Religious Question...

[LeahMira]

HELP!!! My boss wants information about the correlation between religious "membership" and religious" preference." For example, are there Christians who would state that they are Presbyterian in preference, yet would attend and be members of a Methodist church? How do churches determine "membership"? Are there any set of behaviors that would identify someone as a "member" of a particular church? For instance, a Jewish person might participate in a Passover Seder as a demonstration of Jewish religious preference but at the same time not be a member of a synagogue. Are there differences between and among the different branches of a religion, such as Southern Baptist and "regular" Baptist? Are there crossovers within the "Protestant" umbrella?

Anyone have any idea where on the web I might find data or statistics about this sort of thing?

Anyone care to try to explain exactly what the differences between the Protestant denominations are? I'm Jewish, so really don't know that much about specifics here.

Thanks!

[Az]

1. You are going to have difficulty finding the truth on this one

Once a church gets you on their roster it can be near impossible to get off it. A notable case involved a man who was raised Catholic but after he found he no longer believed asked to be removed from their books. They refused. He tried all manner of things including attempting to get excommunicated (he blasphemed the name of god in front of the congregation). It took a law suit to get them to strike his name from their books.

My fiance, an avowed atheist and member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation, still gets newsletters from the Christian church she attended in her youth. This despite repeated attempt to tell them that she is no longer interested in or a beleiver of their faith.

Churches use their numbers as a representation of their effectiveness. In sects with larger organizational structures their numbers factor into their funding. Thus letting go of someone is not in their interest and there is the factor that they believe they are fighting for their soul.

The numbers you will find in researching this will be hopelessly tainted.

[Liberal Christian]

10. Not always true

In denominations where churches pay per capita dues to the wider church in order to fund the regional and national ministries of the church as well as the world mission, churches very often prune their membership rolls on a regular basis.

It only makes sense to remove people who are no longer participating -- unless, of course, they are shut-ins, deployed military personnel, or students attending college away from home and clearly still identify as part of that congregation. It also makes sense to remove anyone from the rolls who requests it so that you don't end up paying to send newsletters, mailings, etc to people who have no interest in them.

[SOteric]

19. Exactly so Wyomee. The local parish of the Catholic church

where I attend services prunes their membership every year at about this time (as catechuminates prepare for baptism and confirmation, so, too, to they trim the roles). And at least quarterly, there is an appeal to the members of the parish to contact those who've been absent for lengthy periods, or who are known to worship elsewhere and ask them to phone the church office and confirm or reliquensh their membership. No campaign is launched to retain the members, it's a simple desire to accurately reflect the membership and an effort to forward stewardship information to those most likely to respond.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Actually, in the Episcopal Church, numbers are a two-edged sword

Having large numbers means you get more delegates at the diocesan convention. However, it also means that you are required to pay your priest more, so if you have 1000 people on the rolls and only 500 people actually attending and contributing, it's to your advantage to prune the rolls.

[trotsky]

2. Oh my, you have your work cut out for you.

I grew up Protestant (Lutheran) and even I couldn't begin to tell you what differentiates the various sects. I'm an atheist now, so it matters even less to me.

You might find numbers of people who are members of one flavor of church, yet attend another because of their spouse, extended family, or maybe just the location. Or the music! Really, I don't know how you would get accurate figures.

Maybe check the Yellow Pages for some of the bigger churches in your area, and ask their office. They might have some leads.

[regnaD kciN]

23. No kidding...

It might be possible to come up with semi-reliable numbers about denominational membership (although, as others have noted, there's crucial differences in how that is calculated from denomination to denomination, and even from church to church in a given denomination). For example, at this moment, I am officially a member of two Episcopal churches, since the one I currently attend added me to their roles without having my name deleted from the previous parish (which I didn't want to do). And that's not counting my membership in a small "house-church" denomination, the Apostolic Catholic Church in America.

However, when it comes to getting figures on denominational preference...sorry, but I don't think you'll find anything other than to fall back on membership figures. And trying to draw some sort of correlation would be headache-inducing.

