"Most Evil" is on right now. Studies of serial killers facinate me.

[Lil Missy]

Anyone else like to watch that?

I'm not sure who this one is about. Possibly Berkowitz?

[Jamastiene]

1. I have never seen it, but

serial killers fascinate me too.

[Lil Missy]

2. All have some kind of abuse or a background of severe hardship.

I can sort of understand that. But so do many of us, and I cannot imagine resorting to such cruelty.

It does baffle me at times, thus why it facinates me so. FWIW, it's a good bet that the best way to create a monster is to treat a child like shit. With abuse and neglect.

[Jamastiene]

3. Absolutely.

Monsters are not born. They are created. They go through our fucked up society and our fucked up system collecting traits along the way. This is what we've created, really. Our society is THAT fucked up at this point.

[vadawg]

7. I too have a lot of interaction with murderers on a daily basis

and i agree with the other poster, these guys are not like you and me, well at least not me. Theres something missing, something your intuition tells you that you need to get away from, if only you would listen. Unfortunately people dont always listen or recognise when there is something off about a person.

[Lil Missy]

9. Now that is fuckin' scary.

[old mark]

12. Sociopaths watch and study real humans to copy their

emotional reactions because they have such different reactions. When they want to, they can be the most charming people you could meet, and they tend to suck people into letting them get closer than you would witn most people - they can appear to be very friendly and have genuine interest in others, but this is part of their manipulative act.

One of my killers went through a med change long ago, and in a short period when he was not medicarted, he stood with his back in a corner, and just watched people go by....it was one of three occasions in nearly 10 years that I was scared to be where I was....


mark

[Lil Missy]

13. Was this also someone who suffered in childhood? The reason I ask,

is that I was also fascinated with the story of Sybil. She suffered horribly. But she did not resort to violence, she developed Multiple Personality Disorder.

Maybe women react differently than men too.

[old mark]

17. I will PM you. nt

[woo me with science]

44. Don't be taken in by "Sybil."

She learned to act in different personalities, but it was a condition caused by the suggestion of her doctor. Multiple personalities, or "dissociative identity disorder," is based wholly on recovered "memories" of abuse. Although most people are now informed enough to be skeptical of recovered memories if they are called by that name, most do not realize that the quacks have shifted their terminology and now usually seek legitimacy for recovered memory therapy under the label of "dissociation" rather than repression or memory recovery.

If you are interested in how people can come to "discover" that they were savagely abused for their entire childhoods (often in satanic cults or government mind control projects) and never remembered any of it until adulthood, you might want to pick up a copy of "Manufacturing Victims," by Richard Ofshe and Ethan Watters. This Pulitzer Prize-winning book is still the best clear description and expose of the recovered memory debacle.

Sociopaths are real, and current research suggests a significant genetic component in addition to whatever environmental factors may be at play.

[Lil Missy]

48. To be sure, you are suggesting Sybil did not have MPD?

And/or, you think MPD does not exist?

My only point was that many have suffered from severe abuse, and did not resort to cruel and heinous abuse of others.

[woo me with science]

49. It is an iatrogenic condition

created by suggestion, either in bad therapy or by exposure to "survivor" literature and social groups.

I agree with you that most who are actually abused don't go on to abuse others, and it is an important point to make. I am glad you point it out.

I just wanted to caution about using Sybil as an example of this, since her reported "abuse" memories and "personalities" were almost certainly created in therapy. The problem of false recovered memories is so significant that researchers in child abuse now routinely screen out study participants who have not always remembered their abuse, becasue they are aware of the recovered memory problem and do not want their data contaminated. Pop culture continues to push the myth of "Sybil" because it is a good story, but in reality people need to be aware of the dangers of any therapist or social group that assumes long-buried memories of abuse as the cause of emotional distress.

[rolltideroll]

56. Dissacociative Fugue

I agree broadly with what you say, however I adopt a compartmentalization of personality view. Inabilities to deal with life experiences lead to the assuming of a seemingly better persona in order to handle stressors. Just curious, what are ytyour views on the use of psychotropic jobs and the morality around people using them to make people "act more normal". I am having this debate in an undergrad class about ADD and Benzos. ANy thoughts to help me win this one would be appreciated.

