds normal. I could go into each case, but I won't. I'll just summarize. I was raised with two foster brothers, both of whom were very bad people as teenagers. Drugs, alcohol, sex, statutory rape, attempted murder (one of them)... Name it, they did it. One started straightening out about the time he turned eighten, then had a nervous breakdown and is still an invalid, basically. But he's a good guy. The other got worse, and by the time he ODed a couple of years ago, he had left behind a long list of victims of rape, theft, scams, and I would be surprised if there weren't a few murders in there.

That pattern repeated with other family members (won't go into detail) with some lost cases becoming good people, some turning out very, very bad, and some just being low-grade hustlers who do little harm to anyone not trying to hustle them back. Though one of them, not a relative, was just murdered in a drug deal gone bad.

My point is you can't tell what's going to happen. Teens don't always respond based on concepts of right and wrong, but rather on the concept of whether they feel wronged, and often they respond in measures appropriate to how wronged they feel (not how wronged they really were, if you see what I mean). So my uniformed point there is that your neice's poisoning of your sister may not have been, in her mind, an attempt to be really bad, so much as an attempt to right some wrong she feels your sis did to her (or that life did to her). Or, she could be a sociopath. Or, she could be too young to fully understand the consequences of her actions, only to see the immediate results that she wants. Best case is she outgrows that, worst case she doesn't.

That's just an insight into her, not advice on what to do. Don't let her get away with it, and if possible find a way to separate her influence from the younger sister. I would make two points: One, my parents tried very hard to show this derelict brother of mine that he was loved, that he fit in, that none of their actions against him were an attempt to harm him. He used all of that against us. He raped or tried to rape friends of mine because he felt increasingly invulnerable, as he realized more and more that my parents would do nothing of real consequence to him, aside from yelling, screaming, and grounding (a kid who doesn't obey rules against rape and robbery will not often pay much attention to being grounded). Because of this, I've had to admit, though I wouldn't tell my parents, I've come to see my parents as enablers who made the situation all worse while trying to do what was best for everyone. This brother was a true sociopath, so he would not have turned out good no matter what, but they made it easy for him to hurt people close to us.

So, my point is, don't let the big sister get away with it, and don't leave her in a situation where she can forcefully hurt people.

The second point is about me. I've never tried drugs for any reason, never been drunk, was always way too responsible sexually and emotionally, and am almost fanatical about following laws and not cheating on anything. A big part of that is because of what I saw my brothers doing, but part of it is also that my parents focused on making sure I didn't follow in their footsteps. Not by threats, but be talking to me. They told me what my brothers were doing, and let me see the harm they were causing. This made me want to be the opposite of them. So, concentrate on the younger sister, don't let all of your family energies go to the one lost child to the point of neglecting the younger one (and making her feel that the best way to get attention is to follow in sis's footsteps). Bring her in to the discussion, don't let her feel like an ousider, and don't get in the situation where she feels her crazy sister cares more for her (because she's telling her more of the gritty details) than her caring mother.

That's it, that's my short answer. Make sure the younger sister feels loved, accepted, and part of the group (making the bad sister the outsider), and don't, don't, DON'T become the enabler for the older sister (Obviously advice more for your sister than for you). There will be no easy solutions.

That's my advice, as little of it as I have. It might fit my family more than yours, in which case just ignore it. :) And good luck.

[pitohui]

8. never live with a poisoner is my advice

google what happens to the liver with tylenol poisoning and decide if you want your sister to live one more day with this person in the home -- an overdose could have had serious and painful consequences

did she legally adopt the child? is there any way to get out of this obligation? counseling doesn't change sociopaths

yes, i would call the cops and press charges, but if they adopted this monster, i don't know how much the cops will do

i know someone who tried this spiking of drinks several times on several occasions, one of the people she disliked died mysteriously...at age 24, and while i think everyone knows who was responsible the cops didn't care or investigate, i am now convinced that poisoners have it pretty easy in this society, this world is not the world of "csi"

