Why do guys care so much about women's appearance?

[Nikia]

This of course makes sense when they are unattatched, looking for a potential mate. I am talking about married or guys in a long term relationship.
I have some married or otherwise attached male friends who are always talking about the way women look. They usually seem to put the women into two categories: ugly or "hot"/someone who they'd like to hook up with if they weren't attached.
Since I am a woman, this makes me a bit uncomfortable. I wonder what they think about me and what they say when I'm not around. I'd be offended either way. I am also appalled by this attitude. I don't know what to say really.
Strangely, they become paranoid and upset if a said "hot" woman flirts with them at a moderate or higher level or says that they are attractive.
I don't understand. It has also made me more conscious of what I look like because I don't want to be their "ugly "friend. On the otherhand, I'd be offended the other way too. How do I approach this?

[Caution]

1. Why do women care so much about men's appearance?

This of course makes sense when they are unattatched, looking for a potential mate. I am talking about married or women in a long term relationship.
I have some married or otherwise attached female friends who are always talking about the way men look. They usually seem to put the men into two categories: ugly or "hot"/someone who they'd like to hook up with if they weren't attached.
Since I am a man, this makes me a bit uncomfortable. I wonder what they think about me and what they say when I'm not around. I'd be offended either way. I am also appalled by this attitude. I don't know what to say really.
Strangely, they become paranoid and upset if a said "hot" man flirts with them at a moderate or higher level or says that they are attractive.
I don't understand. It has also made me more conscious of what I look like because I don't want to be their "ugly "friend. On the otherhand, I'd be offended the other way too. How do I approach this?

[Anaxamander]

5. I second that. Women do the same shit. (nt)

[Edge]

7. Amen, brotha.

Women are just as bad as men when it comes to looks...if not worse.

[AlienGirl]

65. Ah...not all women

Probably not all men either.

I've fallen in love without knowing what the person looked like, and not caring. :shrug:

Tucker

[Westegg]

11. Precisely...

[OhioStateProgressive]

15. no shit(nt)

[Skittles]

59. BULLSHIT

BULLSHIT. No f***ing comparison.

[Frangible]

60. Dunno about that

Well, I'm a guy so I can't claim to know how the female mind works 100%, but in studies women judge beauty in both sexes the same way men do. Furthermore, all of the women's "list of desirable qualities in a man" all consider physical appearance.

Yes, it is indeed a factor for males-- we all know this. But I'm not quite certain how it is significantly differently for females.

[camero]

62. Skittles

If you don't mind my looks, you can kick my ass any day of the week.

:P

[OhioStateProgressive]

64. not bullshit

and I know for a fact:)

[Skittles]

85. it IS BULLSHIT

and EVERY F***ING WOMAN KNOWS IT. Just look at the male/female news casters. GAWD, I could give you a THOUSAND examples.

[private_ryan]

68. agree

if the guy has money, women are a lot more forgiving when it comes to looks.

[chicaloca]

71. sorry, not buying it....

Here's a little experiment for anyone who thinks that women are more preoccupied with men's looks than men are with women's looks. Pick up a magazine or turn on a TV show or movie--doesn't matter if it's geared toward men or women--and see who's portrayed in a more sexual way, men or women. I bet the answer will be women. Or try dressing as a woman for a day and go out in public if you're a guy. None of my guy friends have to deal with having strange women tell them that their body is hot or fat or whatever on a daily basis. I, however, have been told three times in the last year that I'm fat (I'm 5'5" and weigh 120 pounds) and I've also had a random guy walking by on the street yell at me and one of my girlfriends, "Hey babies, do you like bondage?" I also get "compliments" on my body from strangers, I had strange guys commenting on my skin when I had acne problems that weren't even _that_ severe, and I've had guys I barely know tell me that it was stupid for me to cut my hair when they found out it used to be longer. Oh yeah, and the other day some guy called me a bitch because I wouldn't approach him for some wild sex in his car. :eyes: Really, I'd be truly interested in hearing some guys tell me all about the strange women who harass them on the street for how they look and all the women who harassed them in middle school and tried to feel their chests or penises.

