My son in middle school was told today to reverse his shirt because it had this logo.

[rug]

:wtf:

[MrCoffee]

1. I agree with making him turn it inside out

[rug]

3. Nazi

[MrCoffee]

4. Yeah, well

I wouldn't let my kid own that shirt, either.

[rug]

6. He got it from Salvation Army for a buck.

He likes biscuits.

[MrCoffee]

7. Biscuits. Yeah, that's what that shirt means.

[rug]

13. When I talked to the principal he said he would not object to a horse t shirt.

[Shell Beau]

15. I don't get it!

[motely36]

16. What?

[MrCoffee]

19. If it didn't have an obvious reference to heroin, why would he object?

As opposed to the Wake and Bake shirt, which has an obvious reference to pot?

[rug]

45. It's not an obvious reference.

[MrCoffee]

50. Whatever.

[Deja Q]

26. So let's sue Pillsbury for inciting drug use.

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

104. Why not, Levi's lead to sex.

[Shell Beau]

132. That isn't what this is about. It is about a shirt that refers to drug use.

Even if it is subliminal.

No one says the shirt is BAD. It is, however, improper for school.

[Sebastian Doyle]

136. Well..... Pillsbury sells carbohydrate loaded products

So they probably make a lot of money off stoners. :evilgrin:

[Deja Q]

23. Dude,

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[MrCoffee]

27. Yeah, well

somebody's got to be the parent.

[newcriminal]

105. Someone has to be the parent?

First, He's mother bought the shirt with him and he was at her house this morning when he left for school. I'm sure she had no idea it was a drug reference. She's a pretty good mom. Second, he came home after school still not knowing why he had to turn his shirt inside out. When I asked him to show it to me. I had no idea it was suppose to be a drug reference. He likes to cook and likes the doughboy and I'm sure that's why he wanted the shirt. My seventeen year old had no idea what was wrong with the shirt either. (I guess none of my family has much to do with drugs, probably due to our bad parenting huh?) Third, for the principal to tell him to turn the shirt inside out with out notifying us or at the very least trying to explain it to him is bullshit.

[Shakespeare]

112. um....rug?

Did you forget to log out/log back in from your sockpuppet?

[newcriminal]

115. He's in bed.

I'm not as argumentative as he is, but no one should mess with my kids. I'm the step mom.

[Shakespeare]

118. Behold the voice of reason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=8293822&mesg_id=8295408

[newcriminal]

121. But what you're not seeming to grasp is

they handled it improperly. He came home still not knowing what the shirt meant and he did nothing wrong. I have no problem with him not wearing the shirt to school anymore, because I guess the teachers were all a bunch of pot heads and view that shirt to be offensive. I have a problem with them saying that my sons wearing of the shirt meant this drug reference because it certainly did not.

[Shakespeare]

123. I'm not a pot head, and I knew what it meant.

Careful with those assumptions.

Your son may not have known it was a drug reference, but it was. I still don't understand what part of the "your shirt is unacceptable, turn it inside out" was improper or poorly handled.

[newcriminal]

124. Do you have children?

[Shakespeare]

127. I've been a stepmother to a teenager daughter.

That good enough for you?

[newcriminal]

129. The problem lies in the fact that it would be acceptable to you

for someone to tell your child to do something, not explain why and make them feel like they did something wrong. That your child wouldn't expect you to stand up for them, and explain that just because some pot heads read that shirt that way doesn't mean everyone else does, and he did absolutely nothing wrong.

[Shakespeare]

133. No, I'd handle it pretty much as MrsGrumpy says she would.

My stepdaughter was a real firebrand, and would've been royally pissed if she'd been asked to turn her t-shirt inside out. I'd have taken the opportunity to turn it into a teachable moment (yeah, I used to be a teacher, too--college English), explain to her why the school found the shirt objectionable while also stressing that it in no way makes her a bad person, and suggest she just wear the shirt around the house from here on out. It's really not that difficult, and you're making it WAY more traumatic and emotional than it needs to be (in fact, your getting in such an uproar about it is only making the situation worse). When you to back to the initial fact that the shirt is flat-out inappropriate, it's really not a matter of standing up for your kid. At middle school age, your stepson should be intelligent enough and mature enough to understand the situation once you explain it to him.

