The Nihilism of the Joker (some spoilers)

[crimsonblue]

Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following:

* Objective morality does not exist.
* No action is logically preferable to any other in regard to the moral value of one action over another.
* In the absence of morality, existence has no intrinsic higher meaning or goal.
* There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
* Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, mankind has no moral obligation to worship said being.

Link


The Joker, played by the late Heath Ledger, is one of the most well-wrought and portrayed characters in cinematic history. Ledger nailed every facet of the Joker's persona, down to the sadistic laughter and grotesque jokes that give him his name. The Joker creates destruction for destruction's sake, and he has no higher motive other than further chaos and to live in complete contrast to the morals of Gotham society. Even when caught, the Joker retained his individuality, and refused to comply with the rules of man. He is an anarchist at heart, morally devoid of a soul.

As I noted in another thread, Ledger's portrayal takes the notion of Nihilistic heroe derived from Gardner's Grendel and blows it out of the water. Philosophers will use this film as a shining example of the nihilistic persona for decades to come.

k, your thoughts?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. interesting...

have not seen the movie yet. (what????) yeah, like that. avoid crowds, that would be me. will comment intelligently after I see the film. thanks.

[SidneyCarton]

2. I Agree with your interpretation

Though I think I would characterize the Joker as a Malignant nihilist, for his philosophy drives him toward violence and destruction instead of apathy. Much of TDK I think dealt with how to fight a Nihilistic enemy without losing ones soul. The answer to this question seems to be sacrifice, being willing to pay the ultimate price (ones life) rather than save one's self, or avenge one's self upon an uncaring enemy. The ferry scene in particular illustrates this issue beautifully. In the end, Batman's giving up his good name is the final sacrifice in order to ensure that the Joker's victory, which is mostly symbolic and psychological, is nullified.

[oxbow]

3. the Joker as a dark Ubermensch

He was the "unstoppable force" to Batman's "immovable object." I saw the Joker as someone who had turned himself into something that the world couldn't hurt anymore. His madness made him free, free of fear or angst or regret. Think of Ledger's performance hanging out of the cop car after his breakout, eyes closed and smiling. He had embraced the madness inside as himself, and was enjoying every second of living in this exalted state. If he wasn't so evil, I would describe it as akin to the buddhist state of liberation. The only time in the movie that he gets really flustered is at the end, when neither of the ferries blows the other one up. His plans are finally thwarted, and Batman has nothing to do with it. Ledger's Joker is a bit similiar to the character of the Comedian in Watchmen, who likes to quip that life is one big sick joke, and he's just the only guy who gets it.

He has conquered both death and the Devil; he gives Two-face and Batman each opportunities to outright kill him. He has become something that doesn't play by rules of men or society anymore. Something that doesn't want money or fame or appeasement but in fact cannot be appeased by any external object. In that sense, I think of this Joker as one of the scariest bad guys ever filmed in that no amount of leverage or logic can stop him. Very dark, primal stuff that Ledger pulled out of his soul for this performance and I loved every second of it, God help me! The man came across as a force of nature in this role!

[crimsonblue]

4. the only bad line Ledger had

was that unstoppable force vs immovable object line. but, I suppose the retarded masses wouldn't get the character otherwise. I think one would have to say that the insanity of the joker is truly magnificient. He has a truly brownian motion about his actions, thoughts, and lack of reason. You can tell from the diabolically complex traps and logical puzzles that the Joker has truly genius intellect. It is remarkable that the character is simultaneously both the most evil character in the film, and it's most amazing one. You cannot help but be impressed by the absolute freedom that the joker exhibits. He is living life on his terms, and the pure joy of transcending mankind shines. Ledger's portrayal of the joker makes the character probably the most genius movie character of all time, in addition to his redefining sadism, nihilism, disregard for all human life including his own.

[Lethe]

5. oh, that must be exhausting

say what you will about the tenents of national socialism, at least it's an ethos, dude.....

