What is Love?

[Patriought]

Little off topic here, but what the hell...

When I was young, I used to be quite happy. Now, as I approach 40, happiness seems somewhat elusive. Why is that? I've got clean running water, no one is shooting at me...Statistically, I'm better off than about 70% of the people living today. I've wonderfully intelligent, beautiful children. As is my wife. However, she's where I believe the problem lies. She's incredibly attractive, and quite intelligent as well. But she has this emotional wall around her. It makes things quite difficult. I've always been able to talk, not to be afraid to say things that are on ny mind, even at the risk of coming off as unmasculine. Actually, that's a risk that has never even registered in my thoughts. Perhaps begat of a legacy of growing up with mostly girls as my peers. Truth be told, my upbringing was as about as non-traditional as it comes. (which is to say normal)

My father was 49 when I was born, my mother 36. He served 23 years in the Army, fought in two major wars, (WW2 and Korea) and was born during the depression. I have since learnt that back in those days that the prevailing wisdom was "never hug or kiss your child; stoicism builds character" Man, the old man was definitely a subscriber to THAT theory. It's my understanding that after marriage, my mother had 5 kids, only two of which survived. Myself, and my brother. Two years older than I, he was born with a condition referred to as Arthrogryposis Multiplex Congenita, type 2. A condition that you may look up at your leisure, as I have not the patience to describe it here.

In short, he was handicapped...A retard, if you wanna be a dick about it. God, how I hate that phrase, "retard", many a neighborhood kid has sent me home in tears by referring to my brother in such a way. Anyhow, When I was born, exactly 16 months later, I guess I was the pride of the old man. Perfectly healthy, straight and true. I'm told that wne I was born, the old man wanted to name me "hawk". That's it. First name Hawk, last name, well forgive me, but I don't wanna disclose too much. Fortunately, Mom was there, and provided me with a more traditional first name, with Hawk being retained as the middle moniker. I used to be embarrassed by my middle name, but as I aged, I began to appreciate the uniqueness of it. As I grew up, I never did altogether well in school, but neither did I do poorly. The running theme always seemed to be, "If only you would apply yourself", perhaps that set a certain philosophy on my head; it's OK to do poorly, on the inside you are smarrt. Who knows?


Anyway, I've always liked the girls. I've since come to the conclusion that it's not looks nor money that seems to appeal, but self-confidence. Surely you guys out there have seen what I mean. "Chicks dig jerks, so true" remember that song? Well, growing up, I never was a big hit with the ladies, but I did make them laugh. I found that this was one of the things that did seem to hold true, the ability to amke a girl laugh. Lord knows, I could do that. I was elected class clown both in the ninth grade and my sneior year. (In my day, there ws elementary scool, junior high then high school. Class "mosts" were voted on in ninth and twelfth) I had what I felt were more than my fair share of girlfriends. Some were considered "dogs" by my contemporaries, some were "babes". They were all babes to me. I've always been able to see the beauty in all girls.

My first love I met in my junior year in high school. Julie. She was very beautiful (to me) and once when I went to her house, she ran out to me wtih a smile and open arms. I had never been so flattered in all my life. I remember her smell on my jacket after I had loaned it to her on a chilly fall night, and wish I could go back and experience that smell again. The vagaries of youth, eh? But those days are gone. I grew up. I grew stupid. After I graduated, my folks tried to pay my way through college, but I was too interested in partying. I only went for a semester, and never went back.

I'm sorry, did I disremember I tried to kill myself? See, while I ws still in high scholl, halfway through the year, I moved out. Recall tha old man? Well, he was a tough old fella, and very strict. I wanted to go out with my friends and have fun, he wanted to control me (or keep me safe, as I now realize with my hard won maturity) I turned 18 halfway through my senior year, and wanted to stay out later than 11 p.m. (11?!? can you swallow that you young bucks? hahaha) ANyway, he told me if I did'nt like his rules, I could move out. Well, being my father's son, which is to say being as hard-headed as a block of steel, I moved out...that night. (Another, "did I mention" but Iwas senior class president. That little moving out exercise made it considerably more difficult to make good on the promises I had made which got me elected. Fuck 'im. I was on my own. I spent the first night in my car. I worked and earned the money to buy that car, so it was about all I took with me. (Mom, was quite the worrier, I realize now that for the first time, I was out somewahere and she did'nt know where-that night must have taken 40 years off her life) I spent the night in a parking lot, in January, in Ohio. Yes, it was cold and snowy. To this day, I don't understand how homeless people survive.

