DU Atheists/Agnostics and Non-Fundies Check into this Safe Haven!

[joeybee12]

I was raised a Catholic, still sort of believe. But after seeing some of the s**t being posted here, I had to create a place for people to rant about the ignorance that has suddenly taken over here in the lounge.

The straw that broke the camel's back was after I posted a thread about the Great Katharine Hepburn's tribute at the Oscars, and got a comment about how a tribute to her was meaningless because she was an atheist. Big fucking deal! She was a great actress, and a fascinating person. If some of the so-called Christians around here can't accept the fact that not everyone believes in what they do, and that because they don't does not make them a bad person, then God help us--you're no better than freepers.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Freethinkers are also welcome? Humanists?

n/t

[joeybee12]

2. Anyone who doesn't bash anyone's beliefs/non-beliefs, and who can

understand that not wanting to see Mel Gibson's Passion, and perhaps even seeing it and hating it is NOT Christian-bashing.

[Torgo4]

15. Okay...But

"We just don't want the Irish!!!"

---Blazing Saddles

[geniph]

68. AWWWW

*redheaded grimaces and whining*

(that's your cue)

[cboy4]

3. It's funny how you didn't

spell out s**t, but you
spelled out "fucking" LOL!!

But I completely agree with you!!

[joeybee12]

7. Yeah, what the f**k...as I started typing I tried to keep it clean, but

then I realized I didn't give a shit!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I believe in tolerance

and the hardest type to practice is tolerance towards those who are intolerant. I think that people are in various stages of evolution. Some need to have a structured religion in which they feel their beliefs are right and others are wrong. Doesn't mean they are right-that's just where they are. Personally, I've always found atheists to be quite idealistic, an admirable trait, imho. Agnostics see the world in shades of grey, which means they appreciate the nuances of reality. Religious folks sometimes are intolerant, but other times quite open-I have met people whose faith shines through them and who don't talk their beliefs but live them.

[joeybee12]

8. I agree, but I'm getting a little tired of the types who are intolerant

posting here, especially since this should be a neutral place, and it was from politics, but now it's being injected with religion. I think these types are very imnsecure about themselves and their beliefs if they have to feel better about what they believe in by demeaning what others don't.

[chefgirl]

70. Bingo!

>>I think these types are very imnsecure about themselves and their beliefs if they have to feel better about what they believe in by demeaning what others don't.<<

Funny, but that's exactly the argument that Christians on this board make about the atheists and agnostics. :think:

-chef-

[smirkymonkey]

84. It seems to me that if one is secure in their

belief system, they have no desire to force it on others or even require them be in agreement. A secure person understands that different people see things differently.

An insecure person, on the other hand, needs to be validated by the outside world and is usually unable to accept opposing viewpoints.

Not all Christians try to push their beliefs on others, but there is a very vocal minority who do and those are the ones who are trying to dilute the barrier between church and state.

I think a lot of non-believers are tired of having religion shoved down their throats, and what we are seeing now is the backlash. I know I am pretty tired of it.

[jonnyblitz]

5. someone bashed Hepburn because she was an atheist?

WOW! Don't even get me started on THAT! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[joeybee12]

6. Oh, I'd love to get you started! Imagine, the greatest actress of the

20th century! The post was something about how she had no faith, blah, blah, balh. Makes me mad even recalling it!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. One's faith, or lack of faith

is a private matter. The only time it should concern another person is if the individual's actions hurt or harm another-for example, someone who thinks they should kill another because their faith is different. Hepburne was a great actress and, from what I've heard, a wonderful person in private life. Her parents were very progressive-her mother was a champion of birth control, etc. I celebrate her life. I'm not an atheist, but I won't condemn atheists, either.

[Az]

22. One would think that it were a private matter

But some religions make their way through the world by converting others and condemning those that do not convert. They developa sizable presense in society and it becomes necissary to give voice the those that do not adhere to these beliefs or be overwhelmed.

Thus we rejoice in those that fight their way free of religious belief. We praise their names that others may know who is free. We do not do so in condemnation of those the believe. We do so in joy of sharing our lack of belief with our fellows. We do so to keep our light alive and burning brightly for all to see.

