DU Christians Check Into This Safe Haven

[Red State Rebel]

It's a rough place to be a Christian here at DU. I try not to get too discouraged - I don't want to end up leaving someplace I have enjoyed so much.

It seems the Passion of Christ has brought people out full force against us. I've gotten to the point where I hide threads with Passion in the subject line. I can't believe that people who share so many beliefs with me, who are compassionate and caring to those who are different and those who suffer think nothing of attacking my personal religious beliefs.

I don't want this to be a flamefest, I want this to be a place for those of us with Christian beliefs to stand up and be counted.

I can only hope if we express our hurt at these attacks maybe some people will see how we feel and come to understand how wrong it is to say some of the things that have been said.

[alcuno]

1. I am a Catholic and I have a question.

And I don't label myself as a Christian. My question deals with the movie "The Passion," which I have not seen. I just heard the Rev. Graham talking about how the film closely followed the Gospels. Apparently, there is a scene or scenes in the movie where Pilate's wife is involved. I went back through the Gospels and can find no reference to Pilate's wife. Can someone tell me where she is in the Gospels? Thanks.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

2. I don't know for sure. The movie follows the book of John

closely...

[alcuno]

7. I just read John again, and I don't see a word about Pilate's wife.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. Don't recall, but there's an incident in one of the Gospels

in which Pilate's wife dreams that bad things will happen if Jesus is put to death.

[alcuno]

10. Found it.

Thanks. It's in Matthew 27:19.

[Red State Rebel]

9. Here is what I found...

Matthew 27:19: "While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, 'Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him' " (NKJV).

I haven't seen the movie yet, that wasn't what this thread is about, so I'm not sure what kind of artistic license was taken with this character.

[Mick Knox]

44. He combined all 4 IMO

As referenced in the replies .. some John.. some Mat .. The Herod conversation is Luke..

[donotpassgo]

53. Combining Gospels is a BIG Catholic no no

n/t

[brokensymmetry]

3. Good idea.

We don't speak badly of their beliefs - why should they feel obligated to treat ours with disrespect?

[everythingsxen]

8. Well being one who generally disrespects Christian beliefs...

I will give you an apology.

Sorry.

I personally have gotten sick of all the Passion threads though. That really brings out my venomous rage.

Typically though I ignore the threads about your beliefs and whatnot; I have no problem with your beliefs, I simply find that typical Christian following of those beliefs is the direct opposite of the teachings.

Again; I apologize for rudeness to any of you and your faith...

more....
However you know your religion does have a long history of committing some of the most heinous crimes.

[brokensymmetry]

15. A question...

Seriously. Are Christians any worse about following our stated beliefs than are other groups?

We're all people, and it seems to be pretty normal to fall short of our aspirations. I know that I'm at least as fallible as anyone - but it seems to me that having a challenging goal isn't a bad thing.

[everythingsxen]

18. For me..

again this is only for me;

I have serious problems with the religion on so many levels. The majority of which are historical. However right now, today, your fellow christians are proudly declaring God's peace and love by saying "Jews killed Christ" and "Kill all them queers".

Obviously it is not all Christians who act this way, just the loudest most obnoxious ones. Rarely though do I hear any dissent from the majority of Christains though. In general. Here of course I know you guys are usually a little more level headed and not so.. um.. in a word? psycho. :D

Are you worse? Yes; historically speaking.

As far as modern times.. well... I will tell you this much. I have never had a pagan, jew, hindu or muslim tell me that if I fail to worhip their religion I will be damned to eternal hellfire and continue to hound me for an entire bus ride.

[southerngirlwriter]

23. corporate responsibility is a tricky notion.

I have never had my apartment robbed by a white person.

Does that mean that all persons who share the same skin color as the guys who robbed me must apologize? Must they all feel bad for what "their" people have done?

I have never been sexually assaulted by a woman.

Are all men responsible for that? Do YOU, simply because you're a man, owe me an apology for what your "brothers" have done?

I don't think so. I think we're all individuals.

I wish that all people who call themselves Christians behaved much better than many of them do.

I'm not responsible for the pain that the assholes have caused you.

Do you not think it would be a better world if everyone tried to behave as much like Jesus -- to do what He said -- as they could?

Personally, I'd LIKE that world.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying that I'm no more responsible for what other Christians do than you are for what other men do. :shrug:

[everythingsxen]

31. I was simply answering brokensymmetry's question...

it was a broad question, so I answered broadly.

While I see what you are saying SGW; it is not quite the same as race or sex issues. The atrocities carried out under the banner of Christianity would make a very long list.