The next day, I arranged accomodations with a close friend's boyfriend. LOng story short, the next several months were a lesson in the real world. I never really realized all the things my parnet's had done for me. A couple of months after graduation, me and the girlfriends boyfriend had a falling out, and I moved in with a buddy of mine. Failure piled on failure, and soon the adult world (which I was woefully unprepared for made me say, "fuck it", and I tried to do myself in.) I guess it was what psychologists would term as a "cry for help", because due to my innate long term memory, I realize even now that I had no true desire to die. Which, obviously, I did not. (note to the young: it's true. No matter how bad you think things are, killilng yourself is a foolish, selfish indulgence. Time heals all wounds. If that's not good enough for you, picture this: Syrup of Ipecap and Liquid charcoal-really nasty stuff. Had I succeeded, my wnderful children would not be here today. Wanna kill yourself? Wait until you're like 60 or something--just to be sure. I would'nt lie. OK, I might lie, but not about this.) Anyway, after this episode, I spent some time in the funny farm. Hell, I did'nt know they made you go there if you try to off yourself.

Afterwards, I went back home for a piece. The old man was true to form, tried to lord his rightness, his "I told you so" over me. But having my own kids, and knowing his past, I cannot bring myself to hate him. The best intentions with the worst results. He loved me but just did'nt know hao to show it. (From birth until his dying day, he never said he loved me...but when I was 16, and lying in the hospital nigh unto death from legionaires pnuemonia; he grabbed my toe and wiggled it. His only expression of affection in my entire life. He loved me. (hope these tears of memory don't short out my keyboard) He was an honorable man. After all, I've read that men who hate their fathers are destined to lead fucked up lives. I don't wanna lead a fucked up life. Besides, I loved the bastard. I know he only tried to do his best. But i digress, back to the story.

After moving back home, I shortly found a high paying job after my colleg failure. Union job, big bucks for a fellow in my social station. Got me some sweet cars (I've always been enamoured of cars) A camaro z28. Funny, but my insurance was pretty high. (must've been those speeding tickets), so after a year, I traded it in on the only new car I've ever owned. A Nissan Stanza (Precursor to the Altima, for the uninitiated) It was with this car, I met my wife. With my bachelor lifestyle, and big money I ate out a lot. My favorite was the dairy queen double cheeseburger with fires. She worked at dairy queen. Even with my high-falutin' sefl-confidence, I would never ask a girl out unless she showeed an interest in me. In my nuuumerous stops at the DQ, I noticed this chick was checking me out. Naturally, being young, dumb and full of cum, I asked her for her phone number. With barely disguised glee and an almost geisha like shyness, she gave it to me. We went out. It wa'nt bad, but I should have noticed the signs. She did'nt want to kiss me goodnight at the conclusion of said date. Tough. I've always loved to kiss girls, and kissed her anyway. It was, shall we say, unsatisfying. After the date, I resolved to never call her again. heh heh heh...Yeah right. I young guy with images of sex in his head. (Caution: God at work) I did call her. And discovered the reason for her reticence. SHe had a boyfriend. Moreover, said boyfriend was the father of her baby! Wow! An attractive, sweet little thing like this, bred in a well-to-do neighborhood, (far removed from where I grew up, where teenagers with babies- such was common) has a baby?!? Well, (and apoligies to any ladies who were'nr bored out of this epic novel 10 paragraphs ago)
the first thought that crossed my young, hormone-crossed mind; "Baby? At least I know she puts out!"