[jonnyblitz]

10. well

you sure woke me up without coffee this am with your post. I don't expect to hear this total CRAP here at DU, well, actually, I guess I do based on the posts I have been reading lately on other topics... :shrug:

I didnt know she was an atheist and ,being one myself, I respect her even more for it WHICH I won't get into because I dont wanna offend anybody, unlike THEM(and by THEM I mean religous folk with that attitude not ALL religious people)...I have been on the receiving end of that mindset my whole life and I don't suffer it lightly..

[TXlib]

36. Care to post a link?

[ithacan]

11. hey joeybee12

recovering catholic here too.

Now if you REALLY want to get pissed off and scared, check out this website: http://www.TheocracyWatch.org/

It documents very clearly and in detail how the Republican Party has been taken over the the Religious Right. And of course now the GOP is doing all in its power to make the US a one-party state, shutting the Dems out of the legislative process in Congress, gerrymandering to cement in their majority despite being in a minority in terms of issues, etc.

Just the behavior we'd expect from intolerant fundamentalists who see their way as the only "true" way...

[soleft]

12. Friend cancelled Oscar get together with me after seeing the Passion

Very strange. She told me she saw the Passion on wed. She goes thru these phases where she gets very "religious". I've known her since high school, she's been one of my best friends, but I know it troubles her that her faith is such a strong force in her life and I'm an atheist. I was supposed to go over her house Sunday night to watch the Oscars, I live in another state and had to make special plans to do this. She called me in the afternoon to say her husband wasn't feeling well and had to go to bed early. But she was still watching.

They have a two story house, he could have totally gone to be bed and not heard a peep out of us.

Something else is going on. I have this strange feeling that after seeing "the passion" she's perhaps not comfortable with my "lifestyle"

[mopaul]

13. losing one's religion is difficult

we fear admitting that there might not be a god, we fear veering off the religious paths set up by our ancestors and parents. we fear hell, and damnation and an angry god. i had a great deal of difficulty abandoning christian doctrines, having been raised to be a believer. but an automatic believer. my parents said basically, 'here is your assigned religion, now go and worship'.

changing one's religion, or abandoning it altogether is not everyone's cup of tea, and those who have bravely done it are seen as oddballs, outsiders, and kooks.

but according to recent polls i've seen here in DU, there are a LOT of agnostics and atheists, and they don't like being spit on everytime they raise an issue conflicting with the accepted local diety.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. I want to be able to speak out loud my beliefs

The same way religious folks do theirs -- "X, Y, and Z are true!" No qualifiers, no apologies.

But if I do that, someone always comes and says I'm "disrespecting" Christianity and I should be more "reverent".

That said, the number of things I am 100% sure is a lot smaller than that of a Bible- or Koran-thumper. Hmmm, this is growing into a kind of Unbeliever's Manifesto:

- There is no "magic". No levitation, no resurrection, no telepathy, no fortune-telling, no communication with the dead, no things turning into other things like "poof". Nosiree. Never happened, never will.
- In the extremely unlikely possibility that there actually IS a Very Big Cosmic Being that created this reality, he/she/it doesn't go around choosing sides in wars and issuing direct orders to people.
- Life came to be through natural processes, just like stars. And planets. Nature's configuration is such that these things do happen by themselves.
- Prayer works the same way a placebo works, no more and no less.
- Believing things without evidence is not a virtue, it's a vice. Furthermore, any belief that prevents you from accepting truths reached by reason and experiment is to be considered harmful.
- One of the reason democracies are great is they are LESS reverent to religion than most dictatorships are.
- We who hold these beliefs to be true have exactly the same right to shout them out loud and proud as anyone has to do the same with their religious beliefs. In short, we have no more obligation to be "reverent" towards religious beliefs than Pat Robertson has to be "reverent" towards Wicca or Zoroastrianism.
- Any insinuation that religion is a requirement for goodness will be treated as the bigoted smear it is.

[Melsky]

42. Yep

that pretty much sums up my beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

What always makes me laugh is when someone credits GOD for something, like saving their house in a tornado when a lot of other people lost their homes and died.

