DU non-Christians check into this safe haven

[Wonk]

It's a rough place to be a non-Christian here at DU sometimes. I try not to get too discouraged - I don't want to end up leaving someplace I have enjoyed so much. If I wanted to go to church I'd go to church, not a political discussion forum like DU.

I don't want this to be a flamefest, I want this to be a place for those of us with non-Christian beliefs to stand up and be counted.

I can only hope if we express our hurt at these attacks on Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Cthulhuvians, Discordians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Sub-Genii, and others by Christians with a perpetual martyr complex (because Christians are just SOOOO oppressed in America these days, don't you know) maybe some people will see how we feel and come to understand how wrong it is to say some of the things that have been said.

"I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another." - Thomas Jefferson

[Nomad559]

1. Stand up and be counted

We Were Counted :evilgrin:

[everythingsxen]

2. I and the rest of my unholy cabal thank you..

and we shall sacrifice 10 virgins in your honor tonight!

Then we shall drink the blood of the innocent!

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!

Let's jam with Cthulu!

[daveskilt]

3. Im a religious fellow - and I applaud you

I don't come here to hear what someones version of god thinks of an issue. I respect their beliefs but that cant be the final word on a discussion - God has spoken you must agree. Spirituality and belief add much to the debate when they stimulate discussion of ethical values which are salient to a political discussion.

[A HERETIC I AM]

12. "God has spoken you must agree"!?!?!?!?!?!!

HE HAS????? lol to whom? in what fashion? The Bible? The Koran? The book of Mormon?

God is a myth and exists only in the mind of the believer.
Folks that hear voices in their heads are people that need to be concerned about their sanity.
People that hear voices in their heads that they are convinced is god talking to them should be committed

[daveskilt]

15. oops meant to put "" around that as an example of stupidity

as in those who use the "god has spoken - how can you argue with that" as a discussion ender - didnt realize I was that unclear, must be bedtime.

also all three of those books (bible, Book of mormon, koran) have some decent ideas in them. regardless of a belief in god - a good ethical fable is a good ethical fable. reading them in that light there is some decent value there.

but thats not why I come to DU, and wasnt my point. give me the secular not the religious (or religion bashing) here thanks.

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. OK...fair enough. And you are absolutely correct .........

there ARE valid lessons to be learned from the various spiritual texts of antiquity. I have said so before. But to claim, as many xtians do, that the bible has a lock on morality is disingenuous at least and simply wrong at most.
I saw something on another website that stated essentially that the bible does very little in promoting or edifying critical thinking and intellect.

Any book that actually gives pointers on how to discipline slaves, promotes public stoning of unruly teenagers and makes women a 2nd class among other absurdities needs to be taken with the grain of salt it so obviously deserves

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Man I'd hate it if you left.

[Wonk]

6. I'm not planning on leaving DU anytime soon.

This thread was largely inspired by this other thread. Having a counterpoint to it seemed like a good idea.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Balance is good

[prolesunited]

5. I think it's been awhile since I told you

:yourock:

[A HERETIC I AM]

7. LOL.....too funny.

At least the Free Thinking sense of humor is better then most.
Oh....excuse me...IN MY OPINION

(don't want to get anyone enraged because i might generalize.)

I am really curious about something though. Why is it that some believers on this board feel so threatened by someone goring their sacred cow? I mean, if their god is so powerful, and their faith in him so strong, what the hell difference could it possibly make to them if someone with an opposing opinion makes that opinion clear?

It is my opinion that belief in an anthropomorphic super deity is merely intellectually primitive.
As George Carlin so succinctly put it:
Religion has ACTUALLY CONVINCED people that there is an invisible man that LIVES IN THE SKY!

"Science and Reason over myth and superstition"
(and yes, if you actually think you will enter an eternal paradise if you think a particular way or do a particular thing, it qualifies as a superstition)

[daveskilt]

16. religion is funny

but I got pretty soundly bashed for saying so on another thread.

[nofurylike]

8. mmmmh. thank you, Wonk, and all: peace. n/t

[gottaB]

9. I don't know what discussions you're refering to, Wonk

But you have my sympathies.

The advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from the New England clergy--TJ

[corporatewhore]

10. Hell bound heretic/whateverist right here!!

[frank frankly]

13. be your own god

and make sure to keep the "g" very lowercase

just an opinion...

:hi:

[KT2000]

14. Lets hear it for

freedom from religion!

Thanks for the post Wonk.