Whoops forgot my point about Fugue. That is the assuming the identity of another. Just as Cyclothymia is distinguished from Bi polar disorder due to it's lack of rapid cycling, I have always though M.P.D. is a from of Fugue with extremly rapid cycling.
Another intereating point is that like Ghost Sickness or Koto, MPD occurs only in North America and Canada.

[Lil Missy]

61. Gawd, you guys are giving me brain freezes and mind fuck. I'm obviously a novice with this topic.

Please do continue. I only watch TV and read a bit. It is interesting to see the inside.

[woo me with science]

97. If you are interested in the topic,

I highly recommend the book, "Making Monsters," by Richard Ofshe and Ethan Watters. It is still the very best explanation and expose of the recovered memory problem, including DID/MPD.

It won the Pulitzer Prize.

[Lil Missy]

139. See, we are still having separate conversations.

The only reason I brought up Sybil is to point out that not all people who have been abused turn in to serial killers.

That is all.

Now, it might be very well be an interesting topic to start a new thread about MPD and DID. That could be a very interesting topic.

[barb162]

137. I am feeling the same way just reading parts of this thread

I feel I have to read about three books so far just to get it straight :)

[amitten]

86. Did not Sybil, though, have significant physical scars from her

abuse?

Children and adults alike all over the world are abused/tortured in horrible ways every single day.

Just because one is diagnosed incorrectly with a disorder does not mean that the abuse never happened. Child abuse is a fact of life, is often sadistic, and is more prevalent than most would wish to believe.

[Lil Missy]

89. My understanding is that Sybil was so tortured sexually that she'd never be able to bear childbirth.

It was horrifying and so cruel what her mother did to her.

But, Sybil did not resort to being a serial killer. That says a LOT for the human spirit, and how much one can withstand.

[woo me with science]

92. Actually, there was never any physical evidence of torture.

There was embellishment in a novel, but there has never been any actual substantiation of physical evidence of abuse in this case. There are many people who have been waiting patiently for such substantiation for decades now, but it has never materialized.

That lack of evidence is typical of multiple personality cases. I have written other, lengthier posts about the problem of evidence in cases like this, both in case studies such as "Sybil" and in what passes for "research" on DID. When researchers have gone back to examine what has been accepted as "proof" of abuse in these reported cases, the proof invariably falls apart.

In the twenty to thirty years during which this diagnosis has become commonplace in the US and Canada (and please note that the diagnosis exploded ONLY in countries where there was a lot of media attention to "multiple personalities" and, in particular, right after the release of "Sybil"), and despite the thousands upon thousands of women who claim to have repressed or dissociated savage torture throughout their childhoods, we still have not a SINGLE verified case of such a childhood.

Not a single one.

[Lil Missy]

93. I get it. You totally dismiss, out of hand, that such cruel physicial and emotional abuse,

does not exist unless you have video or photgraphic evidence of each and every episode of abuse.

Excuse me, but physical and sexual abuse does not take place with witnesses, or photographic evidence. And your premise that there must be some "proof" offends me.

You can't just take the word of someone who has been so victimized? I guess not. Gotta have photos.

Christ.

[woo me with science]

94. No, you misstate what I said.

It is a common tactic of Believers to imply that because someone is skeptical of recovered memories, they then somehow doubt the existence of savage abuse of children.

I am an advocate in court for children who have actually been abused. They are beaten and raped and broken, and they will never forget what happened to them. Nothing makes me more frustrated than to know that the therapy resources these children desperately need are being usurped by 40-year-old women being taught that the stars they doodle in their notebooks are "evidence" of long-forgotten abuse in a satanic cult.

We know a lot more than we did 30 years ago about how people get sucked into believing they were victims of savage, ritualized torture, or even mind control or satanic ritual abuse as children and never knew about it at all until they went into therapy or met other "survivors" recovering memories. For anyone who is interested in learning more about the recovered memory problem and multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity disorder, I highly recommend the following books:

"Making Monsters" by Richard Ofshe and Ethan Watters (Winner of the Pulitzer Prize)
"Creating Hysteria: Women and Multiple Personality Disorder" by Joan Acocella

[Lil Missy]

95. There was no suggestion of religion or "satanic ritual abuse" in our previous notes.

I think that shit is nonsense and will not address that any further.