[Shell Beau]

131. Whether he knew it or not (and I find it hard to believe that anyone that

age didn't, but that is just me), the school found it improper. And I think rightfully so. They would have taken much more flack from parents who found it offensive than those who didn't. It refers to drugs, even if "subliminally". They did nothing wrong. They did what any other school would have and should have done.

[newcriminal]

134. what kind of kids do you people have.

I assure you he didn't. He's friends didn't. He's older sister didn't. Nor his three parents. Believe it or not some people are not into any drug use and when they don't associate with that stuff would not have any knowledge that some people that do use drugs refer to that as a drug term. He simply wore a shirt with the pillsbury doughboy.

[Shell Beau]

137. My kid is just 12 weeks old. But I am being real here.

He may not have known, but I assure you lots of other kids in school did. And it is inappropriate to allow a T-shirt that refers to drug usage. Maybe they should have explained to him why he had to turn his shirt inside out, but I have a feeling he may have known. How old is he anyway? Kids in school talk. Whether or not he knew what the shirt meant, I bet he did after kids got to talking.

[newcriminal]

I would take that bet.

Have you not read this whole thing. He had no idea, he's friends had no idea nor did he's seventeen year old sister. Not to mention his three parents.

[Shell Beau]

140. I have read this whole thing. And while some of the older people

may not know what it meant, I find it hard to believe that his whole class didn't. And once one kid gets to talking, well you know...

And since you know that it is a drug reference, then I don't see the problem. They could have handled it differently I suppose, but still they did what they had to.

[newcriminal]

142. and we have repeatedly told you when he came home

he still didn't know, he's friends didn't nor did he's seventeen year old sister. I will state once more, I had never heard the term, and still see no problem with the shirt. Just because you or anyone else sees it as a pot reference I believe speaks poorly of you and not him or the shirt. Now would I let my son wear a shirt with a pot leaf on it or something like that, of course not, nor would he want to.

[Shell Beau]

143. Why does that speak poorly of me? Just because you didn't know

doesn't mean that speaks poorly of me for knowing. It is commonly known in pop culture. Google it and see for yourself. Maybe it speaks poorly of you for not being better educated in a matter that commonly influences teens. And teens do lie from time to time.

It isn't fair to make judgments like that. The point is the schoold did what it had to do. Just because you didn't know what it meant doesn't mean the school should have turned a blind eye. Other kids knew what it meant and it wouldn't be right to let anyone wear a shirt that referred to smoking pot whether the kid knew it meant that or not.

[newcriminal]

144. So now my son is a liar. That speaks poorly of you as well.

I believe there have been several people coming to this thread that have never heard of that reference. We must all be liars. As to the fact that I'm uneducated in a matter that commonly influences teens, I believe the fact that my children and none of their friends knew speaks wonders to my parenting skills. It isn't fair to make judgments like that, but my child is a liar. Who's judging whom?

[Shell Beau]

146. I didn't call your son a liar. I said teens lie.

And they do.

Why even argue the point now? You know it refers to drugs. You should be glad the principal did what he did. That isn't an easy job either, being the principal. I can't imagine many parents complaining about making a kid turn a drug shirt inside out. Just because he or you didn't know the reference doesn't take away from the fact that it was a pot reference. Where is the problem? I don't get it. Plus aren't there bigger battles to fight? This one seems pointless. It is good that your child didn't get the reference, but I promise other kids did, whether or not they were his friends or even in his class.

And there is really nothing else to say on this matter. I hope the matter gets resolved either way. Good luck to y'all.

[newcriminal]

147. Correct you said teens lie.

The only teen we were talking about is my son, and I will argue any point that refers to my son as a liar. Just because you call it a drug shirt doesn't make it one. The problem is with you and people like you making this into a drug shirt and that is bullshit. No battle when it comes to my kids is to small.

[Shell Beau]

148. You said no one in his class got the reference. I am assuming

all in his class are about his age.

