Who is your team's all-time franchise player?

[Arkham House]

...boy--this gets us into some controversy... Some are easy--Ruth for the Yanks, Cobb for Detroit... Some aren't. You could write whole books discussing the conceptual hassles this question involves, a task I'll skip, thanks. Here are my picks for each team:
Braves--Hank Aaron
Cubs--Sammy Sosa
Phillies--Mike Schmidt
Pirates--Honus Wagner
Cardinals--Stan Musial
Mets--Tom Seaver
Brewers--Robin Yount
Reds--Frank Robinson
Astros--Jeff Bagwell
Rockies--Larry Walker
Diamondbacks--Randy Johnson
Padres--Tony Gwynn
Dodgers--Jackie Robinson
Giants--Barry Bonds
Marlins--Dontrelle Willis
Red Sox--Ted Williams
Yankees--Babe Ruth
Orioles--Eddie Murray
Blue Jays--Carlos Delgado
Devil Rays--who the fuck cares
Tigers--Ty Cobb
Indians--Bob Feller
White Sox--Frank Thomas
Royals--George Brett
Rangers--Ivan Rodruguez
Twins/Senators--Walter Johnson
Angels--Vladimir Guerrero
Athletics--Lefty Grove
Mariners--Junior Griffey
Expos/Nationsla--Gary Carter


Waiting for the brickbats...:hide: what are your choices...?

[fizzgig]

1. i only have a few to add

broncos: john elway
avs: can't decide between joe sakic or peter forsberg

[blockhead]

2. Ernie Banks IS Mr. Cub. nt

[KG]

10. true dat - 'let's play two!'

[dysfunctional press]

44. exactly. sammy sosa wouldn't even make the starting line-up of all-time cub greats.

nt

[XNASA]

70. Amen to that.

Let's play 2!!!!

[mark414]

3. brett favre

it's a pretty easy decision to make

[Yavin4]

22. Over Bart Starr????

Hmmm. I dunno.

[ScreamingMeemie]

29. No way, no how...much as I love him.

Bart Starr will always be the face of the Packers. :hi:

[KG]

4. redskins: Sonny Jurgensen

[taterguy]

19. I agree

[smtpgirl]

37. Sonny Jurgensen, Joe Theismann, Darryl Green

Lisa Leslie, Sue Bird, Lauren Jackson, Nykesa Sales

[AngryAmish]

5. Hack Wilson was the best Cub

[reyd reid reed]

63. I just found

a youtube video of the 1929 World Series at Wrigley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U63LW6wV3no

[smitty]

6. Some disagreement:

Giants: Willie Mays
Dodgers: Sandy Koufax

Good pick for the Athletics, lots of people would overlook Lefty.

[cboy4]

7. S.F. 49ers

Joe Montana/Jerry Rice

Golden State Warriors: Rick Barry


I disagree with a portion of your baseball list.


Giants: Willie Mays

Reds: Pete Rose

Orioles: Cal Ripken Jr.

A's: Reggie Jackson

Cubs: Ernie Johnson

Angels: Nolan Ryan (Guerrero??? They just got him)

Astros: Craig Biggio

Blue Jays: Joe Carter

Twins: Kirby Puckett

Pirates: Willie Stargell

[Richardo]

8. I'd have to insist on Roberto Clemente for the Pirates

:)

[Richardo]

9. ...and I'd substitute Nolan Ryan for Pudge on the Rangers

He's got to go SOMEWHERE. Mets, Rangers, Astros or Angels

[ScreamingMeemie]

33. Agreed on that. I was tying to think of someone and Nolan is a good

choice. Pudge has been too willing and happy to move to other teams.

[jobycom]

46. You and most Rangers fans. Pudge isn't a bad pick, he's just not Ryan.

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. I won't take anything away from Clemente

He's up there with Mays as one of the most complete ballplayers ever. But Hans Wagner was an absolute monster.

[BulletproofLandshark]

11. I'd choose Rod Carew over Vlad Guerrero

[Richardo]

12. Me, too

But: Twins or Angels?

[WeRQ4U]

15. Harmon's a good choice for the Twins...

Rod would be Angels.

[qwertyMike]

13. Rod Carew

Hockey:
Gretzky
Howe
Crosby

[Reverend_Smitty]

14. I agree about Seaver...

the only other person who you could make a case for it would be Mike Piazza but even he would fall short to Tom Terrific on a head to head comparison of all time Mets great.