On another message board, there's a woman who found a stray cat at the same time I did. She found someone to adopt her cat because she prayed about it, I found someone to adopt my cat because it just happened that way. It's such a superstition.

[geniph]

69. for people who believe god answers prayers...

such as the woman who prayed for someone to adopt her cat, do you ask them why they don't pray for an end to child molesters, wars, drunk drivers, the Supreme Court selecting Presidents, etc.? I never can figure out why they think god will help them find their car keys, but let someone else's mother die of cancer in screaming agony. Weird god they have there.

[Brucey]

67. Great manifesto, JCCyC... I love it and agree.

A corollary to your last statement: Ethics and morality do not require religion. There are many good reasons to be ethical and moral without referring to supernatural punishments or threats. Also: there are many different religious faiths in the world; and often they contradict each other. They can't all be right. The idea that one should accept a religious belief for no reason other than "faith" is silly. Which belief should I accept: Shinotism, Taoism, Confuscianism, Islam, Zoroaster, Mormon, Hinduism, Buddhism...? And which denomination of the one I choose, since there are many, many variations? Religion is like TV; it is harmful in many ways, but it does keep some people off the streets.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. Version 1.1, as per suggestion

The Unbeliever Manifesto

- There is no "magic". No levitation, no resurrection, no telepathy, no fortune-telling, no communication with the dead, no things turning into other things like "poof". Nosiree. Never happened, never will.
- In the extremely unlikely possibility that there actually IS a Very Big Cosmic Being that created this reality, he/she/it doesn't go around choosing sides in wars and issuing direct orders to people.
- Life came to be through natural processes, just like stars. And planets. Nature's configuration is such that these things do happen by themselves.
- Prayer works the same way a placebo works, no more and no less.
- Believing things without evidence is not a virtue, it's a vice. Furthermore, any belief that prevents you from accepting truths reached by reason and experiment is to be considered harmful.
- One of the reason democracies are great is they are LESS reverent to religion than most dictatorships are.
- We who hold these beliefs to be true have exactly the same right to shout them out loud and proud as anyone has to do the same with their religious beliefs. In short, we have no more obligation to be "reverent" towards religious beliefs than Pat Robertson has to be "reverent" towards Wicca or Zoroastrianism.
- Ethics and morality do not require religion. Any insinuation that religion is a requirement for goodness will be treated as the bigoted smear it is.

[ablbodyed]

14. I stopped posting on this subject....

because I was tired of the vile responses to my anti-organized-religion opinions. I could restate them but it does no good. Those caught in the trap of letting others tell them what their spirituals lives should be (and, Oh, by the way, PAY THEM FOR IT!!!!!!) are so defensive and closed that their responses are almost meaningless.
I'm not an athiest, nor an agnostic, but I reject organized religion for the greedy sham that it is.

[jonnyblitz]

16. I try to stay away until I read some condescending post

about how I am missing out because I dont "believe" then I cant help myself and give back what I get...sorry I just can't believe something without PROOF. If you don't require proof you are capable of believing ANYTHING and that to me is DANGEROUS. simple as that.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

35. I can see why you're frustrated...

I guess I'm in about the same boat as many here: "recovering" Catholic, who is tired of religion exploiting the faithful masses to line the pockets of the elite. I don't think that you should have to scare someone into believing... if it is the "Truth" (or so they say), then those who are seeking Truth should stumble there on their own.

Or maybe it is as George Carlin says, "God is all-seeing, all-knowing... He just doesn't manage money very well."

[NashVegas]

17. *rolls eyes*

The only post saying anything negative about Kate's lack of beliefs was by some 65-post newbie and he got slapped down. You really gonna get that bent out of shape over it?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

19. The Crusade Mentality is alive and well on DU

I am also a Cathlic, but I can't believe how divisive the Christians are here.

Katharine Hepburn was one of the great actresses of the 20th century. Those "Christians" truly show their prejudice and ignorance.