I am not sure what your definition of a "Believer" is, or what constitutes proof in your mind as to what constitutes abuse.

Do you ever listen to what a child says, and just believe them? Or do you require some sort of physical or photographic evidence?

[woo me with science]

96. There doesn't have to be,

but satanic ritual abuse and mind control are a frequent component of MPD/DID narratives nowadays. We even have DU-ers here who have posted on the boards about such experiences. Go to any website for survivors online, and you will see that the experience is so common among people claiming MPD/DID that most forums have specific ratings for such experiences and specific boards for ritually abused survivors to talk about their experiences. Therapists who "discover" MPD/DID in their patients are by definition believers in massive repression of abuse and are often credulous of satanic ritual abuse.

We are not talking about believing a child who reports an incident of abuse. We are talking about a diagnosis that involves discovering an entire CHILDHOOD filled with savage, pervasive, and often ritualistic abuse. And this abuse was never suspected before the adult came into contact with other survivors or a therapist who believes in MPD/DID.

Of course not every child who tells the truth about abuse will have photographic evidence of it. That is just silly. But certainly many do. It is very telling, then, that after thousands upon thousands of MPD/DID clients claiming to have "remembered" these torture chamber childhoods over the past three decades (again, no explosion of cases until after the release of "Sybil"), we still have not a single case of such a childhood that has been substantiated.

Not a single case.

I used to visit survivor groups on a fairly regular basis, and I could tell you some amazing stories about what passes for evidence of abuse in these groups. Women sit around and talk about their dreams and the results of free writing in journals. Every physical symptom gets interpreted as a possible "body memory" of abuse. Logic gets suspended. And you can often tell how long someone has been involved in memory recovery by the strength of their confidence in their memories. Newcomers are often extremely nervous and skeptical of their own imaginings, and they frequently say things like, "I feel like I'm making it all up." The older members of the group then leap in to reassure them that their doubts are evidence of how scary and confusing the torturers were, and they are encouraged to just sit with the memories and "see if they fit."

MPD/DID is the only psychiatric diagnosis in which the therapists teach clients that denial and believing you made it all up is a NORMAL part of the process.

I once sat in a group of MPD/DID survivors in which a woman was extremely distressed because she had just slept with her boyfriend for the first time and had bled like a virgin. She was distraught, because she feared that the virginal blood could mean that all her memories of being raped as a child were false. The other group members rushed in to reassure her that the bleeding probably meant that she had unusual scarring and injuries in her vagina. You have to be in these groups to understand how twisted the thinking gets.

[Lil Missy]

100. I am pretty certain we are on ENTIRELY different wave lengths.

Again, I said nothing about religious beliefs or ritualistic satanic abuse. I frankly think that crap is nonsense, but nor have I ever met anyone that professes to such shit.

I do know of one idgit, that I had had known from a self help course I had taken several years prior. I thought she was a couple bubbles off plumb at the time, and a total drama queen.

I ran into her several years later, and she told me, in her most devastating and depressing way, that her trauma was most likely from coming through the birth canal.

Took all my self restraint to not just smack her. She had a very privileged life, and wanted for nothing. I sometimes stole food because I was fucking hungry. She's worried about how she arrived from the womb? I just wanted to slap her, and suggest she get a REAL problem. Jeezus.

I am not going to get into the MPD or repressed memory stuff. I do not profess to have such issues. It just only irritated me when you made some suggestion that if the abuse is not documented, it is suspect and probably didn't happen. Now that would be infuriating, especially for the kids you say you are advocating for.

Please tell me you do believe your kids when they say something bad happened. The bruises and fractures are obvious evidence. But, do you have to photograph their vagina's and assholes too? Otherwise, it did not happen as far as you are concerned? You can't take their word for it?

[woo me with science]

124. "I am not going to get into the MPD or repressed memory stuff."