LOng story short, I am now married to this woman, and have three great kids. That baby is now in hihg school, and I do not love her more or less than my two "blood" children.

Ever wish you could go back in time? I used to. Until my children were born. "What is Love?" I'm beginnign to think that it's the definition of anything you would kill or die for. I would kill or die for my kids. Had I not stuck it out with this closed book of emotion that I call my wife, they would'nt be here. And those little squalling, screaming shit machines are my only reason for living. I would without hesitation nor regret witness the horrible, lingering death of every living creature on this planet in order to save them from pain or death.

However, that brings me around to why I started this whole solioquy. Soon, my mother will die. And I will undertake responsibiltiy for my invalid brother. My wife's reaction? This woman who keeps me at arm's length, who will not be my friend, who seems to not want to share intimacy with me (and I don't mean just sex, I mean cuddling, kissing, the whole boat of thigns I have been led to believe that women want) seems ready willing and able to admit my brother into our home? A 40 year old, 90 poound essential baby? (his emotional and intellectual development is about that of a 18 month old) She can't cook, she's a lousy housekeeper, and she won't tlak to me about anything other than things you would casually chat over with a co-worker? I don't mind cooking and the cleaning, I just wish she would open oup to me. I'm a tlaker. And as previously mentioned, I have no problem talking about my feelings. I have even less of a problem listening to the feelings of others. Fuck, call me a girly-man, but I enjoy such emotional connections. (Perhaps as a sop to my masculine pride, I work out-hard-three times a week. My back is straight I stillhave all my hair, and I have not yet developed the "spare tire", so common to men of my age] I just cannot wrap my mind around the wife.

It's to the point where I've quieted down on emothional expressions these last few years, as I always end up feeling foolish when I express my inner feelings and my wife fails to reciprocate such declarations. Speaking of self-confidence, I wonder if it's me. ALthough I consider myself to be a highly oblective person, I can't help but wonder if it is I who is smoehow mistaken. Intellectually, I KNOW this is not the case. In addition to having the ability to form close emotional bonds with others in the past, the knowledge that I have always been albe to relate, is not enough to placate my fears. Emotinally, I always wonder what I have done wrong. WHy cannot I effectively communicate with a person I have lived with for over 15 years, a person who had borne to of my children feel comfortable talking with me.

WHat is Love?

Certainly, I feel love for this woman, but I must honestly admit, it is a love built more on respect than romance. Have I been Poisoned by books and movies? (I'm a voracious reader) Has Hollywood set my standards to high? Along with some former classmates, I'm planning my twenty year reunion. At a recent meeting with the reunion committeee, a girl was there, who seemed overly ahppy and flirtatious. She was inappropriately touchy-feely. But you know what? Her touch sent electric through me. The wholesale feeling I have not felt in years. Due to my parents fidelity and my own personal sense of honor, I would never contemplate cheating but it made me happy and sad.

Is this the price I pay to God for having children who have never suffered any worse than a cold? Personal lack of affection and closeness, even though these are things I desire greatly? Given the Love I have for my children, it is a price I will willlingly, even gleefully pay.

But in the lonely hours of the night; when I've had a bit too much to drink, (obviously) and the time to reflect along with the cold anonymity to the 'net...I wonder. Why me? My life is good, far beyond what most could hope for, and yet...I juat want the closeneess of another human. To be honest, another female human. SOmeone to hold, someone to whisper me fears to and to whisper her fears to me. To haaear a voice say that it's OK. You know what's fucked up? Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be a widower. (and please, no twisted thoughts about "this guy wnats to kill his wife") Given my personal moral code, I could never divorce my wife for anything other than adultrey, something I am confident she would never engage in-one of those honorable attributes for which I do in fact love her.

Just a silent fantasy, perhaps in order to validate that yes, it's not really me; that there are women out there who would value me for who I am, Women who would'nt be afraid to tell their feelings, to listen to my own, women who would enjoy makig love then holding you afterwords and not be afarid to say roamntic shit, to say that they wish they could hold you forever (forget the gay, un-masculine posturing ladies; I believe that most guys wanna hear that stuff. I know I do) Like I said, no one is shooting at me, I've got clean runnig water, but there are times (in my ignorance) that I would almost be willing to trade such luxuries for a true, close, loving embrace.

