This is intended to vent, not to offend.

[furrylitldevil]

Okay, I know this post is going to become massive flame fodder, but it's something I just have to get off my chest. Since when has it become a crime to be born a man in this country?

I’ve come to realize that the day I started thinking of women in a sexual way was both the happiest and saddest day of my life. Since then, I’ve been in a 24 hour perpetual apology for my penis. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only man who thinks this way, in fact a lot of guys I know feel exactly the same, and what really gets me going is when I hear someone say “if women ran the country it would be a better place.” WAKE UP! Women do run the country now and if you don’t believe me, just turn on the TV. Choose any show, any sitcom, any drama you wish and the situation is always the same. Women are always the realistic, level-headed, intelligent half of the parenting duo while men play the role of the dumb ape who by some miracle happened to get married to such a woman. Go in front of any large crowd and say “Women are smarter than men!” and you will get cheered, do the same thing and say “Men are smarter than women” and you’d be lucky to get away without needing medical attention.

I don’t wish women any disrespect at all, in fact I have an enormous amount of respect for all women and think every single one is beautiful in so many immeasurable ways…and therein lies the problem. I cannot be an appreciator of female beauty because I am a man. If I find a woman attractive and let her know about it, I’m suddenly a creep or pervert, in fact, the easiest way to get in the good graces of a woman you just meet is to say that you hate men as much as they do. I can’t tell someone that they have beautiful eyes or a nice smile or cute elbows because it would be perceived as a pick-up line. I’ve had girlfriends (amazing, but true) in the past where I try to tell them how beautiful I think they are, and they either look away in shame, or tell me to knock it off.

Many will say that women have held a suppressed role in history for centuries, this I cannot agree more with and it is terrible some of the things that women have had to go through in the past and are still going through today. If I could turn back the clock and change the past, I would, but I can’t fix the problems my parents and grandparents had so I implore you, stop holding me to that same standard. I want the same things you do: Equality in both social and economic status, a monogamous relationship built on love, trust, and respect, and making a life with someone else that is rewarding and fulfilling. The only thing I ask is, stop trying to make me into your best girlfriend. Men and women are different. They are conditioned from birth to have different agendas, different goals, different sexual fantasies, different grading scales by which they judge themselves, different ways of interacting with others. Shocking, I know, but as it turns out, things are usually better when the differences are recognized by both parties. The only reason men have become so passive in recent decades is because we’ve learned that it’s easier to agree than it is to argue. It’s a whole lot easier to answer in the predictable affirmative when the question is asked “are women smarter than men?” Of course not always! But instead of voicing our own opinions, we allow ourselves to be socially castrated to avoid the inevitable argument that would result in saying anything other than “yes, dear.”

[daveskilt]

1. what a load of bollocks

[furrylitldevil]

11. I'm thrilled you feel that way

[muffin_man]

2. "yes dear" life saving words for sure!

[Eureka]

3. Electronic self-immolation?

I guess being a little devil you're used to flames, good luck :-)

[furrylitldevil]

4. It's a form of masochism (sp?)

I like to provoke people into getting mad

Edit: Cool avatar by the way, Zappa rules

[Eureka]

9. If it's to get others mad

I think that makes it sadism doesn't it?

[furrylitldevil]

10. Not at all

I get them good and mad, then they call me all sorts of names and I feel better.

[OKNancy]

5. Snap out of it

Gracious. This is not the first thread on this subject and everytime I see one of these whining posts I think this: Two hundred and twenty-eight years, and never a woman President.

By the way, I can't stand men who think like you do, and I imagine that is why you are having so much trouble with women. Don't tell me that's not the case. I know it is.

[furrylitldevil]

7. Ummm, to quote myself

"If I could turn back the clock and change the past, I would, but I can’t fix the problems my parents and grandparents had so I implore you, stop holding me to that same standard."

I'm just tired of apologizing for things that aren't my fault.

[daveskilt]

39. but dearie it IS your fault

you assume that the problems are all in the past. The problems continue because of a patriarchal attitude perpetuated by men who feel threatened that they do not have dominance as much as they did previously and wish to reassert it. Your rambling diatribe that could have come straight from a rush limbaugh show is simply indicative of this attitude.

Do men get a little fun poked at them for their insecurities? sure. Is there a different standard for PC speak for men and women? yep. well boohoo poor oppressed men, that must be way worse than being a women with a 1 in four chance of being raped, far less earning potential regardless of education, less respect in many professional arenas, religious and political oppression dictating how a woman may or may not use her body (or in many religions even leave the home, get a job, or have children). Yes its tough to be a man in this modern world where we just cant let go of all the problems of the past. After there is a woman president, laws on how a bloke can use his body (say restricting wanking to once a year) equitable pay between the genders and equal access and respect across all of US society for men and women - THEN you might have a point. for now - you dont.

[furrylitldevil]

44. No one seems to be reading my post

"If I could turn back the clock and change the past, I would, but I can’t fix the problems my parents and grandparents had so I implore you, stop holding me to that same standard."

I have nothing but sympathy for the plight of women both throught history and today, but I am being held to an unfair stereotype because I certainly have not oppressed anyone based on sex, yet am constantly treated as if I have.

[daveskilt]

49. oh I'm reading it -that's the trouble

nonesense like
"WAKE UP! Women do run the country now and if you don’t believe me, just turn on the TV"

and as I already said it is the attitude that resents women's newfound shred of societal respect that you exude in your entire post that is precisely the problem. And the male oppresion, this wicked stereotype? It is embarrasing and ridiculous to even mention it in comparison to the continual subjugation of women in US society.

[furrylitldevil]

53. Who said anything about

resenting women's newfound shred of societal respect? Respect is a two-way street, which I've given plenty of. Women and men are playing a new game, but women still use the old set of rules, in inter-gender relations the deck is stacked in their favor.

