Do you give a grain-based or meat-based diet to your dogs and cats?

[NNN0LHI]

The reason I ask is I have always given grain-based food to my dogs because thats what easily available. I have a ten-year old dog who has suffered from crystals in his urine and stones (had them removed earlier this year) in his liver. The stones were jagged and were cutting into him and making him bleed and get sick all the time. Trying to pee crystals probably is no joy either.

My vet said the PH of his urine is what was causing the crystals and the stones. So he put the old boy on Science Diet prescription dog food that is supposed to help with the crystals. He would eat the stuff for a while and then stop eating and then we would have to try another Science Diet prescription food with a different letter until he wouldn't eat that any more. Like he knew the food was making him sick. Might have been upsetting his stomach too? I mean even us if we get hungry enough we will eat our own leather shoes even though we know we may not feel too good afterwards. We would still eat them if we got hungry enough.

After reading some stuff I have concluded that either the grain or the gluten in most dog foods, including the Prescription Science Diet was what was making him sick. He would avoid complete meals. Run in the other room like he didn't want anything to do with the stuff. Its like he would finally get hungry enough (probably starving). to eat these types of foods which he knew were making him sick but he would still eat it because its all he had. Until he finally couldn't eat it any more and would stop eating. He was losing weight through all this too.

So after the surgery a friend suggested switching him to a grain-free, gluten-free diet. My old boy loves eating again. I can tell he is feeling better already. And this is after only a few days.

Anyone else went through this?

Don


http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html

Contrasting Grain-based and Meat-based Diets Fed To Dogs and Cats

It is common knowledge and generally agreed upon by experts that dogs and cats are meat eaters and have evolved through the ages primarily as meat eaters. Although now "domesticated", our pet dogs and cats have not evolved rumens along their digestive tracts in order to ferment cellulose and other plant material, nor have their pancreases evolved a way to secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs and cats become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things. That’s how Nature is set up at this time.

On the other hand, some plant material such as rice, soybean meal and corn have some, although limited, usefulness in the meat eater's diet. Corn, wheat, soy, rice and barley are not bad or harmful to dogs and cats. These plant sources are simply not good choices (we do get to choose what we feed our pets, don't we?) for the foundation of a diet to optimally nourish animals what are, have been, and for the foreseeable future will be meat eaters.

What is the difference between grain based and meat based foods for pet dogs and cats? If you don't believe that dogs and cats are primarily meat eaters, you might as well click away now because you certainly won't believe what follows. Most of what is presented next has been derived from two excellent references on small animal nutrition:

[Lost in CT]

1. Fish based... They like the Fancy Feast fish flavors. nt

[NNN0LHI]

3. Mostly Soybean Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Flour and Ground Yellow Corn

The higher on the list an ingredient the more of it is in the food. Poultry By-product Meal can be feathers, snouts, feet, anything. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I used to think if it said fish flavors it was based on fish too.

Don


http://www.pgferals.org/info/display?PageID=29

Fancy Feast, Salmon, Tuna and Chicken Flavored Cat Food

Water Sufficient for Processing
Poultry By-product Meal
Soybean Meal
Corn Gluten Meal
Wheat Flour
Ground Yellow Corn
Salmon
Tuna
Chicken
Animal Fat Preserved with BHA
Phosphoric Acid
Brewers Dried Yeast
Fumaric Acid
Tricalcium Phosphate
Vegetable Oil
Salt
Sorbic Acid (A Preservative)

[DarkTirade]

2. Isn't it bad for their kidneys and liver? I mean, grain alcohol isn't great for humans either but...

... wait, that's not what you were asking, was it. :P

[Shell Beau]

4. I had to change up one of my dog's diet as well. He has

very bad skin allergies. He eats veal, fish or sometimes vegetable based food. I buy Nature's Recipe dog food. It has helped some.

[NNN0LHI]

7. The person who told me about this had the same problem with one of his dogs

The dog kept licking the top of her front feet until they were bleeding. He changed the food about two years ago and she healed up.

Don

[Shell Beau]

9. The bottom of Hank's feet used to get so infected. They would

have pus oozing out. We were able to get his feet under control. Now it is his ears. They get so nasty. He scratches them until they bleed. He goes in every 6 weeks for an allergy shot.

[Richardo]

5. They call those meat-shredding teeth 'canines' for a reason.

That's all I can say.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

6. Meat based

The dogs and one cat actually eat grain-free.