:grr:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. The scary thing is, even the most activist ones are very mild and tolerant

compared with the world at large. :scared:

[carolinayellowdog]

20. Ben Franklin on believers vs. unbelievers

Hey,

I'm reading the Isaacson bio of Franklin and so far my favorite passage is this:

...Lord Mareschal who had been asked to opine whether all forms of damnation were for eternity. Franklin compared it to the plight of a mayor in a Puritan Massachusetts village who was called on to resolve a dispute between those who wanted to erect a Maypole and others who considered it blasphemous:

"He heard their altercation with great patience, and then gravely determined thus: You that are for having no Maypole shall have no Maypole; and you that are for having a Maypole shall have a Maypole. Get about your business and let me hear no more of this quarrel. So methinks Lord Mareschal might say: You that are for no more damnation than is proportioned to your offenses, have my consent that it may be so; and you that are for being damned eternally, G-d eternally d--n you all, and let me hear no more of your disputes."

CYD

[BigMcLargehuge]

26. LOL reminds me of Kodos and Kang from the Simpsons

Abortions for those that want them, and tiny American flags for those that don't!!! (When Kodos and Kang ran for President Disguised as Clinton and Dole)

[Anaxamander]

23. Hey... lay off the Christians, all right?

They're so oppressed, so abused. When was the last time you heard anyone mention Jesus? It's like he's the historical figure that time forgot.

Seriously, it's rough for Christians. I hear those diamond-studded crosses--bling bling, if you will--can get mighty expensive. Oh, and don't forget about the official "Passion" merchandise! It takes a keen observer to keep up with all the latest religious accoutrements.

[underpants]

24. Militant Agnostic-I don't know and you don't either.

bumpersticker on a car in my neighborhood

[supernova]

25. Most religion threads on DU completely miss the point

The debate should not be:

"I am religious and you're not and that's bad and here's why."

"I am not religious and you are and that's bad and here's why."

Both of those statements and their various vitriolic supporting "arguments" completely miss the point.

Why?

Because DU is a political board. That may seem obvious, but I fear we've strayed seriously off topic. And don't get me started on that movie. :eyes:

What should be discussed, debated, dissected and otherwise picked apart is how the GOP is using religion to drive a wedge between good and earnest people of all walks of life and philosophical bents. What should be discussed is strategies we can use to defeat this self-defeating tactic.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Well said, and I'd note that the Bush initiative to drive a wedge

regarding same sex marriage seems to have fizzled rather spectacularly. Polls are showing people don't care if gays marry, think it's just a distraction.
The poll samples are surely including religious voters.

[TXlib]

38. Preach on, Sister!!!

[cally]

50. Thanks

I agree completely. I think most of us can agree how Captain Codpiece uses religion to further his aims and how Falwell and the rest are evil. Let's just focus on that.

[alarcojon]

56. Great point (again)

If I am not mistaken, you made the same point in that poll where it was found that Christians are persecuted on DU. B-)

Politics and religion do mix, because the Bushies make sure of it.

I also echo the sentiment that we at DU cannot allow religion to divide us like this. I respect your beliefs as long as they don't infringe on my right to live my life as I see fit.

[supernova]

59. Thanks,

It's good to know someone is listening. Sometimes I feel like a broken record no one listens to.

Politics and religion do mix, because the Bushies make sure of it.

Yes. And the degree to which we allow ourselves to be sidetracked with endless debates about what's better: religion or non? the GOP has succeeded. I say they've succeeded for much too long.

Their influence is the 500 lb gorilla in the room no body wants to touch. We'd rather have petty arguments amongst ourselves. Gah!

I respect your beliefs as long as they don't infringe on my right to live my life as I see fit.

Right back at ya, dude! :thumbsup: B-)

[Az]

60. What we really need to accomplish

Is to figure out how to get each side talking to each other. There has been a lot of pain delivered to each side and it is not easily forgotten. But that gorrila is not going away. We need to settle our differences between each other here and then prepare to take on the religious right together and united as one chorus.

The right specializes in lock step motions. We need to have our defenses in line on this issue or we will fall.

[supernova]

62. Yes, and I don't have an answer for that

Is it that we need a different language for discussion, since so much baggage is associated with the usual words?