As far as this "we're born that way" crap goes, guess what? _I_'m fucking wired for sexual attraction, too. Why do people always try to deny women our right to our own sexuality and horniness with this sorry-ass line? We're ALL wired to want sex and seek mates, but men are socialized to act horny and objectify women--if women were raised like men, I'm sure we'd act the same damn way. I would imagine that getting rid of this "we're wired for it" myth would be beneficial for men as well--If I were a guy, I'd sure be sick of being stereotyped as an idiot who's led around by my dick. This bullshit about being "wired" a certain way just doesn't cut it; I'm horny as hell, too, but I also have a fucking heart--I would never _dream_ of making a man feel less because he doesn't look a certain way, and I do NOT NOT NOT support the objectification of men, BECAUSE, not DESPITE, the fact that it happens to me on a goddamn daily basis and my guy friends never have to deal with it. And I'm glad they don't -- two wrongs don't make a right. However, I really wish that men would stop making me feel like shit, because I know I've never made a man as bad as they've made me and my girlfriends feel.

Also, why are women always the ones going to so much trouble to make themselves look good if men don't give a crap what we look like? I hate putting goddamn makeup on every day (it hurts like hell because I have a repetitive strain injury) I hate taking my makeup off with cleanser and at least 7 cotton balls of toner a night (more hand pain) I hate doing my hair (hand pain again) I hate shopping for and wearing sexy clothes, and I hate watching what I eat -- but I have to, because on days that I don't look good I get treated like crap, especially by guys (but sometimes by women, too). In short, I hate being a woman. I mean, I'm proud of women as a whole, but I hate always having to explain and defend myself, being worth only as much as my body is, hearing about women and girls getting kidnapped or raped every day and then hearing that it was because of how they fucking LOOKED. We don't blame victims of other crimes, but if a woman is violated people will say it's because she was dressed a certain way or wearing too much makeup -- doesn't that say that we're a tad obsessed with how women look?

Oh, and this weak argument about how women also care about how other women look? It's because we know that men care about how we look, and if you're straight, you're competing with other women for men. Take the guy factor away, and we wouldn't care. We've also learned quite well how to objectify each other from male-created images in the media, and hating other women is a tactic of a society that doesn't want women to get ahead...Divide and conquer, horizontal hostility, whatever you want to call it -- it happens with every marginalized group. And honestly, I see more horizontal hostility going on between women on TV than between women in real life. Hmmm, maybe somebody's hoping women will learn from that and dig their own graves?

[OhioStateProgressive]

73. i guess

but I know for every 15 girls I ask out, 16 reject me on an appearance basis

I have never rejected a girl for any reasons other than meanness

[camero]

75. We had this discussion yesterday

And we thin guys get the same comments, hoots and haws. Eat a sandwich, blah blah. It cuts both ways.

[Pobeka]

78. How many ugly men wearing dirty t-shirts are on magazine covers?

Can't think of seeing one, not a single one on the grocery store rack.

[jimbo fett]

2. Because we're always horny.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Because in the west, a woman's greatest value is her physical

attractiveness.

[trumad]

6. It's called the Little Head doing the thinking

The damn thing just won't behave!

[ArkDem]

48. 'Little'

speak for yourself:evilgrin:

[AngryAmish]

27. As opposed to the great egalitarian cultures...

of the middle east, africa and asia? Please.

[DuctapeFatwa]

37. Yes. In the east a woman's greatest value is as a producer of sons

[ArkDem]

45. No it isn't. It's her

pocketbook.

[DuctapeFatwa]

49. If it is an exceptionally fat and stuffed one, of course

A rich woman is not unlike a rich black or brown man in that regard.

All other values and considerations fade into nothingness next to the dollar.

[buddhamama]

4. why do women care so much about other women's appearance?

no offense Nikia, but i have read quite a few of your posts here in the Lounge and imo, you're a bit fixated on what men think of you and your looks.

[Kamika]

8. cuz we love to feel better about ourselves

that's it

[buddhamama]

12. you focus on how other women look to make yourself feel better?

interesting.

[Kamika]

14. yah

because if she looks worse then me.. I'm better

sad huh

[buddhamama]

21. well yes,

it is sad and totally unnecessary.

you're the cute one that everyone likes.

[Kamika]

28. cute sucks

It's the beatiful ones that get's all the guys are is popular.


If you're cute you bowl on friday nights

[Kamika]

29. err

FYI above post is weird I can't edit it.. I'm not an idiot I can write better :p

[buddhamama]

35. you're speaking to a "cute" woman

when your 5' tall have freckles,etc.,etc., it is pretty much a given that you're going to be labeled cute. i've learned to accept it. btw, i haven't spent too many friday nights bowling. as a matter of fact i can't remember spending any nights bowling.

p.s. i know you're not an idiot and can spell. so guys will like you for your intellect as well. :-)

[Kamika]

36. rofl

Well I've heard I was cute since I can remember and it kinda sucks after awhile :p


btw I doubt that intellect thing :p

Thanks for the cheers though :)

[Frangible]

43. Take this from a guy

But intelligence matters to me, quite a bit. Sure, I won't lie-- cute is good too, but only up to a point. As a geek, I'd much rather have a cute geeky chick who knows what Linux is, than a vapid model.