No one is making this into a drug shirt. It IS one. It was made for the sole purpose of selling to potheads. It was not made for those who love to bake. I wish it was made for that reason. Your son is probably the only one wearing that shirt that doesn't smoke pot. Maybe it is sad, but it is true. And it is naive to think otherwise.

[newcriminal]

149. What post did I say no one in his class got the reference?

[Shell Beau]

150. I thought I read that! I could be mistaken. Anyway I wasn't calling

your son a liar.

I am going to bed now, the little one needs her bottle. I hope y'all do resolve this. We will just have to agree to disagree I suppose.

[PeaceNikki]

155. Jesus, they didn't suspend him or send him home, they asked him to turn it inside out.

That's reasonable and they handled it properly even if he and you didn't know the reference. It doesn't make them "pot heads", it makes them culturally aware... which is expected when adults work with kids all day.

The teachers SHOULD be aware of euphemisms for drug use and sexual terms and they should ask that these euphemisms not be promoted, intentionally or ignorantly, by the students or teachers.

You and your husband are being ridiculously reactionary and blowing it WAY out of proportion.

[Symarip]

2. HA HA HA

Now I know what I want for Kwanzaa.

[elshiva]

130. But do the pants still stay on?

[PeaceNikki]

5. I am sure the administration was conscientiously objecting to

the obvious drug reference.

I also agree that he should have been asked to turn it inside out.

[rug]

8. They should have fired the principal otherwise.

[PeaceNikki]

10. Middle schoolers shouldn't be wearing clothes that make drug or alcohol references

at school or otherwise.

That's some tacky shit.

[rug]

11. Or Pillsbury products.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Your ignorance is cute.

But it's a drug reference. A very commonly known one.

[Bertha Venation]

29. Not so common.

Is my ignorance cute, too?

:hi:

[IndianaJones]

35. its pretty common. nt.

[rug]

40. His teacher must be cute, he didn't object.

[newcriminal]

106. Not if your not into drugs.

[Shell Beau]

135. Nah, it is pretty common. In pop culture anyway.

I am not into drugs, but I knew what it meant. And I bet most of the students at school did too. And surely they aren't all druggies.

[PeaceNikki]

152. I disagree. If you have kids, you should be fully aware of drug references.

You don't have to be "into" drugs yourself to be aware. And not being aware is, in fact, ignorant.

[Rabrrrrrr]

156. So then, if one is not "into" the Republican party, then one should be woefully ignorant of it?

Because to know anything about it would make one a Republican?

That's your logic here. Such as it is, anyway.

I'm not a druggie at all - not tied into the drug world, don't have friends who use drugs, don't hang in places where drugs are done. And I knew immediately that it was a drug reference.

Just because I know it doesn't make me a druggie.

Your faux outrage is utterly hilarious!

[rug]

157. I'll tell her to reserve her faux outrage for her choice in fine wines.

[Shell Beau]

9. Well it might as well say wake up and smoke a joint.

Probably not a school friendly shirt.

[rug]

44. But it didn't.

I asked the principal where he was getting the drug reference and he said Urban Dictionary. I told him mr first grader wears a unicorn t shirt to school. He said that's fine. I told him to look up unicorn in the Urban Dictionary. He ultimately read the dildo definition. The teacher's name is Sweeney. I told him to look that up as well.

He told me he knew wake n bake was a drug term from his college days in the 80s. No one in my son's class knew why he was in the principal's office or what wake n bake might mean. I told the principal the whole episode spoke more to his college days than my son's middle school.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. Whoops

That's not a shirt for a kid, nor is it a shirt that a kid should wear to school.

It might help if you'd explain to him what the shirt meant, and, one dollar or not, that's not a shirt a young kid should wear.

And I'm stoned as I write this......................

[rug]

49. He didn't know what it meant this morning.

Now he knows, in a most heavy-handed, bluntly stupid manner.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

57. That's awful

That's really unfortunate, but it was your job to tell him what that shirt meant.

Even at that bargain price, that was no shirt for a little boy.

I feel for both of you, but this one belongs at home, not on the people who had to correct the situation. They were just doing their jobs.

Parents. Not letting our kids out in inappropriate clothing, that's one of our jobs.

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. Yeah, it's really fucking hilarious and "in your face, establishment!" to let kids do drugs.