Open to suggestions.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. I don't care if people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics,

Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, Druids, etc. I'm Catholic, it works for me, but I would never say someone else "should" be Catholic.

I've never started a thread dealing with religion and would be perfectly happy to never talk about religion here at all. It gets brought up by people attacking religion. I won't let misinformation and slurs go by. I'll stand up for my Catholic faith and also for the snake handling Pentecostals' right to handle snakes, the Mennonites' and Quakers' right to oppose military service and war, the Jehovah's Witnesses right not to salute the flag, just like I'll stand up for anyone's right not to believe in a deity, not to belong to or attend a church.

I've never seen a thread or post attacking people who don't believe in a deity, but if I ever do, I'll be on them like white on rice, defending your rights. I know other Christians here will do the same. We are not your enemies. The Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists are the enemies of us all. (They may have plants at DU. I can't answer for them,)

We need to unite against them and a first step would be to stop sniping at beliefs you disagree with that do you no harm. Nobody here at DU supports the formation of a theocracy in this country.

Let's stop the religious wars and GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!!!

[Mick Knox]

28. Questions for Agnostics

If the best End Game you can hope for for you and your family is to lie at the bottom of a hole, does that affect other things in your life.. for example:

- Is the only reason to be moral is fear of Jail... and does state laws decide for you your line of morality? If there is no reason to be moral.. why do it? What does morality.. saying being decent or not robbing someone else really matter in a profound manner?

- Does this lead to any type of hopeless feeling or anger because you know in the end.. the best thing you can hope for is to be worm food?

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Hold on -- couldn't you have phrased your question less provocatively?

Nobody's getting out of here alive. Believer or non-believer, you wind up in a hole as worm food (or immolated in a very hot oven.)

Why not just ask straight out how people can have morals if they don't believe in a deity who's keeping tabs on their behavior for future reward or punishment? I know they can and do, but they need to tell you how it works for them.

[Sorwen]

31. You shouldn't need God to have morals

You don't need to believe in God to have morals or to know what is right or wrong. You don't need to be religious to care for the well-being of other humans. The reason to be moral and to treat others kindly should be based on a love for humanity and a desire to live in a peaceful society. I think there's something very wrong if people's morals and behavior toward others is based only on a fear of punishment by God.

[BurtWorm]

32. If you believe (on very good evidence) this life is all you have,

doesn't that make it more precious?

Is fear of punishment the only thing that can compel people to do good?

[Az]

34. You have an effect on your environment

It is not just fear of jail that guides your hands. As Socrates suggested in his final words, that which we teach others to do we can expect them to do to us. Our species learns by example. That which we do to our fellow human they will learn to do to us.

When told that atheists derive their morality based on reasoning and humanist ideals a theist balks and said "you mean you can rape, murder, and steal if you want to?!" To which the atheist replied, "but I don't want to, do you?"

[Mick Knox]

37. I give credit where credit is due..

That socrates answer is a pretty darn good one.

I have other points but I'll leave yalls safe haven rather than turn it into a debate.

Thanks for the answers.. Ive been wanting to ask..

[Az]

39. No worries

I would much rather you ask the question than to continue to live uninformed. One of the things that seems to be a common thread within the nontheist community is a shared respect for seeking the truth. As such you may find that we are quite open to dialog where real questions are being asked. We like knowledge.

[RandomKoolzip]

40. I know a Libertarian Catholic who raises this SAME argument

everytime I mention that I'm an atheist. He seems to think that it's human nature to steal, lie, kill, rape, etc. and that if we didn't have GAWD comin' down from Heaven to give us the laws to live by, that we'd all be killing and raping each other. And so, me being an atheist, he asked me that same question you asked: is the fear of jail the only impetus you have toward acting moral?

Short answer: NO. There is a code of morality that is, I believe, ingrained in human behavior, that also MAY be learned (I'm not sure) which precludes us from acting badly toward each other, that is because IT FEELS BAD TO FUCK SOMEONE ELSE OVER, plain and simple. I don't know about you, but the times in my life that I've treated otthers badly, I've felt tremendous negativity and psychic pain. I don't like the feeling. And I wouldn't want other people to treat me badly, either.