Your religion (the whole organized thing of it) seems to have a tendency to get hijacked easily and be used to commit some truly vile and repugnant acts.

That is where much of my anger wells up regarding Christianity.

I didn't post initially to debate the issue with you folks; I really was just apologizing for usually deriding your religion (on the whole); in looking back though, my comments did contain minor digs, so I apologize for that. If any "holy warriors" *giggle* want to spar we can do so in PM's or start another thread. (That wasn't intended as a dig, insult, jab or snipe, it was a jest, no more no less, implying anyone who wanted to "fight" as it were was free to do so)

[regnaD kciN]

51. That's only because...

Your religion (the whole organized thing of it) seems to have a tendency to get hijacked easily and be used to commit some truly vile and repugnant acts.

...Christianity, long ago, became the "official" religion for the Roman empire and thus, after the empire's demise, for most of the powerful nations in the world.

My experience has been that, whenever religious beliefs and nationalism/patriotism/tribalism come into conflict, it is generally the religious values that bite the dust. So it was after Constantine's conversion...for example, while Christianity forbade its followers (on pain of excommunication!) from participating in war before it became the "state religion," it wasn't too long afterwards that it became one's "Christian duty" to serve in the Roman army and fight against the "heathen."

:eyes:

I firmly believe that, had any other religion been the one adopted by Constantine, a) it would now be the dominant religion throughout Europe and the Americas and b) it would now be blamed for having a list of atrocities and "vile and repugnant acts" unparalleled in history.

Generally speaking, the faiths that have been most notable for keeping true to their values have been the ones that have never held political power.

[Lost in GA]

88. I agree

As a Hindu, I agree with JDW's last line. Political power corrupts religion even quicker than people do. I say this in context of people who call themselves Hindu, since it is best to put the spotlight on your own people:
We are supposed to be non violent, yet 'Hindus' are involved in riots and killings.
We are supposed to treat every religion/Prophet/God with the same respect as we have for our own belief systems, yet we have a problem living in peace with Islam.
Followers of a religion rarely follow what the original Prophet had in mind, folks who shout out loud about their close relationship to God, are most likely motivated by completely ungodly ideas.
Its up to the quiet, spiritual folks of all religions to show that great progress can be made following any path: Hindus are probably no better or worse than followers of any other religion.
Finally, though I have spoken against right wing fundamentalists that say they follow Hinduism, since most of the people at DU must be Christian, it may be that they are expressing their unhappiness with the right wing of their religion......never to be misconstrued as anything less than total admiration and faith in its founder, Jesus.

[regnaD kciN]

49. Good point, southerngirlwriter!

As a Christian, I find it idiotic to tell a Jewish person that they are personally responsible for the death of Jesus.

I find it equally idiotic for them to tell me that, as a Christian, I (born 1956) am personally responsible for the holocaust.

:eyes:

[brokensymmetry]

28. I appreciate your candor.

I promise not to threaten you with eternal hellfire. Reruns of Gilligan's Island, maybe... (Just kidding!) :7

[chefgirl]

81. With all respect for the spirit of this topic

You wrote:

>I have never had a pagan, jew, hindu or muslim tell me that if I fail to worhip their religion I will be damned to eternal hellfire and continue to hound me for an entire bus ride.<

I would submit to you, everythingsxen, that you've never had a TRUE Christian say any of those things to you either.

I have, myself, become very angry and frustrated at times with some DUers and their particular talent for judging ALL Christians based on those idiot FUNDIES who run their mouths anytime they think they have a captive audience.

I think it would be helpful for non Christian DUers to bear in mind that the very principles we here at DU espouse are, almost invariably, the exact same principles Jesus tried to teach: caring about our fellow man, making it our business to feed the hungry, care for the sick and aged, offer the coat off your back to someone in need, etc.... I don't know about anyone else here, but that ideology is precisely what makes me a Democrat.

Please, fellow DUers, remember that those who would condemn you for not believing in their idea of God, are NOT acting in a Christian manner. As far as I'm concerned, judge me if you must, only do it based on MY behavior and not the behavior of those false Christians who probably wouldn't even recognize Christ if He were here today.

Jesus said "By their fruit you shall know them". When it comes to me or anyone else proclaiming to be a Christian, you shall know us by the fruit we bear in the service of His teachings. Those being, kindness, compassion, and a committed effort to live in imitation of Christ.

