Question for the ladies of the lounge.....

[BeachBaby]

My girlfriend, Sue (39 years old), has been divorced for 3 years. She was raised by Catholic Republican parents - and while she IS a registered Democrat, she definitely possesses what I would call "old school" opinions - so sometimes she will enlighten me with her ideas on certain topics.

She called me early this morning for our usual Monday morning, "how was your weekend" phone conversation. We got talking about her latest boyfriend, who she found through eHarmony about 5 months ago. She informed me that she thinks that Kevin is "the one". I asked her what it is about Kevin that makes her so sure. Here's my best attempt at her verbatim reply:

"Well, how many guys have I dated since Carl? Five, I think - right? Well, Kevin is the first guy that I don't have to wonder about. I don't have to call him - he always calls me first. He makes no bones about what he envisions for us. With all the other guys, I had to call THEM. I had to hunt them down to talk to them, to make plans for the weekend. This guy takes the initiative - THE WAY IT SHOULD BE".

(I capped that last phrase because it was that part of her reply that caught my attention.)

So, I asked her "Why should it be the guy's responsibility to show interest?" Her answer: "Well, I'm not saying that every woman should operate that way - but after what I've been through, it's something I need for him to do so that *I* know I'm not wasting my time".

Okay, DU ladies - what do you make of that? Is that old-fashioned? Does that sound like game-playing? Or is that how you gauge a man's interest as well?

[Bertha Venation]

1. I'm a lesbian, so keep that in mind

"The way it should be" aside, I think it would be very nice not to have to take the initiative all the time. For someone like me, not too self-assured, it would be a bonus for the other half of the couple to call me, to ask me out, to make plans, sometimes, or a lot of the time even.

It would be a relaxing thing. And yes, it would be, for me, a gauge of interest.

:shrug:

[redqueen]

12. That's my answer too.

:hi:

[BeachBaby]

22. Makes sense to me. Thanks!

:hi:

[skygazer]

2. I don't know - it all depends on what people want

It sounds like she's insecure and needs to know he's really interested in her because maybe she's invested her emotions in others who have turned out to be not so serious.

For me, that wouldn't matter so much - in fact, I'm more gunshy about a guy who does take more control. My second husband was very controlling and, fair or not, I prefer not to leave it all to a guy just so I don't feel swept along and out of control.

We all bring our own shit to all this stuff. :shrug:

[TZ]

3. maybe.

But bear in mind that guys who are stalkers will show initiative as well. I think a good relationship is where BOTH parties are equal and active partners...both take the initiative.
Thats been my problem. Never been in a relatinship where the initiative went both ways...If I didn't really like the guy that much than all the initiative in the world became quite irritating.

[Bake]

27. Speaking from personal experience?

The stalking part, that is?

:hi:

Bake

[TZ]

28. No I've never stalked or been stalked.

No guy has ever really cared that much about me.

[Bake]

31. I thought maybe you had been stalked ...

Not that you'd ever BE a stalker or anything like that. It just sounded like a personal testimony.

I'm trying to provoke a "STFU Bake!" response, obviously.

Bake

[Shell Beau]

4. I don't know. That is how I work kind of. I never was the

pursuer. I guess I liked to be pursued. I do think it is old fashioned, but that doesn't make it wrong. But I have been married 7 years now and with my husband a long time prior to getting married. I don't know how I would be if I were out in the dating field now. I may be the pursuer. :shrug:

[Heidi]

5. She *still* might be wasting her time.

Just because someone's interested doesn't mean that person is a good investment of one's time, and that runs both ways.

What strikes me as really odd is that she makes _herself_ the center of what she perceives as good about Kevin. She couldn't tell you one quality of Kevin's, besides him being willing to call her, that makes her think he's "the one"? Her use of the word "need" is also a red flag.

I hope Kevin's reading this.

[TZ]

7. Yes that what I was thinking

She sounds a little needy and that is almost never a good thing in a relationship.

[BeachBaby]

10. How does that make her "needy"?

I mean, when two people get together, they eventually share their "needs" and "wants" in order to establish whether or not they are a good match, no?

[Heidi]

13. I can't speak for TZ, but after my divorce, I was determined NEVER

to marry again. A very dysfunctional 11-year marriage taught me that needs + needs can = codependency. It sounds like your friend is keeping track, or score, or something, of her initiation of contact vs. his initiation of contact. That may not be the case at all with your friend; I hope it's not. I think of a partner as an enhancement, not an enabler or an accessory to my own insecurities, and vice versa. Yes, I did marry again years later, but I was kind of a hard sell on the whole marriage thing. I still don't believe anyone being "the one."

ETA: Call Me Wesley is a wonderful human being, probably the best human being I've ever known, but the probability is, since I've not met most of the other billions of people on earth, that there are other human beings on this over-populated planet as wonderful or more wonderful than either of us. Know what I mean?