[daveskilt]

55. so you would prefer the old rules?

get them back in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. darn uppity women daring to poke fun at men. this is such nonsense I think this may be the first time I will use the ignore feature. I never have because I have never seen anyone here with no ability to dialogue or reason. This is pure flamebait.

[furrylitldevil]

58. Again, I was referring to the point

I want the new rules to apply to everyone, not just half the population. I fail to see why you are so upset because you keep misinterpreting my posts.

[CTLawGuy]

67. it IS your fault

you should have thought of that before being born a man...

[ChoralScholar]

18. I completely understand

Women have been inexcusably oppressed in this country since its inception. Women have everything to be upset about in this regard.
But to overcorrect and to tip the scales in the complete opposite direction is not the answer. In fact, it is equally harmful.

We have to work toward a time when people are completely viewed as equal regardless of sex. Oppressing men as a payback for years of oppression is not going to help.

To OKNancy: those comments were not directed at you, just the topic in general.

[bigwillq]

6. LOL!! "perpetual apology for my penis. "

Good post though, very true! Sorry, ladies!

[ms_splash]

8. Look at the couples you see on sitcoms

beautiful, smart, skinny women with oafish, chubby men

You also see this played out time and time again in commercials.

That shows you who really has the power.

[boobooday]

17. Actually, it doesn't

Because it is comedy, and the point of comedy is to make the powerful look foolish, HENCE, a sure-fire formula is to have a woman who is smarter.

Let's face it, Lucy was smarter than Ricky, Ethel was smarter than Fred, Laura was smarter than Dick Van Dyke.

Once we see the roles reversed, then we will know that we are really in power.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[ms_splash]

21. respectfully disagree

If the woman is smarter, she is making fun of the powerful (the man).

it's ok in this country to be chubby and oafish if you are man.

but a woman needs to look good in a miniskirt.

And the fact that that chubby oaf can get a hottie?

Oh well, my husband and I tossed our tv a couple of years ago and all we watch are taped simpsons, futuramas, and red dwarf episodes.

[furrylitldevil]

24. That's probably the best way to go

Watching the Simpsons and Futurama. I've never heard of Red Dwarf but I imagine something educational, and that's always good.

[ms_splash]

26. not really educational, but oh so funny

Low budget English science fiction.

[slinkerwink]

30. ugly women never get the hot-looking guys on sitcoms

[furrylitldevil]

33. I thought the appearance of man

was not as important as what kind of a person he's like, which would make these shows bigger hypocrisies. If it is true that women focus more on the personality, then why do these sitcoms show sophisticated women married to cultural black-holes? Passive-aggressive domination? (dramatic organ music playing in the background)

[slinkerwink]

34. Women also do focus on looks as well as personalities

[furrylitldevil]

37. But which is usually the higher priority?

[slinkerwink]

40. It's usually personalities whereas with most men, it's looks

[furrylitldevil]

54. So there you go.

[CTLawGuy]

69. no, it's how tall you are

and then everything else.

[daveskilt]

56. hurrah for red dwarf - and other thoughts on comedy

a thought I heard on comedy mocking the powerful. Richard Pryor used to make fun of white people in the audience with really harsh racial stereotypes and they would laugh. If a white comedian tried that with african american audience members it would not be funny. Why? The white people in the audience knew they had nothing to fear from this black man - he had no power over their lives once they left the theatre. The african american audience members would have to go out and continue to face the stereotypes - that makes the stereotypes not funny. Where the sitcoms make fun of the man they are funny because the men watching are not threatened by the stereotype (of course some men feel threatened by anything - hence threads like this silly one). Where they reinforce the gender role stereotypes in that the women must be pretty etc. is simply an indication of how deeply ingrained the subjugation of women is.

smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.

[furrylitldevil]

63. Chris Rock and Dave Chepelle

both make fun of the black community and everyone in the audience laughs. By your rationalle, that would make them white people.

[furrylitldevil]

22. I thought the point of comedy was to entertain

"Because it is comedy, and the point of comedy is to make the powerful look foolish, HENCE, a sure-fire formula is to have a woman who is smarter."

That's one type of comedy, but not the purpose of comedy in general.

[ChoralScholar]

12. I will refrain from commenting on most of this

but I will say, I get a little tired of the 'stupid man' stereotype on television. But, I have to say, I see a lot of 'stupid women' stereotypes also. But that's a whole other diatribe.

That being said, I just get a little irritated at shows where it appears as if the man could not even put his shoes on the correct feet if it were not for the woman of the show. I.E. King of Queens, and Everybody Loves Raymond.

What worries me is a whole generation of little boys and girls growing up watching this and thinking that relationships are supposed to be this way. Boys need good role models of intelligent self-sufficient men to look up to, not bumbling oafs who can't even wipe their own ass.
Likewise, girls need good role models of intelligent, strong, independent women who are not defined by having to care for stupid husbands.

Mark my words, given a generation or two, it could prove to be as socially dangerous as the female opression of the previous generations.

I would like to see more equal and intelligent couples on television. I can only think of one good example at this point, Mad About You. Maybe some other people can name some more programs that set positive examples for children of both sexes.

Sorry about the length of this post. I teach kids everyday whose only model for living is what they see on TV. Hopefully, we will see more shows that can help kids to become better people.

[Eureka]

27. I'd like to see

more actual parenting rather than babysitting-via-television, then maybe kids will get role models from real people rather than manufactured commercial garbage.

[ChoralScholar]

114. you and me both

but I'll take what I can get.

[daveskilt]

42. I think glorification of stupidity on TV is pretty equitable genderwise

and it does stink, it leads to people voting for the dumb guy instead of the Rhodes scholar. I want a smart president.

[rusk2003]

13. I suppose That is Life I guess

Onbce the Cards are dealt everyone feels Screwed one way or another.

[sendero]

14. It took me .....

... 30 years (after I started thinking about it) to figure women out.

I'm not about to give it away here, I earned it - and only a few would get it anyway, and the rest would throw bricks at me :)

One thing is for sure - the world would suck without women. And that is all you need to know.