Of course, cute geeky chicks make up about 0.1% of the women out there, so I've probably doomed myself. Oh well :)

[Kamika]

44. I'm cute and geeky

I even know what Linux is but I have no clue what to do with it

[Frangible]

47. Call me!

Kidding :evilgrin:

[private_ryan]

69. tell me what Apache is

I'll ship you the ring :)

[Pithlet]

79. It's a web server.

But, I'm already taken :P

[SOteric]

33. A valid and insightful question.

Personally, I think you're one of the most beautiful women I know. And I've no idea what you look like.

[buddhamama]

42. i do know what you look like, SOteric

you're a stunning physical beauty.
your outer beauty though pales in comparison to your inner beauty.

your opinion does mean something to me because i think the world of you, and i appreciate that you see something beautiful in me, not based on anything superficial or vain but what is inside :hug: :loveya:

[Nikia]

52. Maybe its a competitive thing

Maybe that's why my mother called my beautiful sister, who stripped for a few weeks to prove to herself that was not true, and I ugly freaks.
For a while when I was in college and had begun dating my husband, I didn't care much about my appearance. I wore make up and clothes I liked but I didn't worry about it. Now in the "real world" I hang out and work with guys like and including my friends and other women who have this competitive attitude towards their looks. Everytime I see popular media the looks are important thing is reenforced.
I do find myself comparing myself to other women when I am out in public. Sometimes, I feel bad about myself because I notice the "model" looking women or feel better about myself noticing the less attractive women. I don't insult any other women on their appearance except my mother-in-law behind her back (but she is overly critical of me).
I know that it really doesn't matter. I have a husband who says that I am beautiful. Small children seem to really like me. If my guy friends really did think that I was an ugly freak and appearance does matter to them like it seems to, they probably wouldn't want to hang out with me, especially in public.

[buddhamama]

53. they're not your friends

if they wouldn't hangout with you in public because of how you look.
imo, you should be asking yourself what you see in people who are so superficial that they'd treat a "friend" that way.
you're doing yourself a great disservice. it is pretty apparent that this is affecting your self-esteem.

[Nikia]

54. Did I say that wrong?

What I meant to say is that that they do hang out in public with me so they must not really think that I am an ugly freak.
I do think that them talking negatively about other women and seeming to value only attractive women probably has influenced me negatively in this way. That's why I want to come up with a non offensive way of telling them that I find that offensive. Maybe, I shouldn't worry about being offensive though.

[buddhamama]

55. who cares what wo/men like that would think?

this is what you said originally: "If my guy friends really did think that I was an ugly freak and appearance does matter to them like it seems to, they probably wouldn't want to hang out with me, especially in public."

seriously, it isn't even so much their gender but the kind of person you are describing. i can't fathom willingly being friends with anyone who would behave in such a way.

you're focusing on the "you" in this equation but look at the broader picture here in regards to guys you call friends or anyone for that matter.

[Nikia]

56. OK I see your point

Now that I think about this more, maybe it isn't a gender issue. I had female friends in high school who pretty much did the same thing except of course they wanted to be like the hot women not be with them. I guess that you are right that this is more of a realizing that some of my friends have an attitude that I take offense to and is affecting me negatively.

[Frangible]

57. Friends shouldn't treat you like that

Society may be superficial, indeed by genetics if nothing else, but that does *not* sounds like the behavior of friends to me. You deserve to be treated better than that -- no matter how you look. If they're ashamed to be seen with you, you should be ashamed to be seen with them.

[buddhamama]

58. i hope i didn't offend you

or behave too harsh toward you.
your "friends'" behaviors offend me , and i'd hate for you to be damaged by their shallow superficial mentality.

everyone should expect respect from one the call "friends". no one needs friends like these. your guy friends really aren't your friends if they would put limitations or conditions on your ability to be their friend. you're a good person who deserves to be treated with kindness and respect, no matter how you look.

[mac56]

9. The women I find most attractive -

aren't too concerned with how others judge them.

Can't speak about the fellas, but I suspect the same phenomenon applies.

[camero]

10. What gets to me.

Why do women get upset when you give them a compliment? :shrug: Never understood that one.

[Frangible]

13. One word: instinct

And I hear the same shit from women.