[Cheswick2.0]

3. try Belief Net

but remember that regardless of denomination, different congregations have different characters.
As a Presbyterian, would I join a methodist church? Sure I would, if the Presby church in town was conservative or snobby.

[Az]

4. Was just gonna recommend that site

I believe there is a chart maintained there (I think its there) detailing the primary differences between various sects and beliefs.

[TXlib]

5. KCDem and I moved from Kansas City to Houston in August 2002.

We still get newsletters and offering envelopes from them. They even have our correct address, after two moves.

They obviously know we are no longer in the area.

[Lars39]

6. Here's a few baptist sites: (Good Luck!)

American, Southern and Freewill do not necessarily belong to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. Jimmy Carter left the SB for the American Baptists, who do belong to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. And then there's all the little splinter groups... :silly:

American Baptists
http://www.abc-usa.org/

Southern Baptists
http://www.sbc.net/

Freewill Baptist
http://www.nafwb.org/

Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
http://www.nafwb.org/

[forgethell]

7. About Baptists

I can tell you this, they are all pretty much the same theologially, although this is not strictly true. The thing about Baptists is that they will separate at the drop of a hat. Don't like the preacher? Move your membership or start our own church. Don't like the organist's new hair-do> Start your own church. The Southern Baptists separated from the Northern Baptists long ago. there have been several splits from the nothern Baptists since, for example the copnservative Baptists. My understanding is that the moderate Baptists that disagreed with the Southern Baptist Convention some years back is finally going to form a separate denomination. The southern Baptists are in the process of withdrawing from the world Baptist Alliance due to doctrinal differences.

Then there are the Baptists which really are somewhat different. The Primitive Baptists spring to mind. they don't believe in Sunday School or evangelizing. They refer to the other kind of Baptist as 'missionary Baptists". I believe, but am not quite sure, there may even be a convention of that name.

Then there are the independent Baptist churches, unaffiliated with any convention. Again, I believe, but am not quite sure, that Jerry Falwell's church falls in this category. Then some churches may be affiliated with more than one convention.

[truthspeaker]

22. an additional tidbit:

The Southern Baptists split from the American Baptists over slavery. Many decades later the Southern Baptists renounced slavery (this was long after the Civil War; 20th Century I think). The Southern Baptists were always "conservative" on issues like long hair, sexuality, segregation, and inter-racial marriage, but it wasn't until the 1980s that an even more socially conservative group started to take over the convention and start pressing for returning mandatory prayer to schools, stressing the doctrines of wives submitting to husbands and women not speaking in church or being in authority to men, and other morsels of Biblical love. My girlfriend's parents belong to a Southern Baptist church but their pastor rejects the most odious of the SBC's official doctrines.

[supernova]

8. Depends entirely on the sect

what it's membership rules are.

I'm PCUSA and our churches pay dues to the district level organization based on "active" and "inactive" members, so it's in our best interest to keep church membership rolls up to date with who is "active" v "inactive" or moved on.

And no, you wouldn't know I'm a member of a presby church unless I told you. We don't have any distinguishing behaviors.

As to thinking one thing and belonging to an organization that espouses something else, you could say I'm in that boat. While I belong to a Presby church, my theologicial thinking is somewhere between Quaker and UU and Buddhist philosophy. But PCUSA is a very philosophically diverse group, this sometimes results in acrimonious denominational fights. I don't have answer.

I guess I think your boss's request is too broad. I would ask him what he hopes to accomplish?

[LeahMira]

13. Thanks to all, and keep it coming... here's more specifics

I guess I think your boss's request is too broad. I would ask him what he hopes to accomplish?

Like many of the professorial persuasion, he hopes to accomplish a scholarly article.

Again, I start from a Jewish perspective, but hope you can sort of extrapolate from there. We have Jewish people who say that they are Orthodox Jews, and they attend an Orthodox synagogue. Then there are those who identify as Orthodox, but attend a Reform synagogue, maybe because it's the only synagogue in town or for possibly some other reason. Still others self-identify as Orthodox but don't belong to any synagogue, maybe because the synagogue dues is too expensive, or maybe because they don't like the Rabbi. Whatever...