I don't believe in a higher power, but I DO believe in Karma, although I don't believe it's a spiritual principle; I think it's science: all actions cause equal and opposite reactions.

I think you can live according to the tenets of your conscience without recourse to any cosmology whatsoever, and NO, I'm pretty happy with only having one life. I'm comfortable with the ambiguity of not knowing what happens after I die. Actually, it's a motivator to get things done!

[Philosophy]

47. In the imortal words of the great philosopher, George Costanza:

http://www.rpi.edu/~markhn/sounds/society.wav

[Fleshdancer]

48. Your insulting questions were really meant for Atheists Einstein.

I consider myself a Secular Humanist and I have a strong sense of ethics without the fear of jail or any form of early religious upbringing. No, state laws don't decide my "line of morality" whatever the hell that's suppose to mean.

I don't need a bible or the belief in a god or goddess to want to be a good person and want to do good for other people around me. My ethics is consequence based, and for me, utilitarianism makes the most sense. There is virtue in giving to the poor, loving my husband and nurturing my child, not robbing, not killing people, etc. It makes me feel good about who I am and it makes me a productive member of society.

I don't have to fear some ridiculous concept like hell to be forced to be good. If you need that, then isn't your "morality" questionable? How about the "morality" of child molesting Priests??? Where do they fit in to your "line of morality"?

No, my personal beliefs do not lead to any "type of hopeless feeling or anger", if it did, I wouldn't believe what I do. What would be the point? I don't waste my precious time daydreaming about what happens after death, I focus on my life right now as I live it. Eyes wide open buddy.

[cally]

51. I don't believe that you need to believe

in an afterlife to have morals. I find your statement insulting to many atheists and adnostics who have wonderful values. Christian belief is not the only way nor the best way for many. I respect all.

[melv]

54. self satisfaciton

nope, because self preservation and satisfaction is a driving force in every single human being. We are all selfish, even the best among us.

[Az]

55. We are also

Communal. We are a social creature. We seek to not only advance our own cause but we also seek to work with those close to us and help them. Unfortunately Corporate entities exist in the world and they are truly driven by greed alone. People can learn to ignore their basic nature, corporations know only the call to increase profits.

[NightTrain]

57. I'll attempt to answer your questions, though I find them condescending

<<- Is the only reason to be moral is fear of Jail...>>

Why do you assume that the only reason for an agnostic to be moral is fear of jail? Ever heard of a conscience, or a sense of social justice? Yes, non-religious people can have those too!

<< and does state laws decide for you your line of morality?>>

Partially. But there are plenty of legal things I won't do either because I find them morally reprehensible. Voting Republican, for example. Or shopping at Wal-Mart.

<<If there is no reason to be moral.. why do it?>>

Again, you're assuming that because I'm not religious, it means I have no reason to be moral. Rather arrogant of you, don't you think?

<< What does morality.. saying being decent or not robbing someone else really matter in a profound manner?>>

It's called having a sense of right and wrong. Believe it or not, some of us developed it without reading the Bible!

<<- Does this lead to any type of hopeless feeling or anger because you know in the end.. the best thing you can hope for is to be worm food?>>

Fuck no! If I can do some good in the world while I'm here, I bloody well am going to do it.

It sounds to me like your primary motivations for being religious are selfishness (getting your reward in heaven) and greed (fear of going to hell). How does that make you better than me?

[lapislzi]

58. You don't need a supernatural being to believe in a golden rule

The fact is, I don't know what will happen to me after I die, but there is no evidence to suggest anything other than the fact that I will decay. So what?

Are you suggesting that the only reason to act morally while alive is because of a potential reward after death? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. Don't you have sense enough to make your own decisions about what's right and wrong?

I make decisions to act morally based on how I would like to be treated, how I would like the world to be. Being an atheist or agnostic does not doom one to a life of moral relativism. Quite the opposite.

[Skittles]

64. your questions are just plain silly

I do the right thing because it feels good to do the right thing, not because I believe in fairy tales.