I'm sorry, I don't have my Bible in front of me, so I can't provide scripture and verse, but Jesus also told us that anyone who claims to have accepted him as their personal savior and then turns away from his teachings, has a 'special' judgement waiting for them in heaven.
I happen to believe that the current crop of FUNDIES in this country were exactly the kind of people he had in mind when he said that. Makes me smile to myself every time I think about it.

I promise to NEVER denigrate another DUers beliefs, religious or otherwise.
On behalf of many Christians here, however, I would only ask the same in return.

-chef-

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. Check out Romans 2:12-16

to see what Paul says about "righteous pagans."

Not surprisingly, this is one passage that the fundies never seem to be able to find or remember.

[regnaD kciN]

48. To answer your question...

Are Christians any worse about following our stated beliefs than are other groups?

I think so, but only because said "stated beliefs" require behavior that's a lot harder to follow than some others.

I mean, if you're an Objectivist follower of Ayn Rand, you're supposed to act based on an ethical code of "rational selfishness," and to view altruism as objectively immoral behavior. How hard is that to follow? On the other hand, loving one's enemies, turning the other cheek, and so on, aren't all that easy (and that's not even taking as universal Christ's command to the rich young man to "sell all you have and give to the poor"). When the standards require more in the way of sacrifice, it's more common for followers to be less-than-consistent about following them.

[liberalhistorian]

82. I think what he/she is referring to

is the effect the loud-mouthed sanctimonious, self-righteous, ignorant, arrogant, hypocritical, judgmental, RW wingnut nutball fascist theocratic fundies have had on our religion, because, unfortunately, that is how many non-Christians have come to see ALL Christians.

They need to know that we're not all like that, that there are plenty of us who are progressive and liberal and do NOT want to shove our beliefs down everyone else's throat and turn the country into a theocratic dictatorship. They need to know that there are plenty of us following our religion every day by helping others no matter who they are or what they've done, and not expecting and demanding that everyone else believe the same way we do.

[southerngirlwriter]

86. Sweetheart, they DO know.

No straight person on this board has been more supportive of GLBT rights than I have. Others who have posted about their Christianity in this thread are equally vocal about their support of all things progressive.

They just don't want us in what they consider to be, and I am coming to see more and more myself, as "THEIR" party.

As a place for liberals, DU should be the epitome of the Big Tent. It isn't. Christians are not welcome here. This thread is proof.

Imagine if someone has posted a thread about anything else --

"Women who've had abortions, check in to this safe haven."

"Vegans, check into this safe haven."

Would the thread have immediately been hijacked and overrun with the kind of vitriol this one was? Not a chance.

I am self-flaggellating because of how foolish I've been for the last six months, kidding myself that my liberalism would make me welcome here. I'm not.

As represented by DUers, the Democratic party does not want me.

Life's a bitch, eh?

[AmyStrange]

16. It's organized religion I don't care for...

but if I myself had ever said anything against anyone's religion here, I apologize also.


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

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[Philosophy]

27. Why do beliefs deserve respect?

There's a point where political correctness become pandering to willful ignorance.

[brokensymmetry]

30. Hmm?

Ahh, but what, exactly, is this "willful ignorance" to which you refer? A certain Dr. Unwin has calculated the probability of God at 67%. You can view the link at http://www.stephenunwin.com/

By the way, he has a doctorate in theoretical physics from the University of Manchester.

[AmyStrange]

38. True...

I may not believe in the God that everyone else believes in, but not believe in some kind of universal force is like not believing in gravity - but that's just my opinion,

d

[Philosophy]

39. So have you read the book?

Or do you just believe him because he has a doctorate and he believes what you want to believe is true. If that is your basis for believing him, that is rather ironic, because his entire analysis is fundamentally flawed because of similar a priori assumptions that he makes:

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/Shermer/E-Skeptic/ProbabilityofGod.html

[Skittles]

46. I think you just proved his point

:)

[AmyStrange]

43. you make a good point...

but just don't forget that the label "willful ignorance" is a subjective term and can apply to anyone - including you and me - depending upon the lebelers point of view.

In short, you may think the other person is "willfully ignorant", but what if it's you or me. When does the political correctness become pandering then?

No insult intended in any way,

d

[liberalhistorian]

85. Using that logic, even

agnostics and atheists wouldn't deserve any respect, because lack of belief is STILL a belief system whether you want to admit it or not.

[southerngirlwriter]

5. I'm a Christian.

Last year, I tried posting some Scriptural ammo for people, explaining some of the many issues on which the Bible backs up the liberal position. Many people were kind and gracious. Many others were angry, accusing me of "SHOVING" my "superstition" into their faces (this was well after the Hide-a-thread feature became available, and I did them in the Meeting Room).