Thank you for your thoughtful response and for checking with me about what I meant. Please re-read the thread, and you will see that MPD and "repressed memory stuff" are exactly what I have been talking about here. Believe me, I advocate for abused kids, so I have seen horrific abuse and know it exists, often without photographic evidence. It infuriates me that the field of trauma has been infested by recovered memory charlatans who create faux victims, while the children who have actually been abused have to scratch and fight for services.

I began posting in this thread because someone posted about MPD and Sybil. My comments have been specifically about MPD and the infestation of the trauma field by recovered memory garbage. There are no documented cases of torture chamber childhoods leading to MPD/DID, because MPD/DID is a set of behaviors caused by suggestion and influence, not by horrific abuse. It arises from and is wholly based in the recovered memory sham.

People need to know that Sybil/recovered memory is a crock, because the risk is still out there. There are charlatan therapists in every major city in America who will take a vulnerable client who is feeling vague distress in her life and lead her to reenvision her past with "dissociated" abuse to explain it. Research on clients eventually diagnosed as MPD/DID shows that they become broken and dysfunctional (e.g., losing family and relationships, developing severe phobias and "triggers," cutting and burning themselves, falling apart at work or going on disability, etc. ) AFTER they go into therapy for MPD/DID and not before. Recovered memory therapy is touted by Believers as a "healing journey," but in reality it is a pernicious malpractice of which all mental health consumers should be aware.

[Lil Missy]

130. I'm sorry if you were offended, and I have read this entire thread.

I'm the one who started it. The topic was about serial killers, and a suggestion that most of them have endured some kind of abuse in their past. (Of course there are exceptions, of just plain evil spoiled brats.)

I suggested Sybil as an example of someone who suffered horrible abuse, but did not turn into a serial killer. My only point was that many suffer terrible abuse, but don't turn to cruelty to others as adults.

Let's just agree on that much.

[barb162]

140. But Dr. WIlbur was not some quack. Is that right or wrong?

What am I missing here?
snip
"Dr. Wilbur trained in psychiatry at Michigan and worked with neuropsychiatrist A.E. Bennett at the University of Nebraska, where she met Sybil, the first patient with multiple personality to be in analysis. In 1949, she moved to New York to complete analytic training to assist her in understanding "hysterics." Sybil followed, enrolled at Columbia University, and entered into analysis with Dr. Wilbur, during which she told about blackouts and time loss and, during one session, dissociated to the personality Peggy. Dr. Wilbur considered her most important American Academy of Psychoanalysis presentation to be "Transference in Multiple Personalities" (1959). It was published in Dissociation in March 1988. Dr. Wilbur asked Science Digest editor and City College English professor Flora Schreiber to write the story of Sybil.

In 1967, Dr. Wilbur was invited to join the University of Kentucky faculty, served as acting chair, and retired at the age of 65 as professor emerita. She lectured in academic centers, to the public, and to local and national legislators about generations of child, spouse, and elder abuse, all its forms, repercussions, and needed laws. Her other interests included increasing admissions of women to medical school, the women's and men's movements, identification of multiple personality in prisoners, parenting education for abuse prevention, and self-fulfillment. She believed that "life is for the living" and "you can change your life." She founded a shelter for multiple personality patients in Lexington, Ky., and fostered the team approach, including the clergy, to patient treatment." snip

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/155/9/1274

[amitten]

115. Well, just because you do not have proof of such torture does

not mean it has never happened. Of course there are children, and adults, that are victimized and tortured. Children get burned, cut beaten and raped by their often mentally ill parents.

Again, just because no multiple personality disorder studies have confirmed such torture doesn't mean that such torture never occurs.

[Lil Missy]

117. Thanks. Something about this really bothers me.

I understand his point about cults, false memories and such. I'm not even going there.

I'm just saying, if someone says clearly, this or that happened, I'd hate to see them challenged to provide proof.

I guess we must all carry concealed cameras in our tits, twats, and assholes from now on. Else, it didn't happen. If my friend tells me something happened, I believe it. I don't request video proof.

Shit.

[woo me with science]

126. When you are dealing with massive recovered memories of abuse,

believing blindly is not a benign position to take, Lil Missy.