[grace0418]

8. As I learned the hard way after my second cat was diagnosed with diabetes, cats are not

omnivores, they are carnivores. Dry food has way too many carbs for their bodies to handle. Even most wet foods are filled with grains and starches and filler. One of my boys didn't make it past 10 (he was fragile from birth) but his brother eventually overcame diabetes completely with a new type of insulin treatment and a change in diet. He's almost 16 now and going strong. He hasn't needed insulin in several years. I find wet food with as few starches and fillers as possible. I was feeding him Newman's Own but the price on that nearly doubled in the past year and I couldn't afford it anymore. But Whole Foods has a house brand that he likes and it seems to be keeping his blood sugar levels even. I alternate it with a frozen food that is pretty much pure meat called Country Pet. It's reasonably priced but it's hard to get. Whole Foods only has it occasionally and if you order it online you have to order 12 or 24, which I don't have room for in my freezer.

[RebelOne]

10. My dogs' diets are almost entirely meat based.

My Rottweiler and Chihuahua refuse to eat dry or canned dog food. So, I buy fresh hamburger, smoked ham and pork hocks for them. And they love the chicken jerky treats.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. No grains. Dogs don't need grain and neither do cats.

I feed my dogs half Evo (meat, organ, ground bones, vegetables and fruits) and half raw meat.

Dogs can't digest corn so it just goes right thru.

Most of those grain based foods are just sprayed with animal fat so that it tastes good but it really is mostly horrible food.

Meat by products can include euthanized pets that get rendered, and unused meat from the grocery stores that is still in the package. That stuff is just awful. Stay away from any kind of by products.

[sammythecat]

12. This issue always confuses me.

Apparently your Vet doesn't have the right answer either. I guess that, just like doctors, or anybody else for that matter, some put more consideration into their decisions than others. Some are just better and smarter than others. Some care more than others.

I have 4 cats (6 to 14yrs) and 1 dog(19yrs). They all have dry food (kibbles n bits, meow mix) available all the time. The cats use up (some always gets thrown out) 5-6 cans of Nine Lives a day and the dog gets an average of 4 cans of Pedigree a week. She also gets aspirin for her arthritis twice which I hide in slices of cheese, so she eats 4 slices of white american per day.

In addition, Rosie (dog) gets 1-1/2 cooked chicken breast a day and the cats get a good sized shredded half breast per day. Rosie has always had a healthy weight but she is unusual in that I have never, not even once, seen her dig into her food. She's totally aloof and disinterested in anything I give her whether it be canned dog food, steak, fish, or chicken. Doesn't matter, it'll be hours till she eats it and sometimes it's the next day. I'll fix her a $12 restaurant entree and it sits there. She does gobble up the aspirin laden cheese, but I figure 4 slices a day is enough.

I do the best I can but, between all their likes and dislikes and all the conflicting information, I never feel confident I'm giving them the right diet. Cost and convenience are factors. Some days I'm gone for 16hrs and money is tight, although, pound for pound, I spend more on them than I do for myself.

[dana_b]

14. you are right

vets don't know jack about diet. they should but they get paid to promote "Science Diet" which contains mostly filler like corn meal.

My kid worked at an overpriced "healthy" pet food store (It's called Pet Food Express) and they taught them a lot about pet's diets.

Anyway, whatever you can get yours to eat is good, right?

[sammythecat]

21. It's taken me a while to learn to by cynical,

but I'm learning. Too often, what is sold as best quality is merely "good enough" to sell and make a profit. The big pet food manufacturers aren't so interested in animal health as they are in making money. I can't be sure of this, but I feel some of the really cheap pet food is so cheap and lousy that it saddens me some pets are fed this exclusively. I would only consider it as a temporary emergency option.

As for the vets, I like to think most are trustworthy and conscientious, but just like any profession from plumbers to surgeons, there are some that are not. I've been satisfied with the care my pets have received from the vet group that treats them. However, they DO sell Science Diet, but I don't buy it. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell it because it's "good enough" and they make a nice profit from it. People buy it from the vet and think it must be the best there is. I don't think that's necessarily so.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Cost and convenience are factors that are important to me too

I bet I have spent several thousand dollars on surgery, medications and vet office visits over the years with my male. If that can be alleviated I am ahead right there. Though the food I am feeding him now is definitely the lowest cost food I have ever given to him. It comes dehydrated so there is a little of work involved mixing it with water. It takes about 10 minutes to make enough for a week. No cans either. I hate cans so that is a plus for me.

It comes in a ten pound box in powder for $66.00 to $72.00 depending where you buy it that will make 43 lbs of fresh food that would equal 57 twelve ounce cans which comes out to a little over a buck for a twelve ounce can if you were buying it that way. That is really cheap. And again, no cans.

Look at the ingredients:

Ingredients:

Hormone-free chicken, organic flaxseed, potatoes, celery, sweet potatoes, apples, alfalfa, organic kelp, honey, zucchini, green beans, cabbage, bananas, papayas, yogurt, basil, garlic and rosemary.