When he studied the Jewish population, the purpose was to help Jewish organizations to plan for future needs. For instance, the Jewish population is getting older these days, so we will have to put money and resources into senior citizen homes and also in to activity programs that appeal to seniors. If that aging population were Orthodox, we would also need to plan to meet their needs like for kosher meals (as one example), whereas a kosher meal might not be important to Reform or Secular Jews. But that was our need for information.

At this point, I think he is just more or less surveying the non-Jewish religious territory to possibly find some patterns with relation to demnominational preference and denominational affiliation.

[regnaD kciN]

25. That's interesting...

I never considered the "only church in town" aspect (although I can all-too-well remember a Sunday travelling through Utah where I tried to find an Episcopal parish I could attend, only to find that the closest one was about halfway on the other side of the state) or the "believer but not affiliated with any denomination" question. I still don't know how you'd ferret out the information, though, without running your own survey (which I'm sure you have neither the time, resources, nor inclination to do).

[regnaD kciN]

24. Really...?

And no, you wouldn't know I'm a member of a presby church unless I told you. We don't have any distinguishing behaviors.

You mean, you don't carry a copy of Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" with you at all times???

I'm shocked!

;-)

FOR THOSE NOT ATTUNED TO DENOMINATIONAL DIFFERENCES: The above is a joke.

[Liberal Christian]

9. They're probably basically the same thing

"Preference" is a more open-ended way to say "affiliation" or "membership." Someone might, for instance, say "I was raised Methodist, but I haven't belonged to a church for many years, so I have no affiliation or membership. However, if I were to go to a church, I'd probably go to a Methodist church."

I would say "membership" means that you have actually agreed to be a member of a specific worshiping community. "Affiliation" has the same connotation.

[LeahMira]

15. That's closer...

Someone might, for instance, say "I was raised Methodist, but I haven't belonged to a church for many years, so I have no affiliation or membership. However, if I were to go to a church, I'd probably go to a Methodist church."

But do the "organized" Methodists consider you a Methodist, or would they consider you a non-Methodist? Do you have to be a formal member of a particular congregation to be a Methodist?

For instance, there are Jews who self-identify as Orthodox, and if they went to a synagogue they would probably find an Orthodox synagogue to attend, but they don't belong to any synagogue. For purposes of his survey, they were labeled "Secular Jews."

It seems like each group has its own criteria for how they view church membership.

I intend to pass on your comments to him when he gets back from wherever he is at the moment. I've also been googling all over the place this afternoon, but I'll check back again to see if anyone has more insights to offer.

Thanks a bunch!

[Liberal Christian]

18. Denominational identification

I belong to a United Church of Christ congregation. I was baptized in the Congregational Church, a predecessor body to the UCC. I've not been a member of a church in any other denomination. I would identify strongly as a UCC member. If, for some reason, I left the UCC, I might join a Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, or Episcopal church. I might start calling myself a Presbyterian, etc., but it might take a long time before I really identified with the denomination.

Many people in the UCC come to us from other traditions -- Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Methodist, mostly, but a smattering of everything. Sometimes they say, "I'm a UCC member." More often, they say, "I belong to First UCC on Main St." There tends in many places to be a stronger affiliation with the local church than with the denomination. At least in the UCC, which has a high understanding of local autonomy.

Within the groupings that I discussed in another post, though, there tends to be some mobility. We tend to have similar worship styles and similar theology, though there are some differences. There are fairly large differences in how the denominations are organized, the polity governing local churches, and other issues of ecclesiology. People who don't get involved in the inner workings of their churches may not have a deep awareness of what it means to say they are (insert name of denomination here).

I think you're more likely to see close identification with denomination in Roman Catholic, Orthodox, some Anglican. You'll see more identification with broad principles of theology and scripture in churches coming from the Reformed/Calvinist tradition. You'll see a different kind of identification with theological principles and scriptural awareness in churches coming from the churches from the Anabaptist and Great Awakening traditions.