Everybody wants to be compassionate, so it has become PC and almost mandatory to believe any "survivor" without question, no matter what the circumstances of memory recovery or how bizarre and divorced from reality the memory narrative becomes. There is a sick tenet in the recovered memory movement that memories must not be questioned, "because they are her truth." But supporting someone in a destructive, almost cult-like pursuit of memories is NOT the compassionate road to take.

When false memories are not challenged, innocents are accused of horrific crimes they never committed, families are shattered, and clients are plunged into an ever-expanding nightmare of bitter victimhood. Research shows that people treated for MPD/DID get worse AFTER they go into therapy. Just like those in a cult, they typically cut off contact with friends and family who question the disturbing direction of therapy and the increasingly bizarre memories that keep coming and coming like a B-grade pornographic horror movie. In the case of recovered memories leading to MPD/DID, the truly compassionate position is to challenge the memories and the process by which they are created.

In many ways the memory "recovery" process is probably very similar to the process by which your friend became convinced that she was remembering the trauma of her emergence through the birth canal, and the process by which other people learn to believe they remember past lives or experiences of alien abduction. In the case of recovered memories, however, the result is horrific trauma both to the client who comes to believe that she was savagely abused, and to her bewildered and devastated family and friends, who are often the targets of her accusations.

[Lil Missy]

131. No kidding. It happens. And there is never photographic evidence.

[barb162]

132. But wasn't the psychiatrist enough to verify the abuse?

It was a years long therapy with Sybil. In other words, severe emotional abuse was certainly there, right? And also the multiple personalities.

[Lil Missy]

134. There was certainly proof of severe physical abuse.

And I don't think she pulled the mental fugues outta her ass.

My only point was that some people do suffer horrible abuse, and do not turn into serial killers.

[barb162]

138. Oh yes.

I think I have to read a few books....

[Lil Missy]

141. Read "Sybil" as a starting point.

[XemaSab]

88. My mom's somewhat of an expert on dissociation

Dissociation is real, and so is MPD.

Some of the more lurid cases are manufactured, yes, but don't let that fool you into thinking it doesn't happen.

My mom's got a PhD in psychology. She was also in therapy for years, and under hypnosis she recovered memories of being molested by her neighbor when she was little. She called friends from her 'hood, and sure enough, they all knew to stay away from the creepy neighbor, cause other kids had been abused by him too. x(

[barb162]

136. Don't you think sociopaths are really that way from their "beloved "parents.

or whoever their caregivers were?

[merh]

67. Not all serial killers suffered in childhood

Society is not to blame, they were born missing something. Genetics is/was to blame. They were born with no conscious, no ability to relate to others as easily or normally as others are.

Leopold and Lobe were the intellectual and bored children of the wealthy, they had it all and from the reports I read, were not abused. They were just bored. They decided to snatch up a boy and kill him to see if they could get away with it.

They weren't serial killers, but could have been, if they weren't caught after their first bored kill.

The point is, there is no formula and no certain reason, for some it is society that "created" them and lord knows what it was that pushed them over the edge. For others it is genetics.

[Lil Missy]

68. I agree. I looked up that case, and it was merely mental masturbation.

Good Gawd, if they were so bored, why couldn't they go TP a yard instead of killing a kid? That's the part that baffles me.

[ConcernedCanuk]

20. Interesting phrase "Sociopaths watch and study real humans " - took me over 4 years

.
.
.

to realize that someone close to me does NOT react to logic/reasoning like most of us

I've studied sociopaths for only a few months now, but realize there is only one solution to deal with my own personal situation

have no contact

the lying and stealing still continue,

but I am working towards a solution where this person will no longer be in my environment -

ummm - LEGAL solution I should stress . .

and interesting resource for information and comments on sociopaths I found is at http://www.lovefraud.com

One comment I read in there is that one of the safest ways to deal with sociopaths is to treat them like an alien

which in some sort way they ARE

I've also read there is NO CURE for these kind of people - and one's best bet is to JUST GET AWAY

I'm reminiscent of a song called "Maneater" - "She'll chew you up and spit you out"

Well, in my 58 years, I've never met anyone that fits the bill like this one does

"Sociopaths watch and study real humans"

yup - they sure do

[arcadian]

26. Do you think calling somebody a "monster" dehumanizes them?

And contributes to the problem? Serial killers commit some horrendous crimes. Do you think they have lost all shreds of humanity?