[BeachBaby]

16. I was in an extremely dysfunctional marriage as well.

Thirteen years.

I'm not sure, though, what you mean by your "needs" equation posted above. You don't think that people seek out partners who share their emotional needs?

[Heidi]

19. I do think people very often seek out partners who share their emotional needs,

or (too often) feed on their emotional needs. I wanted to be as self-actualized as possible before I ever married again. I'd rather be with someone based on competent, informed choice, than act on insecurities, emotional/financial/physical needs, and that's how I wanted to be "chosen," too. Not because I validated someone's needs, but as a self-actualized human being who would complement someone's life.

I guess I'm not explaining this too well. :(

[BeachBaby]

20. Hey - you're explaining yourself just fine.

:)

I just wanted to clarify is all. I am not a fan of assuming - especially when the communications are in text.

And fwiw, I agree with you. I've been a doormat to men more often than I would like to admit.

[Heidi]

23. One smiley, two words:

:yourock:

[TZ]

15. Yeah but it sounds like she needs to be validated

by having him persue her...almost suggests to me that she's afraid if she puts herself out there he won't like her. I understand that feeling honestly. I've driven off a few guys by being too forward..which means they were a waste of my time so goodriddance.
She sounds a bit too passive for my tastes..and when you are passive, you can get walked on AND if she is so eager to make this work she will start putting aside herself/her likes for the sake of the relationship-- definitely not healthy.
But then I've never had a successful relationship so of course take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm a bit cynical in this area.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

41. Ever hear of the old concept of

"topping from the bottom"?

Not a bad maneuver.

[BeachBaby]

9. Well, I didn't type out the whole conversation.

:D

No - that's not the only reason she feels he's "the one". Obviously. They do have quite a bit in common.

I was very curious as to her reasoning on how the man should be the initiator in a relationship. That is all. :)

[Left Is Write]

6. It sound like each fulfills a need in the other -

nothing wrong with that.

[surrealAmerican]

8. She's not being "old-fashioned", just insecure.

It's not that surprising that she would be either, considering that she's relatively recently divorced. She said so herself ("...not saying that every woman should...").

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. Good for her

She's been through enough guys who don't call first or make plans that she likes this guy who does those things.

I have no idea how people here are seeing that as "insecure." It sounds terrifically secure to me - she knows what she wants, and if she found it - or is beginning to find it - with this man, I say GOOD FOR HER!

More to the point, why did this bring up in YOU that you felt the need to post it here? I think it tells more about you than about your friend.

Interesting.

[BeachBaby]

14. Well......

because in this day and age, most women I know don't have a problem with letting a guy know she's interested. This includes reciprocal initiating.

I personally found her reasoning to be very old-fashioned. I don't disrespect it, because it obviously works for her - but I wanted to know how other women gauge interest. My opinion of pursuing potential relationships has always been of a "give and take" nature; not all one-sided. :)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. That's what I figured,

and thank you for not taking my honestly curious query as some kind of personal attack, because that is NOT how it was meant.

I thought you were coming at it from the 'give-and-take' angle, and I applaud you for it. It's a very good change that's taken place in this world, that women are just as free to pursue men as men have always been to pursue women.

But - and this is from an old lady who came of age in the sixties, who drank deeply of all the freedoms that time afforded, who went to law when only Affirmative Action allowed women to do so, and who looks at the young women of this world - including my own daughters - and who is thrilled by almost all she sees.

Almost.

I'm not convinced that some of the old-fashioned ways were all that bad. That's why your friend's rationale - that she wanted a man who called her, who made plans - struck me as particularly admirable. Because it IS an old-fashioned concept, but one which also translates to today.

I've watched the mothers of young boys shudder as they told me the stories of young girls who called their houses night and day, aggressive and unrelenting - and scaring the hell out of the boys. And the girls who are all too ready to perform oral sex for young boys when neither of them really know what kind of fire they're playing with. It's a rough world, and a hell of a time to be a youngster, but, more, I wonder what lessons we have taught our kids that these are the values that have - forgive me - trickled down. Something, for some people, has gone terribly awry. These little girls are predatory, well beyond aggressive, and I fear how that's going to translate and affect them as they grow up. They are the "give-and-take" gone insane.

Balance in all things, no?

For instance, would you stay friends with a woman who never called you, who always left the plans to you, who was an utterly passive partner in the relationship? I know I wouldn't. It wouldn't be fair; it would be as unbalanced as anything could be, and, ultimately, it would be unrewarding.

So, for your friend to apply that template to the men she's meeting, well, I think she's being discerning and self-aware, taking very good care of herself.

