who will it harm? who will it help?

[noiretextatique]

Dear Friends,

As many of you may know, I can tangle with the best of them.
I'm not exactly shy and retiring type...as you will find out if you flame this thread.

However, I must confess: today I feel very sad, and a little angry...but mostly, I feel disappointed.

There was a vile, twisted, and repugant pornographic gang-rape fantasy posted in the illinois rape law thread last night. I hope mentioning this doesn't violate DU rules.
I think it's important that people know about it.

The poster claimed his purpose in posting it was to generate an 'intellectual dialogue,' and that no one should focus to much on the details of his words, or the vile, twisted, repugnant story they told.

This poster forgot to ask himself: who will be helped? and who will be harmed? before he made that post. :think:

I don't always remember to ask myself those questions before I post, but this incident reminds me that I should do so before every post.

In my "Face of Abortion" thread some months ago, I shared that I was raped, and that I had an abortion because of that rape. It's been almost 25 years since that happened: I have long since healed, and I am fine.

Sometimes, however, as with most physical, psychological and emotional trauma, some things may trigger memories. It's been many years since I've thought of the incident in a way that I experience as harmful; a part of healing is not re-experiencing the memory as trauma.

This "story" did trigger a disturbing memory, and even though I only experienced the memory itself for a second, the emotional trauma of that memory is with me as I type this, some 12 hours later.
I am not devastated, but I am disturbed.

There may be women here who were raped last night, or last week or two months ago or a year ago, and so on.
Some of us may have children, sisters, mothers, lovers, and friends who were violently attacked/violated.

For good's sake, I am requesting that everyone here be mindful of your words, and respectful of your fellow DU'ers, and THINK before you post.

I haven't always practiced what I'm preaching now...that's for sure. But do intend to THINK about how my words may harm other people before each and every post.

NO FLAMES PLEASE...If you don't like what I've written...take it up with a psychiatrist.

peace & blessings.

[Duncan Grant]

1. The anonymity of the forums...

can be a dangerous thing.

I think it impairs the good judgement of some and sharpens the tongues of others. :hi:

[Wonder]

2. thoughtful post

empathy is in short order... if one hasn't had the same experience... it does require practiced consciousness of spirit...

[Alenne]

3. kick

[Mandate My Ass]

4. peace back atcha

the Kobe threads were surpisingly a major trigger for me. The same day I tangled in that thread, a rape survivor wrote a memoir on counterpunch.org that mirrored my experience in small but significant ways. You never know what will set you off but that was the first time that just reading others' words and opinions about victim "credibility" resulted in a major setback.

I also have to admit I've not always been as circumspect or respectful of others here as I'd like to have been. That recent experience will no doubt give me pause the next time I'm on the brink of stoking up the flamethrower.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

5. Well said, Noiretblu....

It only takes a moment to consider whether or not a post could be damaging...

[Rowdyboy]

6. I've learned I should never post...

before I've had coffee...I tend to be combative, certainly not my usual style.

Too much liquor? I just get maudlin, which is boring but generally forgiveable...

On a subject like abortion, rape, the death penalty-I can't imagine how anyone could approach it the way you describe. A pornographic gang-rape fantsy would sicken anyone in their right mind.

[proud patriot]

7. peace and blessings for you noiretblu

Love ya :loveya:

[binaryline]

8. i'm so sorry...

i post often on another forum where the mods require certain threads to have the words "potentially triggering" in the subject line. survivors are thus warned ahead of time of triggering discussion...


just a thought.

[noiretextatique]

11. no one could anticipate a gang-rape used as an "example"

frankly, it wasn't just that post...there were many in that thread. i think some people need to remember this is a community composed of a lot of different people, with a lot of different experiences...not a locker room.

i am guilty of the very thing i decry...guilty of being too eager to respond in anger, rather than taking the time to think about what i write, and how it might affect someone else.

i think we all need to practice raising the level of discourse here.

otherwise, i agree with your suggestion.

[binaryline]

12. i didn't see the post you are referencing...

but i saw the replies to it.

i know that people can't anticipate others using gang rape as an "example", but i wish that people could realize how much that kind of language fucks with survivors.

ah, maybe i could have phrased that more eloquently. it's late...

[noiretextatique]

13. yeah, it is late...sorry

you phrased it fine. i'm just a tad testy these days, if you know what i mean. peace, and thanks for sharing your thoughts. i agree 100%. peace.

