Abel Ferrara calls Jimmy Page a "prick" and a "cocksucker."

[swag]

Gee. He's got the same beef I do.

O: I was disappointed when the Led Zeppelin sample from "Kashmir" had to be lifted from Schoolly D's song "Signifying Rapper" for Bad Lieutenant.

AF: Oh, yeah. I'll strangle that cocksucker Jimmy Page. As if every fucking lick that guy ever played didn't come off a Robert Johnson album. "Signifying Rapper" was out for five years, and there wasn't a problem. Then the film had already been out for two years and they start bitching about it. And these pricks, when their attorneys are on the job, our guys are afraid to come out of their office. You're not gonna fight their fucking warriors, you know what I mean? Can you imagine, this was down at a federal court in New York, with a 70-year-old judge, and they're playing Schoolly D and Led Zeppelin to the guy? It cost Schoolly like $50,000. It was a nightmare. And meanwhile, "Signifying Rapper" is 50 million times better than "Kashmir" ever thought of being. And then, this prick turns around with Puff Daddy and redoes it for the Godzilla soundtrack. Here's Puff Daddy, where every other song this boy sang was King Of New York this and King Of New York that. And I would never even fucking think of suing these guys. Why sue? You should be happy that somebody is paying homage to your work.

O: And Bad Lieutenant was hardly even a blip on the cultural radar.

AF: Exactly. And it ruined the movie. I was so pissed off, I said, "All right, fuck this." We could have changed it and put other music in those spots, but I said, "Fuck this, we ain't putting nothing in." This is one of those decisions you end up regretting.

[swag]

1. Them's fightin' words.

[LynneSin]

2. With all due respect I've seen "Bad Lieutenant" and....

...the movie beyond sucked. The only reason I think some people saw the movie was because Harvey Keitel did another full frontal nude shot, but then again you could rent "The Piano", see Keitel's dick and a really good movie to boot.

Abel Ferrara did a few quazi-interesting freakie indie movies that gave him some name recognition but I really don't think much of him as a director.

[KingDaevid]

10. Yeah, but---

---anyone who could concoct THE ADDICTION can't be all bad ;-) ...

[MonkeyFunk]

15. The only good thing

about "The Piano" was I didn't have to listen to Holly Hunter's speech impediment.

[Danger Mouse]

3. I'm all for seeing more of Harvey Keitel's

flaccid penis. I think it would've greatly improved Reservoir Dogs, don't you?
:D

[KingDaevid]

11. I don't think so.

...now if Tarantino could have convinced Lawrence Tierney to piss his pants in the last scene, THAT would have been genius. Would have more than made up for having Buscemi bring up The DeFranco Family before the opening credits. I could have gone another 20 years without being reminded of that act...

[Little Wing]

4. He does kinda look like one

[opiate69]

5. What a dumbfuck..

Here's a tip for idiots like Schooly D... if you lack the talent to actually write your own music, and must resort to sampling, get copyright permission. Apparently P. Diddy is smart enough to understand this.

[mark414]

6. i can tell right now

that you don't listen to rap music

[opiate69]

7. That's right. I don't..

But I bet that somehow negates the years and years of formal music training and experience writing, recording and performing music that I have right?

[mark414]

9. no

it just means you don't know what you're talking about

[opiate69]

12. well then, please do enlighten me..

How exactly is sampling someone else's created work without permission anything other than an act of an untalented, lazy thief?

[ghostsofgiants]

19. Go listen to some DJ Shadow or El-P or RJD2 and maybe you'll figure it out.

[mark414]

21. according to George Clinton:

""And the sampling made us big again." True to fact, ‘90s collaboratory hits like Ice Cube’s "Bop Gun," and Tupac’s "U Can’t See Me," as well as hard hitting samples such as Snoop’s adaptation of "Atomic Dog" and Dre’s "Let Me Ride," brought the Parliaments’ sound to an entirely new generation of crazy mutha-funkers.