A few people asked me questions. I was stupid in how I answered them -- gave away a little too much information. Too many clues.

I experienced some real life harassment (nasty notes left on my car calling me a "fat Christian cunt" and advising me to "go to Freak Republic where you belong." I am pretty sure I know who (which poster) it was, but I can't prove it. DO NOT ASK ME WHO IT WAS; I WILL NOT ANSWER. I'd rather not tell anyone than say what I think and be wrong.

A friend of mine has family on the police force in town, and I spent most of one terrified afternoon with my friend and his family member, showing them various threads on DU, filing a report, etc.

Looooooooooooooooong story short, my friend, who has been an NRA member for years and years, taught me how to properly use and store the gun I now hate myself for owning.

It would be easier for me in many ways to be a Republican. I'm white, and although I'm struggling right now, there is an excellent chance that I'll become wealthy in the next few years. I have several extremely salable books in progress. I'm a Christian, and I'd certainly be welcomed with open arms by the GOP.

But it's not about me. It's about this country. Fuck the GOP. I'm not going anywhere.

Thanks for opening a vent-here thread. I appreciate it.

Oh, and before anyone goes and harasses Skinner, yes, I told him about what happened, but since I can't prove who I think it was, I never told him a name. I didn't want to permanently alter his opinion of another DUer falsely, in case I'm wrong about who I think it was. That would be just as unfair as the unmitigated terror I experienced when this shit happened last year.

Of course, it could also have been a DU lurker, and not a poster at all. God knows we've got enough of them after Limbaugh's DOS-provoking mentions on hate radio.

This party probably doesn't want me -- at least, the most liberal wing doesn't. That's okay. I'm not going anywhere. And I'm not even angry. Just sad.

[AmyStrange]

34. ((((HUGz))))

I hope things are going much better for you.

Personally, I've never heard of any Christian ever pulling up bible quotes to substantiate the liberal view. I'm sure there are people who have, but I've just never thought of it before. That's one list I'd like to see, but I understand why you wouldn't want to post them again.

Anyway, thanx for sharing and venting. Sometimes it feels good to vent and rant, and like Tavis Smiley says, "keep the faith",

d

[southerngirlwriter]

36. The Gospels are basically socialist tracts.

And the only people Jesus ever did bodily harm to were overaggressive capitalist types.

I don't understand how anyone who reads the Bible can be a Republican, LOL.

No, I'm not going to post them again, though. My policeman friend advised me to never come back to DU again, but I've moved since then, and even though I hate the stupid weapon, it's amazing how comforting it is to have the stupid thing.

I didn't know how I'd survive this election year without the place, so I prayed about it and decided to come back. :shrug:

[AmyStrange]

40. That's too bad...

but I understand and respect your decision,

d

[ButterflyBlood]

6. I'm a Christian

:hi:

[Burma Jones]

11. I don't take it personally

I stay non-judgmental. I know that the attacks are not against me. I let the ridicule go, it's their opinion and that's fine. If they want to attack God, well, that's their problem, but I think they are more inclined to attack religion rather than God. Some will ridicule my beliefs, so what. I realize that non-religious people are legitimately scared of this government and that their lashing out is understandable and forgivable.

I think that the anger against religion is pointed towards the enormous hypocrisy exhibited in many of our Churches. In this, I must agree with the attackers here. You will never find as much hypocrisy anywhere else.

[harrison]

12. There seems to be a certain amount of anger and ridicule here

at DU toward Christians. I certainly can't speak for the genesis of it (no pun intended), but I guess that people look at Falwell and Robertson and Ralph Reed and other fundies and that is the face of Christianity they see.

Fortunately, I have had the benefit of a three years at a divinity school and spent a good bit of time reading people such as Paul Tillich, Reinhold Nierbuhr, Frederick Buechner, among others, and I understand that there is just a whole nother Christian world out there that few people get to see.

That world is full of intellectual honesty. It rejects literalism and understands that science discovers, but religion interprets.

That world understands that it is no sin to doubt, and even the strongest believer undergoes the dark night of the soul and finds times when they don't believe.

However, this is not the world that is presented on CNN. Maybe it isn't sexy enough. I don't know.

But it is worth remembering that Jesus, in my humble opinion, wasn't a religious man. He fought against religiosity. He fought against religious tyranny. He proclaimed liberty for the captives and sight for the blind.

By the way, there are people who call themselves Christians who don't believe in the resurrection. Check out Gerd Luedemann, a German theologian.

