Well, I think it was largely a miracle.

[LeftyFingerPop]

So there.

[MissMillie]

1. ok

I don't pretend to know all the forces in play, so I won't question anyone else's judgment on it.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. As someone with a brother who flies that particular flight

regularly, I think it was as well. Sometimes there are forces at work that we can't understand. The pilot's skill not withstanding, his calm and composure was something.

[LeftyFingerPop]

3. Agreed. n/t

[Ryano42]

4. Without question, THIS was a Miracle...

:P

[Bake]

5. That's how I see it. Others may not.

That's cool too.

Bake

[LeftyFingerPop]

11. Agree Bake. n/t

[Bake]

13. Mainly, I just don't see the need for some of the vitriol in other threads about this.

I'm just happy that everybody got out alive. I credit the pilot and crew, the rescuers, and if some choose to see the hand of the divine in it all, there's no harm in that.

Bake

[LeftyFingerPop]

17. Again, agree...

I'm just glad they made it.

[azmouse]

42. Thank you for saying this.

The dislike of Christians and Christianity on DU saddens me.

[LeftyFingerPop]

67. Me too...and...trust me....

We are not the only ones. A lot of people are afraid to speak up out of fear of getting their asses handed to them.

:hi:

[crimsonblue]

72. play the martyr a bit much?

gimme a break.

[LeftyFingerPop]

76. Give yourself a break....

It is that person's opinion. If you think you can question it, you have too much self-importance.

[crimsonblue]

78. they can have their own opinion

but that doesn't mean everybody that disagrees with them is trying to persecute them. Then again, religion does breed ignorance....

[LeftyFingerPop]

96. Huh?

[crimsonblue]

98. I prove my point.

:P

[LeftyFingerPop]

104. What point?

[crimsonblue]

105. you're incorrigible.

[LeftyFingerPop]

109. In what way?

[crimsonblue]

110. no way.

[LeftyFingerPop]

112. No kidding. I agree.

[crimsonblue]

113. I disagree.

[LeftyFingerPop]

115. Purple.

[crimsonblue]

116. #800080

[LeftyFingerPop]

117. That number is largely an urban legend.

[crimsonblue]

120. you're an urban legend.

I bet you're really just a made up part of my mind.

[LeftyFingerPop]

123. My neighbors say that I am.

An urban legend I mean.

[crimsonblue]

125. your neighbor's a liar.

[LeftyFingerPop]

128. He's a priest. and a policeman. and a social worker.

and a nun.

[crimsonblue]

129. is he a bitch? or a lover? a child?

[CreekDog]

6. They lost both engines, flew over the GW Bridge

and without power ditched into the river with no loss of life and barely any injury.

skill, certainly, but miracle too? surely!

[Radical Activist]

7. Thanks, I get that a lot

but I don't remember showing it to you.

[LeftyMom]

8. The problem with that kind of thinking is that once you believe that God or the universe or whatever

intervened for the people on that flight, you have to come up with a reason that all those other flights that didn't do so well did not merit similar intervention.

If miracles exist and horrible shit is still routine, God is either inept, absent or an asshole. An involved, interervening God doesn't stand up to scrutiny unless he is evil. So either you're left with no God, a powerless God which is really no better than none at all, an intervening but evil God or a God who doens't care to intervene in human affairs, which again effectively brings you back to no God at all.

[LeftyFingerPop]

9. No, there is no problem with that kind of thinking.

If someone believes in God, then they believe in God.

If they believe in miracles, then they believe in miracles.

If someone doesn't believe in God, then they don't believe in God.

It really is that simple.

[LeftyMom]

12. Yeah, but you're responsbile for the implications.

If God saves people, then you have to explain why He saves a plane-load of average Joes and not flipper babies or grandmothers with bone cancer or what have you.

Belief in a benevolent, interventionist deity is either sloppy thinking, or blindness to the suffering that exists in the world.

[LeftyFingerPop]

15. Listen...

My point is that beliefs should not be argued. They are very difficult to change.

You can type or talk about God until you are blue in the face. You won't change my beliefs, nor probably those of many others.

If someone has faith...why should I care? That's them. not me. I'm not going to argue with them, or tell them they are wrong.

[redqueen]

18. What about logic? Should we not discuss logic so as not to disturb beliefs?

:shrug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

20. We can discuss whatever you want to I guess...

But these discussions tend to turn into flame wars, so I think i will back off.