I may as well throw my football pick in here...NY Giants: Lawrence Taylor

[Mojambo]

16. I know most people identify Griffey as Seattle's guy

But honestly I'd put Edgar Martinez over him.

[SKKY]

17. Rafael Gordillo...

...He's the obvious choice for any Real Betis Fan, or "Beticos" as we're called..

Let's do college...

University of Kentucky Basketball - Kyle Macy

Univeristy of Louisville Basketball - Daryl Griffith

University of Kentucky Football - Tim Couch (Sadly enough)

University of Louisville Football - Johnny Unitas

[swag]

18. Mine

Heartless Heaters - Vominatrix (l)
Guns 'n' Rollers - November Pain (r)


Breakneck Betties - Vivienne Hell


High Rollers - Broadside Bay (there on the left, now retired)

[Arkham House]

20. Reasoning...

...for some of my picks. Cubs. Ernie Banks, or Sammy? Or even Hack Wilson? (Or, for that matter, Cap Anson?)... Banks won two MVPs, was a decent shortstop, and a great player in a lesser-offense era than the 90s. But cripes--Sammy had *three* 60+ homer seasons...I just can't overlook that. And he had more of those peak years than Hack Wilson did... Angels? Vlad might not have been there that long, but he's a dominant player, sort of the Dimaggio of our time...has won an MVP there...and to me ranks well above Nolan Ryan, who was sensational, but not *that* great...in fact, my #2 guy on the Angels would probably be Jim Fregosi. Dodgers? I can see why one would name Sandy...but I feel that Jackie was the greatest second baseman ever, in his best seasons...he had a short career, but so did Sandy, and he got a late start because of Jim Crow and the war. Jackie was a tremendous player, the heart of probably the greatest line-up ever assembled. And Sandy was greatly helped by his era--the 60s--and the park, Chavez Ravine...still--I couldn't argue against him too much... As for Mays/Bonds--or anyone else, like Mathewson or Hubbell or Ott--well, Barry Bonds from 2001-2004 was the most dominant player in the history of baseball, including Babe Ruth. And whatever he may or may not have done to "enhance" that performance--the fact remains, those seasons are in the books, the records are there, and he did more than anyone else, ever, to win games for his team. Including Willie, alas...:-(...I don't like naming Bonds #1--but he is...

[Oeditpus Rex]

23. Including Willie?

Dude, you know I respect you as a baseball fan, but that's way off. Bonds doesn't have near the weaponry Mays did. Bonds hits the long ball and draws walks. Mays was the prototypical "five tools" player; with the exception of hitting for high average (by which I mean he was no Rod Carew — .302 lifetime ain't nothin' to sneeze at), he did everything exceptionally well. Even when he wasn't hitting, he was likely to beat you with a catch or a throw.

If Mays had hit in the .320-.330 class throughout his career, I don't think there'd be much argument that he was the best ballplayer ever. As it is, it's still a pretty good case.

For the Dodgers, I'd say it's a toss-up between Koufax, Duke Snider and Gil Hodges. Without Koufax, the Dodgers aren't even competitors in the '60s, much less winning three pennants and two world championships. But you could say the same about Snider and Hodges in the '50s, only slightly diminished because Brooklyn was the best ball club in the National League after WWII.

[Arkham House]

26. I hate to put Bonds over Willie...

...I was the biggest Mays fan alive in the 60s...but first, all five tools aren't necessarily the same. Power and on-base are considerably more important that, say, a throwing arm...and Bonds was a pretty good five-tools player himself, though more when he was younger than in the dominant 2001-04 era...and the numbers are just *too* great. OPS averages of 1.300...an *.867* slugging...there's just *too much* dominance there. Even if the worst suspicions of him are true--why didn't any *other* player in the juice era improve like he did? And in his *late thirties*? The fact is, there is something unexplained about Bonds and his late-career performance, no matter what the truth is...something strange. I dislike him as much as anyone, believe me...but he's the greatest player I've ever seen...

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. I'd disagree to a point

about SlOPS being the most important of the tools, but that's probably just a difference in the type of baseball we prefer. I love a ball club that hits and runs and relies on defense — typical of a Dodgers fan from the mid-'60s, I guess.