So, I am not saying people are misinformed, but I only wish that the "other" Christianity featuring people such as Tillich and Niebuhr could get a little play.

[blondeatlast]

13. Indeed, they do HURT, but DU is not that bad of a place.

I'm a battle scarred vet of the God wars and there are a handful of posters who couldn't care less about others feelings. But most of the "anti"-Christians here seem to have just as strong of beliefs as I do.

They've been hurt as well, in may instances.

Be respectful and "Ignore" if necessary. But please, let's not start feeling sorry for ourselves.

[bhunt70]

14. I'm not religious at all, but I offer encouragement to you.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

17. It's amazing that while Christians comprise 80% of the American

population, they keep crying about how they are so abused and maligned.

[ALago1]

21. That was unnecessary

The original poster created this thread to discuss something with other Christians, and specifically asked for those who dismiss their beliefs to please stay away.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. I'm not dissing the poster or a religion...

Just an observation.

[harrison]

22. But I am not sure that Christians comprise 80% of DU. Be that

as it may, the history of Christendom is replete with more abusers than abusees. No question there.

[blondeatlast]

60. Not even close to 80%. This may be the one place we are in the

minority.

[Philosophy]

29. Exactly

So asking someone to rationally defend their faith becomes an "attack"

[southerngirlwriter]

35. No sir,

the attack is that in a thread -- ONE thread in a message board of tens of thousands of threads, that a poster respectfully asked to be a "safe haven," the first post disrespecting those very reasonable wishes came within minutes.

THAT is the attack.

[Philosophy]

41. So was the original post a prophecy?

SaidFred claimed he was attacked there, but you say the attack he referred to came after that.

It's a miracle!

[Red State Rebel]

80. No, but I would say it now has qualified as flame bait....

Unfortunately

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

91. An attack????

I wrote: "It's amazing that while Christians comprise 80% of the American population, they keep crying about how they are so abused and maligned."

That is not an attack by any means even to the thin skinned.

It is simply an observation.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

19. I'm a Christian.

I'm a relatively conservative episcopalian religously, and a rather liberal democrat politically.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

20. Christian here. No offense taken. This is the wonderful thing about

the America, for which I bled, that people can share some beliefs and be bitter adversaries on others. There are some things (although getting fewer and fewer now with neocons) with which I can agree with the right. There are things I hate about the right.
Some leftist ideas are great to me. And there are some that are just blather.
I have looked at other belief systems. None of them work for me as well as Christianity... well, Islam almost does it, but not quite... to me, Christ and His REAL Message, i.e. the way He lived and worked, serving, not being served. Poor, but not destitute or hopeless.
Those are the pearls of wisdom in Christianity.

[harrison]

24. As someone put it, Christianity must have a marvelously inherent

power, else the churches would have killed it long ago.

[blondeatlast]

61. Amen! nt

[scarlet_owl]

26. I'm a Christian.

And I'm tired of being lumped in with all the nutjobs like Jerry Falwell and the like. I'm also tired of my beliefs being called "superstition" or "bullshit". I would NEVER call anyone else's belief system "superstition". I want to make one thing very clear: Not all Christians are intolerant, hateful fundamentalists. Most of us take the teachings of Christ very seriously and do our best to love our neighbors and to be charitable.

[Cheswick2.0]

32. People don't like to give up their favorite prejudices

The left is no different than the right in that respect. People also like to trivialize subjects into easy to understand Black and White pictures.

Try to convince someone of the following:
Christian fundamentalist isn't always conservative
Evengelical isn't always fundamentalist
Science and God aren't mutually exclusive to many people

People who go around preacing their version of THE TRUTH are equally obnoxious whether they are Pat Robertson or some anti-theist bigot on DU.

[scarlet_owl]

47. Very well put.

Thank you.

[regnaD kciN]

54. Further evidence for your point...

Try to convince someone of the following:
Christian fundamentalist isn't always conservative

People should get a look at Sojourners magazine, a publication for Christian liberal activists.

The founder/publisher is Jim Wallis, a member of the Plymouth Brethern, one of the most old-style fundamentalist denominations out there.

Anyone who knew which denomination Wallis was affiliated with would likely immediately assume that he was a Religious Right creationist type, but "it ain't necessarily so."

[Red State Rebel]

68. Excellent summation of the problem!

[Salviati]

33. Here's my take on this...

Full disclosure here: I don't really consider myself a Christian anymore, I was raised going to a more or less liberal Lutheran church, it's been a long time since I've been to church. I've got a fairly good personal experience with organized religion, but my views have shifted somewhat since I was younger, and I consider myself a deist now, to put a name on it.