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Friedrich Nietzsche

[rolltideroll]

59. They did not lost all hreds of Humanity

They never possessed them.

[snooper2]

112. Not all of them...One serial killer lady had a good childhood..

Even states she was loved growing up, did good in school...

Started doing evil shit in her 20's

It was one of the people the covered on the same show the OP mentioned. I'll try to find her name...

[Lil Missy]

113. There aren't too many women. Give me a hint, and I'll search too.

It couldn't be Wournos, because she had an absolutely horrible childhood.

Do you mean Karla Homolka?

[snooper2]

118. I think it was Sante Kimes

nt

[Lil Missy]

120. Oh gawd. She was a fucking case.

I guess I just considered her an opportunistic crook. But, there is a case to be made that she was a serial killer

[Bryn]

116. This reminds me of a young girl in Sharon Tate's case

named Leslie Van Houten. She had a good childhood life and was a homecoming queen. She joined Charles Mason's "Family" and became a killer.

[Lil Missy]

119. I started a few threads about her a while back. She is near death now.

She has one leg amputated, and is basically in need of constant medical care. She essentially requested a compassionate release, to go home and die with family.

Most of the responses I got were HELL NO! She must pay till she dies!

Sometimes I think I'm on the wrong website.

[Red State Rebel]

122. Leopold & Loeb - Wealthy, well brought up killers...

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Consider Richard Ramirez, Night Stalker. I saw a show where they flashed pics of him from the time

he was tiny until a teen and you could see him change emotionally from a sweet vulnerable child to a very broken kid. :( You could practically say, "There, that was the year the abuse began."

[amitten]

28. I had a psychologist tell me once that two things produce a bad

kid:

1. Abuse
2. Spoiling

She said spoiling actually produces the worst result of the two.

There are serial killers out there that had exceptionally good childhoods. Sometimes, people are just psychotic no matter what you do.

[Lil Missy]

35. I can believe that about spoiling. Come to think of it, the worst people I've ever encountered

were spoiled and lived lives of luxury and a feeling of entitlement. (Wish I could think of a better word)

I worked in a high profile position for one of the hotel chains that cater to the rich. Gawd were some of those people hard to deal with. I'm sure some of them would come shoot the place up if they knew where to find me.

[sammythecat]

87. "spoiled and lived lives of luxury and a feeling of entitlement"

Reminds me of a currently unemployed jerk we've all grown to know and despise.

[Lil Missy]

90. LOL! He is poison right now. Laura has a book deal.

[Left Is Write]

98. Pat Taylor Allanson is a perfect example of an over-indulged child

who grew up to do horrible, unspeakable things.

However, I do believe that to some extent a person is born with the capacity for such action and that the environment nurtures those seeds.

[PassingFair]

63. Dahmer seems to have been well brought up, no?

I don't think ALL of them had horrible childhoods.

[Lil Missy]

65. True, but he was abandoned at one point. When his parents split up.

You make a good argument. I would not call his a horrible childhood. Hell, I endured more than he did.

So, why did he turn into such a monster?

What? Why? WTF?

And for that matter, Bundy was well brought up too. Why did Bundy turn into such a cruel homicidal maniac because he found out he was illegitimate? His aunt was actually his mother.

Sorry dude. It does not justify or warrant homicide.

[SeattleGirl]

4. I've watched that show quite a bit.

Absolutely fascinating, but definitely freaky.

I confess, though, that I love true crime stuff.

[Lil Missy]

6. It facinates me how he rates them from 1 to 22. Sometimes it surprises me.

Like, someone who seems off the scale to me, he rates at a 15 or something. Whaaat?

[rug]

14. You should like Dr. Welner's Depravity Scale.

https://depravityscale.org/depscale/

[Lil Missy]

16. Thank you, I will. I used to read Crime Library when I had a boring job and lots of free time.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/

[old mark]

5. Jamastine, I have to disagree with that - I used to have 3 sociopathic

murderers among my "consumers" when I worked at a mental hospital several years ago, and they are certainly born with some missing factor that differentiates them from the rest of us. There is a history of abuse and neglect and just general craziness and evil in many but not all of their childhoods, but there is something in the individual that combines with the nurture aspects of their lives to make them think and act in terrible ways.