[geniph]

71. Simple answers for simplistic questions

1. The main reason to be "moral" - in other words, not to hurt other thinking, feeling beings - has nothing to do with jail, or laws. It is empathy, pure and simple. If you can empathize with the pain and fear of other thinking, feeling beings, then the decent person does not inflict pain and fear on them without good cause. It has nothing to do with invisible purple bunnies with magical powers, or whatever your particular spiritual beliefs may entail.

2. Since statement #1 is patently false, statement #2 is not applicable. The best thing I can hope for in this life is to make a positive difference in some other feeling being's life. That's enough for me.

[Book Lover]

75. You're going to be in that hole too you know

The only reason to behave morally is because life is worse if you don't. It is better for life to be good than to be bad. What's so hard about this one?

[DrWeird]

76. Let me ask you this...

is the only reason you have to be moral the fear of Hell? Or to hope for heaven?

Rather selfish, isn't it?

[SmileyBoy]

33. I'm a moderate Muslim over here!!!

Even though there's a strong Muslim community in my city, I still feel that I can't tell anyone what my religion is. The good part is that I did tell a good friend of mine last fall, and he had no problem with it (of course it turned out he's as liberal as me).

[nini]

41. I am a practicing Catholic and I freaking hate the religious debates.

I have never pushed my faith down someone's throat and expect the same from fundies, atheists, etc... Religion is not one of those things you can force on someone and this country was based on the freedom of choosing or not choosing the religion of your choice.

I believe in the separation of church and state as much as I do my religion, which is a big reason why I respect the views of others. This is why I would defend anyone's right to disagree with me on my religion or their belief or not.

I agree that the threads here have gotten out of hand and those that feel they can push their views on others are wrong. YOu can disagree with me and I with you, we just need to respect each others views and be done with it.

[afraid_of_the_dark]

43. I really appreciate your perspective...

You believe what you want to, but you don't force others into your belief system. Well said. :yourock:

[nini]

44. thanks..

it seems so easy to me to live and let live.. I don't get why people let themselves get so wound up about what others believe. :shrug:

[Book Lover]

77. Why should I

respect someone on an intellectual level if they hold a position I find not only untenable, but outright fantastic? I am happy to be obligated to be socially respectful, but not at the intellectual level.

[Az]

79. Because

you want them to respect your position.

The means by which some see the world are through different filters. These world views work for both parties. If you wish or see some advantage to others changing their view of the world you are going to have to figure out how they are seeing it and then approach them in a way they can accept. Anything else is really just the intellectual equivelent of beating your chest and making threatening gestures.

[Book Lover]

80. Not intellectually

I only have the right to demand social respect, which I do. Intellectually, I can't say anything to a holder of a faith.

I am not interested in changing how people think; I don't think anyone can effectively do that. I just want to get the gods out of my public life.

[Az]

81. Use your intellectuality

Figure out how to effect what you desire. Shouting at them to stop believing is not going to work. Figure out something that will work.

Look, religion pretty much operates unopposed by any substantial structure. Its only real threat comes from others of its ilk and the occaisional disagreement with science. Science on its own is not going to sweep religious fanaticism from the world. Without something to fill the void left in our society it will simply seep back in.

If atheists form up along the lines of simply opposing religion then we are going to lose. If there is not some positive central point to an organization it will only attract negative factors. If we want a world that begins moving in a more logical direction we have to make it. This is not done by destroying religion. It is done by building upon social structures in the name of reason and rational thought. With nothing positive to stand for we are nothing but hate filled heathens.

[NNadir]

45. Make no mistake about it. Atheists rights are under assault.

The pig in the Whitehouse is the son of another pig that lived in the White House who said that "Atheists are not Americans."

http://www.atheistcoalition.org/docs/activism.html

[CrownPrinceBandar]

46. What makes me sad is...

that how this issue has polarized DU. Before, religious quibbles were not uncommon, but of late the arguments have gotten downright vehement. Its has become the norm to surf the boards and see the religious arguments turn into nasty personal attacks. It makes me think all the criticisms that folks like the FR hurl at DU that say we are a hateful, infighting bunch. Are they that far off?