I've seen a lot of the threads that attack and flame those with Christian beliefs here. It makes me feel bad for those who are devout in their beliefs who read them, and it makes me feel embarrassed for those who wrote them.

I don't want to defend these people too much, but in the real world they're probably experiencing much the same things that they inflict on you here. As much as the religious right would have us believe that Christians are persecuted in this country, this is in fact a very Christian nation. In most circles in this country, openly declaring yourself an atheist would likely bring about as much welcome as you seem to be feeling around here lately.

I know that not all Christians are responsible for such bad behavior in the real world, just as not all those who don't share your beliefs are responsible for the bad behavior here. Unfortunately, this doesn't make the attacks any less painful or any more excusable in either case. The people who launch such attacks are still jerks, as well as anyone else who tries to push their beliefs unwanted on others, be they Christian, Hindu, Islamic, or atheist.

There are a lot of us on this board who welcome good people of all beliefs, and we would be sad to see you leave over the poor behavior of a few of us...

[blondeatlast]

62. Christians are not the majority at DU, and we feel the sting of bigotry

on occasion.

God yes, it hurts. There is little that I take as personally as my beliefs. But I think we can learn much fron the debate even when it is less than civil.

This is a very mild form of bigotry and it isn't pretty. This is what the vast majority of people for whatever reason must deal with everyday (my husband is brown--I've seen it's effects on him). I don't separate myself out from the Wiccans, Pagans, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, etc. on the board, I believe in the end all our beliefs are rooted together somehow but we are the most obvious target due to the wingnuts.

I understand the OPs feelings; I've had the same ones. And the attacks do hurt. But in the end, the debate makes me stronger.

[cally]

37. Another to be counted

I mostly try to avoid the religion threads nowadays because they are too painful. Sometimes the disrespect is amazing. However, I've seen that many times that when someone posts and asks for more respect or to make the discussion less personal than many DUers jump in to help.

[Ksec]

42. I have a spiritual side . I cant seem to find it though.

I was raised going to church every Sunday, My Momma was and is a Sunday school teacher and constantly hounds me about the way I am constantly sinning. I mean I do sin constantly but why does she have to remind me? Its hard enough to sleep as it is without having a guilty conscience to add to my habitual crime spree habit. No I do have a good side that used to go to church and may go back someday.

[Mick Knox]

45. Thanks for the safe Haven!

Great idea!

[Bake]

50. Count me.

I am a Christian. And not a wingnut!

Bake

[donotpassgo]

52. As a Christian Liberal...

Let me say right off the bat, Christians ARE NOT victims. We ARE NOT persecuted ANYWHERE in the western world. I really don't like the martyr aspect of the Christian character. I find it self-righteous and uncomfortable. Those with Christian beliefs (such as myself) have different viewpoints and a movie like The Passion creates a great forum of discussion.

I'm sorry that some of the more zealous members of this board offended you, but, when Pagans, Muslims, Jews, and others have been the focus of brutality for thousands of years I am kind of bothered by the comparisons to Christians in this day and age.

As a Christian, I disliked the Passion as history, theology, and filmmaking. I have the distance to discuss the film objectively and not take any criticism as an attack on my faith (as the numbnuts over on FR do).

As a Christian, I acknowledge I am part of the status quo and I do NOT suffer because of my beliefs. Christians were fed to the lions 2000 years ago. Now we create policy and have out finger on the button.

Im sure you'll garner the apologies you seek and some of the more rabid anti-religion folks will gladly offer their mea culpas. But I ask for no sympathy because I feel I deserve none. We should all strive for a better understanding of each other beliefs, but challenging the opposition, in my view, is a heck of a lot better than just asking for people to lay off.

But that's just one Christians opinion.

[blondeatlast]

63. Bravo (a?)! Well said. nt

[Red State Rebel]

67. It is not the debate of Christianity that is offending....

It is that invariably on these thread there are members who chime in with outright insults and derogatory remarks towards Christianity and Christians. This has nothing to do with intelligent debate on religion or the movie, it is rude, hateful behaviour toward a group of people. If we bash Freepers for being anti-muslim, why are DUers given a pass for being so anti-Christian?

[Mick Knox]

69. IMO when DU's bash christians.. they bash muslims and jews

and basically all religions.

The God of Muslims and Jews is the same being.. the beliefs differ.. but they all are based on Abraham's God. Thats my VERY limited understanding of the Muslim faith any way...and certainly the Jews worship the same God.