Ha ha ha.

Ha.

Gosh.

"Hey, little Tommy - time to wake up! Would you like the hash or the heroin for breakfast?"

[rug]

41. The Pillsbury doughboy is a gateway carbohydrate.

[crim son]

56. LOL!

You gotta know it isn't about the Doughboy. :P

[Dystopian]

18. Had the same thing happen to my son

Middle school, and he's 26 now...I'm certain he'll remember which shirt it was...I'll have to ask. I wish I could recall just to remind me of what a horrible mother I am...I think he got his shirt in later years with the picture of the rooster on it "Rock out with your cock out" That shirt made me cringe. I'd have no problem with your son's shirt. But that's just me....I know it's not acceptable for school, but I let my son wear whatever he wanted, and he had to deal with the consequences.

peace~

[Shell Beau]

21. Was it one of those Big Johnson shirts? Those were popular when I was

in high school.

[Rabrrrrrr]

24. LOL! Big Johnson shirts - I remember those! I still had one until a couple years ago,

and I got rid of my old ratty t-shirts.

Also disposed of was my "Fuck 'em Bucky" t-shirt. I kind of wish I had kept that one, but, seriously, what would I do with it? Nothing.

[Dystopian]

32. I have no idea

what brand it was. I only remember it was plain black & white....
This is going to drive me crazy until tonight when I can ask him.
Weird how not remembering drives one to insanity :banghead:


peace~

[ghostsofgiants]

20. I'm not sure many schools would be too keen on having kids wearing shirts with drug references.

Yeah, try to innocently pass it off as just a cookie reference all you want, but it's a drug reference whether you like it or not. Even if it's being worn in a post-ironic "It's a drug reference, but I don't do drugs and I really do like to bake" sense, it's still a drug reference.

[rug]

48. It's not post-ironic. It's the Pillsbury doughboy.

And it's ludicrous.

[Shakespeare]

52. Sure. Sure that's what it means.

Un. Freaking. Believable.

[rug]

61. What do you think he thought it meant?

[Shakespeare]

63. I think most 13-year-olds, no matter how innocent, know what it means.

What I'm most curious about is did YOU know what it meant, and did you see him leave for school wearing the shirt?

I'm having trouble understanding your outrage--the school was absolutely justified in requiring him to turn the shirt inside out.

[rug]

66. You think wrong. Neither he nor his classmates knew what the problem was.

And as a matter of fact, neither did I. Nor did his teacher. And no, the school was not absolutely justified.

[Shakespeare]

67. No, I don't think wrong.

I'd just bet the school has a pretty detailed drug policy and dress code, and they can almost certainly find grounds to bar that shirt under either policy (or both).

And now that you know what the reference means, oh innocent one, would you still allow him to wear it to school (or anywhere, for that matter)?

[MrCoffee]

68. Now that's a good question!

[PeaceNikki]

69. I think he just likes to be contrary

and gets his rocks off on getting into arguments here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4575947#4576164

Nobody can REALLY be that thick, can they?

[Shakespeare]

72. Shocker.

Yeah, I've noticed that, too. :hi:

[rug]

74. Disagreeable as you are, you don't get my rocks off. Sorry, Nikki.

Peace.

[PeaceNikki]

75. whew. I take great comfort in that knowledge.

[rug]

79. Not as much as me.

[rug]

70. And you'd lose the bet.

After 20 minutes on the phone with the principal he could not cite either the school or district rule that fit this situation.

And no, instead I'll just silkscreen your avatar and see if they find it objectionable. I believe the Urban Dictionary defines it as: "Where you wax your punani completely, so there is nothing left." I'm sure you know what punani means, oh worldly one.

[Shakespeare]

71. Yes, I know many euphemisms for va-jay-jay.

Still doesn't mean that shirt was appropriate for a middle school child.

And just because the principal couldn't quote you chapter and verse on the policy doesn't mean it's there. It just means the principal wasn't prepared for the call. Take it up a level to the superintendent, and get back to me.

Oh, and p.s.: Still cool with him wearing that shirt?