[Loonman]

16. Why do women avoid homely and poor men like the plague?

I've seen it happen more than once.

[camero]

17. oops

Now you're gonna get a treatise for that one...lol :)

[Loonman]

22. It's friggin' true dude!

Like when people say they value a "sense of humor" in personal ads?

WTF does that mean?

When they find out the dude doesn't drive, or has a physique like a mop, they suddenly have to wash their hair.

[camero]

24. I know it is

Just we get lambasted sometimes for telling the truth. :tinfoilhat:
:)

[Frangible]

32. Personal ads translator

Will take care of me = rich
Has goals = rich
Is hardworking = rich
Is going somewhere = rich
Can treat me right = rich

Sense of humor is just meaningless.

[Djinn]

63. not all of us do

me and my friends seem to have made picking up poor blokes an art-form - evry single one of my female friends in my age group makes more than her bloke

[camero]

67. You make it sound

as if you gals were slumming.

[Lostmessage]

72. I use to have a crush on

Johnny Rotten

[Vitruvius]

18. "The all-American boy cares more about a girl's looks than her brains

because the all-American boy can see better than he can think."
-- Farrah Fawcett

And -- sad to say -- many American women are no better, as "Caution", "Anaxamander", and "Edge" pointed out, above. There are plenty of superficial idiots of both sexes in America; after all, almost half of Americans vote Rethugnican, so the superficial idiots are a major demographic group.

As for you, Nikia, be glad that the superficial (male) idiots aren't interested in you -- you deserve better. There are plenty of men who are interested in a woman with brains & character & moxie; you find such men in R&D labs, working Democratic campaigns, in art museums, in libraries, (sometimes) at SF conventions, adjunct teaching in the local university or college, organizing for their Union, etc.

And now you know the places I looked to find my bride-to-be. It works both ways.

Vitruvius

[Kamika]

39. tru dat!

(ebonics)

[Snow]

86. *snicker* "That Friend speaks my mind"

(Quaker-speak)

[ant]

19. for the most part...

...learn to deal with it. Married/attached men are no different, biologically, than single men. They're highly visual when it comes to sex and love. On the plus side, while it does sometimes devolve into a hot-or-not cheese fest, thanks in part (I think) to our shallow culture and the collective frat boy mentality, I think most guys can find some beauty in all women simply because they just love women period.

Here's an interesting Salon piece from last week, and it has a bit on gender brain differences when falling in love:
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/01/27/fisher/index.html

Anyway, I wouldn't be paranoid if I were you. If these guys are truly your friends, if they value you as a person, then they probably find you attractive as well. We all know that ugly on the inside, over time, makes people ugly on the outside, and cool people you enjoy spending time with often become more attractive to you the better you get to know them.

And if they ARE making nasty comments about you behind your back, they're jerks and you shouldn't waste emotional energy worrying about it.

Strangely, they become paranoid and upset if a said "hot" woman flirts with them at a moderate or higher level or says that they are attractive.

Now that I don't understand - never seen it myself. Most guys I know get nervous and act like silly fools when a hot girl flirts with them, but never paranoid or upset.

[rene moon]

20. Because they are stupid

Men so irritate me these days. I almost want nothing to do with them.
Sad. They need a pretty woman to massage their fragile ego.

I am not the best person to discuss this topic so I'll just stop.

[meatloaf]

26. Okay, which man peed in your cornflakes?

We'll take him out back and straighten him out.

[private_ryan]

74. and women are perfect

n/t

[meatloaf]

23. To be perfectly honest it seems women care more about what other women

look like than men do. In fact, I've been told by many women that women actually dress for other women and not men because they know the women will be more judgemental.

Sad to say, but for most men if it walks upright and is an anatomically correct version of what they lust after, then looks are pretty much secondary.

[slappypan]

25. preoccupation with appearances is completely out of control in America

Among both men and women. It comes from insecurity, I believe it is a result of the very isolating nature of life in America today.

[freestatevet]

38. Yeah I NEVER saw that in Italy or England

Seesh. It happens in Europe too.

[slappypan]

46. yes, they value beauty, but

In Europe there does not seem to be such a deep anxiety about it. Older actresses in England do not seem to be expected to have so much plastic surgery to continue their careers, and French movies often portray older women-younger man romances. Not saying there are societies that don't value youth and beauty, I am talking about an intense preoccupation and insecurity.

[LynneSin]

30. Because their brains hang with 2 nuts between their legs

:shrug:

[Frangible]

34. Damn

You're onto us!