[GreenPartyVoter]

70. Another liberal Christian checking in.

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm#periodicals

[JasonDeter]

55. Jesus said, "If they hated me without a cause, they'll hate you too."

paraphrased by me. There's nothing you can do about it. All those how desire to live Godly IN CHRIST JESUS will be prosecuted. Thats why God gave us all faith.

[Nikia]

56. I am Christian and I try to be respectful to all

I don't mean to be offensive to atheists when I say this, but I don't understand what some people's problem is about being offended when exposed to religious expression. I am not offended by anyone else's religious expression and have attended religious services or events with friends of other faiths and have not been offended. This does not diminish my Christian faith.
I am offended though if someone tells me that my religion is a bunch of lies, fairy tales, or superstition. I do not go around telling anyone that about their different religion. I don't tell anyone that they are going to hell. When unprovoked, I try to avoid saying things to suggest that atheists may be missing out on a big part of life by only believing in the physical world even if I think it.

[southerngirlwriter]

57. I don't understand

how anyone can look at the world we live in and think it's all a big accident. Originated out of nothing. That, to me, takes a LOT more faith than it requires for me to believe in God.

I do wish, however, that basic civility and decency wasn't so hard to come by around here on this issue. The original poster in this thread asked for one thread as a "safe haven," and it didn't take but a few minutes to get the Christian-haters in here. :(

I'm not often proud of what I see others who call themselves Christians do, but the behavior of the Christian-haters on DU doesn't make me think they're terribly "reasonable" or "rational." I'll take a well-meaning Christian over an angry, deliberately unkind "rational" person any day.

[jonnyblitz]

58. well...

when one has been on the receiving end of "christian love" their whole life one tends to have a hard time embracing it. sorry :shrug: I dont feel I am missing ANYTHING by living a life of reason and rational thought THANK YOU.

[truthspeaker]

59. I am not offended by being exposed to religious expression

Here's what I am offended by:

Being expected to participate in a religious expression I do not believe in (and this includes "Under God" being added to my country's Pledge of Allegiance, our national motto being changed to "In God We Trust", and religious symbols being placed on government-owned property).

Being called intolerant for expressing my opinions of the moral, social, and political teachings of certain religious figures and groups.

[ButterflyBlood]

71. I don't understand that either

not to mention it's rather hypocritical. Why do atheists usually get annoyed with fundies? Because the fundies keep shoving their beliefs on them and trying to convert them. So then how is trying to do the same thing from the opposite side any better?

and yes, I know that many atheists are not like that, but some here are.

[NashVegas]

64. If You Want a Safer Place

Try the Meeting Room, but even there prepare for skeptics. Ain't no such thing as a guaranteed safe place unless the admins wish it so, believers and non-believers alike. By starting a thread like this, all you're doing is creating more division and I can see there's already a wee backlash brewing.

I've seen plenty of cases where both the religious and the anti-religious get bombed. Neither group owns martyr status here.

Last resort - killfile those whose anti-religion posts are driving you up a wall.

[Ilsa]

65. I have some questions about the movie....

At what point does the movie end? Is Christ left upon the cross? Entombed? Resurrected?

Also, the teaching is that all sin, past, present and future, is forgiven for the asking. I have always thought that this would be a suffering beyond the physical pain of humiliation, scourging, and crucifixion. I always thought it was "covered" during the period of Christ's death, and from the Apostles Creed, "...He descended into Hell, ..."

Is this even broached in the movie. Are am I to infer from this interpretation that my salvation, as well as that of billions of others, was dependent solely upon a torturous death?

I really would like to hear something about this from those who have seen the movie.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

66. Interesting Segment on "The Passion"

http://www.onpointradio.org/shows/2004/03/20040301_b_main.asp

This was a really interesting program, from many different perspectives. I think most Christians will come away better educated about their faith. I did.

Guests:

James Carroll, Boston Globe columnist and author of "Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews --A History"

Stephen Prothero, chairman of the Department of Religion at Boston University, author of "American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Icon"

Bob Wenz, VP of National Ministries at the National Association of Evangelicals, author of "Room For God: A Worship Challenge for the Church Growth and Marketing Era."

[mr blur]

72. But, but, but...

Isn't this is a place where we attack other people's political beliefs? Aren't those beliefs personal to those people? How come it's OK to attack someone for believing that it's right to be a Republican or a Conservative but not OK to react against someone who believes that it's right to be a Christian.

I don't really mean to attack you personally, just wondering...

[ProfessorGAC]

73. I Have A Few Sincere Questions

This is to any and all of the DU Christians here. Any thoughts on this would be interesting.