[rug]

77. Sure he can wear the shirt. I'm sure after three wears he'll be doing lines of coke.

Oh, I already spoke to the District Solicitor. He's a colleague.

[Shakespeare]

81. Tsk, tsk. Logic's not your strong suit.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, on this thread has suggested that wearing the shirt will lead to drug use. We've simply made the observation that by most standards, it's wildly inappropriate for a kid to wear a shirt with a drug reference.

Do keep us updated on how far you get seeking justice for the shirt incident. :rofl:

[rug]

83. You shouldn't cite logic while typing smileys.

[Shakespeare]

85. Oh really?

Explain why. No, really. Go ahead.

[rug]

88. Convinced now?

:rofl:

:eyes:

Furthermore,

:silly:

[Shakespeare]

92. Not in the least.

Just try to make a little sense. I know it's difficult, but....just try.

[newcriminal]

108. We asked for the chapter and verse and gave him time to call back

he called back and still couldn't find the policy.

[ghostsofgiants]

53. Oh, I get it...

You're a moron.

[rug]

62. Only morons call cartoons post-ironic

[ghostsofgiants]

107. I didn't call the cartoon post-ironic.

You really are a moron.

[PeaceNikki]

64. .

[Deja Q]

22. Disgusting. If, 22 years ago, kids could wear shirts with slogans like "METAL UP YOUR ASS TOUR 87"

and not be forced to act like civilized people, that colloquial drug reference should be allowed too.

Or not.

Since when is school about encouraging drug use and showing wanton vulgarity? If I had a child, I'd demand reform. No, I am not being sarcastic; kids are at school to learn concepts. Social activities are relevant, but not like this.

School uniforms would resolve a lot of problems. More that can be said in one meager response and it wouldn't matter how granular I could be in a post, I'll be flamed and called a troll anyway.

[GreenPartyVoter]

25. Actually, I had to turn my shirt inside out back in '88. Profanity..

[Deja Q]

28. You weren't in a certain Twin Cities, Minnesota school district by any chance?

Suburban, rather...

[GreenPartyVoter]

34. Nope. On a little bitty island off the coast of Maine. :^D

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. When I was in 8th grade - 1980 - a girl wore a shirt that said

"How are virginity and a balloon similar? One prick and they're gone!"

Teacher had her turn it inside out.

What the hell kind of parent would allow a 13 year old girl to wear that? Well, sadly, she was from a total white trash family, and I'm sure her parents (assuming she even had two) were hepped up most of the time and paid no real parental attention to their children.

Sad, too, because this girl had a heart of gold in her and a world of potential, and was a lot of fun to talk to - like so many of the "dirtbags", she was actually cool and unpretentious and not a fake. Full of life and goodness. I'm pretty sure she didn't make it through high school, though, due to the shitty home situation. Probably ended up pregnant, and probably the same kind of shitty parent her mom was now, on welfare and doing drugs.

[redqueen]

47. "probably the same kind of shitty parent her mom was now, on welfare and doing drugs."

That's a nice assumption.

[Rabrrrrrr]

78. It's an assumption I make not in judgment of her, but in sadness of her situation

and recognition of the very real truth that statistically most kids who grow up in the environment she grew up in end up in the same environment.

I've seen it a lot in my years of working with teenagers. Unless someone from the outside steps in and makes a big effect (youth pastor, teacher, non-dysfunctional relative, etc.), pretty good bet that the kid of a shitty dysfunctional family is going to create a shitty dysfunctional family of their own.

I don't think there is anything illiberal about speaking honestly.

[redqueen]

99. No, you're right I know.

But I came from that kind of household, and I'm kind of proud of my parenting skills.

Sorry for taking it personally.

[NewJeffCT]

58. A couple of years after I graduated high school in 1985

My old high school forced a girl with an Elvira-style wig to take it off... and, that was just a wig, not an Elvira-style dress. I believe the girl graduated in 1987, so 21 years ago.

[Danger Mouse]

31. Yeah, that's seriously a reference to pot. Now you know.

:hi:

[XemaSab]

33. The only time I remember a kid having to turn a shirt inside out

It looked like a basketball shirt and said "Pervert" for the player's name and "69" for the number. :D

[harmonicon]

36. why did your son have a "wake and bake" shirt on?

