is there historical proof that Jesus existed?

[Djinn]

I guess I generally classify myself as an agnostic, and have always beleived that the story of Jesus was a story about a jewish man who was a bit of a hippie radical who pissed off those in power and was executed for it, after that a bit of mythology sprung up.

But after reading a few bits and pieces I'm thinking my assumption that there is historical evidence of Jesus' existence is wrong? Apart from the Bible which I tink we can take as having a wee bias is there/has there ever been evidence of Jesus' existence, not of whether he was the son of god or whether he "died to save sins" or any of the other incredible bits but just that a bloke called Jesus did exist 2000 years ago and was executed for treason or whatever the charge was?

[nini]

1. is there proof he didn't?

:evilgrin:

You'll get both sides of this one that I usually stay out of because people get to wound up about it.

If I beleive he was real, then it's good for me. If you don't, good for you.

[durutti]

28. Logic Chopping Alert!

You can't prove a negative.

[aquart]

2. This is a fun place to start:

<http://members.aol.com/davecrnll/jesustst1.html>

Displace a few cherished notions and THEN start the hunt.

(I'm very partial to Eisler, btw.)

[baldguy]

3. Nope.

Other than the effect he has had. People have been talking about him for two millennia.

[Kamika]

4. Yes

There's a compilation book with tons of witnesses

[Djinn]

8. I'm assuming you mean the Bible

which is kinda like saying "Bush wasn't AWOL I read it on the Republican Party website" I mean any evidence apart from the Bible - ie there are plenty of other mentioned in the Bible for whom we do have historical references for - we know they exist.

[ComerPerro]

5. probably

The way I see it is:

Did he exist? Probably.

Was he the son of God? Did he really perform all those miracles the exact way they are described in the Bible? Beats me. I have no idea.

[trotsky]

6. The best that can be said is "undetermined."

* The only claimed eyewitness accounts of his existence weren't written down until decades after his supposed death.
* Said accounts were also written by those with a vested interest in promoting the myth.
* Some 3rd party writings verify the existence of Christians but not specifically Christ.
* Some writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian of the time, seem to indicate Jesus was real. However, the authenticity of those passages is subject to much debate. Whole volumes were written about minor Jewish kings. Chapters about common thieves. But the man whom Josephus allegedly called "the King of the Jews"? A couple of paragraphs. Odd, wouldn't you say?

Search on http://www.infidels.org. You'll find lots of information there.

[Az]

7. There are suggestions

But the list of things missing is large.

There are no writings of his that survive.
There are no records of his existance (this includes trial and census information which the Romans were studious about keeping)
There is no record from any of his contemporaries mentioning him.

Of the records we do have, all are in dispute. The single best argument comes from a Jewish historian named Josephus. He writes of a 3rd hand description of a teacher named Jesus. His descriptions are far more Christian sounding than one would expect from a Jew of his time. The problem comes from this.

The documents we have concerning Jesus have passed through countless Christion Copyists hands. That is we do not have the original documents any longer, only the copies of copies of copies of etc. It is a known problem amongst bibliofiles that the documents surrounding the historicity of Jesus were heavily editted. The historical existance of Jesus has long been an issue and anything that could suggest his existance was leapt upon. Copyists are frequently known to have added a bit here or removed a bit there to clarify what they believed the message was supposed to entail. We actually can follow the history of a document by noting the inclusion of different copyists mistakes.

Thus the Josephus mention of Jesus is highly suspect due to his out of character notes about Jesus. There are theories that he may have mentioned Jesus but not so glowingly. There are other theories that he may have been talking about an unnamed individual and the edits placed the name in via assuption.

The existance of Jesus is taken by most scholars as undecided. The claim that there is as much evidence for Jesus as anyone else is simply wrong. There all manner of records for numerous individuals. The biggest issue about Jesus is the total lack of evidence of such a significant figures existance.

[Djinn]

9. thanks Az

this is the sort of info I was after - like I said up until very ercently I had always assumed that Jesus DID exist and was crucified but having looked into it a bit it seems the evidence that really should be around isnt - Roman criminal records like you said for example, so thanks again

[saltpoint]

10. Djinn, I think AZ got this one exactly right --

-- all the sources are layers deep, highly questionable, and subject to interpolation and reasonable doubt.