[Interrobang]

15. Ok, then...

I'm going to walk up to you and take out your wallet from your pocket. For every dollar in there, I'm going to give you back 80 cents. Feel good? No, didn't think so. That's the economic reality of being a woman today, even still, and that's really the only indicator that matters.

(Sit-coms pander to their audiences, ever notice?)

[furrylitldevil]

19. Again...

If I could quote myself here...

"If I could turn back the clock and change the past, I would, but I can’t fix the problems my parents and grandparents had so I implore you, stop holding me to that same standard."

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. What does the past have to do with current day?

In case you haven't noticed, women are still getting paid less. In case you haven't noticed there are more men in the Senate and Congress than women. In case you haven't noticed, there still isn't a woman running the country.

This isn't about past, because it is STILL HAPPENING!

[furrylitldevil]

In case you haven't noticed

I talked about that. If there were anything I could do to change the past, I would do it. If I could change the present, I would do that as well because I think both sides should be equal in all areas. As it stands, I have done nothing to promote the lack of women representing the American people and if one were to run for president and have a legimate shot at winning (Hilary) then I would vote for them. And in case you haven't noticed, the past lead us to the present, we are to this day embracing the sins of our forfathers, it's not like all of the people in the world woke up yesderday and in unison decided to oppress women for the last 20,000 some odd years ago.

[Burma Jones]

16. Wha???????

You watch too much fucking TV. The people that RUN this country, male and female, Democrat and Republican, do not watch so much TV so they do not care who looks dumb in a sitcom. You can find plenty of crowds where you can say Men are smarter than Women and be cheered, Jeez haven't you ever heard of Promise Keepers? Perhaps you should get a little self confidence and not blame the entertainment industry.

If people think you're a creep or a pervert simply because you tell a woman she is beautiful, you need to get yourself some game - seriously. I told my wife that she was beautiful well before we even started dating. I also told her she made me horny, to which she replied, "a dial tone makes you horny." THEN she started dating me.

Of course, you may be between 13 and 22, in which case what you're experiencing is normal and you shouldn't worry about it.

[furrylitldevil]

20. I'm not blaming the entertainment industry

But art imitates life, and no, I have never heard of Promise Keepers. But the fact does still remain true for 99.9% of the population.

Of course, you are probably right in thinking I shouldn't worry about it, but there's not much else I can do with my free time.

[Burma Jones]

28. If you think TV is art you need to spend your free time at a museum

or a theatre or even the movies, where you do not see much of the phenomenon you mention.

But, you seem like a good enough guy to let this resentment go and go out and get laid.

[furrylitldevil]

31. Believe me

I am plugged into the social pipeline. I'm in a band so I get around to seeing other bands, I go to the theater whenever I can, but I haven't been into a gallery in some time. My point is, television is a visual medium, a form of expression (however crude that may be) and is thus, art in the technical sense. Sadly, the only exposure to art most people have.

As far as going out and getting laid, I was never interested in just "getting laid," I'm more of a commitment guy, myself.

[daveskilt]

43. closer to 13 is my guess

[furrylitldevil]

46. Guess again

[bhunt70]

47. this is a great post hehe, especially the second half.

[slinkerwink]

23. Women don't run the country because they're a minority in Congress

[furrylitldevil]

25. Women might not have a majority in congress

but that doesn't mean they have less influence on the day to day events in the lives of average citizens.

[slinkerwink]

29. women actually don't-----they just passed an abortion ban in SD

and women are ignored when it comes to insurance coverage of contraception.

[furrylitldevil]

32. For as many women that do support abortion

there are a lot who don't, that whole religious thing. Unfortunately you can't get anywhere in politics without pandering to the religious extremists, even democrats can't deny that.

[slinkerwink]

35. that's why women aren't in power is because the government allows

the reproductive rights movement to be disrupted by the religious movement.

[furrylitldevil]

36. and there aren't religious women?

If there was an overwhelming majority of women across all ethnic and social classes that didn't want this law passed, then there's no way it would get passed.

[slinkerwink]

38. I'm saying that a lot of religions like the catholic church and the

southern baptism are sexist towards women in their reproductive rights. Women can't be priests, etc....Patriachial religions, as a whole, has been very misgynostic towards women.

[furrylitldevil]

45. Everyone seems to be taking this the wrong way.

There is absolutely nothing I would like more to see than equality. I don't like the history of oppression as much as anyone else, but no one can deny that in the last few years there has been an overall power shift among the sexes. I'm an advocate of balance, not one over the other and right now, there is no balance.

[daveskilt]

50. would you say the balance has shifted in womens favor??

surely not.

[furrylitldevil]

59. In certain areas of society, yes

Women love to rant and rave about being the "fairer sex" or the "superior gender" but it does take two to tango. Men might not be generally as overtly graceful in action or easier on the eyes, but are not inferior to women, nor are they superior, equally different and equally necessary

[Dunedain]

41. My momma told me once I got my first girlfriend...

If momma ain't happy, it's a problem,
If you ain't happy, nobody gives a shit.

But seriously, it's about respect, kindness and love. Can't go too wrong approaching the fairer sex with that attitude.

As far as whats piped into our homes on the idiot box, i take that with a grain.

[furrylitldevil]

48. Thanks for illustrating the point

"If momma ain't happy, it's a problem,
If you ain't happy, nobody gives a shit."

Need I say more?

"But seriously, it's about respect, kindness and love. Can't go too wrong approaching the fairer sex with that attitude."