[crimsonblue]

6. qué?

i'm not sure I follow...

[jobycom]

7. Obviously you're not a golfer.

[crimsonblue]

8. no i am

and now i'm more confused.

[jobycom]

10. LOL! Sorry, those are quotes from "The Big Lebowski"

The first is Walter commenting on a group of nihilists, the second was the Dude's comment when one of the nihilists picked up his bowling ball and said "What is this?"

[crimsonblue]

11. ah

never seen the movie. started it once, but got bored.

[jobycom]

16. It's an intelligent, brilliant, slick comedy full of sarcasm and satirical commentary

on film noir, and a few other genres, and it only speaks to some people in the right mood for it. I love it, but completely understand why not everyone does.

Though, if you want a fun experience, rent "Murder, My Sweet," starring Dick Powell as Philip Marlow. That's the film it's primarily mocking. Then watch Lebowski. A lot falls into place.

[cemaphonic]

23. "The Big Sleep" surely - just look at the name

and the cranky millionaire, the wealthy dilettante daughter, the pornography, the absurdly twisty plot, and so on.

Although as with Hammett in "Miller's Crossing," it draws on other Chandler works as well.

Also, like most Coen films, it's full of references to a ton of other movies, including a bunch of Kubrick, so those are fun to watch for too.

[jobycom]

9. I don't agree.

A nihilist sees no outcome as better than any other, but the Joker clearly wanted only a violent, chaotic outcome. He did believe in a higher goal, though it wasn't clearly defined. He wanted chaos, revenge, horror, violence, destruction.

I've wondered what to call him, too. He's not a sociopath, who knows no right or wrong but has a deep-seated survival instinct. He's not a nihilist. He's not a Satanist or any other form of worshipper, since he sees no one one higher than himself. In the old Dungeons and Dragons games I played in high school, he'd have been Chaotic Evil, in the truest sense. The handbooks described CE as not evil for the sake of selfish evil, but evil for the balance it brings to the spectrum, or even the superiority of evil over good as a defining force. Ledger's Joker (and Nolan's Joker) sees evil not just as a way to get what he wants, or as a denial of all rules so he can act how he wants. Evil to the Joker has some religious significance, almost, without there being a god to devote the evil to.

I don't know what the word for that is. Nolan seemed to believe that's what terrorism was about, though.

I agree this character will live forever in film, and could become one of those literary characters discussed for decades. The combination of Nolan's directing, the other Nolan's writing, and Ledger's acting (acting seems too small a word for what he did--he created a character, more than acted like one) combines to create something unique, and the acting opposite him helped to define him, as well.

This film amazed me, and still amazes me. On the level of an action film, superhero film, crime drama, all of that, it was very impressive--certainly as good as anything we've seen in years. But it worked on a higher level for me. The Joker was a character like you'd see on the news, with no clearly defined motives. You know, the kind they arrest after torturing some poor child to death, and no matter what explanations are given as to why, you just can't fathom the real Why. Nolan had the courage to leave the Joker undefined, and the skill to make that work.

One of the best films I've ever seen. I heard it compared to The Departed, The Untouchables, and Heat, but those seem one-dimensional in comparison. The only films I can think of that held that complexity of character, and that moral complexity (not ambiguity), are the Godfather films and Clint Eastwood's "Unforgiven." And those are pretty good films.

[crimsonblue]

13. I don't think he did always want a violent outcome...

he cared more about chaos, which fits perfectly with the nihilist view. To the joker, the choice was what mattered, and the outcome the mere byproduct. the ferry scene, the hospital scene, offering to quit if only batman reveals himself.... all these are choices the joker offers, and he doesn't care about the particular outcome of any. he merely takes it in stride. Even when the ferries did not blow and he was sent hurling to his impending death, he didn't care.