That's my question.

[rug]

43. To hide the syringes.

[harmonicon]

46. fair enough

I'm out of school, so now I wear my "shoot horse in the morning" t-shirt every day.

[Bucky]

37. It depends on teh dress code. We don't allow any logos bigger than 2 inches

There are children in Hollywood tonight whose daddies can't afford to buy them a new car for their 17 birthday as cool as the one they got last year, nevermind a family Christmas trip to Samoa like they've done, like, foreverrr... and you want to complain about a shirt logo?

Good God, man, where are you priorities?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

38. Don't let him wear a "shocker" t-shirt either

That's not good either if someone figures it out.

[Danger Mouse]

42. We call it the barracuda

[GoddessOfGuinness]

39. Does he have something against white people?

[Lucian]

51. I see no problems with it.

[tekisui]

54. Sounds like your son has a bunch of damn stoner teachers and principal.

:rofl: :smoke:

I say, keep it going. There are more to wear.

[crim son]

55. I thought pot the moment I read it

and I don't even smoke. But hey, my daughter's high school disqualified the senior class' Spirit Week Contest poster because it had Jimi Hendrix on it, and some mushrooms... the red and white poisonous kind. It took them two weeks to paint the thing; it's HUGE and it was clearly the best. But some fool thought there was a drug reference. :crazy:

[Kali]

59. My community radio station used to have an early morning show called Wake and Bake

eclectic music and a recipe. Of course it came on at 4 in the morning and it followed 4 hours of Grateful Dead.

I'm so glad my kids are out of school. My sympathies.

[cboy4]

120. I think that's the same station that ran the Delicious Dish

cooking show and the Schwetty Balls segment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxRrzVs8vM

on edit, fix link.

[Kali]

139. agh that will take too long to load on my pitiful dial up, but

this was a very local Tucson AZ show, not really much comedy - he really gave out a recipe and instructions.

I need satellite or something!

[cboy4]

141. Dial what?

;)

[skygazer]

60. Even if you didn't realize it was a drug reference, and your son didn't either

(which I find almost impossible to believe), now that you have been apprised that it IS in fact a drug reference, you should be able to appreciate why they had him reverse it. It's just not the best thing in the world to allow kids to wear stuff in school that promotes illegal behavior.

And yes, I wore shit like that when I was in school. I had one shirt with a huge pot leaf and a burning joint that said "Take a break" on it - I wore it to school. And I would have complained if I'd been told to turn it inside out but it would have been a fair cop. This was a fair cop, too.

[rug]

65. Many things have double connotations.That doesn't render it objectionable.

There's nothing about that shirt that promotes "illegal behavior".

"In our system, state-operated schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students in school as well as out of school are "persons" under our Constitution. They are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State. In our system, students may not be regarded as closed-circuit recipients of only that which the State chooses to communicate. They may not be confined to the expression of those sentiments that are officially approved. In the absence of a specific showing of constitutionally valid reasons to regulate their speech, students are entitled to freedom of expression of their views."

TINKER ET AL. v. DES MOINES INDEPENDENT COMMUNITY SCHOOL DISTRICT ET AL. 393 U.S. 503

The view of what the administrator thought the shirt meant does not establish that that is what was meant.

Aside from the the heavy-handed manner in which he was told to take off his shirt, on the substance, the principal was out of line. His view of what the shirt meant was subjective, arbitrary and based on an Urban Dictionary definition. I'll leave it to your imagination as to the host of images or words, explicit, implicit or innocent, that would trigger the same response from this principal.

Bear in mind, this is one of those many school districts that will suspend and/or expel a student if he or she has a single Midol or aspirin on their person or in their locker.