I couldn't agree more, that's all I've ever tried to do.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

51. I'll address a few points...

1. The "stupid man" cliche. First, it is a cliche, and that's what tv does best. Boobooday had it right in that men are ridiculed because men are the ones in power. I'm just as disgusted by the stereotype not because it demeans men but because it excuses them. It implies that grown men can't possibly be expected to take some responsibility in a relationship or to act with any consideration. They're just "too dumb". Of course what is also being implied is that women have some complicated set of requirements for men to live up to because we're so irrational. If Raymond is the typical "stupid husband," Debra is the typical "crazy b*tch" of a wife. And why are attractive, hard-working women paired up with guys like Jim Belushi and similar characters? It seems to be saying that is the best women can expect. Incidentally, if you want to use tv as a guide for how much women "run the world," start paying attention to how many men (hint: almost zero) are featured in ads for dish soap and the like. Advertisers still seem to think this is the 1950s.

2. You're right, most women don't like strange men (or even men they know) to come up to them and start complimenting them on their appearance, and if you're trying to get dates this way it's no wonder you're not having much luck. Is that the only way you know of to communicate with women?

3. "Men and women are different."? People are different! Not all women like to shop, are communicative, and crave commitment. Not all men like sports, hate to talk about feelings, and care only about sex. No one is asking you to be a woman or act like a woman, whatever that means. Just don't assume women are all going to act the same way.

4. "The only reason men have become so passive in recent decades is because we’ve learned that it’s easier to agree than it is to argue... instead of voicing our own opinions, we allow ourselves to be socially castrated to avoid the inevitable argument that would result in saying anything other than 'yes, dear.'" Well, if you're such a wuss that you are afraid to voice your opinions, whose fault is that? And you seem to be generalizing this behavior to all men, which I think is unfair to men. You want to have it both ways: you want to be able to voice your apparently piggish ideas, bu you don't want women to be upset by it or to hold you accountable. Sorry, Bub, that's not the way it works. Have the guts to stand by what you say or keep it to yourself and stop sulking.

[daveskilt]

52. well said all around

[furrylitldevil]

57. Finally!

Someone who has something to say!

1. At least we partially agree on one thing, but ask yourself why a cliche becomes a cliche.

2. That's not the point, the point is women are automatically suspicious of someone complimenting them. I can not appreciate women in their entirety (appearance, personality, attitude, etc.) without being labeled shallow and neanderthal. Anyone else see the inherent problem here besides me? I, too am sick of the stereotype that men only care about sex and appearance, and I know that not all women are the same, but to be offended when someone of the opposite sex appreciates you, not just appearance but everything about you, tells me that something is wrong with the equation.

3. Generalizing is the best thing I do, the beauty is that it's "generally" true. Of course there are going to be differing opinions, differing attitudes and actions, but for the most part, what I've said is true for the majority.
Which ideas are piggish? Equality? Fair treatment? I want not only women to be upset, but people to be upset. Hold me accountable for the things that I do which are wrong and not the ones that are not.

[Ksec]

61. woman have always held the power

because they have the treasure we will always want and will do anything to get. My goal is to stay centered and not to worry about things I have no power over.

Happiness is being content. Im almost there after nearly 50 yrs.

[furrylitldevil]

62. You are a great example

I hope to say the same after 50 years on the planet

[Susang]

64. I'd like to suggest that you be the one to "WAKE UP!"

Women do NOT run the country, no matter what you may think you see on television, which is not exactly known for its accurate dipictions of society.

My husband is a comedy writer, and believe it or not, but 90% of sitcoms are created and written by men. Think about who the stereotype of the dumb ape of a male animal actually benefits, then get back to me. Hint: it's not the woman.

You know what? Men and women are different. So are women and women. No two people are alike, and your efforts to define yourself solely based on gender are going to result in isolation and bitterness if you ride this train 'til the end of the line. The idea that you are allowing yourself to be socially castrated sounds somewhat paranoid to the casual observer.

If you're feeling so threatened by women, I'd have to guess there was something more going on than just "society". So, you can either slink off into a corner and read your tattered copy of Fight Club one more time, or you can actually enter the dialogue and say something meaningful. Remember...you only have to apologize for your penis if its done something bad.

[furrylitldevil]

88. The best thing about generalizing

is that it's not true for everybody, I never said that it was. Certainly there are different people with different attitudes and actions, but the beauty about the generalization is that it's "generally" true.

This entire thread is a microcosm of real examples for what I'm trying to say. Whenever a man tries to speak up about something wrong in the field of relationships, or points out an imbalance in power, he is given one of three arguments:

1. Suck it up, that's life, take it like a man.

2. If you're so threatened/afraid, no wonder you feel this way.

3. Women have been and are currently oppressed, and you have the nerve to say something bad about them?!?

Well in response:

1. I'm tired of just accepting this as true, I expect better of both genders, not just women, and not just men.

2. Who ever said I was threatened? Just because a man finally says something that women wish to ignore, he's all of a sudden insecure, isn't that ironic?

3. I have said numerous times that I want equality. Two wrongs don't make a right and yes, it is terrible that in the past and present, women are subject to oppression, but not all men are oppressors just as all women are not oppressed.

[Susang]

107. Buddy, I give up on you

You seem to entrenched in your male entitlement so deeply that nobody's gonna drag you out. You don't want equality, you want things the way you want them. You want women to like it when you compliment them, not argue with you so you won't be afraid to speak around them and not have to be responsible for women's oppression.

Listen, you're the one who said he apologizes for his penis 24/7. That screams insecurity to me. Personally, I love my vagina. I would never apologize for it, no matter what any man said. If you can't see how seriously angry you are at women, then you are deluded and should seek professional help immediately.

Here's a handy tip to remember when things get a little too confusing, you do not equal all men, no matter how much you may think you do. When someone speaks of "men" or "man" they are not talking about you personally - really, I swear! You're off the hook, you didn't do it. They're speaking of a societal abstract, not an individual, so you don't have to worry. Nobody's blaming you!

[daveskilt]

108. but once you disagree you are "not listening to him"

Or you are one of those angry women (or feminazis as his uncle rush would call them) that he can automatically dismiss. I just cant believe it took me so long to use the ignore on this one. teenage angst isnt something that can be convinced only grown out of.