As liberated a life as I've lived, there are still things that matter to me. The man holding my chair for me in a restaurant, opening the doors everywhere, holding up the covers for me as I come to bed, and, off all things, making sure my seat belt is securely fastened before we drive off. The last one is my particular goofiness, but there are times when it just melts me.

I think she's lucky to have such a thoughtful friend as you, someone who would have her best interests at heart, and I think you're probably lucky to have her, a woman who is bravely getting out there and daring to dance the dance once again.

Here's to both of you:

:toast:

[BeachBaby]

38. I think I told you once before.....

how much I appreciate your pov. I oftentimes find your words inspiring.

Today was no different. Thanks, hon. :hug:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. OMG! It's JERSEYGIRL!!!!!!!

I just now saw your old name, and - wow! - of course it had to be you.

You total doll.

Back atcha, sweetie - :hug:

[Silver Swan]

17. I am older than your friend

but I can understand her attitude, so perhaps it is old fashioned. Or perhaps it is just common sense such as the "he's just not that into you" idea.

I am currently married to my second husband. However, over my life I have dated many, many men.

When I met my first husband, he wanted to spend as much time as possible with me. Likewise, when I met my current spouse, he wanted to be with me as much as possible. He even drove 35 miles through a huge Chicago snow storm to see me.

Guys that I didn't marry did not pursue me that way.

I have concluded that a man who does not seem to want to spend as much time as possible with a woman is either:

1. married
2. living with someone
3. or not really into her

[BeachBaby]

18. Thanks for your post.

And now you've tempted me into starting a "How do you know he's into you" thread! :rofl: :hi:

[TZ]

21. Well if you do

I'll be very interested. I've never been able to figure that one out myself...:(

[BeachBaby]

25. I just posted it.

:)

[Missy Vixen]

24. I'd be interested in reading that

I don't blame your friend for wanting the guy to at least take the initiative. She knows where she stands with him.

[BeachBaby]

26. I posted it.

And I don't blame her, either. She's been through a lot with men. :(

[Radical Activist]

32. I don't think it's a matter of age.

I know plenty of women in their 20's, including feminists and left wing activists, who would never ask a guy on a date unless they had already been going out for a while.

[graywarrior]

29. I hate relationship rules

And I hate keeping score of who breaks them.

[AlCzervik]

30. it sounds like she doesn't like to make decisions, it's easier for Kevin to take charge

and do all the planning and thinkin. Of course i could be way off base, wouldn't bee the first time but that "He makes no bones about what he envisions for us" first off---yuck and that's why i think she is happy to let someone else steer the ship.

if that's what she digs than spiffy for her, personally that would never, ever work for me.

[dawgmom]

33. It's pretty simple -- and hasn't changed that much in a million years

It's really very simple. Men who are interested call, and pursue. Men who are not that interested don't call, and don't pursue. If they're not particularly interested, they may be responsive when you initiate contact, and they may be perfectly happy to go out and do something with you. And they'll certainly be more than happy to sleep with you. But if they're not doing the active pursuing? Nine out of ten times, you're not "the one." They're just biding time until she comes along.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I get really tired of watching wonderful women who are so smart in every aspect of their lives except this one -- who pine away after men who toss them a friendly bone once in a while, reading all kinds of meaning in to it that just isn't there, wailing about "why doesn't he call?" It's a cliche, I know -- but it's a true cliche. "He's just not that into you."
That's when you move on, as time's a-wastin.

[BeachBaby]

34. Harsh? Not at all.

Like I said....everybody sees things differently. I know many couples where the beginning stages of communication were reciprocated. It wasn't all one-sided. I know others where the contact was initiated strictly by the guy. That's why I wanted to see what a large group of people had to say (DU). I find this kind of thing interesting.

And oh - btw - you may want to check out my other thread. Seems some men don't agree with you. :)

[Chan790]

49. It's not necessarily that simple at all...

if she isn't doing 1/2 the calling and half the pursuing and half the aggressor...I'm losing interest.

I really do think it's generational.

[dawgmom]

50. I did say 9 out of 10 ten times

I don't think it's generational, not from what I've observed of the younger women that I know. I don't think that things have changed as much as people would have liked them to change, unfortunately. Like I said -- 9 out of 10.

But the original example given was of a woman whose past relationships were experiences where she was doing ALL the calling and outreach, and that's clearly lopsided. If a man isn't doing any of the initiating, my experience has been that he's just biding time until the one he really wants comes along -- and she's the one he'll actively pursue.

[Chan790]

54. I'd say you're right to an extent...

I like being romantic and I know a lot of women like to be pursued...it's just more fun when they make it easy for me to chase them.

This may be too zen but I tell my female friends that the secret is to be overtly passive. If you really want a guy to be the one to pursue you or there is something you'd really like to do, drop unsubtle hints like "I really want to see that movie, It's been so long since I went to the movies." or "That restaurant sounds so delicious, I wish some guy would take me there."