All I'm saying is that I will not instill "logic" or a "show me proof" type of mentality on someone's beliefs. Instead, I will tend to respect their beliefs, which have been formed based on their own personal life experiences.

edit spelling

[pokerfan]

33. Well you started this thread

You even added a rather provocative, "so there." Now you say don't want to talk about it? :shrug:

I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just enjoy philosophical discussions.

ETA: Are you simply trolling because that's something I can get behind.

[LeftyFingerPop]

35. Well...

I merely expressed a belief that was counter to another thread. The "so there" was a flippant remark in this regard.

By the way, I am agnostic, so we may not have much to argue or discuss.

My whole point here, I think, is that people believe what they believe, and I'm OK with that, but the intelligence of both sides should be respected.

JMO

[pokerfan]

36. I am capable of respectful debate

However, since I am also agnostic, I agree. We don't have much to discuss.

But I will point out that starting a thread positing a position that you don't really believe just in order to get a response is the very definition of trolling. :)

[LeftyFingerPop]

37. Uh, no...

i believe it was a miracle.

I don't understand your point.

Look up the definition of agnostic, then look up the definition of miracle.

[pokerfan]

39. If you claim knowledge of the supernatural (i.e. miracles)

then you are not an agnostic.

[LeftyFingerPop]

40. This will be my last reply along this line...

1) I did not claim "knowledge" of anything. I stated a "belief".

2) An agnostic does not profess atheism, but believes that the existence of God cannot be proved. That's me.

3) Stating that I believe that something is a miracle does not *necessarily* mean that I believe "God" intervened.

[pokerfan]

41. I think you are a little hazy on some definitions

Wiki is a good place to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

"So there."

[LeftyFingerPop]

44. That link is incorrect and has been proven to be an urban legend.

[pokerfan]

45. Now I know you're trolling

You got me. Good one! :applause:

[LeftyFingerPop]

46. Oh Christ...

I'm not trolling. It was a miracle to me.

I'm not a complicated guy.

If something looks like a miracle, I will say "Jesus Christ, that's a fucking miracle" without analyzing it to death.

Have a pleasant evening, pokerfan.

[pokerfan]

55. Honestly

The encyclopedia entry for agnosticism is an urban legend? :eyes:

I am done wasting any more time on this. And I thought you were too!

You have a pleasant evening, too.

[LeftyFingerPop]

58. Do I have to use the sarcasm icon for everything I post?

I would wear it out.

But anyway, my OP was serious.

[crimsonblue]

74. Amen.

But I think we can agree that the Flying Spaghetti Monster constantly touches us with his noodly appendage.

[LeftyFingerPop]

75. That hilarious!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Deep13]

25. Reality begs to differ.

If we were talking about anything other than people's opinions about god, you would not say that. For some reason you exempt this subject alone from any sort of critical examination. Any honest examination of a belief in god necessarily reveals its fanciful nature.

[LeftyFingerPop]

27. I don't exempt this subject from anything.

I'm saying that I will not fuck with or criticize someone's deeply held beliefs. That's their business, not mine.

[Deep13]

31. What if his deeply held belief...

...is to make the world live by their religious rules? What if he believes that the morning after pill is murder, thereby justifying lethal force in defense of a third person? What if that belief is that a man should never be subordinate to woman (precluding women managers, judges, cops etc.) What if that belief is to shield their children from modern medicine and scientific theories because all answers are in the Bible? What if ones deeply held belief is that he will be lavishly rewarded in the afterlife for murdering infidels?

[Arugula Latte]

34. Agree, Deep13. You can't just put "faith" in a sealed vacuum container

and separate it from the real world and all the implications that stem from "faith."

[pokerfan]

38. the riddle of Epicurus...

[Lucian]

83. Like Epicurus said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

10. For the birds, not so much.

:*

[geardaddy]

14. Zing!

n/t

[LeftyFingerPop]

16. Zowie.

n/t

[JVS]

114. There is probably some goose out there now preaching that God is angry at the geese

He used his great power to smite them with an airplane

[TZ]

19. Here's my problem with this.

What about plane crashes with no survivors? Does that mean God hated the passengers? :shrug:

[LeftyFingerPop]

21. I have no idea.

Remember, just because I believe it was a miracle does not mean I believe in God.

Whether I do or don't is irrelevant to your beliefs though, as it should be.

[azmouse]

43. Maybe it was just time for those people to join God?

We all die. None us knows when. Would that mean that God hated all of us?
I don't think so. This is just how things are.

[pokerfan]

22. was it divine providence

that directed the geese into the engines in the first place?