"Why don't we cut you up into little pieces and feed you to your pooches? Hmm? And then we'll see how loyal a hungry dog really is. It's not about money. It's about sending a message. Everything burns."- Joker

^everything will be destroyed at some point, everyone will die, all that you have known shall pass into obscurity. This is the point that the joker makes. If there is no reason for life and death, then why should we live by any of man's rules? anarchy and nihilism go hand in hand.

[jobycom]

19. Good case for that.

Still, it seemed to me that he was disappointed when the ferries didn't blow up, and a lot of what he said was an attempt to manipulate the town or the people who spoke to, so it was hard to know whether he really didn't care about the outcome, or whether that was just what he said. For instance, when he claimed Batman had to reveal himself, I took that as him wanting to destroy Batman and to turn the city against him, because Batman was in his way. Later he claimed he had changed his mind on wanting to destroy Batman, when Reese was about to expose him. Meanwhile, he had told the Batman himself that he didn't want to kill him. Was he simply changing his mind, as he told Reese, or was he just playing everyone to create more violence? I thought the latter. I thought he wanted Batman to try to stop the violence because that helped him create more.

Chaos for the Joker was violence. For nihilists, violence is a tool. The Joker killed when he didn't have to (Lau, Rachel), created terror for the sake of it.

But you make a strong case. I'll watch it again with that in mind. Not that I care about fine-tuning the label, but I'm curious now about the whole violence issue.

How many movies generate this much discussion?

[crimsonblue]

20. but he didn't kill when he had his best chance..

why not slit batman's throat, or give him a smile when he was pinned under the steel bar? I think part of the reason that the Joker changed his mind and plans so often was that he had no emotional investment in his plan's outcomes. Yeah, he was disappointed, but his mind was already racing forward to compensate for the current situation. This may very well be the only time ever in a superheroe movie that the villain was smarter than the hero. He could account for, and manipulate the events to make happen, every possible outcome (the cell phone in the jail cell). I think trying to distinguish between chaos and violence as a tool for nihilists is kind of just saying the same thing but in different ways. Did he cherish violence? Hell yeah, but I think it was because of the chaos, destruction, and sheer panic it caused society. In order for society to be balanced for the Joker, it had to resemble his own brain-- sadistic, base, fractal. He was probably in ecstasy (or as much as he could have been) at the moment his grand vision came to complete fruition (or seemed to right before midnight).

As for wanting batman dead, i think the joker truly wanted it both ways. He was so mastered at manipulating the situation that he made the possible outcomes result in a way that would please his twisted vision.

[cemaphonic]

24. Of course, taking anything the Joker says at face value is suspect

Given that they took the trouble to point out that he is a compulsive liar (with the scar stories). And Nolan and his brother know a thing or two about unreliable narrators, having written and directed the excellent Memento.

Nihilism just doesn't seem to fit, since if everything is truly meaningless to him, where would he summon the endless energy and religious zeal for his activities? Some of the stuff he said indicated a sense of betrayed and crushed idealism that put him on a mission to show everyone that civilization is just a thin veneer over our survival instinct and fear of the unknown/unpredictable, both feelings that he had mastered within himself. I think he *is* a terrorist in the true sense of the word, but his goals aren't financial or political, but existential (along with the giddy sociopathic thrill of having an entire city jump through your hoops). All this certainly fits with the Joker of the classic "The Killing Joke," which was the main inspiration for his characterization in this movie.

[crimsonblue]

25. if there is no purpose to life...

then why not do whatever the hell you wanted? I agree that there are existential aspects to his character, but that doesn't preclude an overriding sense of nihilism.

[cemaphonic]

26. It's *what the hell he wants to do* that is key

I guess I wasn't offering enough nuance - there is indeed a strong element of nihilism in his character, and certainly he places no value on life, whether it be on of his specific targets, innocent bystanders, or himself (although perversely, he does seem to want to keep Batman alive). Nor does he believe in any model of authority or social order, even the ones that exist among the criminal underworld.