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/force.shtml

Before you say dang that almost sounds good enough to eat every batch is actually tasted by a human where it is made. Human food as well as dog food is made at this facility. Only one of its kind.

My friend had some sitting in plastic container is his kitchen and he had a lady friend over who was eating it with crackers and loving it before he walked in and told her who it was for. It smells good to me too but I am not prepared to eat it.

Good luck with the dog and cats. You may very well have no problems at all. My female Keeshond has never exhibited any similar problems from the same food my male was eating. But she is a couple of years younger. And the older one appeared fine when he was younger. So you never know?

Don

[sammythecat]

24. I really appreciate your response.

I checked out the site. I'm going to send for some samples (I like that they provide sample sizes. I found a dealer. She's about 30 miles away, but I travel there often. Apparently no stores within a 50mi. radius of me sell it, but I live in the middle of nowhere.

I'm hoping for the best, that they eat it. I'd never short change their health for the sake of convenience, but this would be a lot less trouble than what I do now and that's a bonus. Plus, I hate all the cans too. Pain in the ass. I think the price is very reasonable. It might even turn out to be cheaper than what I do now.

Glad you clued me in on this. I'm excited about trying it.

[dana_b]

13. meat

my dog has a sensitive stomach and gets sick with certain types of foods. We've found that anything with meal, too many grains or too rich of food makes her sick. So we use Natural Balance (Dick Van Patten's brand), Homestyle or Candidae. Also no lamb or duck. It's too greasy and makes her sooo gassy! Yuck!

[Mike 03]

16. This topic drives me crazy, because nothing I do is right.

I have my third dog now. My previous two dogs died of cancer. So I decided I was going to feed my new dog the best food I could find, which I found. I don't know that it's okay to name brands here so I won't. In any case, it is making my dog fat, so my vet told me to stop feeding him the best food and give him cheaper diet food that is predominantly corn, and I doubt this is helping at all.

And we exercise every single day for more than an hour, vigorously, and he is still gaining weight.

I'm clueless.

All I know is that my dogs have always eaten one third of what they were supposed to eat, and all of them got fat eating this dog food.

Paul Newman's organization has some organic dog food that I am trying now.

[NNN0LHI]

20. I can't figure out why the vet didn't tell you to reduce the amount of the good food?

Until you have his weight where you and the vet think it should be? When mine were all eating good I was able to keep there weight right where the vet recommended by weighing then occasionally and adjusting their food intake of food as needed.

Can't really go by the recommended amounts because every dog has a different activity level among other things. My female gains weight just looking at the food container but her activity level is low because she don't go out much because she doesn't like getting her feet cold or even wet and she refuses to walk with me and my other two who will walk my legs off if I let them.

If I had a dog gaining weight on a good food he liked I would just keep cutting back a little at a time until he weighed what it supposed to weigh and then I would feed him that amount consistently. I think keeping a dog a little bit on the hungry side keeps them alert and is probably good for them.

Don

[Kali]

22. no offense, but an hour a day is not much excersize for a dog

why not just feed LESS of the good food. I don't understand feeding more or the same of some cheap shit. Strange advice from a vet.

[carlyhippy]

17. My cat has to now eat science diet prescription c/d now because of crystals in urine

I started feeding him this 3 days ago, had to take him to the vet because of blood in urine. The vet said to not feed him anything else but this stuff, I don't know if it's meat or grain based.

[CreekDog]

18. The ingredients in the Science Diet prescription foods are really disappointing

my cat's been on that for a long time (until recently when i took him off of it).

it's chicken by products and lots of corn and rice (not fully formed rice either but brewers rice --rice without nutritional value).

so now he's on Wellness Dry (mostly) with some canned Wellness and/or Nutro. These have grains but at a lot smaller proportion and are higher in protein and real meat (no byproducts) than Science Diet. the best thing is that my cat is able to eat more and not be as hungry as he was on the diet Science Diet prescription where he was always hungry and yet still eating 400 calories per day of that stuff. he was so hungry that i couldn't feed him any less (about a cup per day).

with the current plan, he's eating about 300 calories per day and doesn't get annoyingly hungry until near mealtime. and it's all better quality food.

i tried him on the Core Wellness, which has "no grains" but i think it was hard on his stomach.

[NMDemDist2]

19. I just switched them to a meat based diet, for similar reasons

my dogs were getting chronic ear infections and my old girl (16+) is deaf. FINALLY a vet said "She's probably allergic to grains, corn most likely"

well DOH!!! why didn't you mention that 10 years ago for heaven's sake??

so I started them on this stuff I get at the local feed store and they all like it and are pooping less and the old girl is like a puppy again :bounce:

http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/

[Kali]

23. pretty much agree except dogs ARE more omnivorous.

and even cats get some veg/grain from gut contents in nature.