There is a book called "The Only Living Witness", a series of interviews with Ted Bundy before his execution that I recommend to anyone interested in attempting to understand this. I found it a very scary book because it is true, but it is a great tool and should be a textbook for people working with or attempting to understand sociopaths.
As Bundy said,"There are so many people - what's the big deal?"

mark

[Lil Missy]

8. I read 3 books on Bundy in those days, but I don't think that was one of them.

He was one I did not see abuse or neglect with, but yet he was such a prolific serial killer. And a cruel one at that.

Now that you mention it, I may have to get that book.

[Lil Missy]

10. I always felt kinda sad about Dahmer. What the hell happened with him?

And, what was his name? (Had to Google) Ed Gein. His mother drove him over the edge.

[Jamastiene]

15. Aileen Wuornos was the one I felt sad about more.

Dahmer too, but I really felt like Wuornos should not have been charged for the first murder. The rest, I can see, yes, but not the first one. I always felt for her.

I felt for Dahmer too. I did a research paper on him in college. When they said that he didn't want his victims to leave him, it really fucked with my mind.

[Lil Missy]

36. Aileen Wuornos had an absolutely horribly abusive history.

Unfortunately, I believe she was beyond repair. I certainly would never want her turned loose on society again.

[Lil Missy]

11. dupe

[ashling]

18. I'm not sure this is a good thing, though I guess it really depends on your goal

Is it to be a better serial killer?

:rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

24. I am just perfecting my killing skills before I get rid of those Lucky Charms for good

You don't even want to know my plans for Tony The Tiger. :)

[Lil Missy]

25. I'm taking notes, and making a list.

;)

[Jamastiene]

30. I'm laughing at the stupid mistakes they made that caused them to get caught.

:evilgrin:

[Lil Missy]

31. As I recall, Bundy got stopped on a traffic violation. Expired sticker or some such.

[Jamastiene]

32. Dahmer got stopped with a body in the back of the car and they let him go.

It was his first victim. Imagine that. To think, he was that calm about it and they were that oblivious about it that he claimed it was trash and they believed him. He could have been stopped after his first kill had they paid a little more attention and checked out the trash.

Then,
one of his victims escaped after Dahmer attempted to lobotomize the guy, and the police brought him back to Dahmer. Dahmer told the cops his buddy had had too much to drink and the cops left the victim with him. :wow:

[Lil Missy]

33. I recall the young boy that escaped. He was naked too.

Cops had a good laugh about queers, and sent the kid back to his eventual death.

[Jamastiene]

47. Homophobia kills in lots more ways than people realize. n/t

[ashling]

42. Scienter - first bite rule

First time they have to let him go? LOL

[Jamastiene]

46. Kinda like fishing.

If you catch a small one, you put them back to grow some more. :rofl:

I call that early period of Dahmer's serial killing life, the "Dumbbell" period. He killed his first victim with a dumbbell and the dumbbell cop believed a rotting body was trash...unless of course, he used scented trash bags. I guess that could have masked the odor, but not that much. Ewwww! I'm going to bleach my brain now.

[ashling]

41. Are you checking it 2x

to find out who's naughty and who is 3x?
:rofl:

[Lil Missy]

43. That's it! You are on the list! I am going to TX now, with my dog.

He will kiss you to death.

It's one of my more diabolical methods, called "Death by Slobber"

I'd throw him at you, but I don't want to hurt the dog.

;)

:P

[ashling]

45. Must see picture of dog.....puhleaze?

:hi:

[Lil Missy]

50. I found the camera, but the battery is dead!

Here is a good resemblance I found on Google.



If you ever see this face, fear for your life!

[ashling]

66. Maybe there is a serial battery killer on the loose LOL

That puppy is sooooooo cute!

[Lil Missy]

84. That would be true to say he is a serial battery killer.

Little shit.

[Left Is Write]

19. I watch that show a couple of times a week.

[ghostsofgiants]

22. One of my old sociology professors is probably the world's foremost serial killer expert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Leyton

You should check out his book "Hunting Humans."