But nihilism can't be the full story here. A normal person, having decided that existence is meaningless might embrace hedonism, or even engage in crimes or other unethical behavior that are fairly low key and low risk. More likely, they'd just go along with their regular life, just because that's what familiar and easy. But I don't see them engaging in a high-profile, dangerous spree of murder and destruction. Why put yourself at such risk for no real purpose? In the Joker's case, look at the sorts of scenarios he sets in motion, and listen to his conversations with various people, chiefly Batman and Dent. He is trying to impose his will on Gotham to remake it in his image, and make a point that people even of the non-knife-wielding-lunatic-clown variety can be pretty damned cruel and inhuman to each other, once the normal social order is broken down. Why would he bother, if he truly thought that existence had no meaning at all?

[crimsonblue]

28. hmm

it probably goes back to that he just wants to see the world burn

[Lethe]

12. i object to one line you got there

"He is an anarchist at heart, morally devoid of a soul."

Maybe you are trying to combine two thoughts into one sentence, or maybe the first part implies the latter in your view.

But it's offensive to anarchists, particularly anarcho-primitivists.

I haven't seen the movie yet, though I guess I'm going to have to see it now that everyone is talking about it....

:)

[crimsonblue]

14. well call me an ass

but i couldn't care less about offending anarchists. as far as i'm concerned, they, nor does anyone else on DU, don't exist.

[Lethe]

15. well that is interesting

I'm pretty sure that i exist, both as a DU member and an anarcho-primitivist. But hell, maybe i'm wrong. It's possible. Whomever owns PBR will be pissed when they find out I'm not real.

:)

[crimsonblue]

17. i'm an existential-solipsist

if that makes any more sense. But, I must say, you are one of the better mental creations I have made here when I created DU in my mind. ;-)

[Lethe]

18. solipism is interesting

especially if you have taken LSD or shrooms, etc.....

because one can feel like the entire world is dead except their mind. Or even that they are dead. (I know what it's like to be dead, I know what it means to be sad)

[unpossibles]

21. you know what keeps me from being a solipsist?

my imagination is far better than a lot of the crap in the world, and there are also plenty of things I could not have come up with.

If I created my own universe, frat guys would not exist. :D

[crimsonblue]

22. the lack of rationality in the world

can explain what you intimated.

[MedleyMisty]

27. I think the Joker is the trickster archetype

I was thinking about how without a backstory or history or explanation, the Joker in the Dark Knight is really like a trickster god.

So I looked up trickster, and the third section of the wikipedia entry is titled "The trickster's literary role in dismantling oppressive systems." And Batman's Total Information Awareness Bat Sonar thing was certainly an oppressive system.

LOL - if you drop the Information part you could call it keeping TABS on people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster

Also notice the bits about duality - "two culture heroes arranging the world", that may be in competition and "contrasted as good and evil".

Here are some other links of people saying what I'm trying to say and doing a better job, with yummy Joker pictures.

http://seeker65.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/the-dark-knights-joker-is-a-mystical-trickster-not-mad-super-villain/

This link starts out as a copy of the wikipedia entry but later on it has some really good points. You don't have to believe the stuff about chakras and soul spirals to see the gist.

http://www.crystalinks.com/trickster.html

I think that this movie is so wildly popular and well-liked and fascinates so many people because it is a telling of ancient myths so far below the surface of our consciousness that we're not even really aware of them anymore. And perhaps, as the last link says, we are so attracted to the Joker at the moment because we are in a borderland, a transitional state.

Here's a very interesting paragraph from the last link. Not the best English, but hey.

"The trickster is an important archetype in the history of man. He is a god, yet he is not. He is the wise-fool. It is he, through his creations that destroy, points out the flaws in carefully constructed societies of man. He rebels against authority, pokes fun at the overly serious, creates convoluted schemes, that may or may not work, plays with the Laws of the Universe and is sometimes his own worst enemy. He exists to question, to cause us to question not accept things blindly. He appears when a way of thinking becomes outmoded needs to be torn down built anew. He is the Destroyer of Worlds at the same time the savior of us all."