Since the evangelical and fundamentalists sects comprise only a small proportion of the overall Christian population, why is there not more outrage over charlatans and money grabbers like Falwell, Robertson, and their ilk?

Why is there not more open outrage over the way the entire Christian faith has been hijacked by people who are more interested in personal achievement than the word of God?

Why don't serious Christians more regularly castigate these types and take their faith back, so that those poseurs quit ruining the good name of your religion(s)?

I'd be interested in knowing the take of folks who are diligent Christians on this.

(Disclosure: Born and raised an Italian-Catholic. Fell away at nearly the speed of light at around 14 years old, while attending a Catholic high school. Haven't attended a church service of any type since, except for: weddings and funerals, and a Comparative Religion class my 3rd year of undergrad. I'm not exactly sure what i believe, but it isn't what i learned in grade school, and it sure isn't what Falwell says i should believe.)
The Professor

[southerngirlwriter]

74. self-delete

It's not worth it anymore.

Big tent, my ass.

[GreenPartyVoter]

78. Well, I am trying

I've been posting my website link at as many Christian portals as I can.

But of course, a lot of them will never accept it because my beliefs are considered unChristian by them. *sigh*

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[Red State Rebel]

79. Because my faith tells me not to judge others....

I don't approve of everything I see in "religion", but the Bible clearly states that you judge not lest you be judged. I've made some stupid mistakes in my life that required my asking for major forgiveness. Since that time, I am extremely careful about judging others. What they do or don't do is between them and God and is not for me to judge.

It is an example of the "hate the sin but not the sinner". As much as I may dislike things that are done, I have to differentiate the what from the who because I am commanded to love my neighbor as myself. I do no associate myself or affiliate myself with people I believe are wrong and that is the most that I can do.

[Nashvilliberal]

92. The entire Christian faith hijacked?

Falwell, Roberston, and their ilk. Out of the millions of Christians in this country alone, how many charlatans and money grabbers can you name? Fortunately, those who would fit that description are so small in number as to be not much more than peripheral noise on most Christian's radar. For most of us, even in highly centralized denominations like the Catholic Church (of which I am a member), our Christian experience takes place first at a very personal level in our individual relationships with God. A life dedicated to Christ is one that requires continuous self-examination, and an all-to-familiar knowledge of one's many flaws. Beyond that, we interact and worship with fellow Christians at our local churches, and try to work to improve our local communities, and probably raise money to support religious charity work to benefit the less advantaged in distant places we'll never see. So, after that, and in addition to living otherwise busy lives, most Christians have neither the spare time, nor the inclination, to be concerned whether televangelists are staining our image with the critics, because Christianity isn't about television, it's about how we each interact with others one-on-one. You know, Love thy neighbor. Forgive the people who piss you off, and yourself for being a hypocrite. And, more importantly, if there isn't appropriate outrage, it's because our Christian faith HASN'T BEEN HIJACKED. Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberston no more represent me as a Christian than does Snoop Dizzle Dogg. They speak for themselves. I suggest you do like many Christians and just turn them off. They only have power if you give it to them by listening.

[Heyo]

75. Right on...

It is a tough place to be Christian....

But we've been holding our own pretty good...

God rocks the heazy... word.

Heyo

[liberalhistorian]

76. Thanks for this thread!

I'm a liberal Christian, and I appreciate it.

I think most of the anti-Christian prejudice on DU is against the RW wingnut nutball fascist fundies, who've twisted and distorted and bastardized Christianity into something totally opposite from what it truly is, and they're always trying to shove their own view of morality down everyone else's throats, demanding that their beliefs be encoded into law that everyone has to follow, claiming persecution when it's really non-Christians in this society who are discriminated against, and demanding a theocratic dictatorship.

Unfortunately, the only Christians many people see are such types, so they think ALL Christians are like that. It's up to us to show them differently, that we're not all like that, that that's NOT the way Christianity is really supposed to be.

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. Christian progressive here.

Don't let them get you down. Be strong in your faith.

:hug:

[Padraig18]

84. "Blessed are those who humger and thirst for holiness, ..."

"...for they shall have their fill."

Be of good cheer! :hug::hi:

[bobthedrummer]

87. I wouldn't be here without Him.

I don't attend church, nor am I a fan of organized religion, but I'm a Christian.
:hi:

[Bonhomme Richard]

89. Ooops, sorry, wrong haven.

[Kamika]

90. me!

even though I despise segregating DU and the liberal party into "safe havens" a thread just to see who is a christian is cool