There is a growing inability to dialogue. automatic naysaying rather than actually arguing a point is too common. There is also a lack of critical thinking skills apparent in many posts now.


PS. I'm a bloke and I like my willy! no apologies for my wee fella.

[LastKnight]

65. you sir, have balls. i salute you!

you are treading where the rest of us dare not go. im tired of being held responsible for social standards i had no part in creating. and i end up just agreeing so i can avoid a fight weather it be with a female friend, a girlfriend, or a stranger, its just not worth the fight. remember ladies, its not necessarily the fact that your right that makes us give up, its just the fact that we dont like the fight, and it doesnt really matter to us in most cases, the small crap anyway. so ladies, stop acting like your being persecuted, your really, not on as large a scale as you portray, lighten up, if a guy pays you a compliment, dont press sexual harrassment charges. you wonder why your never commented in public anymore, its not because we are insensitive its because were afraid of legal action of one of you overreacting.

peace

time to strap on the flame retardant pants

-LK

[furrylitldevil]

66. Thank you sir

I'll try to keep fighting the good fight.

[daveskilt]

68. did you really just say sexual harrasment is women overreacting

wow. I think I fell through a wormhole and I'm really in freeperville and not DU.

[LastKnight]

70. DONT bend and twist my words.

over a simple compliment? sure alot of people wouldnt press charges but people have. what would you call it? i would call it overreacting. thier are lines to be drawn, and one compliment here or there does not cross any of those lines.

i hate it when people put words in my mouth, maybe i could have stated my intent better but DONT speak for me, people puting words in other people's mouths. now thats very freeperish.

-LK

[daveskilt]

79. easy fella - not putting words in your mouth

"lighten up, if a guy pays you a compliment, dont press sexual harrassment charges. you wonder why your never commented in public anymore, its not because we are insensitive its because were afraid of legal action of one of you overreacting."

Apologies, I guess I read it differently than you meant it (I hope so anyway) - but it sure smells like a freeper post.

Incidently I have fired people for paying "compliments" to women. ("nice ass bitch" , "man would I like to do you" , or one guy who just wouldnt piss off and kept telling her she was beautiful - they all used the overreacting women defense for their simple compliments - I fired them anyway)

[LastKnight]

82. well i agree there...

those mentioned in your post are going over the line. those werent the kind of compliments i was talking about

and i did get a little worked up there. calling me a freeper is one of my major buttons to push.

-LK

[daveskilt]

87. belittling sexual harrasment is one of my hot buttons

the problem is communications 101. message sent NEVER equals message received (not entirely anyway) All of those guys really truly believed that they were complimenting the women and were being punished for overreacting women. they could not see that their advances were unwelcome and it really was just hating women without even really realizing it - like the guy I have on ignore who started this thread.

sorry to call you a freeper - Im sure you didnt mean it the way it read - but post the same message on freep and see how many agree with you there.

[furrylitldevil]

71. No one said that

I believe what LK was trying to say was that men today are afraid of their own shadow when it comes to interacting with women that they don't know. Believe me, I know probably better than most the devastating effects that unwanted sexual advances and rape can have on someone and I won't stand for anyone belittling the subject, but the sexual harassment comment was intended to blow the example out of proportion, kind of like saying "I would shake your hand but I don't want to catch a disease." Where the actual chance of catching a disease would be unlikely. "I would compliment your cute elbows, but I don't want a sexual harassment charge."

[LastKnight]

73. exactly nt

[Susang]

76. And I quote:

"lighten up, if a guy pays you a compliment, dont press sexual harrassment charges. you wonder why your never commented in public anymore, its not because we are insensitive its because were afraid of legal action of one of you overreacting. "

At the very least that was a very poorly stated way of making his point.

[LastKnight]

80. do you press charges on a compliment?

i didnt say leering, drooling, overt sexual advancements, i said 'A COMPLIMENT' this is the exact overreaction im talking about!

damn, and you guys complain about us not listening

-LK

[Susang]

72. This is Bizzaro-DU

Not the DU I've known for the past three years. The times really are a-changin'. :-(

[LastKnight]

75. did you even read what i posted?

i didnt say all sexual harrassment suits were that, just some have gotten outta hand.

-LK

[Susang]

77. And I quoth again:

"lighten up, if a guy pays you a compliment, dont press sexual harrassment charges. you wonder why your never commented in public anymore, its not because we are insensitive its because were afraid of legal action of one of you overreacting. "

Yes, I read what you wrote and found it reprehensible. So sue me.

[LastKnight]

81. unless 'a compliment' means something different to you...

... than it does me... i still dont see where your getting your arguement, if you get a new haircut, and a guy compliments your new haircut, are you offended?

stop twisting and bending my words

-LK

[Susang]

83. You really have no idea how offensive your post is, do you?

It has nothing to do with whatever your "compliment" might have been. It has to do with your presumption that women are randomly lodging sexual harrassment lawsuits against men over trivial compliments paid to them by unwitting suitors.

There is no twisting or bending here, except for poor logic and she's really sick of the contortions you're putting her through.

[LastKnight]

86. believe it or not there ARE frivolous lawsuits out there *GASP*

I'm not saying all of them are, not by a long shot, I'm just saying that there are some that really aren't warranted. and people always hear about the frivolous ones and are intimidated by them.

-LK

[Susang]

101. On the other hand

Let me tell you about all the unreported incidents of "compliments" I, and many of my fellow women, have endured in our lifetimes, before lawsuits were even a possibility. Perhaps you are too young to remember when there was no recourse when your boss demanded sexual favors, or your co-workers could say whatever the hell they wanted to and there was nothing you could do about it, but I'm not. And I'm not even that old!