The Apostles were armed when the Romans caught them in Gesthemane. My guess is that Jesus, a bright and just man but not a magical messiah, was leading an armed (and justified) insurrection against the corrupt assholes who ran the show in Palestine.

A just cause against a ruthless tyrannical government. Final score: Romans -1-, Jesus & the Apostles -0-.

-------
edited for spelling error

[Barad Simith]

11. This really opened my eyes to a lot of possibilities...

"The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ" by Acharya S

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

[cryofan]

12. jesus was one of a series of redemptive godmen myths

from http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html we have a some excerpts of a discussion of the various redemptive godmen myths that preceded the Jesus myth:



Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.


....
Of all savior-gods worshiped at the beginning of the Christian era, Osiris may have contributed
more details to the evolving Christ figure than any other. Already very old in Egypt, Osiris was
identified with nearly every other Egyptian god and was on the way to absorbing them all. He
had well over 200 divine names. He was called the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, God of Gods.
He was the Resurrection and the Life, the Good Shepherd, Eternity and Everlastingness, the god
who “made men and women to be born again.” Budge says, “From first to last, Osiris was to the
Egyptians the god-man who suffered, an died, and rose again, and reigned eternally in heaven.
They believed that they would inherit eternal life, just as he had done . . .”
Osiris’s coming was announced by Three Wise Men: the three stars Mintaka, Anilam, and
Alnitak in the belt of Orion, which point directly to Osiris’s star in the east, Sirius (Sothis),
significator of his birth . . .
Certainly Osiris was a prototypical Messiah, as well as a devoured Host. His flesh was eaten
in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.” . . . The cult of Osiris contributed
a number of ideas and phrases to the Bible. The 23rd Psalm copied an Egyptian text appealing
to Osiris the Good Shepherd to lead the deceased to the “green pastures” and “still waters” of the
nefer-nefer land, to restore the soul to the body, and to give protection in the valley of the shadow
of death (the Tuat). The Lord’s Prayer was prefigured by an Egyptian hymn to Osiris-Amen
beginning, “O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven.” Amen was also invoked at the end of every
prayer.


.....

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

[Az]

14. Hmm interesting tie in there

I have been working on a theory about the experential nature of the monotheistic religions and in particular early christianity. Ancient Roman descriptions of early Christian rites made note of all manner of actions performed. Comparing them to Baccinals and other fests of excess (some less than complimentory).

These rites all seem to be built around the notion of communing with god. This ties into a known neurological reaction that can be triggered by a number of ways. The effect on the mind is to temporarily sever the sense of self. The brain has to learn to distiguish self from the rest of the world. This can be shorted out. The brain does not cease functioning during this phase. It just cannot identify the flow of thoughts with itself. Thus any culturally learned identity is attributed to this flow of thought.

Combine this with notions that the persona Jesus may have been an adaption of Marks based structurally on Homers great works (all students of Greek learned by rewriting Homer) and the rising/mingling of Judaism and Dionysus.

The Bacchinals may have lead to these moments of communion which when combined with the monotheism of Judaism gave rise to an offshoot that soon overwhelmed Rome.

[stopbush]

13. Why not ask old St Paul?

He didn't believe in a "flesh incarnate" Jesus - and Paul wrote, what, half of the New Testament?

Besides, the whole Jesus myth is not much more than a recycling of the Mithra myths.

[starroute]

15. Check this site

http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm

This is the most detailed presentation I've ever seen of the argument against a historical Jesus. For the quick version, go down the page about 1/3 of the way to where it says "The Jesus Puzzle in a Nutshell." For the full version, scroll a little further to "Main Articles."

[Loonman]

16. It depends on how reliable you believe Tacitus was.

Tacitus wrote:

"To dispel the rumour, Nero substituted as culprits, and treated with the most extreme punishments, some people, popularly known as Christians, whose disgraceful activities were notorious. The originator of that name, Christus, had been executed when Tiberius was Emperor, by order of the procurator Pontius Pilatus. But the deadly cult, though checked for a time, was now breaking out again not only in Judea, the birthplace of this evil, but even throughout Rome, where all the nasty and disgusting ideas from all over the world pour in and find a ready following."


Annals 15 : 44.

[onebigbadwulf]

17. There's as much evidence for jesus the historical figure

as there is for Buddha.

Take that how you will.

[terrya]

18. Wasn't the Shroud of Turin some evidence that he existed?

What's the story on that?