[jus_the_facts]

17. Let us pray....O Lord...O You are so Big...so absolutely HUGE...Gosh we're

...reeeeeally impressed down here I can tell You...forgive us for this our dreadful toting...and well You're just so SUPER....amen! :evilgrin:

PRAISE MONTY PYTHON...for THEY know THE MEANING OF LIFE! :D

[undergroundpanther]

22. Heretic

Heres a mystic kitty heretic... Never will I declare such arrogance like I know God is ___ (the unknown is well..unknown)..Hell To be honest we all guess at this. Life here is hard and sometimes it downright sucks.
We all want something better,fear something worse and fighting all the manipulating,politics,economics, religion and other totally silly but widely accepted as "truth" mind games crazy societies play against people to oppress people..so many dreams go un touched so many words unsaid,so many lives put on hold..Until we wish that death wasn't all there is to IT.

Is there a spirit realm I dunno if there is one or what it might be.My brain filters everything through itself until I die..So,It doesn't matter if people agree with me or not.The more I assume I know the more blind I become.Disagreeing isn't a threat to what I feel is real..Conversion to me is religious salesmanship.

No matter what I or anyone else thinks is "out there"It is what it is regardless of how I look at it. I do realize I can do something about quality of life here right now.I can control myself in how I respond to situations life puts before me.I can choose compassion instead of being a jerk.I can decide not to bully or be a control freak twords myself or others.I can choose to have a good honest heart and seek wisdom wherever it might be seen .I can care about others well being as much as I care for my own.I can respect other's autonomy and consent and appreciate who they are just as they are as they define it for themself. Who Am I to tell anyone else who they are.And I can take good care of myself and strive to seek the beauty in this tragically flawed coexistence.And I will never call a bad thing,good.

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. From one heretic to another....WELL SAID! n/t

[Dookus]

18. Here I am!

What's on the agenda tonight?

[neoteric lefty]

20. an spiritual atheist here

a believe that the natural laws that govern our universe and our minds is the best God for me to believe in. the beauty in how our world works is a wonderous sight. the movie Contact had it right when the leading chick' said "I had a vision I wanted to share with everyone. About how small and insignificant and how rare and precious each one of us is." (something to that effect) I have nothing against any religious people because they choose to explain the world in a way that gives them the most comfort.

[PurityOfEssence]

21. Hey, this is snuggly and warm compared to the rest of this society

Just remember that they will bellyache about how your face hurts their fists, and how intrusive it is of you to dissuade them from forcing their views down your throat.

Seriously, though, remember: we're all refugees to a certain degree. Empathize a little and think how it felt when your first flush of happiness got smacked upside the headbone by hostility here. Theist lefties are lonely and lost in this seemingly cold mercantile society, and when they found refuge among the like-minded souls that they didn't know truly existed, they were happy too. Then one day, it became apparent that hostility (or at least derision) toward religion was tolerated here, and their happy warmth was undercut too. Lots of sweet people believe.

But the hell with them; let's talk about the Philistines. There's WAAAAAY too much religion in this world (pretty much any is too much) and this country's whacked out on it in an endless bender that goes way beyond any other industrialized nation.

Just don't get all worked up about it. Obey some simple rules; whenever you see yet another mother killing her children, refrain from posting that THERE'S ALWAYS A BIG RELIGION ELEMENT IN HER INSANITY AND/OR MEANNESS. Just don't point it out.

Don't point out that guys who don't believe in an afterlife don't plow airliners into high-rises.

Religion is about the fear of thinking and the terror of the unknown. Don't be so surprised that people red-line immediately on the subject, and don't be surprised that they aren't bounded by the decency of normal comportment that we mortals have to honor; accept it.

They need to know that we're still at the table, and many have never really encountered non-believers except in passing. You're an ambassador for a way of life, so behave yourself. You're also a full member of the fucking biosphere, too, so they have to behave their often icky selves too.

The basic issue is fear. Fearful people need to kill the question; questions hurt and terrify. Many believers actually aren't like that, and it's nice to hear a voice of reason among the threads; one almost always does. Having said that, of course, there's an inherent imperiousness: they're better than we are.

It's all very logical, you see: man is such a scurrilous being that only the fear of the allfrighty and hellfire keeps him/her from wanton mayhem. If you're able to be decent without fear of retaliation, you're infinitely morally inferior to someone who can only tone down the ugliness out of abject terror. Those with no moral compass are better than ones with one; accept it, and ye shall be free.

Oh, and don't go. You don't deserve the serenity it will bring.

[Sandpiper]

23. Now that the meeting has been called to order, I move that

All claims of anti Christian bias in the United States be laughed at and treated with utter scorn so long as Christmas and Easter remain official holidays. :-)

[LibertyorDeath]

24. Now in case the rest are watching

lets all join hands & i'll lead us in secular version of Kumbaya.

aah sweet safe haven how I have missed thee...