I don't really care all that much that people are intimated by the few frivolous lawsuits in comparison to what used to be normal workplace life for the average woman. I've kept a journal since I started working and if I were to share some of the entries related to this topic, you'd be shocked at what some men used to be able to do with no repercussions. Not all men obviously, but enough to cause these laws to be enacted in the first place. I've been physically assaulted, verbally harassed, had to work amidst hard core pornography, incidents I can't even begin to go into. So when you suggest that sexual harassment is overreaction to compliments, to me, that sounds like the most ludicrous thing in the world.

[LastKnight]

105. yet again, thats not what i said

there are lines that do get crossed yes, and i dont mind legal action when one is crossed, infact in encourage it, when its harmless though?

i know somone who lost a job (somehow) to it by NOT talking to a woman at his workplace, he wasnt avoiding her, but also wasnt going out of his way to talk to her. she was overweight and she apparently interperted it as some sort of physical descrimination, the lawsuit never stuck but he still lost his job due to overcautious employers, and the fact is he is just a quiet guy, and had nothing against her in the first place.

whatever, im done arguing, back to one of my original points, its just not that big of a deal to me, so at this point i say 'yes of course, im a man so i must be wrong' and bow out... i bid all good night and no ill will.

-LK

[furrylitldevil]

106. By the way

"so at this point i say 'yes of course, im a man so i must be wrong' and bow out... i bid all good night and no ill will."

If that doesn't illustrate the point, I don't know what will.

[daveskilt]

84. of course the definition of compliment is subjective

and maybe the bloke is a truly noble soul whose compliments are entirely above reproach and are merely misconstrued by women as lecherous, lascivious, lewd and harrasing. I'm not making fun of anyone here. I really mean this, the intent may be different but despite intent if the guy doesnt get it when he hears piss off no matter what he thinks his compliments are they are harrassing if he doesnt bugger off forthwith.

location matters too. in a bar fine. at work, just dont try it because I will fire you blokes.

also why is it that all the freeper smelling posts here assume their detractors are all women? There is some serious teenage women hating angst fuelling this methinks.

[LastKnight]

i try not to assume... but

i may place an incorrect pronoun here or there in the heat of arguement.

-LK

[Susang]

90. A free copy of Fight Club for all my DU friends!

I always thought that novel had a great concept. Get the testosterone fueled anger out by beating the crap out of each other once or twice a week, no chicks allowed. Written by a white guy, so it has to be good! ;-)

[furrylitldevil]

91. A free copy of "Waiting to Exhale" to all the women out there

A tale of female empowerment, written by a woman so it has to be good! ;-)

[EV1Ltimm]

95. i gotta be honest with you...

when that movie came out, for about 6 months afterwards, every girlfriend i had (all 2 of them) would let out a deep breath and say "i exhaled!". My response would be the "Oh really? you don't do that several hundred times a day like myself?" and then i'd feel guilty and she'd break up with me for being a weenie.

[Susang]

103. No, not really

Try "The Lives and Loves of a She-Devil" by Fay Weldon instead.

[LastKnight]

93. as a side note...

i wish no ill will to anyone on this thread... if anyone out there finds my posts offensive, well, i guess i didnt state myself clearly, as my intent is not to offend.

peace

-LK

[furrylitldevil]

96. You know I tried that

and people still got offended.

It states clearly at the top that this was not ment to offend, it is a rant, pointless and unimportant as all the other ones.

[LastKnight]

98. cant hurt i figure... nt

[Djinn]

74. yeah it must really suck to be a bloke

this argument always reminds me of the Simpsons ep where Lisa is complaining that no-one listens to her coz she's young, Grandpa's comlpaining that no-one listens coz he's old, Homer comes in with

"I'm a male, aged 18-49 and everybody listens to me"

sorry no sympathy :nopity: - and plenty of women know how to take a compliment IF it's given in the right way, it's not hard just don't leer or drool or comment on the appearance of complete strangers.

[furrylitldevil]

78. That Simpson's episode is hi-larious

I couldn't stop laughing for ten minuets after I heard that joke.

But seriously...

"plenty of women know how to take a compliment IF it's given in the right way, it's not hard just don't leer or drool or comment on the appearance of complete strangers. "

It is that kind of statement that I'm talking about. Everyone assumes that if a comment is payed to a woman that the one paying must be some apelike dunderhead who can't keep his jaw from droping or drool from flowing out of his mouth...now ask yourself, why is that?

[Djinn]

109. I don't think that at all

it's an assumption I made based on you saying you've found it to be difficult - if we ever meet and you say "nice hair/eyes/smile/elbow" whatever I'll either get all embarrassed and deflect it coz it's a bad habit I have when complimented, or if I'm having a less mental day I'll just say "thank-you"

[EV1Ltimm]

85. god dammit ed!

EOM!!!!

[furrylitldevil]

89. You know me,

I like to stir the pot.

How can anything get done through civil debate? It's only when someone is good and mad that you get the best argument out of them

[EV1Ltimm]

92. i find waving the gun around gets things done pretty quick too...

by "waving the" i mean "kissing"... and by "gun around" i mean "ass".

[furrylitldevil]

94. Mmmmm...ass

Sorry man, but I've been kissing ass for most of my adult life, I'm putting on some blistex and taking off the kneepads and besides, one of the premises is that I shouldn't have to kiss ass if the situation isn't called for it

[EV1Ltimm]

97. nonsense.

snap out of it, man.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EV1Ltimm]

100. ix-nay on the "ynocracy-gay"

(for the love of god man, i'm married! trust me!)

[furrylitldevil]

102. That's a badass Bushpic by the way

and it is time to destroy this thread, I brought it to life, so I can take it away just as easily by leaving. Give princessjesse my best.

[MI Cherie]

104. The more things change ...

... the more they stay the same!

1. You watch too much TV! Change the channel occasionally! Most sitcom writers are male. Perhaps they are writing their fantasies or their fears. Who knows? Cliches continue because people find them funny or stupid and they find someone more stupid than themselves funny!

2. Some men do not know how to give a "proper" compliment. Some women do not know how to accept any compliment. "Thank you" is an acceptable response to almost any compliment. Some people find even that hard to say. Perhaps "Hello" should be uttered prior to any compliment.