I wish I could give you a firmer answer. There's a lot of mobility among denominations, but that mobility tends to confine itself to the larger theological grouping. Basically, folks tend to seek out like-minded folks unless there's a compelling reason to alter one's mindset.

[silverlib]

20. I can help with the Methodist part...

Methodists take people off membership roles after three years of non-participation, which means members did not attend a function at the church, donate or correspond by telephone or in writing. Other denominations, as mentioned above, have different views on this. Some say "once a member, always a member." It just like politics - it depends on how you count. Some organized religions state their memberships are higher in comparison to others, but it's all in how you count. (kinda like unemployment figures)

Methodist's generally maintain a "Friends of the Church" list, which list people who attend, donate, correspond, but are not members. Perhaps the Jewish synagogues do the same. That would help your cause.

Good luck - sounds like a mighty big, but worthy project.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Tall order!

Different denominations have different criteria for determining membership.

In the Lutheran and Episcopal churches, you become a member of your first parish by baptism (either as a child or as an adult convert) and confirmation or by "reception" from one of a short list of other denominations.

After that, you are on that parish's rolls until you say otherwise, but in the Lutheran church, you may be removed from the "active" rolls unless you either take Communion or make a financial contribution at least once within the year. (Lutherans fill out cards before taking Communion, so it's easy to keep track.) Episcopalians do not keep track of who takes Communion, but the last parish I was in periodically went through its membership rolls and noticed that certain people on it had died or moved away or were known to be involved with a different church.

If you leave your original church for whatever reason and join another one within the same denomination, the standard procedure is to ask the clergyperson for a letter of transfer. You are then taken off the rolls of your first parish and added to the rolls of the new parish.

When I changed denominations (from Lutheran to Episcopalian), I wrote a letter to the pastor of the Lutheran church I had last attended and explained my decision. Then I became a member of my new Episcopal church through reception. In the Episcopal Church, any clergyperson (indeed, any layperson) can perform a baptism, but the diocesan bishop visits each parish at least once a year to perform confirmations and receptions.

During the time I was undecided about my affiliation (a period of about ten years), I attended both Lutheran and Episcopal churches for up to two years at a time without joining officially.

So I guess that answer is that you can be on the parish's official rolls, and you can attend the church regularly, and you may do both, but you don't necessarily do both.

[Liberal Christian]

14. VERY VERY General Schematic

I'm doing this from what I remember since most of my books are at my office. So, this will be writ in sweeping generalities and is open to suggestion for clarification. Just don't beat me up, please :)

===

First, there was only one community. In Antioch, during the early first century CE, they began to be called "Christian."

In 1054, the Great Schism divided the Christian community into the Orthodox Church (including Eastern, Greek, Armenian, Coptic, Russian Orthodox) and the Church of Rome.

In 1517, Martin Luther nailed the 95 theses to the church door at Wittenberg and began, without intending to, the Protestant Reformation.

Also in the 1500s, other strands of dissent and reformation occurred -- John Calvin, Anabaptists, Arminius, and the Church of England.

Most non-Roman and non-Orthodox denominations today owe their beginnings to one of these general strands of tradition.

Grouped together as "Protestant" -- Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Reformed Church in America, Christian Reformed Church, United Church of Christ, maybe a few others. These generally, though not exclusively, practice infant baptism, believe that the scriptures are open to more than one way of interpreting, tend not to be Biblical literalists (though the Christian Reformed Church is somewhat more inerrantist in its approach to scripture) etc. Generally speaking, there is a stronger focus on living a just and decent life here on earth as a way to draw closer to God in your daily walk and less emphasis on "getting to heaven."

From the Anabaptist tradition -- Baptist, Mennonite, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Amish, Church of Christ, Church of the Brethren, some Pentecostal denominations. These denominations tend to be very independent. The congregations are autonomous, self-governing. (This is also true of some in the above category.) They usually practice "believer's baptism," in which each person makes his or her own confession of faith and is then baptized, usually by full immersion. In some of these traditions, there is a strong emphasis on future life -- "getting to heaven" and living a moral life now so that you will be rewarded later. Scripture tends to be read in a "literal" and inerrantist fashion.