[Shakespeare]

73. Next time you quote case law, you might want to be a little more....thorough.

Subsequent jurisprudence:

Tinker remains a viable and frequently-cited Court precedent, though subsequent Court decisions have determined limitations on the scope of student free speech rights. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, a 1986 case, the Supreme Court held that a high school student's sexual innuendo–laden speech during a student assembly was not constitutionally protected. Fraser qualified Tinker in making an exception for "indecent" speech. Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, where the court ruled that schools have the right to regulate, for legitimate educational reasons, the content of non-forum, school-sponsored newspapers, also limits Tinker's application. The Court in Hazelwood clarified that both Fraser and Hazelwood were decided under the doctrine of Perry Education Association v. Perry Local Educators Association. Such a distinction keeps undisturbed the Material Disruption doctrine of Tinker, while deciding certain student free speech cases under the Nonpublic Forum doctrine of Perry. In Morse v. Frederick, the Court held that schools may, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at a school-sponsored event, even those events occurring off school grounds, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use. Mary Beth Tinker continues to support freedom of speech and demonstrated in front of the Supreme Court during Morse v. Frederick.<1>

As someone who works in the legal field, I find it endlessly amusing when somebody googles case law, and latches onto it with all the passion they can muster, without fully understanding what the case was really about, and what subsequent case law has said on the matter.

[MrCoffee]

76. Nobody gets Tinker

[rug]

80. Speak for yourself.

[rug]

82. If you think the Doughboy shirt promotes illegal drug use, find another field.

[Shakespeare]

84. Wow. It's always amazing to watch stubbornness override simple judgment.

Yeah, it's a drug reference, skippy. :smoke:

[rug]

86. You're right. It is a matter of simple judgment.

[skygazer]

87. Well, you've obviously made up your mind to be outraged about this

Have at it. Personally, I have a great deal of sympathy for educators who have to deal with kids all day long who are not taught anything about boundaries or rules at home, and are encouraged to kick up a stink about shit like this.

And no, I'm not a fan of totalitarianism, or of kids being mindless automatons. But your argument about "double connotations" is ridiculous - no one is going to quibble about things that are so obscure that the majority of people have never heard of them but when you have an entire thread of people who know damn well what "wake and bake" means, it's pretty likely that it's a common term denoting drug use.

[Shakespeare]

90. Just for fun:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wake+and+bake

http://www.wakeandbaketravel.com/

http://www.waytoomany.com/singles/wake-and-bake/

http://www.thestonerscookbook.com/recipe.php?id=113

http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-1494.html

And so on.

[Rabrrrrrr]

91. Like my chaplaincy teacher told one of my fellow students: when the whole room thinks you're wrong

it's a pretty good bet that you're wrong, and you should at least look within yourself to see if, maybe, you are wrong.

We'll see if Rug is willing to look inward. My classmate was finally able to do so, and learned a very important lesson that day.

[rug]

96. "Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen."

[rug]

93. No, I'm not outraged. It does, however, strongly rub me the wrong way.

The "double connotation" phrase is what the principal repeatedly used to me.

And contrary to popular opinion, the Lounge is not middle school. what they know and think and intend is not the same.

[kath]

100. FWIW, hubby and I went to college in the mid-late 70s (and grad school after that) and neither of us

thought of that phrase as a drug reference. Hubby had never heard of it, and he went to one of the biggest party schools in the country - U. of Colorado. U.Colo.Boulder was ranked #1 party school for many years by Rolling Stone. One year they no longer appeared on the list, and the Rolling Stone piece said something to the effect of "Some of you may have noticed that the University of Colorado no longer appears on this list. This is because we don't consider it fair to rank professionals with amateurs."

Sadly, it seems that the "material disruption" concept of Tinker has gone by the wayside. Schools may not approve of some obscure reference to marijuana, but it really seems to be a stretch to argue that such speech causes a *material* disruption to the functioning of the school (and certainly seems less disruptive than the wearing of black armbands in support of a Moratorium Day). Hazelwood was a huge step backward, an abomination IMHO. The "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case even worse. The concept that schools have the right to sanction students for what they do **on their own time** is utter bullshit. I'm not familiar with the Perry case, and no time to look it up now - will check later.
And just because the govt continues to press the ridiculous "War on Some People With Some Drugs", doesn't mean it's right for schools to quash all speech about drugs. Obscenity is one thing, but drug references are another kettle of fish entirely.

Schools are way, way, way too much like prisons in so many cases.

[skygazer]

103. I just don't see it as something worth fighting about

I don't think I would have when I was wearing the darn things. I agree with you on the Bong Hits thing but I don't really see any problem with schools having dress codes and enforcing them.