[binaryline]

14. 'tis cool. peace to you, too n/t

[Lady Freedom]

24. I can understand why...

Flashbacks are no fun! I suffer from them my self. Luckly not from rape, but from another type of horror. So it is not surpriseing that your a bit testy. And for good reason.

[Forkboy]

9. As you may know

I'm not the shy and retiring type either.Sometimes I may get carried away...or not :) Thats for others to decide.I gotta be me...and thank the lord you've gotta be you.I wouldn't want it any other way NB.You're among the best DU has to offer.

As always your words make me think,and I thank you for it.

:loveya:

[REP]

10. Beyond All That

I didn't see the thread you mentioned, and cannot imagine how it could provide anything useful. It doesn't sound as though it was a discussion of the Gang Rape Clubs in Japan, and how the participants are getting more approval than prosecution or a discussion of how in even 'developed' countries like Japan women are seen as less than human. It doesn't seem to have been about anything than someone posting something vile to show edginess or daringness or something.

I have read many of your posts, and I have never seen you post anything disturbing just to post something disturbing.

[noiretextatique]

16. sadly, REP

i really don't think it was meant to be disturbing. what i mean is: i don't think the poster intended to disturb...he *really* thought it would have been an 'interesting' discussion, as he indicated. i find THAT far more disturbing than intentional disruption, if you know what i mean.

as rowdyboy mentioned, any reasonably sane person would have found that post disturbing...not just rape and sexual abuse survivors. no one responded to it, except those who objected to it. apparently, it was far too vile for even some of the people who had been allies of the poster previously...and i think that speaks volumes.

[Wonder]

15. two more potential civil discussion

as the media subjects this kobe case gets underway.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=115374&mesg_id=115374

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=117077&mesg_id=117077

NB another :kick: to your sincerity and bravery!

[noiretextatique]

17. thanks to ALL!!

i processed this entire experience with a loving and supportive friend today, and i am feeling much, much better. good night...and thanks for all the supportive and...and respectful replies :loveya:

[Tinoire]

18. Wow!

First- let me tell you I'm sorry that this happened to you and that that someone's (unintentional I'm sure) comments make you relive this. This is awful and I am sorry (for the both of you because that poster will feel like shit if he sees this but mostly for you).

Second- I agree. And this should apply to all issues on this board. We all need to be more sensitive about our words.

Thank you Noiretblu.

On edit: And I didn't even see the thread. Just the 1 post in question because somebody PMd it to me upset. And that one post was enough for me. I didn't even want to see the discussion because I feared there would be more insensitive posts by other posters!

[noiretextatique]

20. my dear tinoire

i know that you try to live by the words i've posted about not doing harm with words. as i've told you that i find your posts most gracious, even when i know you're pissed. :D

however, i don't think this was unintentional. i don't believe this poster meant to do harm necessarily, in his delusion that gang-rape fantasies are appropriate to share in a discussion about rape laws. or anywhere, for that matter.

but, the post was in violation of the rules of DU, and certainly of common decency. i can't think of any discussion here where that post would NOT have been considered the vile, disgusting, repugnant, twisted, sick, pornographic gang-rape fantasy that it was. if you have any doubt...please read it again, if you can stomach it.

as to his delusion...i *seriously* hope he gets some help. this was NOT the first disturbing post by that individual on the subject of rape, btw. you would think some learning would have taken place the last time he got a vile, disgusting post on the subject deleted :eyes:
self-regulation...that's all i'm asking for. i could care less if someone *enjoys* vile, disgusting, gang-rape fantasies...as long as they have the common sense not to post them here, and especially not in threads about rape, and rape laws. insensitive doesn't even BEGIN to describe someone who would do that...repeatedly.

perhaps on another board with *like-minded* people, his gang-rape fantasy sharing would have been most appropriate.
and...i pray i never run across THAT board.

i am pleased to tell you, there is no danger of that poster reading these words...though i hope he saw the choice ones i left for him in that thread. i didn't intend for those words to do harm...they were simply a statement of fact. peace to you.

[Eloriel]

22. No, it wasn't unintentional at all

{{{{{Noiretblu}}}}}}}

I too didn't see the thread -- thank God. And no it doesn't take a rape survivor to be appalled and even "triggered" (tho in a different way than a rape survivor, no doubt). Noiretblu sent me the original post and I couldn't even read it all -- maybe a third of it. Fortunately, other things going on in my life prevented me from seeing the thread, let alone participating in it.