[LeftyFingerPop]

23. No idea, was it? n/t

[pokerfan]

24. since I'm not a believer I don't have an opinion

Does yesterday's events mean that God liked the people on Airbus flight more than people who actually have died in airplane crashes? Like the way Tim Tebow feels that God helps him win football games. God must like Tim more than he likes Tim's opponents.

Or is this more of a Job scenario? Maybe Satan was controlling the geese and God was controlling the pilot. Maybe they roll dice beforehand to see who controls who. Maybe that is why it looks, I don't know, somewhat random as to who receives a miracle and who doesn't.

But that can't be right either because as we all know, God doesn't play dice with the universe. :)

[Deep13]

26. I agree.

You do think it was largely a miracle. Just what the significance is of thinking stuff without any basis in fact is another matter.

[LeftyFingerPop]

28. You're exactly correct.

No significance at all really. I just posted a belief. Others may and do disagree. That's fine.

[NJmaverick]

29. There were certainly elements of luck

there were no barges or ships in the way of the landing (the Hudson is quite busy). It was in a river with a ton of ferry boats (the perfect rescue craft in this case) and it wasn't during rush hour (which ment the ferries were not full of people, which would have had to been unloaded before they could come to the rescue).

[LeftyFingerPop]

32. Yes indeed.

In addition, if a newscaster chooses to call this a "miracle", I can decide for myself whether I think it is a miracle. If a newscaster says it is cold outside, I can walk outside and decide if I think it is cold.

The elements you mentioned above make me think "this was a miracle".

[mainegreen]

30. I would say it was miraculous, at least.

[Shell Beau]

47. I feel it was a miracle.

I like to believe in miracles.

[LeftyFingerPop]

48. Me too Shell, me too....

:hug:

Hey, your beautiful little one for example!

[Shell Beau]

49. Absolutely. I saw a miracle happen before my eyes.

If babies and birth aren't miracles, then I don't know what is.

[LeftyFingerPop]

50. Indeed. n/t

[crimsonblue]

77. babies and birth are the result of a biologic process.

fetal development is regulated by DNA, not God.

[LeftyFingerPop]

84. Oh fuuuuuuuuck lighten up man!!!!!!

[crimsonblue]

87. what? babies aren't miracles... they aren't even special...

If every birth is a "miracle", then miracles are meaningless.

[Shell Beau]

88. I am sorry. I just gave birth to my daughter, and it was a miracle.

You will never convince me that birth isn't miraculous.

[lildreamer316]

68. ...especially the one in your sig line, yes??

so sweet!!! :)

[Shell Beau]

91. Yes, thank you! She is my miracle.

[Solon]

51. Luck that nothing was in the way on the Hudson, and pilot's skill...

no more, no less. To claim its a miracle diminishes that actual human effort it took to actually guide the plane in a controlled manner which is what actually saved the lives of all those people.

[Shell Beau]

53. I diagree. I think the pilot skill was part of the miracle.

[Solon]

57. How does that work?

The pilot is experienced and well trained, not to mention he didn't panic, that's not evidence of divine intervention.

[Shell Beau]

79. No, the fact that it was that pilot that was there. Many other

pilots may not have been able to do what he did.


But you aren't going to convince me otherwise, nor I you.

[LeftyFingerPop]

54. No, I'm not diminishing the human effort. Relax, have a drink.

[Solon]

59. To claim it is a miracle seems to say that someone besides the pilot...

saved those people, or helped save them. I guess, if you want to attribute said miracle to Lady Luck, go ahead, but she's very fickle, so not to be relied on.

[LeftyFingerPop]

66. I think you are over-analyzing,

But, what the hell. Have at it.

[Lucian]

85. The plane was controlled by God's giant invisible hand.

There was no skilled pilot maneuvering the plane.

:crazy:

:eyes:

[emilyg]

52. Bet the people on that plane

think so, too.

[LeftyFingerPop]

56. Indeed emily.

:D

[PaddyBlueEyes]

60. Tell ya what though

The original 911 calls that they got...were scary as shit. People were watching a commercial airliner flying real low over the Hudson River heading toward lower Manhattan. People were freaking out...before it landed in the river.

[LeftyFingerPop]

61. Oh man, I bet...

I just recently drove from Long Island, through the Bronx, over the GWB, then upstate.

I am always in awe of that area.

I can't even imagine what that looked like....

[PaddyBlueEyes]

62. People were running

out of high rise buildings....