[Ava]

89. apparently i'm just a moron

because i had no idea that "wake and bake" was a reference to pot.. then again i don't hang around people who do drugs and have never done drugs. i'm one of those "goody-two-shoes".

i had to read through the thread before figuring out what is wrong with a wake and bake shirt. obviously it isn't as widely known of a phrase and some people here on the forum think.. after all i've never heard it.. but if it is a drug reference, i can understand the school objecting to him wearing it.

[mnhtnbb]

98. Ava, you're not the only moron. I'm 57 and I had no idea "wake and bake"

was a drug reference.

I just wasn't into the hippie scene even though I'm from that generation.

:rofl:

[Kat45]

116. I was a stoner in the '70s into the '80s and I had no idea it was a drug reference

Like Ava, I had to read through the thread to find out what the big deal was. I'm surprised folks are getting so adamant, saying one would have to be a moron to not know what the phrase meant. As you can see from the last 3 posts, several people of different ages and different walks of life had never heard of this phrase. And didn't connect it to drugs.

[rcrush]

126. I didnt either

I do smoke pot but never heard of this. But I could see why people would call me a moron. Not because of this though.

[FloridaJudy]

145. Neither did I

And I consumed my share of home-grown pharmaceutical products in the sixties and seventies.

Amazing what you can learn on the Internets.

[flvegan]

94. This thread is splendid.

[Ava]

95. it makes me feel like an idiot

:rofl:

[rug]

97. Almost as good as the eggs.

:patriot:

[KitchenWitch]

113. Instant classic!

:hi:

[LeftyFingerPop]

101. I don't know, I didn't know it was a drug reference until I read the thread.

And I'm far from naive.

I think that half the time, people don't even notice the crap that is on T-shirts.

I think what might have been more appropriate would have been a simple phone call to you explaining the drug reference, and asking you to stop your son from wearing it to school again.

The way it was actually handled might slap a "Johnny wore a drug shirt" stigma on him, when probably no one would have noticed had the attention not been called to it.

[rug]

102. I agree. Common sense and simple courtesy is the best way to handle these things.

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. I didn't know it was a drug reference either, until I read this thread...

BUT, if my son had worn the shirt, been told to turn it inside out...and blah, blah, blah, blah... I would have researched the reference, via the internet (google even) and then been okay with the school's judgement because, hey!, it's a drug reference.

[Shakespeare]

114. STOP MAKING SENSE!

And being so darned reasonable. ;-)

:hi: :loveya:

[ScreamingMeemie]

117. Hey!

:loveya:

How are you? Feels like a long time since I've seen you.

I don't get the commotion on this one.

[Shakespeare]

119. Fine & dandy!

I figured you were WAY busy with the move, but sure did miss seeing you around. Are you officially in the new place now?

[ScreamingMeemie]

122. No... Little Miss Procrastinator is sitting amidst mess and boxes,

playing on the computer. I am moving on the 12th. Can't wait, just wish the packing elves would show up soon.

[Shakespeare]

125. I'm a big fan of procrastination, myself.

In the end, everything will get done. I'm just happy you're looking forward to the move. I'll be in TX Christmas week, but up in Big D (my sister just moved back there). I foresee many, many more visits in the future because of that, so I KNOW we'll find a way to get together sometime!

[emilyg]

110. Why did u let him wear it in the first place?

[rcrush]

111. Wake and Bake is a pot reference?

With the Pillsbury Doughboy? Now I smoke a lot of pot for a long time and I've never heard of this. Am I not smoking the right pot?

[jobycom]

128. Oo! I want one of those for my kid!

Neither of us do drugs, but I love pissing off fascist authority figures! :rofl:

[Breeze54]

138. Tell the Fascist school mongers to FUCK OFF!

It seems to me that the one that ratted him out has to much time on their hands! ;)

[Crabby Appleton]

151. Expect a visit from Child Protectice Services. nt

[LeftyFingerPop]

153. You forgot the sarcasm smiley.

:rofl:

[Phentex]

154. I feel McCainishly out of touch...

I had no idea what it meant.