Religion has become a wedge issue that is dividing the folks here far more effectively than any conservative political agenda ever could.

Just my $0.02.

[Skittles]

49. I am so tired of religion

so very, very tired.

[Az]

53. Our society is soaked with it

Those that fall under its weight do not get an option to just opt out. There are groups that are massing to place religious constructs in place of our rights and only a concerted effort opposing them will succeed.

I understand the stress many experience with this subject. It is one of the most difficult topics to deal with. But in avoiding it we have allowed those that are willing to force their beliefs on others to take it up and make it their own. We cannot afford to ignore this topic now or ever again. Belief is the most powerful force on the planet. To simply trust that it will move along a benign course is like standing in the path of a tornado. We have to deal with it.

[Skittles]

63. the fanaticism I am starting to see

is the result of the topic being ignored. I'm tired of being told I must "respect their beliefs". Absolutely sick of it.

[NightTrain]

52. A few quotes on which to ruminate

Of all the tyrannies that exist, tyranny in religion is the worst.

--Thomas Paine(?)


Religion is a crutch for the weak-minded.

--Jesse Ventura, then-governor of Minnesota


When doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing! His word isn't worth shit; not with the "Good Lord" telling him how to fuck you on the deal.

--William S. Burroughs


I thank god I'm an atheist.

--Mike Stivic on "All in the Family"

[bubba_fett]

61. I was raised christian

When you get that sort of upbringing, your religion is spoon-fed to you along with all other sorts of knowledge like why the sky is blue, and why the sun goes down at night. For a long period of time in a child's life (mine included) god is in the back of their mind as the scientific explanation of the universe.

A lot of politicians want to exploit this and literally put the fear of god into their voters. These neo-cons, Reagan, Bush etc. are slime. They're not christians, to them it's a campaign ploy, and they have no respect for the constitution or religious freedom.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. Recovering Catholic, checking in.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

66. I was raised baptist and got over it

Throughout my life, this faith has used the bible to diminish me: first as a woman, then as a homosexual. I abandoned my faith because it didn't speak to me or give me comfort as a human being.
Now as a ex-christian, the faith tries to diminish me even more: as an atheist and again as a left leaning democrat. Now they consider me sub-human. I guess I'm damned all around. I respect anyone's right to their spiritual path, I just resent it being used against me in a self-righteous, judgemental way.

[Nomad559]

72. The Celebrity Atheist List

The Celebrity Atheist List

[alarcojon]

74. Cool!

:thumbsup:

[joeybee12]

73. Started this at 5 a.m., now it's 5 p.m. and still going strong! It's the

Energizer Bunny!

I'm glad, for the most part, that this has not been flamed!!!!!!!!

[TrogL]

82. OK, so do people consider Anglo-Catholic Anglican or Catholic?

My bishop considers us a nuisance.

[GOPBasher]

83. I don't care what people believe; I care how they act.

There are good people and bad people in every religion. There are good and bad people that are Atheists or Agnostics. It's just important to be a good person.

[everythingsxen]

85. Awwwwww

And I just converted to Wacko Fundieism!

We hold various tenets of all the major religions sacred, then we kill anyone who doesn't!

In the name of God of course. He is a god of peace and love you know. :evilgrin:

[progressiverealist]

86. Ex-Christian here- thanks to Bush

If I have to like Bush to be a Christian- then buh bye! This is the way it seams in Bush's america. He has stolen the church.

[Vittorio]

87. I'm a Christian, and I'm no fundie.

How come "fundie" is always synonymous with Christian? Just because some of us are Christians doesn't mean you have the right to call us "fundies." We're not over-the-top people who think the world is 6,000 years old and that every word in the Bible is God's exact words.

And in my religion...Christians aren't supposed to acknowledge atheists, as stated in the Bible. So someone made a comment that they didn't like Katherine Hepburn because she's an atheist. Who cares. I don't like atheists. I think they have a weird thinking and understanding of things. It doesn't mean I won't associate with them or bash them because of their beliefs.

Respect my beliefs...for I have respected yours.