[LeftyFingerPop]

63. Really!!

So it was pretty visible from Manhattan... i mean with the timing and everything....

[PaddyBlueEyes]

64. Yeah

It came right down the river low and slow. If you were in building that had more than probably thirty floors on the west side of Manhattan, you saw the sucker come all the way down from the GWB...

[LeftyFingerPop]

65. Christ. n/t

[Iggo]

69. I don't believe in miracles....

....and I'm overwhelmingly happy that they made it!

Hope that doesn't bother the believers too much.

[LeftyFingerPop]

70. I'm happy too that they made it...

Christ, I really am! :hi:

[crimsonblue]

71. You're wrong.

So there.

[LeftyFingerPop]

73. What do you mean?

How can a belief be wrong?

[crimsonblue]

81. because belief is not based on fact

it's based on made up stories that have been manipulated for personal gain. To belief that "God" saved this plane is asinine. What "saved" the day was excellent aeronautical engineering and piloting skills.

[LeftyFingerPop]

95. God saved it. Period. End of story. n/t

[crimsonblue]

97. Can we at least agree that the FSM had to ring him up on the tely...

I mean, God was busy worshipping George Bush at the time.

[LeftyFingerPop]

99. No.

[crimsonblue]

101. You will come around...

You shall stair into his saucy meatballs and you shall weep beer from your pores. Then, you shall truly believe.

[LeftyFingerPop]

106. What meatballs?

[crimsonblue]

108. did I say meatballs?

[LeftyFingerPop]

118. Yes.

[crimsonblue]

121. sounds good. when do we eat?

[Lucian]

80. I see it as a really skilled pilot.

No miracle there.

[LeftyFingerPop]

82. ok. n/t

[crimsonblue]

86. Furthermore, calling things "miracles"

degrades the actual value of events. It reduces the abilities of man, and the random walk of life to some omnipotent deity. It takes a plunge of faith to willingly suspend rational thought.

[LeftyFingerPop]

89. You are talking to a veteran collegely educated drunk motherfucker....

Don't get me going on this shit, I've been through it too many times. You will not win. :hi:

[crimsonblue]

94. well make that two of us...

It's best you call it a draw; I can go all night, old man.

[Lucian]

90. It really annoys the hell out of me when people refer to births as "miracles".

The baby formed from a sperm and an egg. Chromosomes multiplied, the egg divided, and it formed a fetus. No miracle there. Just a natural biological process.

[LeftyFingerPop]

92. Biology is a miracle.

[Lucian]

93. No, it's not.

[LeftyFingerPop]

100. Sure it is.

[SallyMander]

102. Biology is a science. Science is the domain of NATURAL explanations.

As soon as you invoke a supernatural explanation (i.e., God), you have left the realm of science.

[LeftyFingerPop]

103. In what way, SallyMander?

:hi:

[SallyMander]

107. I think it is the simplest and most elegant definition of science

It was well-stated by Judge Jones, who presided over the Dover "intelligent design" case. This was his ruling on why ID didn't belong in a science classroom: ID requires that there be a "designer," which is by definition a supernatural being. Science seeks natural explanations for natural phenomena - thus any supernatural explanation does not belong in the science classroom. Philosophy, fine. Social studies, fine. Science, no way Jose.

Biology, then, by being a science, is constrained to the realm of the natural, and excludes supernatural phenomena like "miracles." You can think it's amazing and supercool (i do!), but it's still a science. That's all i meant.

:hi:

[Bill McBlueState]

119. I agree; why can't people name beauty when they see it?

A lot of people have this need to label "miraculous" everything that's beautiful. Why the need to invoke supernatural powers? Reality can be beautiful without any magic.

[Lucian]

124. Exactly.

[Lorien]

111. I don't. I think it was something more rare; competence. nt

[swishyfeet]

122. So, was it fairies?

Was it the almighty hand of God? Did he just grab the plane and set it down softly - or did he occupy the pilot's body and control the plane for him?

Did God just download the Airbus program - like in the Matrix? Do you suppose the pilot will be willing to admit that he wasn't controlling the plane at all? Will he lose his license if he does?

If you're unwilling to accept the reality based causes, at least provide some details.

[LeftyFingerPop]

126. OK. Here are some details....

Jesus Christ! Did you see that plane land in the Hudson?

Yeah man, that was a fucking miracle.

Yep.

Whew.

[swishyfeet]

127. I was starting to like my Matrix hypothesis

Tank, I need a program for an Airbus A300!