Parliaments’ frontman looks at sampling as a form of flattery. "Sampling gets you some writer’s royalties and keeps your music alive. Especially if you’re still around, you can show them where that stuff came from," explains Clinton."


half of the music i listen to i do because some rapper sampled it. and the only reason sampling started in the first place was because the kids in New York who invented hip hop back in the 70's were too poor to buy instruments so had to make do with playing records instead.

do you have any idea how hard it is to cut up records and make something new out of em? do you know how much of an ear for sound and music and rhythm and everything else you need to have to make it work? have you ever taken a dozen 3 second clips and combined them all to make a bad ass jam?

public enemy, because of fear of litigation, would find samples they liked, replay them themselves in the studio, drop it onto wax and then sample themselves from that - cause otherwise yer not gonna get that *pop*, that *bang* that you get with a sample.

puff daddy is a hack - all he ever does is lift a whole song and drop it over some spiced up drum tracks...some real hip hop, some real sampling, you hardly ever know where it's coming from because it's so cut, it's so different, it's so fresh - it's like nothing you've ever heard before in your entire life.

there's a lot of hacks in any field of music - and it's ironic that in a thread about jimmy page you're going off on "untalented, lazy thieves." ferrara was right - what DIDN'T Page steal from someone else? throw Jimmy Page in front of a couple turntables and watch him make a fool of himself. take Prince Paul and throw him in front of anything - tables, guitar, drums, etc. etc. etc. and watch him blow your mind.

[opiate69]

33. "Sampling gets you some writer’s royalties"

yep..unless the director and 'artist" in the OP are involved.. they seem to think copyright law doesn't apply to them.

do you have any idea how hard it is to cut up records and make something new out of em?

Yes.. and it's not nearly as hard as coming up with something original out of nowhere.

Now, as a guitarist who has always maintained that Page was an overrated hack, I won't argue about his technical abilities, but he's been proven to be a unique and extraordinarily talented songwriter (I mean, he actually wrote all the cool riffs these guys want to use, right?).

[mark414]

35. Schoolly D IS an artist

just read this: http://wayneandwax.blogspot.com/2005/09/shocklee-is-prophet-and-i-think-you.html


i bet your parents complained about the music you liked as a kid. guess what?!?! you sound just like them.

[opiate69]

39. He's an artist like...

a guy who orders and builds a pre-cut guitar kit is a luthier.

[mark414]

42. oh lord, i give up

take a break and go yell at those kids to get off your lawn

[petronius]

8. Is there something intrinsic to rap music that requires not getting permission?

He didn't say 'don't sample,' he said 'get permission where legally required.'

:shrug:

[ghostsofgiants]

16. He's saying that making hip-hop beats with samples doesn't require talent.

Which is bullshit.

[Beaverhausen]

22. That still doesn't mean the original artist shouldn't be compensated

[opiate69]

25. No.. I'm saying that songwriters with talent don't have to resort to stealing other artists'

creations.

[ghostsofgiants]

28. Doesn't that translate to sampling = lack of talent in this context?

Or are you talking about Page too?

[mark414]

30. here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6460374&mesg_id=6461589

and there are absolutely no riffs anywhere that have never been played...basically, EVERYONE is stealing from robert johnson. by your definition jimmy page has no talent.

[opiate69]

37. Right..because Bron-Yr-Aur and No quarter are note-for-note reproductions of

Hellhound on My Trail and From Four Until Late. :eyes:

[Joe Fields]

44. Pardon me for not taking that as gospel. I'm looking into it.

[Beaverhausen]

18. Having worked in the legal clearance department at a major film studio, let me tell you

...getting all the clearances for all the samples used in all the songs put on soundtracks heavy with rap songs is a frickin' nightmare.

Why can't these people just write and play their own music?

Oh yeah- they have no TALENT!

[ghostsofgiants]

20. ...

x(

[Beaverhausen]

23. well, then why don't they just write the music themselves?

:crazy: I know- it's a crazy concept!

[ghostsofgiants]

24. Read mark414's post above.

He sums it up nicely.

[Beaverhausen]

27. from his post:

"Parliaments’ frontman looks at sampling as a form of flattery. "Sampling gets you some writer’s royalties and keeps your music alive. Especially if you’re still around, you can show them where that stuff came from," explains Clinton.""


Nowhere do I see him saying that anyone should just take his sample and not give him credit and compensation.

[ghostsofgiants]

31. And that's not what I'm saying either.

Where the fuck did you get that? I'm taking issue with the assertion that hip-hop artists are lazy and untalented, not with the idea of them compensating for a sample.

[Beaverhausen]

32. well that's what this thread is about - the artist who sampled the song in the first place...

...failed to get the license to do it.