i'd tell the sister to get rid of the niece by any legal means necessary, unfortunately it's easier said than done

i don't know if it's a coincidence, but the poisoner i know was also adopted, i think it plays on some kid's minds that they were given away, this example i know will never change, she's in her 40s now, still sexually acts out, still uses drugs, still steals and blackmails money, has been in prison for blackmail/extortion but nothing ever changes

someone who drugs someone's drink is beyond the pale, as far as i'm concerned, it's a matter of saving the rest of the family at that point

of course my advice is OBVIOUSLY colored by the extreme experience i've had w. this person

for years i could not get this person out of my life, believe you me, i did not eat or drink anything at this person's hands

[Midlodemocrat]

9. As a mental health professional, that child needs to be evaluated

sooner rather than later. It sounds to me, just from what you have written that she is experiencing a definitive mental health issue that goes way beyond therapy.

Wanting to kill someone is obviously over the top, but you knew that.

I would take her TODAY to be evaluated at an in patient hospital facility and have a psychiatrist examine her. Not a psychologist who cannot prescribe, but a psychiatrist who can.

Unfortunately, that is often the problem with therapy, someone needs meds, but the LCSW or the psychologist can't prescribe them (depending on the state and licesure laws)

PM me if you need additional information.

[Kerrytravelers]

10. As an educator, I'm curious about the school situation.

Has she been diagnosed as SED and is she receiving special services? If not, this has been a major failing by the school. If she is, then there are professionals there who can also offer advice, support and a means of getting additional legal help from the police and health care professionals.

I have experience in SED work. I had the ability to work with the families in regards to getting professionals in the evaluate the situation and to assist in placing the student in appropriate settings, such as inpatient care.

I can't imagine that there are no problems at school. There should be a file that contains all the behaviors and discipline. Between that documentation and the school support and the recommendation from the therapist the family sees, getting additional professional help shouldn't be ladened with too many hoops to jump.

There are people there, ready to help. Your sister can not be afraid of asking for the help.

PM me if you'd like some more specific advice.

Best of luck to your family.

:hug: kt

[dropkickpa]

11. I'd be willing to bet

that your sis and b-i-l have no idea of just what that girl went through before they got her. I would say that it would be a bad idea just to "get rid" of her as some are suggesting, especially since the younger child, who is adopted, may interpret that as "Oh, she's not really theirs, she's bad, they just threw her away". I think some inpatient time is necessary. I do not think that the tylenol/tea thing was an attempted poisoning, and it disturbs me that everyone is pointing to it be as such. Remember, this kid is 14, so I doubt she realized how dangerous that type of thing could be. Were there any issues with this type of behavior prior to puberty? It doesn't sound like there was, which makes me think she may have been sexually abused.

My best friend* was abused as a child, and her teen behavior was VERY similar (especially with the exaggerated sexuality and drug's/alcohol) to your niece's, starting when puberty really hit (about 13). Once she finally started seeing a qualified psychiatrist (not a church counseler, which is what her family had sent her to prior, this is the same place that kept telling her she was commiting a sin by hating her father, who'd abused her for 10 years from 1 year on). The psychiatrist correctly diagnosed depression and had a great deal of experience helping sexually traumatized teens with abandomnent issues (her mother abandoned her 3 different times before her grandmother finally put a stop to it and kept her with her permanantly). She actually was briefly an inpatient before she found this psychiatrist.