Fuck, what was the point of this post? I don't know. I'm ashamed to admit that during the course, I've consumed a 12 pack of Bud Light, and more than half a pack of cigarettes. I'm off work tonight, so fuck it. I don't know. Young dudes, take my advice. (and believe me, advice from your elders is something you don't appreciate until you're too old to benfit from) Should you be fortuante enough to find a girl you can talk easily with, one that feels good to hold after you've made love to...Hold onto that chick with both hands. You're too young too appreciate what you have now. But trust me... Your elders were right about not running out into the street when you were young, could be, we're right about this too.

Out of the 5 or 6 people who will actually read this thing out to the end (Hell, out of a quarter of a million readers, that's not an unreasonable assumption, is it?) I hope you will forgive my meanderings. Fcuck it, this is was free. Therapy is not. Who knows, maybe my wife will wake up, have an epiphany, and all will be well. A boy (at heart) can dream, can he not? Incidentally, I apoligize for any typos contained herein. I am sigularly unwilling to go back and read what crazy shit I have written. After all, let's be honest, this was more for my benefit that it was for yours.

Thanks for listening.

Take care,
Mark

[Kurovski]

1. "...baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me...no more..."

I was going to read this , but it's almost impossible to do so without paragraphs.

You might get more responses if you break this up into legible paragraphs. It looks as though you worked very hard on this. There's still time.

[Patriought]

4. Good advice

Strange what hitting the enter/return key can do. ALthough I swore to let this embarrassment lie, I came back to see if anyone had read it. You're right. A self-indulgnet ramble looks much more coherent with a few paragraph breaks.

Thanks.

[Kurovski]

9. You're welcome.

And thank you for taking the time.

May I say to you, Be careful of the drinking? However, people often do come to many great realizations and find new strength when they stop.

Maybe marriage counseling sessions together with your wife for a "tune-up" would help to break the emotional block between you.

And many times a marriage changes once children are grown. You both may find it easier to part ways.

Learning about the signs of chronic depression might also lend some perspective. To watch out for it in both your wife and yourself.

Regrets. I myself have a dozen or so deep ones.

I don't know what else to say, and maybe I said more than I should have, but, take care, and welcome to DU. :-)

[Rosemary2205]

2. I read the whole thing.

You are a wonderful writer. I don't have any answers or advice, but I hope it helps you to know someone in Georgia cared enough to read the whole thing............

[Patriought]

5. Thanks Georgia

Your comments will help to ameliorate the humiliation I will undoubtedly feel after I sober up.

[Nicole]

3. I have no answers for you.

Mark,
I hope your wife has that epiphany.

Take care.

[Patriought]

6. Thank you

I wish I had the balls to show this to my wife. Moreover, I wish my whiny-assed post would actually make some sort of difference.

[tkmorris]

7. I recommended this

Yes, you need more paragraphs. The piece needs structure. Hell it needs a spell check. But aside from that it is one of the most heartfelt things I've seen on DU in a long, long, time.

You are stuck my friend. I have been married three times in my life, and at 41 years of age I can tell you that I am married to the last woman I ever will be. We are both emotionally expressive, and prone to bouts of moodiness, but we FIT. She is the best friend I ever had, the best friend I ever COULD have had. Life is an awful journey, full of fleeting joys and crushing sadnesses, and I cannot remember how I ever survived it without her constant presence.

That is what you so obviously seek. And you will likely never know it.

You love your wife. I can tell that you do. You also know that leaving her would hurt her, and I suspect that you would NOT do. I also am quite certain that such a person as you describe will not change. She is deeply afraid of emotional commitment, and therefore hides from revealing herself. To expose her true feeling to you or to anyone makes her vulnerable, and she cannot face that. Perhaps you could discover what made her this way. It is likely she was betrayed by someone she trusted implicitly when she was a child. Perhaps if you could uncover the genesis of her emotional wall you could begin to break it down. The bottom line is she doesn't trust you with her emotions, and whether that's right or wrong it is reality.