[commander bunnypants]

31. Actually genetic hardwiring

millions of years of evolution are to blame



DDQM

[populistmom]

41. There is something to this

A couple of items:
I have read research done with infants where they show faces of people, both male and female, the infants have a tendency to respond positively to those faces that are symmetrical, which is generally what unconsciously what we perceive as attractive. They indicate this by means of looking longer at the face, smiling, or sucking harder on a pacifier type thing. Obviously, very small infants have not yet succumbed to cultural bias.

In regard to females speciically, I remember once seeing some type of documentary type thing where men of many cultures indicated what they found to be attractive. In all cultures, what men found attractive was a specific waist to hip ratio. Now this varied widely, some men prefering larger women and some prefering smaller women, but what stayed the same was the mathmatical ratio regardless.

I think there are cultural biases, yes, but there are also innate preferances that are based upon biological origins, both male and female.

[Xithras]

82. 1.618 to 1

I don't know why more people don't know this. Humans actually do have a bit of genetic programming that causes males to subconciously look for certain things in women. Smooth, fair, blemish-free skin, for example, meant that a woman was disease free for thousands of years. A symmetrical face meant that she was free of birth defects (and therefore capable of bearing children). And then there's the magic ratio: 1.618 to 1. This ratio is found througout the human body, in the squares, rectangles, and triangles that define the shaped of our features and the distances between them. It was discovered long ago that the closer a body is to this ratio, and the more of the body that corresponds to this ratio, the more "attractive" they are considered (even DaVinci was using the ratio centuries ago when he painted the Mona Lisa). It's difficult to prove, but it's likely that we do have some kind of genetic programming in us that predisposes us to preferring this ratio as some kind of human "ideal". The farther a potential mate is from that ratio, the less attractive they are.

Like it or not, humans are animals and we are the result of millions of years of evolution wherein the very survival of the species rested on finding the "perfect mate". We may have moved beyon that, both socially and technologically, over the last few thousand years, but the genetic hardwiring that we accrued over those millions of years is still very present in us today, and still affects many aspects of our behavior.

This happens to be one of them.

[camero]

83. aha, My next pickup line

Do you mind sitting still for a second? I have to measure your face...lol :)

[Blue-Jay]

40. Why do women care so much about the appearance of other women?

The worst comments on appearance I've ever heard have been from women about other women.

[Anaxamander]

50. So true...

I've heard women accuse other women of having fake tits so often that I'm just numb to it at this point.

[Exultant Democracy]

51. Just Deal with it

We climbed out of trees.

[brainshrub]

61. For the same reason ladies care about how much money the guy has.

Is that a stereotypical answer? Yes.

Is the question itself stereotypical. Absolutely.

[private_ryan]

66. it's a stereotype

just as the "women love guys with money" one.

[opiate69]

70. Brcause that's how we're wired..

The sooner everyone accaepts that, the better off we'll be

[tigereye]

76. can't ever remember my friends ragging on what other women

wore. Sounds very high school. We were the nerds so it didn't matter much. And the guys we hung out with ( also nerds) weren't exactly Adonis material, either, but somehow that didn't matter. I mean I like how guys look, but eyes, hands and hair were what I used to focus on, and if there was no goofy sense of humor or compatible politics, forget it.

Although I always did notice other women looking at each other's ( or my) feet. Some shoe thing?

Guess I've been married and out of the loop too long. It seems that women are even harder on themselves than in the old days. Not everyone can or should look like a model, how boring would that be?

[LastKnight]

77. way to sterotype half of the human race.

im a guy. yes i do care about looks to some extent. (i am unattached, if that makes a difference) but thats biology, horomones, ect. women do it too, its not something people can control without having no sex drive whatsoever, our primal brains are instructred to breed, if it sees something it likes it will show its face in the form of some sort of action. weather it be talking about it or something else. its just the way things are. even evolution cant do away with that.

and not ALL guys are hung up on it. your post made it sound like all guys were shallow and obsessed with only looks. way to put us in one wholesale category.

most of us arent shallow creeps by the way, people just hear about the bad ones.

peace

-LK

[Lostmessage]

80. They want an arm piece to show off

Also some men have hangups so they want to date women that they consider good looking so that they can get past what they are lacking.

[opiate69]

84. No...

Men respond more acutely to visual stimuli. Very simple, really.

[truthspeaker]

81. so what it's just talk

My girlfriend thinks Orlando Bloom is hot. He is skinnier than I am, has an attractive face, is in better shape, and has more hair. Doesn't bother me a bit.