3. If everyone in this world were the same, if everyone liked the same thing, this would be a very boring world.

:)

[Seldona]

110. I like to eat, sleep, drink, and screw.

Not necessarily in that order.

And I would NEVER apologize for that.

And neither should you.

Like Carlin says, we are going through the pussifacation of the American male.

No thanks. Embrace your manhood.

Screw what anyone else thinks.

[Nikia]

111. My opinion

1. As somone said before, television is written and produced mostly by men. This stereotype portrayed is bad for both men and women, probably worse for women. Women on these shows may be smart, attractive, and responsible but why do they have to take care of men who their inferiors on these qulaiites? That seems a bit oppressive, don't you think?
2. Be sure that you say other things to women besides comments about her appearance. For example, I had a guy at work tell me that I really turned him on and he really enjoyed looking at me everyday. Besides an occaisional "hi", he had never said anything to me at all. This really freaked me out. Also while you may be insecure about complimenting women because they might take the compliment the wrong way, I sometimes feel insecure going running in normal warm weather running apparel or walking on a busy street on a summer evening because I am greeted by passerbys by "compliments" every few minutes. Your female aquaintances might have had the same experiences so understand why this might freak them out.
3. Also, many women do feel insecure about their own bodies because female beauty is so emphasized in the media. Since most of us do not look like models, some of us think that means that we aren't really beautiful. Your aquaintances may not believe you when you compliment them.
4.Perhaps, we should encourage friendships more in this society. One person cannot be everything for another person. You may not be able to meet all of a potential girlfriend's emotional needs, nor should you have to. If you find yourself in a relationship, be sure to encourage her to continue cultivating those relationships even if it means that she will want to spend time with some of those friends away from you.
5. The whole who is smarter thing. In the conservative place where I live, everyone seems to assume that men are smarter than women. At my workplace, a manufacturing setting, everyone seems ticked off when a woman is promoted based on her merits because it had been assumed in the past that the position would automatically go to a man, then the most senior woman if no man wanted the job. I read a book a few years back (which I don't remember because I was reading several books per week that summer) that said that men are always initially assumed to be more competent than women except at "feminine" type tasks such as cleaning, sewings, and childcare. I suppose that some might assume that women are more competent at relationships, but for most tasks that matter in the outside world, men are considered smarter. Go with your best female friend to buy a car or lawn appliance. Who does the salesperson talk to?
6. I hope that I don't come off too antimale in this post. I love my husband and I have several male friends. I don't like being confrontational with those who I love because I am too empathetic that way. I probably say "Yes dear," to my husband more than he does to me. I suppose that in a relationship, both parties need to respect each other more and not take advantage of the other person if that person is generally nonconfronatatioanl.

[KG]

112. LOL!

'perpetual apology for my penis' snorf! :D

heh, after a tuff evening in GD i needed a good chuckle.

hope you get things worked out...

[wickerwoman]

113. I appreciate your honesty, but you're mistaken on several points.

a.) The expressions "if women ran the country there would be no problems" and "women are smarter than men" pisses me off too (as a woman) because I see them as both demonstrably wrong and counter-productive. Most reasonable women would not argue either of these points seriously. On the other hand, if you think women are running the country now, your eyes are shut. Women are a tiny minority of politicians, judges, and pretty much every other position of real power. Of the Fortune 500 companies something like 5 have female CEOs. Men were portrayed as dunces on TV long before feminism. It's actually a way to escape responsibility- pretend men are simply sucky at doing dishes and laundry and cleaning and looking after kids (except for the fun stuff) and they won't be asked to do things they don't want to do anyway. Or they can argue that it's genetics and not irresponsibility.
b.) Many, many, many girls have tiny self-esteems from being raised in a culture that tells them they are fat if they aren't Kate Moss, ugly if they aren't Cindy Crawford, and a failure if they don't fit into a size two dress. Even when their parents don't actively promote sexism, women hear from an early age that their sisters in China are drowned and that for centuries they were property. They honestly don't believe that they are beautiful and if you tell them they are they will immediately assume you want something from them. I'm sorry if this is an inconvenience to you, but I think the greater tragedy is the enormous number of women with no real sense of self-worth or self-confidence.
c.) I'm not sure what you mean when you say "stop trying to make me your best girlfriend." Do you mean stop telling me things about your day and expecting me to be interested? Stop asking me to be sympathetic when you're having a lousy day? Stop wanted to spend time with me? How else can you be in a serious relationship with someone? You say you want a rewarding, monogamous, fulfilling relationship but it sounds like you don't want any of the sticky emotional attachment or connection that comes with it. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that and it's not the women who are your real obstacle. Yes men are conditioned to want different things from women but when we can recognize that that conditioning is harmful to both men and women we can fight against it together. The fact is that many men and boys are emotionally stunted as a result of conditioning that asks them to be contemptuous of women (and of themselves) if they want to be a "real" man. I have enormous sympathy for men, but I know from experience that when they are open-minded and fight the conditioning that their lives are better for it.
And don't blame male passivity on shrieking harpy women. "Letting the little woman have her way" was around a long time before feminism and is just as patronizing as always. Read some Victorian novels if you don't believe me.
You are letting some careful culled quotations from extremists push you into excessive defensiveness.

[furrylitldevil]

115. Finally, FINALLY

Someone gets the point! I do appreciate yours an Nikia's posts and the fact that neither one of you resulted to the lowest common dominator on the subject. All I was ever looking for was a recognition of the problems, and yes, there are more than one. I guess what irritated me for so long was that most men know there is now has has been objectification of women, and most men know it is wrong and wish to fix it. What I had the problem with was that women never seem to want to talk about the other side of the coin and address the problems that place men unequally with women. As this whole topic has shown, most often the attention is not payed to that subject, only deflected into areas unrelated. I want both sides to acknowledge their own problems because that's the first step into fixing them, and I believe that (in general) men have done this and women have not.