Thank you for the thread, Noiretblu, and THIS post too. Let no one mistake: this is a sick individual and I'm relieved he has been tombstoned -- that's the least that should happen to him. It wasn't insensitivity on his part to post it, it was depravity. Period. It takes depravity to come up with such a thing and it takes not just poor judgment but depravity to have posted it. I hope he gets help because my fear is that he is, or may become, a rapist himself.

AND let's also point out that such a post is harmful not just to those who have been victims, but to all women. That too seems to be getting overlooked. I participated in a couple of the various Kobe-related threads, but had to stop. The insensitivity, the mythology, the misogynism were all just too much after a while.

I think those of us on the left have an obligation to understand the deeper dynamics of such things as sexism and violence against women, racism, homophobia, etc. And I think it behooves all of us to LISTEN to those who can teach us. We must listen to those who know first-hand about racism and have studied what it is to learn about what racism is. We must listen to those who know first-hand about sexism and have studied what it is to learn about it. We must listen to those who understand the deeper truths about rape and other subjects. But too many of us here do not. It's very discouraging at times. If those of us on the Left do not arm ourselves with knowledge so that we can fight the good fight against these societal scourges, who will? We certainly can't rely on the Right to understand and fight these things. And too many of us have learned that we not only can't reliably trust our brothers and sisters on the Left, but often they're not even willing to be educated on these subjects.

I am very sorry that any of us, but especially rape survivors, had to be exposed to this particular poster's depravity. Too bad that what he wrote was appalling primarily because it fell at the far end of the spectrum of "insensitivity."

Eloriel

[Wonder]

23. unintentional?

ignorant cruel misoynistic and unconscious perhaps! Hardly unintentional. It was after I read through his hypothetical gang rape fantasy, that I understood why he was among the small crew that were so obsessed by the false accusation statistics and in turn worried behind that new law of garnering a false accusation themselves. Those most sociopathic in terms of the subject matter and the boundaries themselves, would tend to harbor more concern about it.

I found myself often wondering if the fear was not of being falsely accused, or instead more it being the fear of being caught, which in my mind would explain the obsessive nature of the mantra - most women lie. As you can see, or at least it seems, the threads that were up to perhaps consider the possibility that the accuser could be telling the truth, along with the threads that might prompt more thoughtful debate and discussion have hardly caught on.

Most popular is the discussion about the 2% of false accusation that may get through and those devious lying woman, than the discussion of rape, the rape victim and the legal process in terms of conviction. Apathy takes hold once more. It is nice to know that those that I would classify as the low life predators are so easy to spot. That small crew shares a very similar pattern and choice of words. The actually telegraph their utter disgust with woman and their own lack of ease with sex itself.

[Booberdawg]

19. No flames here

I was following that thread and posted in it. Although I didn't see the offending message, I saw the responses and realized it was pretty outrageous and tasteless. I also noticed the offender was tombstoned for his trouble, if that's any consolation.

What was so troubling was that it wasn't some newcomer or a freeper looking to cause trouble. He had over 1000 posts but had otherwise been an antagonist in parts of the almost 500 post thread. Even if there were no rape survivors participating in the thread, the suggestion that a gang rape actually fulfills some kind of unconcious fantasy women have belongs in some pervert site, not in a discussion about women having the right to say no or change their mind. I don't think you have to be a rape victim to find that appalling.

I thought you stood your ground pretty well. I'm glad the mods shut it down temporarily though, because ...., well just because. A break was in order.

Linda:hi:

[Darranar]

21. Great Post

"Who will be helped? And who will be harmed?" is a great question to ask before taking an action.

Thanks for posting this, noiretblu.

Peace.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. AS you realize most of DU now thinks I am a rape survivor

with issues.

Not the case at all. I have never been raped. The reason I go respond on those threads is because of the threads in old DU where women shared their experiences.

I remembered several women leaving DU over the misogyny. I remembered a rape survivor posting that the threads triggered an incident for her and actually made her ill.

Every time the subject comes up, an obviously biased study that does NOT match any credible studies on the issue is used to discredit.

I am the one who responded to that post with graphic anger. I didn't do so because I was in any incident and I wasn't stuck in any issue.

I did so because I will not bargain with a sick mind.

I'm not sorry but if the women of DU who have been raped were to request of me to alter my responses, I gladly would.

I respond because the ignorance espoused deserves to be forcefully combatted.

You know...kind of like it benefits no one to bargain with terrorists. ;-)

[Lady Freedom]

26. I would have too...

If I saw it. I have never been raped, But the issue does make me see red. Not only that I would have PM this guy and chewed on him some more. People please think! And I'll try and do the same.