Thanx Wonk

[Sandpiper]

26. Self Delete

[POed_Ex_Repub]

27. I'm right here..

What did I miss?


:beer:

[truthspeaker]

28. Infidel checking in!

In some Christians's minds, just having this thread is "mocking" their faith.

And even though I deliberately wrote "some Christians" above, some Christians will take that as "all Christians" and get all defensive.

And even though no one in their right mind could possibly think that there's anything immoral about preventing a sperm and egg from meeting each other through physical or chemical barriers, there will be one or two DUers decrying the California Supreme Court decision requiring Catholic Charities to include contraception in their employee health plan.

I just don't get it. Women supporting the Catholic Church are like chickens buying stock in KFC.

[SoCalDem]

31. "Modern" Christianity is a rebuff of evolution

There just HAD to be a way to get around the fact that we "do" everything that animals do.. We do things that they cannot, but everything that they CAN do, we also do..

The "glossed" up version was a way to give "meaning", where there was once instinct.

Bear in mind too, that the educated people have always controlled the uneducated ones, so it made sense to have the educated people privy to supernatural truths and explanations that were "given" to the general public....for a fee..

Man's dominion over animals is the only thing that separates us from them.. It allows us to kill and eat them without a second thought..

In ancient times, people killed animals too, but it was for survival.. Once humans started cultivation, the need to eat animals was lessened, but if "God says he put them there for us to eat, why not"?

It's a power thing.. My god is better than your god.. I have the one true way.. I am going to heaven..you are going to hell.. I am pure..you are evil..

In the end, we are all just animals...

We are born..
We procreate..
We die..

[SoCalDem]

29. Don't hate me for posting this pic of God

[thebigidea]

30. I'm actually having posts deleted for making tame Jesus gags

not even approaching South Park or even Life of Brian levels. Since I can't control the sarcasm or snarkiness, I expect the warnings to either add up or make me throw a pre-emptive fit... unless Mel Gibson gets off my telescreen for a while.

Insufferable holy-types are suuuuuuuuuuch a bore. I never complain when people make fun of me, hell - I pioneered the process of mocking me.

[Nay]

32. Hear, hear. As an atheist who tries to follow Buddhist tenets

as much as possible (subtract the whole reincarnation thing, and skip prayer flags too), I often feel just like you.

It seems very hard to get very religious folks (Christian and otherwise) to realize that most of us recognize a person's right to believe in whatever they want to, but that does not make the actual belief sacred to us, never to be questioned, just because so-and-so over there believes it.

And the whole thing about Christians getting persecuted here and in the US -- well, it's so absurd I simply have no reply. These people need to go into their workplaces tomorrow and start talking about their atheism, and how religion is all false. I GUARANTEE they will be treated like dirt by a significant portion of the population.

[truthspeaker]

34. "persecution"=no longer receiving special rights

Some (again, note the word "some") Christians think that because students are no longer required to pray in school, and local governments can no longer officially endorse the Judeo-Christian* Ten Commandments, and Wiccans, Muslims, and members of other faiths are now allowed to practice freely, Christians are being "persecuted". The right to practice their religion any way they choose isn't enough for them; they want their religion to get special treatment from the government that other religions don't get.

*Actually just Christian. Ask a rabbi how Judaism regards the so-called 10 so-called Commandments.

[RebelOne]

33. I'm an atheist, but I think everyone here at DU

have been very tolerant toward us unbelievers.

[mopaul]

35. don't mind religious folks, just hate snitches

if an atheist posting here attacks a christian personally, i figure he should be alerted to the mods, but attacking christianity as it exists today as a political entity seems like fair game to me. but there are a lot of christians here who feel they are personally being attacked, when really it's just the annoying 1% of christians that make the most noise.

daring to suggest that they may not be 100% right on everything offends them. saying anything negative about a christian sect or a christian idea gets you alerted as well.

as an atheist, i don't like having to walk on eggshells and tippy toe around making sure i'm not offending a christian.

but, there is a middle ground, and i've tried to soften certain language to comply with the local rules. it's tricky though.
we'd get a lot more discussions done if it weren't for certain hysterical individuals who fell attacked at every corner.

[BiggJawn]

36. I'm actually getting tired of the DU "Holy Wars".

Whining Christians pissing and moaning about how they're "persecuted" for their beliefs, and Atheists laughing at them for their belief in their astral teddy bears.

Does nothing but take our attention off the task at hand.Why don't we just stop it?

You wanna think there's somebody in the sky making check marks in a book everytime you jerk-off or eat lobster in order to beat you up with it when you die, fine.
Just don't let that lull you into complacency about Calico Johhnie Arschloch and his minnions just because you both profess a belief in the same myth.

Else you'll be shocked at the new spring Burkhas for 2006....