I know there will be at least someone out there who takes issue with either my generalization or my assumption and that's fine, I can't do anything to stop it, but before you go raving about my own personal insecurities or fears or whatever, read that first paragraph again and ask yourself, if I am not some backwoods matriarch Jethro with a computer, if I really don't have these gigantic ego problems, (either too big or too small) and if I don't want things to go back the way they were before the civil rights revolution, why would I say these things? Let's assume (and just assume) that I am not some woman hating/fearing neanderthal here for just one second, then give me your response.

[wickerwoman]

118. I don't think you're a woman hating neandrathal

and I do give you credit for recognizing the historic oppression of women. And I don't think I was raving about anything. But you still haven't explained what you meant when you said "Don't try to make me your best girlfriend." Honestly- the sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Also, can you say more specifically what problems you feel women need to fix but haven't? This statement also seems to imply that men have solved all their problems- you don't honestly think that's true do you?

My take- the word misogyny is used unconstructively by many women. Men hear "women hater" and know it isn't true and then the person making the accusation is discredited. On the other hand, casual contempt for women is deeply, deeply engrained in our cultural conditioning and even when you don't hate women consciously, the contempt can come through subconsciously. It comes through in your desire not to be made a "girlfriend". It is that contempt that women are reacting against when they start throwing around the term "misogynist".

So anyway, I give you credit for honesty again and I think that's a huge step. So many men don't even want to talk about gender issues- assuming women are incapable of talking about the subject without becoming shreiking, castrating feminazis. That in itself shows more of the contempt I was talking about, and I appreciate that you are willing to talk honestly about your ideas.

[furrylitldevil]

119. I think what I was talking about

Is this strange phenomenon women seem to have about trying to change men once they are in a relationship with them. There's a joke that goes "men marry women expecting them not to change and they do, women marry men expecting them to change and they don't." When I'm in a relationship with someone, I fully love them and support them to the extent that I am capable, but I am not capable of much in the emotional support department. If a girlfriend comes to me with a probelm, my first instinct is to try to fix it, it's nothing personal, it's just how I'm wired. More often than not, though, she wants me to support her as she tries to emotionally digest the problem, and I have no idea how to do that. She gets mad at me for not knowing what she wants me to do, I get mad at her for getting mad at me just because I want to help her with a problem, and everyone's mad. If you want someone to sympathize with you, call a girlfriend, nine times out of ten they will be of much more help than I will, and trying to change me into that will only hurt the relationship.

[wickerwoman]

120. Ah, I get the problem.

Really she just wants you to listen and offer help but not impose it.

The thing is that women get pushed around and told they can't do things a lot and it gets on their nerves. Sometimes they just want to vent (like you're with this thread) without someone pushing them out of the way to "solve" the problems implying that they can't do it themselves. Isn't it annoying when someone takes your venting too seriously and then proceeds to explain how "easy" it is to fix the problem? Or worse yet, takes over the problem and can't solve it and starts swearing and fighting with everyone and making a much bigger deal out of it than you intended and then gets pissed off at you when you want to drop the matter entirely.

I actually don't believe that men and women are hard wired that differently. I think we are conditioned quite differently and our language is applied very differently to the same behavior in men and women (for example, stoicism in a man is passive-aggression in a women, assertiveness in a man is bitchiness in a woman.) I think men are as capable of sympathy as women are (all you have to do is imagine you were in the same situation) but that many refuse to try on the grounds that their friends will say they're a "pussy" or a "fag". Unfortunately there are women who perpetuate this (they have received the same destructive conditioning from the dominant culture as men have.) Anyway, empathy takes practice (even for women- many never learn it) and it's the unwillingness to even try- usually accompanied by the excuse that women are just insane, or impossibly mysterious, or have PMS- that gets many women so frustrated.

[Pithlet]

116. You're on to us.

Uh oh. The Gynocracy is in danger, and my cushy position within it as well. Soon, there will be no place safe on the internet for man-hating gynocrats who don't know how to take a compliment. Damn.

[CanuckAmok]

117. Personally I fee that in this era, the 'war bewtween the sexes'...

...for lack of a better term, is engineered to keep "us", that is to say individuals with very little power, from forming a united front.

It's an old tactic. Female versus male. White versus black. Catholic versus Protestant. Christian versus secular. The West versus Islam. We battle and battle, meanwhile we lose what little power we have, because we don't work together.

I am a white male, aged 36. It's arguable that I have had certain advantages in life. It's also arguable that I have had no advantages in life. I am relatively poor. Martha Stewart is relatively rich.

But the end result is that, despite my best efforts, and despite being part of the percieved overclass cabal of white male-dom, I am a wage-slave, like the rest of you. I tried and tried to become the CEO of a multinational, and failed, despite my pale penis.

Furthermore, I am in a field governed by union rates which guarantee the same pay structure to women and men (rightly so), and, for the record, my department is 60% female.

Of course, women have had a bum deal, historically. I can't apologise for that, because it wasn't my fault. I'll hire a woman just as readily as I'll hire a man. What else can I do, as an individual, to level the playing field? Will I vote for a female candidate who's platform I don't agree with, just to set a precident of women in government? No, of course not.

No, there has never been a woman President. So what? The majority of eligable American voters are female (as is a majority of the world's population), so if women collectively thought someone who was a woman would make a better president solely on the basis of her gender, they could have nominated/voted her in.

There will be a woman president, probably within our lifetimes. Maybe it'll be Hillary Clinton (I hope so), maybe it'll be Condoleeza Rice (that pillar of feminism). Basically, it doesn't matter to you and me. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, but with sensible pumps and an antique string of pearls instead of a Yale Club tie.

Basically, the middle class spends so much time bitching about gender issues, we don't notice that we're being slowly reduced to serfdom, by a tiny ruling class we could eliminate if we worked together.