[ghostsofgiants]

34. dupe

[ghostsofgiants]

36. And opiate69 came in here saying that Schooly D (and anyone else who samples) is untalented.

And you also made such an assertion.

This is what is called a "subthread." It occurs when there is a discussion within an original thread. Sometimes it is about the content of the OP, sometimes it is a discussion of something said in a reply to the OP. Keep that information in mind, it'll help you out in future message board discussions.

[Beaverhausen]

38. gee, thanks for the tip. Do you have any others for me?

I stand by my assertion that if rap artists can't write their own music, they need to get permission and give credit to the artists who's music they use.

It would just make more sense if they were actual musicians and wrote actual music, don't you think?

P.S. Yes, I'm also a trained musician/recording artist. I write my own music.

[ghostsofgiants]

40. I agree that they should compensated where it is due, and I never said otherwise.

They're following in a tradition. It's simple as that. Mark414 has mentioned the origins of that tradition a few times already, so I don't think I need to reiterate. What they do though is construct new music from old music. I like to compare it to a surrealist art technique called photomontage.

Take a look at the work here: http://www.institutdrahomira.com

Just because it's comprised of pre-existing photos to make something new, does that make it any less valid as art? I'd argue the same about hip-hop. Julien Pacaud, the artist whose site I linked above is a talented artist in other mediums too, but used mostly photomontage. Just like many hip-hop artists are talented in creating other types of music (El-P for example, who I mentioned above, composed a jazz-based album with The Blue Series Continuum.

[mark414]

26. cause they were too poor to buy instruments

the kids who invented hip hop...all growing up in the ghettos of NYC - they didn't have guitars but they had turntables, and could buy records. they made do with what they had and built a global empire out of it.

but they have no talent? i guess it was all just dumb luck...

and to quote George Clinton again (Hank Shocklee was a member of the Bomb Squad, Public Enemy's production team):

Challenging the common complaint that sampling is a product of laziness, clinton emphasized that "hank shocklee is not lazy." and regarding the use of samples in music production, he continued: "it's probably twice as hard to make 'em blend, all those atones and different keys." (i love that term, atones, especially as intoned by dr.funkenstein.) moreover, clinton noted, he himself had been saddled by similar criticism, and from close quarters at that: "my mother called us lazy, too. she said we vamped." by recognizing the similarities between vamping--i.e., playing the same groove for an extended period--and sampling (both of which share an utter revelry in repetition), clinton sought to draw an important, and too often overlooked, lineage between his own music-making approach and shocklee's. "it's just a new way of making music," he said of sampling, matter-of-factly. and the more that the old guard huffs and puffs, the more the next generation will cut'n'paste, chop'n'stab, and mix'n'mash. or in clinton's words, "kids love it when you hate it."

http://wayneandwax.blogspot.com/2005/09/shocklee-is-prophet-and-i-think-you.html

[Joe Fields]

45. 'nuff said.

[Beaverhausen]

13. Who is Abel Ferrara?

[Elidor]

14. I don't know who this guy is, but he's merely stating the obvious

It's like Robert Plant slamming Lenny Kravitz for being derivative. Hello? You don't say? Jimmy stole half his fucking licks from poor black men who lived lives of crushing poverty, but he'll sue you down to the buttons on your shirt if you use any of it without permission. Wankers and hypocrites. Robert Plant singin' about how he's got a woman who won't be true, while he's fucking everything that moves, and then moves on to his wife's sister. Their wankery ruins all but the most immortal pieces of their oeuvre for me. Great musicians, miserable human beings.

(Except for Jonesy. He's pretty cool.)

[swag]

43. Jones is so cool, he collaborates with Diamanda Galas.

[Gen. Jack D. Ripper]

17. Ah, come one

And meanwhile, "Signifying Rapper" is 50 million times better than "Kashmir" ever thought of being.

um, k... I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.




oh and I wasn't aware Robert Johnson wrote Stairway to Heaven, Heartbreaker, The Wanton Song, The Song Remains the Same, The Rover, etc.

[MnFats]

29. Read the Bill Graham biography that came out several years ago...

...the encounters that Graham and his Fillmore Auditorium had with Zep, their manager and road crew leave no doubt what wretched assholes they are.
Peter Grant especially is a malevolent prick.

[LynneSin]

41. You don't have to read Graham's book to know about it

It's pretty much common knowledge.

But I still adore Led Zeppelin anyways!