So that is your choice. Leave your wife and seek the emotional bond you need, or attempt to forge it with a woman that you love very much but cannot reach. It's a hard thing and I hope you choose wisely. Whatever you do, know that there ARE people out there who understand, and sympathize. Good luck to you.

[crispini]

8. I think there are other choices available to him too.

To the OP: I feel your hope and desire for this deeper connection. But consider this: there are thousands of people out there who don't even have what you have -- a close, warm family and a wife who clearly loves you on some level.

Consider that one of the things to work on in this situation is *yourself* ... because ultimately, another person cannot make us happy. Happiness comes from within, from being satisfied with who you are and your place in the universe. Another person can make us feel fantastic, that's true, but ultimately, you have to be the captain of your own emotional ship, and that is something you can learn to do within the context of this relationship.

Good luck and peace to you, sir. You sound like a wise and good man and your wife sounds like a good woman. There is something for you to learn here, if you have the capacity to find it, and I think you do.

[zippy890]

11. nice reply

well said, I agree.

'Happiness comes from within, from being satisfied with who you are and your place in the universe.'

something in that, what you said so eloquently

[davekriss]

10. A recommendation

I highly recommend the two of you read The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate, by Gary Chapman. It's easy to read and may open doors to understanding that can make a difference.

I've grown up to expect love to be expressed in touch and words; my wife expresses love through gifts and service. There was a time when I felt it wasn't working -- until a friend gave me this book and I realized how persistent my wife's expressions of love had always been, and how frustrated I could make her when, for example, asked if I liked a complex dinner she'd made me (expression of love as gift & service), I answered naively something like "it's OK, but it could've used more oregano". Since then I've learned to deeply appreciate her giving way of saying "I love you" and she's learned to talk and touch more often, knowing how important the latter are to me.

What is love, you ask? Whether you're a Christian or not, I've always loved this passage:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. These three remain -- faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.
-- I Corinthians 13:4-13

[Kurovski]

12. That sounds like a terrific book.

You're a voracious reader Patriought, give it a try.

[Marnieworld]

20. excellent advice

I am happy with my husband but I can always learn more. Will look for this book.

I Corinthians? We aren't religious at all but we when we got married this was said during the ceremony. We impulsively eloped on vacation and we couldn't be picky. I've always loved it though.

[dddem]

13. You don't mention the father of your step-daughter.

I suspect your wife suffered a great deal of hurt and humiliation in her past, and is afraid to truly trust you (or anyone). i also wonder if she feels as though somehow, she doesn't deserve you or your love. Although it's unfair to you, consider that, like your father, she is doing the best she can with what she has (or is capable of).
Just a thought.
Peace.

[OneBlueSky]

14. "Five feet of heaven in a ponytail" . . . The Playmates, 1959 . . .

What Is Love?

Sways with a wiggle, with a wiggle when she walks
Sways with a wiggle when she walks
Sways with a wiggle, with a wiggle when she walks
Sways with a wiggle when she walks

What is love? Five feet of heaven in a ponytail
The cutest ponytail that sways with a wiggle when she walks
What is love? Five feet of heaven and the bluest eyes
And what a pretty smile that shows you a dimple when she talks

What is love but a little angel who's makin' me lose my sleep?
And she's always makin' promises that she says she'll keep

What is love? Five feet of heaven in a ponytail
The cutest ponytail that sways with a wiggle when she walks

brief instrumental interlude

Shows you a dimple, yes a dimple when she talks
Shows you a dimple when she talks
Shows you a dimple, yes a dimple when she talks
Shows you a dimple when she talks

What is love but a little angel who's making me lose my sleep?
And she's always breakin' promises that she says she'll keep.