Terry

[Loonman]

19. Many different stories

Personally, I think it's a fraud.

I don't believe in the magic tricks, and rising from the dead, but I do believe the man existed.

[RebelOne]

21. Carbon testing shows that it is from the year 1355.

Check this out.

http://www.mcri.org/Shroud.html

[trotsky]

22. Clearly a fake.

And you don't even need carbon dating to figure it out.

When you look at the shroud, the outline of the face is of normal proportions. But if you take an actual 3-D face, put some dye on it, then lay a cloth over it, the pattern you actually get looks nothing like the face. The nose is wide/distorted, etc. Proof #1 that the shroud is fake.

Also, the shroud shows trickles of blood. First off, the body is dead when it is wrapped in a burial shroud. There is no more bleeding occurring. Second, all the trickles are flowing "down" towards the feet. Well, a dead body doesn't normally stand up. If blood really did flow while the body was wrapped in the shroud, it would flow "out" - down the sides of the body. Proof #2 that the shroud is fake.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

26. I believe the theory is that it's the image of Jacques de Molay

last (official) head of the Knights Templar

[rasputin1952]

20. There are a fair amount of records that have preserved...

neither the Jews, Romans or Greeks were an illiterate bunch. Some of the questions arise as to the validity of some of the first hand accounts. Most of Jesus' teachings were done among the poor and just as today, that generally gets ignored until something pretty big happens.

Now, when you add to the equation, that just as today, the news is skewed. The Pharisees and Sadducee's controlled the 'media' of the time.It is not beyond reasonable belief that they would want to out a positive 'spin' on the situation; their power was being eroded remarkably quickly, (just like the current admin?). Articles were "scrubbed", just as some Pharaoh's names were 'erased'.

Are you looking for 'proof in literature' or are you looking for archaeological proof? There are written Roman accounts of a historical Jesus, but he was considered a minor nuisance at the time, and would not have gotten much of a 'write up' in the Roman chronicles of the time. The simple fact that he has had such an impact on the world, shows me that he must have existed.

Caveat: As a Christian, I realize I am biased, but I feel that this is an important question. Many try to 'disprove' that Jesus existed, or find other arguments that tend to be biased to their particular points of view. The impact that Jesus has had on the world, just as the impact that Mohamed has had on the world, shows me that existence is not the question, but rather the cause for many changes.

O8)

[trotsky]

24. There's no "disproving" going on here.

We're looking for proof, and finding remarkably little. There exist plenty of Roman records on people who were much more of a threat to the empire than Jesus would have been. They were meticulous record-keepers.

You can state that the character of Jesus has had a lot of impact on the world, and you will get no argument from me on that. (Whether that impact has been good or bad overall, THAT I will debate.) But that is hardly a reason to suppose that he actually existed. Santa Claus has had a huge impact too - people put up his likeness, dress like him, write him letters, etc. - does that mean he's real?

[Az]

25. Don't forget the 1500 year filter

Of Christian control of most state and historical matters. For the better part of 1500 years the Clergy dominated the collection of all written material. They set the standards by which information flowed down through the centuries. They editted things frequently. They purged even more. What information we have about a historical Jesus is hopelessly tainted by this process.

[GOPisEvil]

23. The Romans kept excellent records.

Their records note Jesus' existence. Now, his explosion in popularity is as a direct result of the efforts of Paul who spread word of Jesus throughout the known world. I don't think (and this is pure speculation) that Jesus was THAT much of a concern to the Romans, nor was he considered the leader of a HUGE number of followers.

[durutti]

27. Not an easy question.

As with all history, there are different schools of thought.

Most Western historians do think there was a historical Jesus. There are some historians who disagree. However, they are considered something of a fringe group.

BUT keep in mind that an opinion's being held by a majority of professionals doesn't necessarily make it right. All of Western culture is built upon Christianity. The West world was directly ruled by the Church for over 1,000 years, and much of it still is (informally). There is a great deal of pressure to not to question the existence of Jesus in Western culture. Imagine the fit that fundamentalists would throw.

Their contention is that the (actuall pretty sparse) records of the existence of Jesus' historical existence were fabricated by the Church. And they certainly do raise some interesting questions.

In any case, I think they do convincingly make the case that much of the biblical account of Jesus' life is taken from earlier mythologies, and that the real Jesus, if he existed, probably bore little resemeblance to the biblical one.