I started out to say an arm and a glove are as important as a big bat because they change what a ball club can do in certain situations. You got a Mays or a Clemente or a Reggie Smith in the outfield, you save a dozen runs a year — not just because they're throwing out guys taking the extra base, but because more often than that other clubs don't run on you in the first place. But then I thought, having a guy who's likely to park one in the seats anytime he comes up forces the defense to make a lot of adjustments, too — even if the guy's not in the lineup; just having him on the bench and ready to pinch-hit makes the other manager look into your dugout, trying to stay a jump ahead of you.

Today during the Giants-Cubs game, Lon Simmons was in the booth and he was talking about a day against the Dodgers when Mays threw out guys at first, third and home. (He got Drysdale taking too big a turn after a single.) And I thought, if it were anybody but Mays, or maybe Clemente or Smith, it would've been a huge deal. But with Mays, you just sort of accepted it, like you accepted him making a catch that almost nobody else could make. I've been at Candlestick when he did something practically inhuman, and he got big cheers but not like most guys would get for the same play. Mays did the unbelievable so often that it became like his trademark.

Funny thing, too — when I was a kid, I hated Mays, because he tore up the Dodgers pretty often (I think he had more homers off Drysdale than almost any other pitcher he faced) and because as a Dodgers fan in Giants country, I constantly heard Simmons and Russ Hodges talk about him as if he were Jesus Christ with a glove and a jockstrap. But after he'd been retired for awhile, I got over it and became a big fan of him.

[Arkham House]

66. I'm glad you mentioned Reggie Smith...

...because he's one of the most underrated players ever. I'd take him over the other Reggie any day...the Big Red Machine of 75-76, maybe the most awesome eight-man lineup ever, was brought down by the Dodgers in 77-78--and that was largely because of Reggie Smith, having his two best seasons...there are many Hall-of-Famers who weren't anywhere near as good as Reggie...(What the hell--I'll name a few...Chick Hafey, Ross Youngs, Lloyd Waner, Kiki Cuyler, Earle Combs, Enos Slaughter, Max Carey, Harry Hooper...mostly guys from his high-offense Twenties and Thirties...)

[Oeditpus Rex]

69. He's the one I was thinking of

when I was talking about guys not running. I've seen fast guys turn second and stop on a single to right out of respect for his arm. And I've seen him throw strikes to third on deep hits. Dude had a fucking Howitzer, man.

And, despite his threatening demeanor, he was a nice guy. When Billy Crystal set out to make "61*," Thomas Jane, the actor who played Mantle, had never touched a bat, so he sent him to Smith for instruction. There's video of it on the "extras" disc, and Smith is a sweetheart. And Jane had Mantle's swing down cold.

[momophile]

21. Todd Helton instead

he's been on the team longer than Walker was, he has only ever been with the Rockies, and he has always seemed to have much more enthusiasm about playing in CO than Walker ever had (okay, that one is purely my opinion).

[trof]

25. VAN LINGLE MUNGO-Brooklyn Dodgers, aka "Da Bums".

Van Lingle Mungo by David Frishberg

The crooning voice of David Frishberg, the use of player's names as lyrics, and the soft sounds of a nostalgic bossa nova ballad make up the classic known only as the Van Lingle Mungo.

The lyrics:

HEENEY MAJESKI
JOHNNY GEE
EDDIE JOOST
JOHNNY PESKY
THORNTON LEE
DANNY GARDELLA
VAN LINGLE MUNGO

WHITEY KUROWSKI
MAX LANIER
EDDIE WAITKUS
JOHNNY VANDER MEER
BOB ESTALELLA
VAN LINGLE MUNGO

AUGIE BERGAMO
SIGMUND JAKUCKI
BIG JOHNNY MIZE
and
BARNEY MCCOSKY
HAL TROSKY
AUGIE GALAN
and
PINKY MAY
STAN HACK
and
FRENCHY BORDAGARAY
PHIL CAVARRETTA
GEORGE MCQUINN
HOWARD POLLET
and
EARLY WYNN
ROY CAMPANELLA
VAN LINGLE MUNGO

AUGIE BERGAMO
SIGMUND JAKUCKI
BIG JOHNNY MIZE
and
BARNEY MCCOSKY
HAL TROSKY
JOHN ANTONELLI
FERRIS FAIN
FRANKIE CROSETTI
JOHNNY SAIN
HARRY BRECHEEN
and
LOU BOUDREAU
FRANKIE GUSTINE
and
CLAUDE PASSEAU
EDDIE BASINSKI
ERNIE LOMBARDI
HUEY MULCAHY
VAN LINGLE

VAN LINGLE MUNGO

[Burma Jones]

27. I would say Cal Ripken, Brooks Robinson or Jim Palmer before Eddie Murray

for the Orioles....