What is love? Five feet of heaven in a ponytail
The cutest ponytail that sways with a wiggle when she walks
The cutest ponytail that sways with a wiggle when she walks

Sways with a wiggle, with a wiggle when she walks
Sways with a wiggle when she walks

FADE
Sways with a wiggle, with a wiggle when she walks
Sways with a wiggle when she walks

[donheld]

15. What Is Love?

I love you whether or not you love me
I love you even if you think that I dont
Sometimes I find you doubt my love for you, but I dont mind
Why should I mind, why should I mind

Chorus
What is love anyway, does anybody love anybody anyway
What is love anyway, does anybody love anybody anyway

Can anybody love anyone so much that they will never fear
Never worry never be sad
The answer is they cannot love this much nobody can
This is why I dont mind you doubting

And maybe love is letting people be just what they want to be
The door always must be left unlocked
To love when circumstance may lead someone away from you
And not to spend the time just doubting

[Casper Alabaster]

16. Lounge? n/t

:thumbsup:

[newyawker99]

18. Hi Casper Alabaster!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[fasttense]

17. As a woman in a very happy marriage of 25 years,

I can tell you that yes there are women out there who want their husbands to be their best friends. I feel my husband is my best friend and there is nothing we can't and wont tell each other. Sometimes it leads to arguments but it is worth the risk. We tell each other everything and we can count on the other one for emotional support when life starts beating up on us. There is nothing, and I mean nothing, that my husband doesn't know about me. We are a team for life.

If I understand your comments, you want two things from your wife. 1. You want her to be your friend and share her most intimate thoughts. 2. You want her to be more physically demonstrative.

I can understand your longing to have a wife who will be that friend for you. But let me tell you, not all women want or are capable of that kind of emotional intimacy. To reveal yourself so completely to another person can be very scary. Some people just want to keep all their real feelings private and hidden. They do this not because they are cold and heartless, they do it because that is how they like their relationships. That is how they want their life to be. My father was that kind of man and I watched my mother struggle with it every day for thirty years. Your wife may not want that kind of emotionally intimate relationship. Have you asked her? Is she happy with your relationship right now? If she could change it, what would she change? Will she be satisfied with the lack of intimacy when the children grow up and all you have is each other? If she can't or doesn't answer these questions, then you need a third party (a counselor) to help you work through these issues if you are going to stay together.

Also the physical intimacy you want may not be what your wife wants. My husband likes to cuddle, hold hands and neck, not just sex. He likes all the little physical gestures of intimacy. Me, well, it took me two years before I would hold hands with him in public and to this day, I do it for him, not because I have any need to hold hands or cuddle. If I never held hands with him again it would not bother me, but it would hurt him. I don't need a lot of physical emotional support but I found out my husband and children (especially children) do need it and must have it from me. So I give it them, not because I need it but because they need it. Does your wife hug and kiss the children? Does she stroke them and tickle them? If she is capable of doing it with her children, then there is no reason why she shouldn't do it for you. Explain that it is a need for you as mush as it is a need for the children. When the children grow up, who will be there to hug and kiss her? But since you are obviously in the habit of her not displaying any physical intimacy then it will be a tough habit to break. Sometimes it requires a third party (a counselor) to monitor and reinforce this new behavior.

Let me warn you about physical attraction to other people. Yes, you will always have a desire for others. Every now and then I find that I am physical attracted to other men. I do not act on it. I would never act on it. I figure it is a biological response and ignore it. It does not dilute the desire I have for my husband, and I know, that if I acted on it, it would destroy the relationship I have. So I let the urges pass and go home to my husband. It is not an indication of a bad marriage, if you find yourself physically attracted to others. It's just mother nature's way of reminding you that you are a biological animal.

You started your post by asking what is love. I think you are asking the wrong question because love is tied up with a thousand romantic ideals that no one can fully explain. I think you need to ask yourself is your marriage worth saving. Then you need to ask your wife the same question.

[Missy Vixen]

19. Patriought, welcome to DU

>I think you need to ask yourself is your marriage worth saving. Then you need to ask your wife the same question.<

This is very wise advice.