Anglican -- Church of England, Episcopalian, Continuing Anglican, Anglican Catholic. These are all offshoots of the church Henry VIII formed in protest of Rome. The liturgy tends to be very similar to the Roman church in many places. Some branches of this tradition are very liberal; others are not.

Others -- The Great Awakening and the Second Great Awakening in the United States produced a number of evangelical, pentecostal, fundamentalist, and holiness churches. I am not as familiar with how they are constructed, but they do tend to be Scriptural inerrantists and literalists, conservative, and focused toward the end times. Some of these might include Assembly of God, Church of the Nazarene, Foursquare Gospel, Vineyard. There are many, many more than that. Pentecostal churches are marked by a strong theology of the Holy Spirit and the practice of speaking in tongues.

As I said, this is a very cursory overview. I freely admit sweeping generalities are not all that helpful at times and are often incorrect. I'm just trying to provide a little data that might help the original poster begin to sort through the maze of Christian denominationalism.

[regnaD kciN]

26. Good summary...

My only complaint would be, in the Anglican section, where you mention "the church Henry VIII formed." The fact is that Henry formed no church -- instead, in the midst of the controversy over the possible annulment of his first marriage, Henry pressured the Bishops of the (English) Catholic Church to break off diplomatic ties with the Vatican, and deny Rome any jurisidiction over the English church. However, it remained what it was before, the Catholic Church in England. Over the course of the next fifty years, it was (forcibly) reconciled to Rome during the reign of Queen Mary, then broke off ties again under Elizabeth I. But it never was a "new" church in the way that the Lutheran or Reformed denominations were -- to the point where "Anglo-Catholics" can still justifiably argue that they, not the Roman Catholics, are the true Catholic Church in the U.K.

[Liberal Christian]

27. Thanks for the Anglican history correction

As I said, I was winging it, so I'm glad for better specifics :)

[CTLawGuy]

16. It depends on the rules of the church

I am a Lutheran, and we accept anyone who is baptized into memebership. Anyone who wants to join goes through a short training on Lutheran theology and is prepared for baptism (if it wasnt done to them before at another church) Lutherans will accept any baptism in any church. Anyone can attend a church service (my jewish ex-gf used to come).



As to protestant denominations, most of the differences are in practice. Fundie churches, for example, do not serve wine for communion, (they serve grape juice) whereas Lutherans do. Kids as young as 12 can drink wine in our ceremonies. We Lutherans believe we should follow Jesus teachings as exactly as possible.

Some protestant churches are liberal and others are conservative. The liberal ones (Lutherans (most of them), Methodists, and Congregationalists, for example, and any black church) tend to focus on love and charity, and Jesus' message of peace and forgiveness. Liberal churches opposed the Iraq War, for example.

Conservative (fundie) churches (Baptist, Independent churches, "Bible" Churches, etc) focus on personal moral behavior, rather than behavior towards others. They oppose homosxuality, abortion, sex before marriage etc.

this is a rushed and cursory explanation. Feel free to add to or correct.

[Liberal Christian]

17. Just one correction

It's not just fundamentalist churches who sometimes use grape juice instead of wine for communion. Many UCC, Presbyterian, Methodist, and other more mainstream or liberal churches either use grape juice or a choice of grape juice or wine instead of wine alone. This is partially sensitivity to people who have addiction issues, allergy issues, and other reasons not to drink wine. Part of it probably also is a legacy from the old days of the WCTU and their campaign against alcohol.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Growing up as a Lutheran preacher's kid

I can explain about the wine/grape juice.

The Lutherans tend to distribute the wine in little cups that come on a tray with holes. By custom, the cups on the innermost circle were filled with grape juice, and recovering alcoholics or people on meds that were incompatible with alcohol took their glasses from there.

The Episcopalians tend to use a common cup. If you don't want to drink from it, you can dip your bread in the wine. If you don't want the wine at all, you cross your arms over your chest.