[trackfan]

28. From a societal standpoint Jackie Robinson may be the choice, but

for on-the-field franchise-player heroism for the Dodgers, it's gotta be Koufax.

[ScreamingMeemie]

30. Tigers--Al Kaline

Still a part of the organization

[Scout]

64. my vote is for Al Kaline, also

what a class act Al is. I got his autograph at about 12 years old--I was nearly speechless, could barely choke out "Thank you Mr. Kaline."

I think he had a longer playing career than did Cobb ... plus, he wasn't a jerk like Cobb!

[Strawman]

71. After 1950 for sure

Personally, I can't appreciate Ty Cobb or what he did so much myself, but objectively as a baseball player (setting jerkiness aside), if it has to be "all-time," he is probably the best Tiger ever. He had over 4000 hits and more importantly he was the predominant star of his era. I don't know if there is another Tiger you can say the latter about.

Kaline would be next and maybe Hank Greenberg belongs in that conversation too. At least with Kaline (who retired when I was 3, I think), I know him as a broadcaster and part of the organization. I've seen decent video of him playing and heard my dad and other older relatives rave about him. Ty Cobb is just too much like ancient history to me, as is Hank Greenberg. It's hard to have a feel for the game in those earlier eras. It was different. When Cobb played people won the home run title with like 9 home runs.

In my lifetime as a fan, it's tough because I always think of the best Tigers from as parts of teams rather than individual superstars. If I pick Trammell, I think of Whitaker. Jack Morris might be the biggest individual standout player I can actually remember playing for the Tigers.

[trof]

31. No Van Lingle Mundo fans here, hunh?

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. I don't think Ivan Rodriguez with the Rangers is right either. Or Frank

Thomas for the Sox. Pudge wants to retire with Detroit. When I think of "franchise player" I think Gordie Howe/Red Wings or Bart Starr/Packers. A whole career type thing. I don't know who I'd replace Pudge with though. :hi:

Edited because something came out wrong.

[ellisonz]

34. Jackie Robinson and Sandy Koufax.

[rockymountaindem]

35. John Elway and Ted Williams n/t

[u4ic]

36. The Edmonton Oilers...

hmmmmm....

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

39. This half-a#^&$ed Hockey fan wants to know:

   ... didn't Gretzky play in Edmonton before moving to Los Angeles?
   Oh wait... the Oilers are CFL, right?
   the Eskimos are the NHL team...
   ... or do I have 'em reversed?
   {now I am confused... help me, u4ic, please!}

[u4ic]

40. Oilers are NHL

Eskies are CFL, and yes, Gretzky was here before being traded to LA. :hi:

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

45. Thank you, love...

   
I thought I had it right, but confirmation is good. :*

[u4ic]

50. You're very welcome!

:*

[DarkmoonIkonoklast]

38. Can't really argue this list... however...

   ... I remember watching Pee Wee and the Duke battle Willie at Ebbets Field, so a few suggested amanedments:

  Cubs: Sosa? Nah! Ernie "Let's play TWO!" Banks is Mister Cub!!!

  Orioles: I have the utmost rspect for Murray, but c'mon! Cal Ripkin Jr. WAS baseball for his entire career!

  Dodgers: OK, sure Jackie Robinson for historic significance, but it's GOTTA be the Duke, Mr Snider!

  Giants: Steroids notwithstanding, Barry couldn't carry his godfather's glove... Say HEY! WILLIE MAYS!!!!

 Senators/Twins: "The Big Train" WAS the prototype for every power pitcher from Dean to Feller to Ryan to "The Big Unit", but for the franchise, it would have to be either Tony Oliva or Harmon Killebrew.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

41. For Chicago teams here's my list:

Cubs: No doubt about it, Ernie Banks.
Bears: Walter Payton, the best ever to grace the gridiron.
Black Hawks: Bobby Hull
Bulls: Michael Jordan, no competition there.
White Sox: I've never been a Sox fan so I really don't care.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. Harry Reems.

You can tell I'm not a professional sports fan.