I think the vast majority of adults in any relationship have asked themselves the same questions you ask, Patriought.

IMHO, YMMV, but I believe love is a decision.

Julie

[The Straight Story]

21. I do my best drinking when I am writing

I enjoyed your post, reminds me of something I would write (ie, tell it like it is and write it more for yourself than others, get it out in the open and so on).

I was married to satan's daughter for 10 years, so I know things can be rough and you sit and wonder..."What the fuck am I doing being so miserable, I only got one life on this planet, why am I wasting it being miserable because of someone else?"

So I left. Maybe not the best thing for you, but there is what I did.

[bryant69]

22. Love is natural and real but not for such as you and I

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[redqueen]

26. Oh that is so very sad.

:(

[bryant69]

28. It's a line from a Smiths song; they don't have all that many upbeat ones

I guess Frankly Mr. Shankley.

Bryant

[redqueen]

29. Heh, yeah... I know...

I like to listen to their stuff when I'm already feeling down and want to engage in the self-pity. :P

Mozza's got some great, great stuff for that, it's true.

[tblue37]

23. My contribution isn't about romance, but it is about the failure to

recognize love when it is not expressed in the way one expects it to be expressed. This is a poem by Robert Hayden, a writer from the Harlem Renaissance:

Those Winter Sundays
by Robert Hayden

Sundays too my father got up early
and put his clothes on in the blueblack cold,
then with cracked hands that ached
from labor in the weekday weather made
banked fires blaze. No one ever thanked him.

I'd wake and hear the cold splintering, breaking.
When the rooms were warm, he'd call,
and slowly I would rise and dress,
fearing the chronic angers of that house,

speaking indifferently to him,
who had driven out the cold
and polished my good shoes as well.
What did I know, what did I know
of love's austere and lonely offices? (1962)

Notice the cry of anguish at the end of the poem. NOW the persona understands how much his father loved him--but now it is, apparently, too late. Whether the father is dead now or the barrier between them is just too high to get over, or whether it is just that the persona can't feel anything but terrible about not having appreciated his father when it could have made such a difference--whatever the case is, the person feels great regret.

BTW, if anyone who feels intimidated by poetry wants help understanding the poem, visit http://www.tinablue.homestead.com/eavesdropping.html

The need for emotional closeness is not insignificant, but the idea of romance and the idea that one person should be pretty much everything to you is overrated.

If it is sex you need and are not getting, perhaps your wife has things in her past that she cannot talk about, but that make her frigid. A good counselor can help you work on that. If she won't go to one, go to one yourself.

But if you just want someone to talk to, get involved in something and find friends. Volunteer in a political campaign, work at the local animal shelter, volunteer at the hospital. Find friends who share your interests and talk to them.

As for the drinking, that by itself might be part of the problem. Often people who drink don’t realize that they have alienated those who love them. I am not saying you have a drinking problem, but that you should honestly evaluate whether you have a drinking problem—maybe even ask your wife if she thinks you do. If you do, that by itself might be a reason for her refusal to let you get as close as you want to. If you have a drinking problem, you might not even have noticed that it caused her to withdraw toward the beginning of your relationship.

But don’t underestimate the love that expresses itself in selfless service to those we love. It is as valuable as—perhaps much more valuable than—the love that expresses itself overtly in words and gestures sanctioned by romantic films and Hallmark Card TV specials.

[Marnieworld]

24. I can't believe I read the whole thing

Don't be embarassed. Many people drink and post here. Not the first or last.

You sound very lonely, sad, and very unecessarily harsh on yourself. Throughout what you wrote there were all of these qualifications for your thoughts and feelings, diminishing statements about yourself, embarassment and regret that you somehow don't fit in or live up to some ideal (I think it's all your father's voice in your head I bet). Enough with the whole conflict over the right balance of emotions, need for love, and intimacy, and reassuring yourself and others that somehow you are still heterosexual. I understand that this whole conflict is ingrained in every man's head but it is so obvious that it is hurting you so you need to stop. Love yourself, accept yourself as you are, no apologies or explanations necessary. The sooner you get that clear the sooner you can try and get what you want.