[Wonder]

28. NSMA I knew that

You had made an earlier post in another thread I think you were talking to true american or chango you said you weren't a rape survivor.

as far as I am concerned you do not have to alter not a bit of what you say. you are informed and it is too painful for some of the survivors to counter it. The risk is run where in a reflexive emotional response will kick in. People don't realize the PTSyndrome here. What may seem the most insignificant occurance can trigger a set back.

I did it several times misunderstood what someone said and jumped in very edgily. When I have done that I generally apologize. Not being a survivor your self you don't run that risk.

Would be nice more guys would jump in as you do, but until that day arrives. those that do understand the issues at play here should speak out when they can.

I was surprised to see so many actual survivors in the threads. Those in control of their history are authorities in their own right, like hello i have been through the system... police do not go running out on someones word... in fact at first it is touch and go...

as I have said more than once ad nauseum... if the rapist had not been so arrogant, or hadn't gotten away with raping as long as he had, he would not have called again... and I would not have been able to get the conversation on tape... if not for the audio tape... they would not have pursued the case.

you are performing a service. Interesting now how few seem interested when a post is placed wherein it is as plausible to entertain the innocence of this victim. Kobe lied outright at the beginning did not give it up till the DNA came in. I wasn't following the case. Would have not even known that based on these threads so far. All so concerned with the victims suicide and depression and poor Kobe's reputation... blah blah blah...

Just his press conference... body language some of the still photos of his wife... tell a whole story... and that is what jurors observe...

believability factors big... this man could hardly get his words out... of course you know we all project things we may not know we project but it is as plausible if not more so that the accuser as people like to call her now is telling the truth...

anyway

:thumbsup:

[noiretextatique]

30. only the terminally ignorant think that

which i why i always use my own life...it's an attempt to *personalize* the issue. you know, i've sent a lot of time in the lounge reading personal posts of several members here...from the whimsical posts about chasing bats around the house, to the the more serious and painful stories about personal tragedies.

this helps me put a face on the people here, which in turn helps me to know the folks here as more than anonymous internet posters. when people know each other, they are less likely to be as vicious and uncaring with their words, in that anonymous manner common to internet discussion boards. this is one of the things i love about this site...it's personal side.

certainly as this place has grown, it has become less personal, but i think *personalizing* an issue is a great way to open a discussion about more than just the person, or any issue specific to the person or to a group of people. for example, i know of a few MEN here who are survivors of sexual abuse.

my point here, is not paint all women or myself as a victim. the point is to ask people to fucking think before they post. sam sarrha wrote in that thread: "see all beings as your mother." the point of this post is SELF-REGULATION.

i felt the need to post this for several reasons...and as in my "face...thread," it has an educational component. people do actually experience post-traumatic stress. and i am really sick of any thread with the word "rape" being used as a free-for-all for misogynistic BULLSHIT. another point of this post.

i should hope that even the former poster would have the good sense not to post that garbage if his mother or his sister might have seen it. and i tell you, i know would have been even more pissed if someone who knows me, as a person, would post something like that.

that all normal people with a shread of common decency would have been sickened by that post should have been a NO BRAINER. that posting ridiculous stereotypes about what "all women" do should be a NO BRAINER. that fear about potential false accusation is not an excuse to take an adversarial, paranoid anti position about rape or rape victims or women in general...this should be a NO BRAINER also. it shouldn't take a PhD in women' studies to figure this out, nor is the experience of having been raped a prerequisite. any idiot who thinks THAT is past the point of reaching through discussion.

however, since women do frequent this board, and since rape is far too common an experience in this culture, my other point was that there ARE in fact rape and sexual abuse victims and survivors here, and some may not have had the experience 25 years ago...it might have been 25 days ago...or 25 hours ago. i think those women would be experience a lot more than a few hours of discomfort, as i did. that is another point of this post...people here my in fact have issues, and still be in the process of dealing with them.

there is, and should not be, any shame in that..and no one should be made to feel that it is shameful. what is shameful is acting with intention to harm...strangely similar to the crime in question, no? indeed, it is.

i subscrbe to the "whatever it takes" school of thought. and frankly, i am sick of the free-for-all and suspension of rational discourse and common decency and empathy whenever the word "rape" is mentioned here. i am fucking sick of the idea that anyone should have to deal with this because some people see no need to regulate themselves particularly when it comes to certain topics

i think this is very appropropriate to the discussion of sexism, and other isms in general. as eloriel points out, if you don't value a person's experience...then how can you ever learn from her? and if you don't value a person, how on earth is any real discourse possible?

sometimes, my dear...extraordinary realities require extraordinary measures. and to paraphase the occupant: "who care what THEY think?"

peace.