[jobycom]

47. Emmit Smith for the Cowboys, Archie Manning for the Saints (so far).

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[charlie and algernon]

49. D-rays could have delmon young if he's as advertised

and they're not forced to get rid of him as his price skyrockets

[Robeson]

51. Vikings: Fran Tarkenton and Alan Page.

[MnFats]

52. Kirby Puckett, f'chrissakes!

the only choice for the Twinkies.
a great clutch ballplayer, still missed and widely loved.

[hellbound-liberal]

53. Dan Marino, though Miami failed for years to build a franchise around him

When I think of what he could have done with the proper support, it makes me sad.

[soleft]

54. Joe Namath

[underpants]

55. Boston Celtics-Greg Kite

No doubt

[taterguy]

56. NC State: David Thompson

Hell, he was the franchise player of the entire ACC

[slj0101]

57. Pirates- you forgot the Great One.

Honus Wagner is definitely a legend, but I'd have to go with Roberto Clemente. Great player, but also a great humanitarian.

[PRETZEL]

58. You can't go wrong with any of them

Honus Wagner put Pittsburgh Pirate baseball on the map. Roberto Clemente was, without fail, the most talented player to ever don a Pirate uniform. Willie Stargell will always be "We are Family" and was the true heart and soul of Pirate baseball.

But if there was ever a person who epitomized Pittsburgh sports it's the late Art Rooney Sr. Without him there is no Pittsburgh Steelers. The Steelers will always be molded after his image.

[slj0101]

59. Amen.

And I admire the fact that his sons have kept the "family business" ethic of the club alive to this day.

[Burma Jones]

60. Let me try Football....

Baltimore Ravens - Welll, strictly Speaking it should be Jim Brown, but there is now a Cleveland Browns team, so I'll say Ray Lewis
Buffalo Bills - O.J. Simpson....or Jim Kelly for the squeamish
Cincinnati Bengals - Ken Anderson
Cleveland Browns - Jim Brown
Denver Broncos - John Elway
Houston Texans - None Yet
Indianapolis Colts - Johnny Unitas
Jacksonville Jaguars - None Yet
Kansas City Chiefs - Len Dawson
Miami Dolphins - Dan Marino
New England Patriots - Tom Brady
New York Jets - Joe Namath
Oakland Raiders - Marcus Allen
Pittsburgh Steelers - Franco Harris
San Diego Chargers - Dan Fouts
Tennessee Titans - (Houston Oilers) - Earl Campbell
NFC
Arizona Cardinals - Ernie Nevers (back when they were the Chicago Cardnals) I think this is the most pathetic franchise in pro sports....
Atlanta Falcons - Tommy Nobis
Carolina Panthers - None Yet
Chicago Bears - A Toughie, the Bears have the most players in the Hall of Fame....Walter Peyton or Butkus or Nagurski
Dallas Cowboys - Staubach
Detroit Lions - Barry Saunders (a shame he never played for a contender)
Green Bay Packers - another toughie, have to go with Bart Starr
Minnesota Vikings - I would say Alan Page, some would say Fran Tarkenton
New Orleans Saints - Tom Dempsey has brought them their only Glory - note, only the Saints and the Falcons, among pre-1995 teams, have NOBODY in the Hall of Fame for their exploits while there...
New York Giants - Lawrence Taylor
Philadelphia Eagles - Reggie White
St. Louis Rams - Eric Dickerson
San Francisco 49ers - Joe Montana
Seattle Seahawks - Steve Largent
Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Doug Williams
Washington Redskins - Sonny Jurgensen

[LSK]

61. cant argue against Frank Thomas

[reyd reid reed]

62. Gotta disagree with you there...

Sammy might've been the Cubs marquee player -- but Ernie Banks is MR. CUB. Then there's Sweet Billy Williams...Ron Santo...

Tough call.

[Arkham House]

65. I think you're right here, and I was wrong...

..."franchise player" is more than just the statistical best. Sosa, in context, might not even be more valuable than Banks in his 58-59 peak...and Banks is "Mr. Cub"--and that pretty much defines "franchise player". So: amend Cubs, to "Ernie Banks"...

[YankeyMCC]

67. Boston Bruins

Bobby Orr

That's all I got to add ;)

[azmouse]

68. For the Dbacks not being in existence for very long

they've done pretty well to have The Big Unit as the best known player.

Damn, I'm ready for baseball to start!!