Geeky Star Trek question

[kay1864]

(as opposed to non-geeky Star Trek question :P)

Had this random thought whilst driving a few months ago...

Came across this quote from Star Trek IV:
-----------------------------------------------------------
McCoy: C'mon Spock, it's me, McCoy. You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?
Spock: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference.
McCoy: You mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death?
-----------------------------------------------------------

BUT...can Spock really remember what death is like?

His katra shouldn't, since it's only up to the moment before he entered the radiation chamber, when he 'left a copy' in McCoy's brain.

And the 'Genesis-version' Spock, well, he was rebuilt from scratch from the Genesis effect, growing quickly from infancy to adulthood, and appeared to have no memory at all until his katra was restored.

So how can Spock claim knowledge of the death experience?

(toldja it was geeky...)

[NJmaverick]

1. He was messing with McCoy, which he was prone to do

[arcadian]

2. It's written in the script.

[pokerfan]

3. I suspect

that you have already put more thought into this than the writers did.

[kay1864]

6. I have

a lot of free time when sitting in traffic :hi:

[CreekDog]

4. oh yeah that's geeky

having the answer would be geekier. :hug:

[kay1864]

7. Hence my posting in the Lounge

Are all the Trek geeks only here at night?

[harmonicon]

5. Star Trek IV is just plain awful?

Isn't that explanation enough?

[kay1864]

8. Bzzzzt! Wrong. Thanks for playing.

It's definitely in the top tier of Trek movies, with Wrath of Khan and First Contact.

Great story that (for once) gives all the cast a chance to shine, environmental message, humor, and imminent devastation of the Earth. What's not to love?

[pokerfan]

9. Allow me to retort

"Double dumb-ass on you!"



:hi:

[DarkTirade]

10. I believe that was an opportune time for a 'colorful metaphor'.

[pokerfan]

12. It seems like no one on DU pays you any attention unless you swear every other word

[kay1864]

14. Or unless you quote the collected works of Jacqueline Susann,

the novels by Harold Robbins...

[pokerfan]

18. Ah yes..... The giants.

[pokerfan]

16. delete

[Deep13]

11. The second brain remembered it.

It was still working even before McCoy returned his marbles.

[kay1864]

13. And yet it had no other memories?

*That* brain was dead. No electrical impulses. Its only memories were those formed after Spock's 'rebirth', on the Genesis planet, and during transport to Vulcan.

[Deep13]

15. If the second body was alive, the brain had to be working. nt

[kay1864]

19. To recap:

Spock died in radiation chamber on the Enterprise.
Body dead, non-activity brain. No thoughts, no memories--dead.

Dead body soft-landed on Genesis planet.
Body 'reborn' from infancy to adulthood in a short period, from Genesis effect.
Brain forming memories only from the time on the planet forward.
Brain now working, body now working.
Katra implanted.

[pokerfan]

17. Yeah! Spock II didn't even know what Pon'far was!

[kay1864]

Rampant fannish speculation at the time said he went through Pon Farr on Genesis

After all, he went through puberty in a short time there...Vulcan hormones kicked in. IIRC in the movie Saavik was holding him during his pain of his body maturing so rapidly.

And hence the fannish reason that Saavik stayed on Vulcan... was that she was pregnant.



(Rob Schneider voice) Spock and Saa-vik...getting their groove on...

[pokerfan]

28. I did not see any sex between them

just some finger-banging.

:hide:

[kay1864]

31. Vulcan foreplay

That there was Trek porn you was watchin', perv.

:patriot:

[pokerfan]

32. And in a PG movie no less!

[tigereye]

21. wouldn't you think that Vulcan brains would have special qualities enabling

them to recall things even while in a different state of being?

[kay1864]

23. If the 'state of being' is dead, no

Clinically dead means no brain activity. McCoy wouldn't have allowed him to be buried if there was even a smidgen of electrical impulse left.

As for supernatural 'memory storage', well then, why the need for a katra if your memories exist elsewhere?

[tigereye]

27. only in humans!

Hmm raises interesting question about the different between a "mind," what a spirit could be and what a katra would be. You could conceivably argue that Vulcan brain death would not be the death of the spirit /memories if this ability to transfer the katra exists. Weren't there also a few Star Treks DS9 where one race kept stealing people's souls/memories/ spirits when they "died" in order to house them?

From the wiki link I just looked up in a fit of' Friday and little work to do' geekiness, "In several Trek novels, reference is made to a chamber within Mount Seleya known as the "Hall of Ancient Thought". In the Hall are thousands of receptacles (katric arks) containing the katras of the greatest and most powerful Vulcan minds throughout history. Vulcan scholars, philosophers, and mystics could petition to be permitted to meld with these katras for research or enlightenment."


This discussion could become fascinatingly metaphysical if you start including info from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc.

[kay1864]

29. AFAIK

the "spirit /memories" you speak of *are* the katra.

And Spock's katra was transferred before his death.

[tigereye]

34. right, but lots of cultures posit this type of thing...

That the body is only one part of existence, and that the spirit, etc. can exist separate from the body. Not a common view of Western medicine, of course.



In the convolution of discussion I have forgotten what your initial actual question was - but for me one question would be, how could someone actually be dead if their essence, etc. could be transferred to another? Looking up above to your initial question, something that could transcend the body could easily get memories despite the body being "dead,"

Since it's all narrative anyway, there's no reason that couldn't be the answer. :rofl:

[tigereye]

20. he's a Vulcan!

no, sorry, I have no idea, even though I am a Star Trek geek, I'm not quite as much of one as you are!



I really like discussing geeky philosophical points from Babylon 5, though.

[kay1864]

25. Okay, so G'Kar is about to die, but before he does,

he puts a copy of his memories into Dr. Franklin's brain...

Does that help?

:P

[pokerfan]

30. is it a copy or is it a transference?

The uber-geeks at Memory Alpha have an entry for http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Katra">katra.

[kay1864]

33. I was writing a reply...

but the geeks at MA already did it for me:

It is possible that katra transfers are not complete transfers but rather a copying of information, much like copying a file rather than moving it. Spock was fully functional with all his memories after the transference of his katra to Doctor McCoy which would not be possible if everything he was mentally was completely removed.



(in Vulcan this is known as p'wned :hi:)

[Orsino]

22. It's dramatically appropriate.

Like the maximum speed Enterprise can muster just before a commercial break, or the untimely breakdown of the transporter. It also honors the old gaming dictum, "Always err on the side of awesome."

[Deja Q]

24. 1864 = the numbers on the USS RELIANT

:D

[kay1864]

26. Ding ding ding!

You're the first to guess that without a prompt. Congrats! You get the Trek Geek Award of the day.

Now if you guess "kay" you get a triple gold star.