I'd say that a guy who isn't interested won't follow through on unsubtle hints...except that my roommate C has been dropping unsubtle "I want to go to (this very-specific $100 prix-fixe Japanese/sushi restaurant in Financial District Manhattan) for V-day" for over a month to roommate J and he's just not getting it. They've only been dating for three years, he should be able to figure these things out by now.

Edit: clearer subject line.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. I prefer a equal initiative in all aspects of the relationship.

But I'm the one who takes all the initiative in this one, so it's not as if it's the most important element.

[Drunken Girlfriend]

36. Re:Girlfriend

I don't know so much if your friend is an old fashioned person,but she does seem to possess a very passive-agressive type of personality.

5 months is jumping the gun a bit,in terms of future goals,but if
this guy makes her happy,then that is awesome.

I guess every woman is different,in terms of what they are
looking for.

[supernova]

39. I'm in the middle of this now

I'm dating... and it's probably the trickiest thing to negotiate for me.

History: I was married to someone with whom I took all the initiative. I planned dates. I paid for dates. And some were very pricey. What did I get? Some one who was male physically, but very comfortable being treated as the passive Object of Desire. He was also abusive and spiteful when I wasn't playing the lead, through sheer tiredness or through travails of my own.

He was a narcissist, IOW, among other things.

It was only after that marriage that I learned that "real men," mature men with a decent level of testosterone, do actually want to do things for women and generally be helpful to us. I had NO CONCEPTION of this prior to that. I was not a "daddy's girl." We loved each other but he was emotionally distant. That is both good and bad.

Fast forward to today.

Since I am a fairly good tomboy, it will take someone who is definitely masculine, to make me feel feminine. One of the ways I gage that is by whether or not he wants to pursue me. I don't want to run after him. All. The. Time. Now, once we start dating, and we like each other and spend more time together, yes, I will initiate meetings/outings. I don't mind a bit. Like you say, reciprocity is the goal. But if a man isn't pursuing me, at least to start, it's likely he's not strong enough for me.

[DeepBlueC]

42. I think it means he just IS into her

[PassingFair]

43. As a singleton, it didn't matter WHO did the persuing...what I destested was a reluctant lover.

When I met my husband, he was gung-ho and
that counted for a LOT with me after 7 years
of on-again, off-again with my old boyfriend...

So, I understand your friend's attitude here.

[mcctatas]

44. Maybe its a self esteem issue on my part, but generally I won't

make any move unless I have some idea that the man is interested in me. However, once I know they are interested I have no problem calling them, making plans etc. As for gauging interest, I guess it's hard to describe, you just kind of know

[PaddyBlueEyes]

45. uhhhhh

first move maker...

[mcctatas]

46. uhhhhhhh...

"Naked, Drunk and in a Kilt" tends to make me forget I have self-esteem issues smartass ;)

[PaddyBlueEyes]

47. It worked didnt it??

:evilgrin:

[Left Is Write]

55. Hmmm...how could he be naked AND in a kilt?

[NashVegas]

48. She's Smart

Although I think 5 months is a bit of a length, initially at least it's smart to let the guy do all the pursuing, assuming you are looking for a serious relationship.

There's nothing in the world wrong about wanting to be paired up with someone who will meet your emotional needs. To pretend one doesn't have any is the crazy thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Here's my take on it

She may have had trouble sussing out that "he's just not that into you" and may have driven the men further away by pursuing them. If a man is wavering, "I can't get enough of you" approach will send him off in the other direction.

With this fellow, she knows he's interested.

In my experience and observations over the years, men may talk about being too shy to make the first move, but if they're really in love, they do. If they just have the hots for someone, shyness keeps them from making a move, but if they're really in love, then wild horses won't keep them away from the phone.

[dawgmom]

53. Exactly!

Well said. That's what I was trying to say, and I didn't cut to the bottom line as clearly as you did. A man who is truly interested will do the pursuing. Nothing can keep him from doing so except for insecurity. And if that's the case, who wants him anyway? A man who doesn't know what he wants, and doesn't go after it? Ugh.

[XemaSab]

52. Her logic makes sense to me

I HATE it when guys don't call you.

And she's right; it indicates a lack of interest on their part.

I don't agree with the "way it should be" remark so much. I think it should be that both people call each other. But it's hard to argue with someone's values, so if that's what makes her happy, God bless her.

[BlueIris]

56. I tend to judge another's interest by the quality of our interactions, not how many there are.

And I think it's the job of both parties in any relationship to "take the initiative."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. The key phrase is "both parties"

A man who never calls you, never asks you out (after you've asked him out), never does anything without prodding, does not have you very high on his list of priorities.

I suspect that BeachBaby's friend doesn't function well under the "women can make the first move" scenario because she can't read the "he's just not that into you" signals.