German couple in incest row

[u4ic]

Couple stand by forbidden love


At their home in Leipzig, Patrick Stuebing and Susan Karolewski are in the kitchen, playing with a young toddler.
They share a small flat in an east German tower block on the outskirts of the city. It looks like an ordinary family scene, but Patrick is Susan's brother and they are lovers.

"Many people see it as a crime, but we've done nothing wrong," said Patrick, an unemployed locksmith.

"We are like normal lovers. We want to have a family. Our whole family broke apart when we were younger, and after that happened, Susan and I were brought closer together," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6424937.stm

[Shine]

1. I heard about this a few days ago.

apparently, for what it's worth, they didn't meet for the first time until they were both teenagers.

Still, it just makes me feel icky, b/c I've got a boy and girl and the thought of them being romantically involved is sickening. Ewwwww....

Two of the three kids they've already had have serious developmental problems, too. Sad.

:hi: u4ic! :hug:

[billyskank]

2. Psychologists have observed it before

in other cases of blood relatives who are separated at birth and meet for the first time later when both are adults. The relationship bonding they experience sometimes manifests as sexual attraction.

[Shine]

3. Interesting. That makes sense, in a way.

Yeah, I suspect it's a whole different vibe when they meet later in life...as opposed to growing up with each other since infancy and experiencing all the day-to-day crap together that comes with early childhood.

[u4ic]

5. I think they were in their early 20's

I've heard quite a bit about it the past few days as well.


Hi, Shine! Happy International Women's Day! :hug: :loveya:

edit: he was, she was still a teen

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms_Dem_Meanor]

4. .

:puke:

[951-Riverside]

10. Removed n/t

[ironflange]

6. Congratulations!

It's not easy to beat matcom to stories like this.

[Scarlett17]

7. Anyone else doing the math here?

She's 22, he's 30. They've been living together for six years and have had four children in that time. He was 24 when this started and she was only 16. What's the age of consent in Germany? The article says that they didn't fall in love until after their mother died. So, you've got a 16 year old girl, long-lost 24 year old brother shows up, mom dies, brother and sister suddenly in love and begin having babies. Obviously this girl was in turmoil. Counseling. Therapy. Hello?

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

8. age of consent is 14

With parental permission and 16 without. They have 4 kids. 2 of the kids have "birth defects" and 3 of the 4 kids have been removed from the home. The lawyer argues that society isn't being effected by incest. I'd say the 2 kids with birth defects were.

[hedgehog]

22. It's possible the "birth defects" could have more to do with

pre-natal care or lack thereof than with genes. If she was drinking, it could have caused fetal alcohol syndrom, for example.

[sammythecat]

11. At first I thought "incest row" was an actual place

Like Cannery Row. I know the Germans are supposed to be hard core, but...wow, they actually have a section of town for incest!

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

12. What are you on about?

[sammythecat]

19. I don't really understand your question

Red light district. That sort of thing. Sometimes the word "row" is used instead of district or area.

For a second I thought incest row = special area of town just for incest. Just sharing a momentary weird thought is all. :p

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

20. it's all good

:beer:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Incest row...

Yeah, that's over in the BM Sex District.

:rofl:

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

14. I must be missing something.

I live in Germany and I can look off my back balcony and see a whore house and I have no idea what you two are on about.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. There's a running gag...

that Germans enjoy their kinky sex as thoroughly and effeciently as they engineer their automobiles.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

16. ha ha

IBM is right down the street from this particular whore house. BMW is pretty isolated in those terms.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. I meant "BM sex" as in...

Oh, nevermind.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

18. ok

[petronius]

23. That was my first thought, too

GMTA! :hi:

[xchrom]

21. i'm closed minded about this --

:puke:

[Guava Jelly]

24. Thems ma kin folk!

Weeze a klose famlee.
:hi:

[Shine]

26. LOL!

:rofl: :spank:

[Schema Thing]

25. I always try to stay out of incest row

no matter what city I'm visiting.

[Shell Beau]

27. A gal in my college sorority was dating her 1st cousin. They

never knew they were even related. Their parents knew but thought it would pass as teenage stuff. She got pregnant and dropped out of the sorority and they got married. Before they married, their parents finally told them. It didn't change their feelings, I guess since they are still together. But, I always felt for them. The parents should have informed them from the get go. Apparently, their family wasn't close.

I don't know if I could get over my parents willingly letting me date one of their nephews. It is beyond creepy to me!

[Xithras]

28. That's an American thing.

Statistically, 1st cousins are only slightly more likely than perfect strangers to have a kid with birth defects. In many parts of the world, it's perfectly acceptable to marry your cousin (it's quite common in some parts of Mexico today, as well as in much of Asia).

Incest really only presents a problem with 1st generation direct relations. Father/daughter, brother/sister, mother/son, etc. The odds of birth defects in these types of relationships is 1 in 2. If you split the parents up and make them half-siblings (only sharing one parent) it drops to 1 in 4.

Cousins, on the other hand, are somewhere around 1 in 15. That may sound high, but remember that the odds of random birth defects from ANY couple concieving naturally is 1 in 18 to 1 in 20, and the results in birth defects for women using IVF can be as high as 1 in 10. Statistically, IVF is more dangerous than cousins marrying.

[Shell Beau]

29. That isn't my point really though! I would have hated for them

to have had a child with birth defects because of that, but it was the being kept a secret part that I had a problem with.


And personally, the way I feel about my first cousins (or any cousins really) is almost the way I feel for my brothers. Maybe I am extra close to my family, but it is icky to me. I can't help but feel that way. My family is extremely close and I see even my 3rd cousins quite often and was raised knowing that we were family. :shrug: I am not here to judge people, these are MY feelings.

[qwertyMike]

30. If you are a Christian

Doesn't the Adam/Eve, Cain and Abel story imply a bit of incest somewhere?

Just sayin'

[Shell Beau]

31. How so?

Not sayin' it can't be so, just want you to explain further.

[Dave Reynolds]

32. If I may answer here:

I think it refers to the fact that there were Adam and Eve. They had two sons.

Where did Cain and Abel find women? There was only one at that time.

[Shell Beau]

33. I thought that is where that would go!

And I see what you mean. I would go into what I personally believe, but I will keep that personal. Just know that I a Christian (not a BLIND Christian).

[Dave Reynolds]

34. I mean no disrespect.

It's just a question I have pondered.

[Shell Beau]

36. I think we all have! I know you meant no disrespect.

But, if you aren't Christian (not saying you are or are not), then anything I say to describe what I think happened or what it means will be considered evangelical or something similar! And I don't mean you personally. I mean a lot of people who would love to jump on that!


:)

[Dave Reynolds]

37. Well yeah, I know what you mean.

This forum is not the best place for respectful discussions about religion. I myself am an athiest, but I refuse to belittle or ridicule anyone's faith.

[Shell Beau]

38. Thankyou! And I likewise also refuse to belittle anyone

for their beliefs!

We all believe what we do! I would probably never in a million years change your mind and vice versa! We can agree that we are all human beings, and until further notice, deserve each others respect! :)

[hedgehog]

35. Read past the first few pages in Genesis.

Somehow or another, other people start turning up. I have no idea who the giants are that are also mentioned as turning up.