It took a while, and she still has some issues with decision-making, but she's come a long way. She's not sure if she'll ever be 100%, but, just the other day, she said to me "I'm starting to finally feel better, I'm thinking a lot clearer than I ever have, I hope this keeps up" due, she thinks, to her first real concerted effort to get as close to all the way better as she can. In the past, she would drop in and out of counselling, going on and off her meds, poor sexual decision making, and barely controlled drinking, her anesthesia of choice. She is always saying, if she'd gotten effective help at a younger age, she wouldn't have wasted so many yearshurting and lashing out. I am glad I stuck by her, because I always saw the real her, the happy, smart, caring one who was hidden the vast majority of the time. Almost everyone in her life pretty much abandoned her when she was hurting the most (as a teen 13-17) because she finally told about the abuse, which only exacerbated the problems she was having, because she was being abandoned yet again. I've stood by her side (and she has stood by mine through some rough shit) and I'm seeing her realize her own potential, and to finally believe that she deserves to be happy and whole. People just saw the "bad seed" and wrote her off, forgetting what she had been like in easier times. I don't think anyone is a throwaway person.

*I spoke with her prior to posting this, she is okay with me sharing her story so long as she is not named

[judaspriestess]

12. She definatley needs help

she is probably angry with her real parents 'abandoning' her. Even though she has a great family who loves her, she doesn't see it, all she sees is them dumping her because they did not 'love her' so now she is acting out for attention because her esteem is in the gutter. Please get her help right away.

[SteppingRazor]

13. At this point, I doubt she'd be charged with anything...

yes, that's assault — and several other crimes — but there's zero evidence for it. If the sister going to get cops involved — which, I should note, often does more harm than good — she should wait until the neice is doing something bad and cal the cops then. Get her on possession or something. But she should be prepared for the consequences. If this girl goes to jail, it's probably not going to do her any good, and could actually be detrimental in the long term.

[leftofthedial]

14. kid needs professional help

[Karenina]

15. IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

19. Thirded

They must not wait another moment.

[Taverner]

16. As much as I hate to say it, Pressing Charges may be a good idea

Pathological Behavior sometimes requires extremes to correct

[Dirty Hippie]

17. Follow-up - I want to thank everyone for the responses.

Sorry for the delay, I took a nap.

I'm going to email this thread to my sister and see if she wants me to PM those of you who have offered.

As for "evidence" there is some. My sister found out about all of this from someone (I don't know who) that the niece was writing letters to. Apparently she has her admission in her own handwriting.

That is also how she found out about her interactions with the younger sister.

My sister has contacted a local teen crisis center and is taking her to a detox facility as I write this. The crisis center would not accept her until she detoxed.

Thanks again.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. I'm really glad to hear this...

I hope the kid sticks with it.
~sending good vibes~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>

[uppityperson]

24. Good, glad to hear this.

Good luck, teen yrs are difficult and there are kids all over the range.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. She needs professional 24/7 help -

time for her to go a rehab/behavior modification place.

[Madspirit]

21. Child is ill

This teen needs help. She is mentally ill. She needs to be evaluated by a psychologist who works with a psychiatrist or some combination like this. In most states, psychologists cannot prescribe. Some states are allowing additional training for psychologists to allow them to prescribe but I'm not even sure if that has been implemented anywhere yet. This girl needs to be in a hospital. This isn't primarily a behavioral problem. This is primarily an illness with accompanying behavior. She needs Big Help. Stat.

...and trust me on this. I know exactly what being a really sick teenager looks like.
Lee

[Mz Pip]

22. Any person

who poses a danger to himself or to another person needs to be evaluated immediately. They need to tell all of this to the local county mental health agency ASAP. Someone there can give your sister reasonable advice on how to proceed.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[idgiehkt]

23. time for juvie

that spiking the tea thing...whoa, they are WAY way past time for serious intervention. Next it could be GHB or worse. Threats to kill them...nope.

I think people forget sometimes that kids live in kind of an adjacent universe to the ones that parents live in where a hell of a lot more goes on than parents know about. If the things she knows about are this serious already I shudder to think what else is going on and what damage has already been done to the adopted daughter. I would not wanna be in this position, but I'm guessing some damage has already been done to the daughter and it might be time to draw the line. Serious physical harm could come to the daughter at the hands of the niece and her 'associates' who sound like the dregs of teenage society. I think the spiking the tea thing is equivalent to assault and she need to be removed from the house and placed in a facility where her serious problems can be dealt with by professionals.