Does anyone know about non-verbal learning disability (NLD)?

[lightningandsnow]

I talked to my psychologist yesterday and she said, while she's not done with her official report, she definitely thinks I fit the criteria for a learning disability. She's trying to determine, however, whether it's a visual processing disorder or NLD. She said she's leaning heavily to the side of NLD, because it would explain a hell of a lot more. The 39-point gap between my verbal and nonverbal IQ, the social problems, the coordination issues, everything.

Does anyone have this learning disability, or know someone who does? I mean, I've read up on it and such, but I want to get more information.

Well, at least I'm glad to have a psychologist who cares, at least, unlike the "giftedness expert" I saw when I was 7, who insisted the discrepancy was perfectly normal because the IQ test was not representative. Yeah, I got a better test and it showed my non-verbal IQ was even lower than previously thought.

[tigereye]

1. this looked interesting, although it's not about research per se

I know a bit about it from my work with kids... it's a fascinating issue, actually. Very complex with it's linkages to Autism Spectrum DIsorders. I think you see more folks paying attention to it now than in the past.

http://www.nldline.com/

[lightningandsnow]

2. Interesting!

A lot of that could've helped me when I was younger. Everyone seemed to think that scolding me would help me acquire social skills, and make me able to draw.

The psych I saw when I was 7 attributed some of my scores to me being "belligerent". For real.

[DarkTirade]

3. If people kept doing that to me, I would be belligerent too...

:\

[tigereye]

6. scolding never really helps anyone -skills teaching does!

Well and limit setting, I suppose. ;)

good luck! I find NVLD kind of fascinating - it's not something that a lot of school psychs tended to pay attention to in the past.

[truedelphi]

13. I'm sorry you were scolded a lot. (Or scolded at all.)

For some reason people can go all the way through and "earn" a Masters and even A PhD in Psychology and depending on what schools they attend, not learn much about the human brain at all.

The human brain is fairly well mapped out, and with proper training in this mapping, most people working in the field of Psychology get the idea that those with deficits will not be helped by being scolded.

Unfortunately these days in California, people can hold down jobs as Psychiatrists and therapists and not understand the least bit of what it means to have a behavior disorder.

Thus they end up scolding. And getting paid huge salaries while they do so.

[woo me with science]

4. It is widely misunderstood, even by clinicians, and often incorrectly diagnosed

based solely on a major split between the nonverbal and verbal IQ. However, you don't just need to have a split in order to qualify for the diagnosis; you have to have an actual DEFICIT in the nonverbal IQ in order for the disability diagnosis to be valid. For example, someone with a Verbal IQ of 115 (high average) and a Performance IQ of 79 (borderline range) would be diagnosable. Someone with a Verbal IQ of 145 (very superior) and a Performance IQ of 99 (average) would not.

A lot of people are merely average in nonverbal abilities but superior in verbal areas. That does not mean they have a disability. It often FEELS like a disability, because they are used to excelling in the verbal area, and having to function like an average person in other areas can be very frustrating. However, it is not accurate to diagnose a disability under these conditions, because the nonverbal abilities are still technically within the average range.

It is an atypical and somewhat frustrating pattern of strengths and relative weaknesses (not absolute weaknesses). Just explaining and helping the person understand (and learn to capitalize on) the pattern is really the role of the psychologist in that case, rather than funneling the person to disability services that aren't warranted.

*On edit: It is perfectly reasonable to describe the pattern of strengths and weaknesses as "a nonverbal learning disability pattern" and to provide some education/informal support to help the person understand and cope with the challenges it brings. However, it is absolutely wrong to say that the person is "disabled" or to indicate that they need services like a person with actual nonverbal deficits would need.

[tigereye]

7. it's interesting how folks tend to focus on the discrepancy itself and not on

the deficit(s)... I do think a lot of schools are able to make some of those distinctions, though, and provide relevant remediation within that framework, if they are allowed some flexibility.

I was saying up above that a lot of schools do not seem to be very knowledgeable about this particular pattern or disability, though, from what I have seen.

[woo me with science]

12. My experience with the schools

has been that they really do try to address the actual problems the kids are facing, through whatever educational classification will work. It can be tricky when kids don't fit into one neat category.

I do think that people need to be cautious about labeling perfectly normal to gifted kids as "disabled" based solely on a discrepancy in scores. If all areas are truly average or better, there is no need to hang that sort of label on a child and suggest to him or her that there is something wrong, rather than focusing on the fact that everything is fine, but some things are exceptionally fine. :)

[lightningandsnow]

8. However, I have specific weaknesses in certain areas.

My coordination and visual-motor integration are both below 1st percentile. Having coordination that bad SUCKS - I can't copy drawings, my writing is horribly messy, and it's hard for me to write (I often end up with pain in my wrists, all the way up to my shoulders, while doing that or any other kind of involved activity with my hands), I basically can't do sports, I drop things, I bump into people and objects. Um, tell me I don't need services?

My visual memory also is pretty bad. It took me a long time to develop social skills, and I still have trouble making friends my own age.

[woo me with science]

9. Hi Aspiegrrl.

If you have visual-motor coordination problems that severe, then you should definitely qualify for some support in that area. AspieGrrl, you seem to have interpreted my post as an attack on you. I tried to be very clear in my post that if the scores warrant services, then the person should qualify for support. My post was meant to help clarify how the diagnosis is supposed to be reached, not to make judgments about you or to suggest that you are looking for something you don't need. Obviously I don't have access to your specific scores, or the entire range of scores. The visual memory scores are certainly something to be added to the mix here.

Let me clarify again. Many people receive support for severe visual-motor issues without receiving a learning disability diagnosis, because they process spatial information as well as the average person. They do not fit the profile of the typical NLD person, whose difficulties (including social problems) are strongly related to their difficulty processing spatial/visual information. It's also worth considering that if there are Asperger's features going on, or a full Asperger's disorder diagnosis, that may certainly affect social functioning from a different direction, even if testing indicates that the spatial processing abilities are within the average range.

I am not saying that an intact Performance IQ rules out the possibility of other issues that genuinely should be addressed. I am only saying that many people with clearly average spatial processing abilities are misidentified as NLD, simply based on the discrepancy.

[lightningandsnow]

10. Nope, I didn't think it was an attack.

Sorry if I sniped at you a bit. Bad mood, I guess? I'm really sorry.

Apparently I don't have asperger's. I mean, I take the people who diagnosed (or rather, non-diagnosed) this at their word, but they did mess up my anxiety diagnosis. They said I had mild anxiety-NOS, but my psychologist is pretty sure I have a moderate case of Generalized Anxiety Disorder. Ha, I don't, like, trust anyone now. I guess I'm sick of being told to screw off by medical professionals? My new psych is good, now.

Again, I apologize. :hug:

[woo me with science]

11. No problem.

Sometimes I tend to be a bit blunt in my replies, and I know this maze of diagnosis and obtaining services can be really frustrating. I have been editing my post to try to better explain...but you beat me to the reply.

Anyway, good luck negotiating all this. I hope you have some good advocates working with you on all this as you do the college thing.

[TZ]

5. You might want to PM Leftish Brit...

Do you know her from the Health Forum? She would know.