[Clete]

27. I didn't read the thread you speak of

because as a rule I avoid the ones baiting salacious responses as being counterproductive.

But your point is something that all posters should take to heart.

Thanks for the reminder.

[ForrestGump]

29. Bad news

I didn't see the thread, don't know who was involved, but I think that there's a case to be made here for zero tolerance of the sort of thing that this poster sounded like he was perpetrating. As far as I know, relatively few men are raped, so it's a fairly safe bet that most of us can have no full appreciation of how it feels and what it does. Not truly, anyway - the best we can do is empathize, and fill in the gaps with extrapolation, and that alone paints me a bad enough picture.

If he was trying to make a point about spurious accusation, it sounds like he failed miserably and succeeded only in going off on a tangent that was as hurtful as it was pointless. Sure, some men are falsely accused (or are perhaps stuck in an ambiguity, such as an alcohol-fueled night of passion that isn't), but the statistics on rape are horrific and I think they demand a certain amount of sensitivity on the part of the sex that's collectively inflicting this horror. I used to get really furious at the radical-feminist phrase "all men are rapists" that seemed to echo about my campus, because it's a hateful lie, but it's arguably closer to the truth than are the protestations of those who seek to minimize rape as being merely a failure to communicate or somehow 'deserved.'

I know many women, and have 'intimately' known some, who have been raped. I mean, they're the victims that I know about, as revealed in their own words. In reality, if those statistics that I see are anywhere even near the truth, it's possible that many - maybe even most? - of the women that I know have been raped. That thought makes me want to cry. And kill, too, in blind fury over the lives that some men have vandalized the heart of....or tried, to, at least. Sick f***ers.

And what almost makes it worse is that, whoever this tombsoned DUer was, he was probably a 'progressive' and perhaps less likely to actually perpetrate this crime than his thoughtless words would indicate. Well, I hope so, anyway, but I suspect that the sickness (it's not really lust, is it......or, at least, not inevitably) crosses all bounds of political philosophy or intellectualism. Look at those rape statisitics again and - though I hate and deeply resent the destructive blanket accusation - yes, all men are potential rapists, as least if you're a woman. Men don't have to live in that perpetual fear, at least not in our society, but I'm reminded of it every time I am walking in a secluded area and sense the wariness and even fear of a female who is walking, solo, in the opposite direction. She has to assume that I am a monster - she has no other adaptive choice when it comes to her own survival.

[buddhamama]

31. thank you, noiretblu

for this post and past posts on this subject.

i am so very sorry for what you have experienced but i thank you for sharing with us.

i generally avoid threads that relate to rape/sexual abuse.
i'm too emotional on the subject and that isn't fair to the innocent 'bystanders'.
there are also bad for my mental health. too be honest, if i had known what this thread was about, i most likely would not have opened it.
i'm still dealing with my past. and although it is the past, it took me many years to face it,which is why,for me,it is very raw.

the insecurity,fear,nightmares come often enough on their own without the subject being mentioned.(i didn't read the thread you are refering to,btw)

the sentiments on this subject that are expressed here sometimes...
outide my anger response, make me sad.

i will do my best from now on to think before posting.

peace and bless you,noiretblu

[NYC]

32. Eloquently stated.

Thank you. Your value to DU is immeasurable. Truly.

[cally]

33. I'm not sure I'm glad or sad that I missed that thread

Sad that I couldn't voice my anger at such insensitivity and misogyny. Very sad that I couldn't offer my support to all the rape survivors and that gang rape or any rape is not a fantasy but a brutal assault.

Glad because I get so angry and dismayed that supposedly informed folks can be so ignorant and hateful. I guess I'm curious so if someone wants to PM the link or let me know who started it, I would appreciate it.

Karen, I so appreciate your voice, your outspokenness, and your spirit. So many times, I go to a thread and see your responses and think you speak for me, also. Thanks.

[Karenina]

34. Thank you for this thread

I simply COULD NOT read the post in question. I knew immediately it was just too sick for my sensitive stomach. The 2 questions you pose are the basis for our survival as a community. How often do people use the excuse "Well, I just wanted to tell the "truth" as an excuse or weapon to slice and dice their fellow human beings, regardless of the objectivity of that "truth?" We are 30,000 strong now and a herd of cats. May we, who are devoted to this place for our sustenance, consider
these 2 simple questions in our daily visits.