I have a theory about relationships, I was just thinking about it driving to work today about someone else's life so maybe it's good that I read this right now. Just a regular gal, no psychological credentials so keep that in mind.

You mentioned that your father was strict, harsh, and not physically or verbally demonstrative with his emotions or affection with you. You have made it clear that you are completely different with how you relate to other people and how you want them to relate to you. Yet, the woman you choose to live your life with is more like your father than you. Why do you suppose that is?

My theory is that people create or choose situations in order to re-live and heal earlier situations. With your wife you get a chance to get a do-over but with a safer person. If you got her to somehow give you what you need then it would be like getting it from him finally. You are looking for that kind of validation, that connection, filling the void within you. Subconsiously you can still be trying to get the other love that you didn't get.

Not only that but you chose someone who had this familiar trait because that is what love is (your question after all) in your world. That's what you recognized as love but now you know that it is more familiar than satisfying.

I think that you do love her. If you didn't there wouldn't be this pain and lonliness making you drink and post. More importantly I think she loves you. To accept your brother into your household without a complaint or concern, speaks volumes. That is a woman who is devoted to you, committed to your life together, she is family and is acting as such. You are her husband and she is your wife and that is what love is. It's actions more than words in my experience. There's a good person in there loyal to you be sure of that. She may never be the person you think you need right now- cuddling and cooing and so expressive but perhaps there's more in her that can be expressed than before. Perhaps there can be a new chapter for both of you that may be magical.

A lot of people here have posted about their relationships from time to time. I probably am guilty myself. Lots of times I shake my head and wonder why they haven't broken up yet. I don't get that vibe from your situation. I think that you love her and she loves you but that you are different people with different needs and tendencies. Sometimes we are lucky and things click automatically with people. Other times it takes certain personal exploration and then efforts to communicate together to get to the good stuff.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be in love with your best friend. There is nothing wrong with wanting physical touch to express affection and a bond. And there is also nothing wrong with a person who has some trouble doing this. You started the story not when you met but before you met, conscious of how we are all the sum of all of our experiences. There exists a myriad of pains and contradictions, needs and fear within her as well. She may desperately want to be closer too but doesn't know how to do it. Maybe the two of you can try together.

So I think that you should share (in a bit more concise way) your feelings with her at a time where she'd be most receptive. Maybe get away for a weekend, or a night out together. Say it at a time when she is relaxed and not distracted by responsibilities and chores and not when you are negotiating some boring or stressful marriage business. Make it about how much you love her rather than anything that she's doing wrong. I think that counseling as someone suggested may be helpful as well.

I am celebrating 10 years with my honey this weekend. What is Love? It's not always perfect, it will never be everything that we need, but the sweetest thing about it is the person staying with you. You weather all of the storms of life together, storms between eachother even, but at the end of the day you stay to work it out, stay to honor the good, stay because no matter who is out there or what happens I'd rather be with you. 15 years with a person is such a gift. If you didn't love her you wouldn't be sad that you need more love from her. Tell her- you never can get what you want in life unless you ask for it.

:hug: Good luck.

Marnie

[Tsiyu]

25. Well

:hug: I once took care of a newborn with Arthrogryposis. Very tough. She spent her early life in that hospital; her mother never came to see her. I admire your family for caring for your bro.

You sound like a woman I recently met, who poured her heart out to me about her "loveless" marriage.

It's tough, having so much to give and not knowing how or where.

If I were you, I'd try to rekindle something with your wife. May not work, but book a trip for just the two of you. Pick someplace she'd love to go, arrange the sitters if needed and take care of all the details. Don't pressure her to talk, just try to relax and be near each other.

See what happens.

Sometimes people are exhausted by life and that's what makes them shut down. In a different environment, with a lot of R&R, perhaps your wife will begin to open up.

Decide to be happy no matter what. :P

[redqueen]

27. I think that book mentioned up thread is a good suggestion.

Good luck...

:hug: