I just got back from seeing The Passion of the Christ...

[YellowRubberDuckie]

And there are no words. We drove home in complete silence. Wish I could say I had fun, but how can you say you had fun watching a reenactment of your Savior being killeD?
Duckie

[Stupdworld]

1. finally

that's the reaction i was looking for on here.

this movie is not about mel or jews or left/right. there is a much bigger picture involved. and its personal to everyone who sees the film.


but of course we are "fundies" who must be mocked and derided for our beliefs.

[anti_shrub]

2. Cause Lord knows christians are so persecuted

Seeing how they run the country and control the public discourse to the point where Presidential candidates are reduced to being asked if God likes America.


Honestly, I hold no ill will toward Christians (I used to be one) but try living as a non believer in a increasingly Theocratic society and get back to me about the poor picked on Christians.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

4. I agree...

But I don't think that's what he/she was saying. I think some people are just tired of hearing about contraversy. That's not what this is about. It's something taken from the bible and put onto the big screen. And I do think you're right about what you said, anti_shrub. But I also think that sometimes people here are a little anti christian, to the point that some people feel alienated to be here and express their beliefs. And if we don't stop doing that, the freepers win. I think we should all be open minded. And if someone don't like what someone else is writing, ignore it.
Duckie

[scottcsmith]

5. From the bible?

Which of the Gospels tells the parable of the kitchen table? You know, where Jesus invents the first kitchen table. And which of the four gospels describes Jewish children turning into demons that terrorize Judas? I couldn't find that in any of the Gospels, either.

This isn't about the bible and attacks on Christians. This is all about Mel Gibson and his interpretation of the Gospels. This is his vision of the Passion. Christians seem to be confused on this point.

[aquart]

9. "Kitchen table"???

So, were there loaves and fishes on it?

[YellowRubberDuckie]

20. I meant the crucifixion itself..

The other stories intertwined was to show a playful, happy man....
Duckie

[anti_shrub]

6. The root of the problem

Is that, unfortunately, the most obnoxious of the right wing wraps themselves in the Bible just like the do with the flag.

People here don't clarify enough that its the RW assholes they bash and rant on, and not the Christian philosophy they claim they follow.

As far as the movie goes, to me it just comes off as stereotypically Catholic...focusing on the pain and suffering (and by proxy, guilt) instead of Jesus's real message of love and peace, and hope by the resurrection.

By comparison, Schindler's List was about a subject far more brutal and depressing yet it probably only had 1/8 the violence. Did it make the film less powerful? Of course not. There was no need to show slow motion scenes of every Jew suffering in the camps, just like I feel there was no need to show slow motion scenes of Jesus being beaten.

IMO, if Mel had told more of the story of Jesus's life leading up to his arrest, instead of devoting much of the film to showing the brutality of something everyone realized was brutal beforehand, it quite possibly could have been the greatest movie ever made.

[Vernunft II]

16. "people feel alienated to be here and express their beliefs."

I´m sorry to barge in like that but that´s the point. The constant urge to express their religious believes is something that irks me to no end. Your religion to me is medieval superstition. I´m not posting about that left and right because I respect people and their faith but just because I don´t speak up against it on every turn doesn´t mean I like to hear about it. Keep the preaching to yourself and we´ll be fine, after all this is a political board, not a religious one.

[Red State Rebel]

21. A little anti-Christian? hehe

Just look at any of these threads....a lot of people are very anti-Christian on this site.

[absyntheNsugar]

7. Well there are a lot of us who were hurt by Christianity

If you're interested there is a thread on this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x846584

Many of us were hurt by Christianity, and so when something comes along like this movie, our stomach tightens up and we go through the same fear, pain and anguish all over again.

[Az]

18. There was never any doubt

that believers would be stunned by the impact of this movie. That is the point. Its like playing with fire. This is evangelyzing on a level that has never been achieved before. And it is the most violent and dramatic moment in the entire canon. Now add history. Toss in the marketting of nails. Now do you wanna be driving around in a car with this on it?

My car has been keyed, pamphletted, bibled. I have had stickers stolen, defaced, and moved. I have been followed, flipped off, and shouted at. I have friends that have been chased off the road for nothing more than a darwin fish.

By no means do I assume all Christians react in this way. But Gibson's film is designed to do one thing. Inflame the passion of those that believe. It is designed to insense them to those that reject the suffering that the film portrays. This is not a good idea in a diverse society. And now they have pointy nails. I truly hope they are only used as jewelry.

[Faygo Kid]

3. I respect that, but will wait for "The Message of the Christ."

Mel's vision is St. Paul's, I guess, but I don't want to be brutalized. When the Right focuses on Christ's message (the Beatitudes), we will all be better off here. The other is singularly up to each of us individually to ponder.

[foo_bar]

8. Mel's vision is Anne Catherine Emmerich's

though I didn't see her screenwriter credit at the end. She was a 19th century nun whose visions (or hallucinations, depending on your sectarian perspective) were recorded and later published as "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ". These tales comprise the bulk of the film's "that wasn't in the Gospels!" moments, and historians concur that her account was primarily influenced by the gory medieval plays of her time (by historians I mean Jesuits ;)). So we're basically watching a third-hand iteration of Inquisition-era drama, which is admittedly more compelling than the Orthodox can offer in the theatrical department.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Got a link for historians (Jesuit or otherwise) saying an

19th century nun was watching "gory medieval plays of her time" and "Inquisition-era drama"?

Mel says he was influenced by the mystical tone of her book but the plot basics all come from the New Testament, from the four Gospels. Conspired against by Caiphas and the Sanhedrin? Check. Betrayed by Judas? Check. Scourged by the Roman soldiers? Check. Tried before Pontius Pilate? Check. The crowd called for the death of Jesus and the relief of the thief Barabbas? Check. Forced to carry his own cross, Jesus "was crucified, died, and was buried"? Check. I believe the film gives some time to the " On the third day He rose from the dead, He ascended into Heaven, He sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty ."

All I've heard about that was extraneous to the Gospels is the presence of St. Veronica (long tradition for her wiping Jesus's face with a cloth) and Pilate's wife giving Mary towels to wipe up the blood of Jesus, which I think may have come from Sister Emmerlich's visions. I haven't seen the movie yet, so I don't know how the androgynous demon works, but I suspect it's an effective device. Jesus did confront Satan in the wilderness and cast out quite a few demons, so there's precedent to have Satan or a demon at the Crucifixion, though I don't recall any of the Gospel writers saying it.

[foo_bar]

14. I'm afraid I can't link to conversations

although I'm furiously scouring the interweb as we type. The medieval/Inquisition dramas in question obviously predate the 19th century as Shakespeare predates ours, so read "of her time" as "presented in her time" (that's Emmerich's time, not (Roland?) Emmerlich's time).

Okay, here's one:

The visions often draw from medieval legends and travelers’ tales, claims Sandra Miesel, a Catholic journalist who has researched Emmerich. For example, Emmerich describes the cross as being made out of five kinds of wood, as in medieval legend. Emmerich also describes Bible characters with "fantastic clothing and hairstyles that owe more to late medieval German art than to the actual fashions of Antiquity," writes Miesel in an article for Catholic International.
http://www.belief.net/story/139/story_13958_1.html

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Since St. Paul didn't write the Gospels, I don't think Mel's message

is St. Paul''s. I have my problems with St. Paul, too, but he wwasn't present at the Crucifixion. Mel's depoction comes from the Crucifixion accounts in the four Gospels according to Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, with some non-Biblical scenes from the visions of Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich, a mystic and stigmatic. Mel was very influenced in his personal religious journey, he says, by a book that details her visions. From descriptions of what occurs, it sounds to me as if the movie is mostly based on what the Gospels say, though.

Bottom line is that you're complaining that Gibson didn't make the movie you think he should have, rather than seeing the film he did make and judging it on its artistic merits.

Like all directors, Mel Gibson gets to choose the scripts he'll direct. He thought it was important to really get the message of how Jesus died, the sacrifice he made of his own life. Most of us would rather see the pretty pictures shown in Sunday School books but maybe this film will increase interest in what Jesus taught in the pretty books, like the Beatitudes you wish were included here. Maybe people will start to think about the oppressive and cruel Herod, the Roman governor who was so frightened to hear that the King of the Jews had been born that he ordered that every Jewish male up to the age of two years should be slaughtered. During the Renaissance and Middle Ages, artists depicted the horror of that event, the Massacre of the Holy Innocents., in gory and disgusting detail.

The walls of churches that date back to those times feature paintings of Jesus the wandering preacher and other "safe" and pretty topics, but also depict not only Jesus scourged and crucified but the damned suffering the torments of hell. In the Sistine Chapel, one end wall is covered with a Last Judgement by Michelangelo, who included a portrait of himself as a skin removed from the body and being held in such a way that his facial features can be recognized. Mel did a similar thing in "Passion" -- he plays the Roman soldier who nails Jesus to the cross. Like Michelangelo, he makes a public statement of his sinfulness and failures by including himself that way. It's a bit egotistical, too, for both of them, but still it represents a confession.

Lots to think about in his story, and in the reactions to it!

[truthspeaker]

15. You say St. Paul wasn't present at the crucifixion

but most scholars agree neither were Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. It bothers me when people call the movie "historically accurate" when we have no firsthand accounts of the crucifixion, and the accounts we do have were intended to express spiritual messages, not historically accurate narratives. The crucifixion might have happened much as it was portrayed in this movie, or it might have happened very differently, or it might not have happened at all.

[Torgo4]

19. Paul Never Wrote Anything About Jesus' Life

Paul never met Jesus in the flesh and didn't seem to know anything about his earthly experience.
Paul seemed solely concerned with the spiritual Jesus...a far cry from glorifying a torture death!

[aquart]

11. Re-enactment or revision?

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=38120#38121>

Yes, I'm worried that Mel Gibson's version of Christ's death is your version. And that you accept it without question.

[WilliamPitt]

13. *cough*

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/022704A.shtml

[Solomon]

17. The movie is extremely "accurate" because

Jesus looks just like Tom Cruise.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

22. Y'all know I'm not religious...

But I do believe in God and Christ and everything that goes with that. But I'm wary of the bible as it makes my God look like a horrible entity. I don't believe in Organized religion because it's just a business, a profitting machine that doesn't help anyone anymore. But I'm not anti Christian, Anti Athiest, etc.

Why is this place so anti Christian? I know we're anti Freeper, but why can't you be a Christian and still be a democrat? A very Liberal Democrat like myself? I support gay marriage, abortion in cases other than using it as birth control, and I believe that my God embraces all people...not just a select few. We talk about tolerance and love and peace, but I guess that's only for minorities, atheists and homosexuals. Don't go halfway with stuff like that. Going all the way and being tolerant of ALL PEOPLE, ALL RELIGIONS...EVERYONE!
IF we don't, what are we but hypocrites?
Duckie

[Az]

23. Lets work it out

What do you see as antichristian behaviour. Perhaps those presenting such behaviour do not intend it that way and need to be made aware of what they are saying is doing.

Do not forget that Christianity with its organized structures comes with a lot of baggage. Other groups have their own baggage as well but our history is particularly rife with examples of Christian organizations bring the pain to entire nations and peoples. Our calendars and holidays are all that remains of some religions they have bumped heads with.

Would you ask the blacks to not be concerned about groups that have historically oppressed them? People tend to be wary of groups that have a history of burning them at the stake. People tend to lump any that share a label with such a group into the same category.

As has been mentioned elsewhere. Perhaps the religious left Christians need to make themself more known. People can only base their opinions on what they experience. I have experienced a lot of oppression from the religious right Christians in the public and never any support from the religious left Christians. I know its out there, I just never see it.

We need to find ways to bring the diverse groups of the left together in understanding and harmony with one another. We each may intimidate each other in ways. Talking it through may allieviate that stress.