[Lil Missy]

40. He is mentioned on the Crime Library website.

I'm off to read it now ...

www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/tick/evils_12.html

[Lil Missy]

62. That was a loooong read! Forget reading it, as it became very dry.

[ghostsofgiants]

76. Cool.

His stories were amazing. He had unprecedented access to Scotland Yard's files.

[Lil Missy]

78. Any links to those stories?

[ghostsofgiants]

79. Sadly, no.

I just remember from class that they were awesome, haha. It's been so long that I don't really remember the stories themselves, even.

[Lil Missy]

80. I'll bet that was a very interesting class!

[ghostsofgiants]

81. For sure. It was on violent crime in society.

I did my term paper on capital punishment for it. It was really interesting.

[Wetzelbill]

23. I don't watch it but yes, serial killers are fascinating

A few years ago I read Defending Gary, which is the book by the Green River Killer, Gary Ridgeway's lawyer. It was so compelling. It's enthralling trying to figure out how these people think. How can somebody commit so many brutal crimes, right? It's mind-blowing.

[Lil Missy]

51. I'm not up on that. Was that the BTK killer? I think I have a couple cases confused.

[Wetzelbill]

70. no Gary Ridgeway was the Green River Killer

in Washington. He would kill prostitutes around the Seattle-Tacoma area. The BTK killer was in Wichita, Kansas, his name is Dennis Rader.

[Lil Missy]

71. I looked them up after I posted that, and I should have posted a correction.

Sorry. I got mixed up.

But Gawd, they were both evil fuckers.

[Wetzelbill]

72. oh definitely

I haven't read a whole lot on Rader, but Ridgeway was awful. Had a low IQ, around 80, was sort of a weaker looking guy, but he was a highly advanced predator. Their was a part in Defending Gary when he told a story about killing a woman who he was a frequent client of, I think she was one of his first victims. He said that he loved her, then described how he killed her. There was no reason for it, he just did it. It made everybody listening, even the really hardcore law enforcement people, cry when they were interrogating him. I even had to wipe a tear or two out of my eyes reading it. I recall thinking: "Fuck... why, just why even do that?" The lack of feeling, of compassion is just so disturbing. I guess I can't reconcile how people can think so little of life like that.

[Lil Missy]

73. Oh, the lack of feeling, or compassion. I guess that is what separates us.

I could tell you an even dumber tale, that occurred during the wrongful death trial on my son. No matter now, it offended the jury too.

[Wetzelbill]

74. feel free to tell me if you want

If it's not something you feel comfortable telling or whatever that's fine. Or if you'd rather PM, that's good too.

[Lil Missy]

75. Oh, it was fucking ridiculous. I have no reason to hide it.

In his wrongful death trial, they got a Dr to testify that my son was too dumb and stupid to know he was suffering, or drowning or hurting in death. Thus, no "pain and suffering"

Oh, fuck me sideways. I know he was terrified. Beyond that, I don't care to say.

Edit: Drown a fucking dog or cat. Tell me they didn't suffer.

[arcadian]

27. The ones that are interesting to me are the really weird ones.

Son of Sam and Zodiac.

Son of Sam because he was hearing voices from a dog and he was writing weird ciphers. Zodiac because it is unsolved and because he was writing weird ciphers. What the hell is up with that?

The gorey ones and the cannibalistic ones I'm not really interested in.

I'm more into studying cults than serial killers, but those two case are the most interesting to me.

[Lil Missy]

37. You'd probably recall that mass suicide several years ago, can't think of their name.

They thought a spaceship was coming to get them. Or something like that.

For serial killers, I thought one of the most weird cases was Ed Gein. His mother truly drove him insane.

[BarenakedLady]

29. I'm fascinated too.

I always thought I'd make a decent criminologist. I did really well in those classes when I was pursuing a Corrections degree years ago.

[Lil Missy]

39. I think I could have too, in the investigative sense.

But I wouldn't be able to handle the crime scenes, or the gore.

I'd puke!

[Mollis]

34. I do like stuff like that.

I wanted to buy a book about serial killers at Barnes and Noble...but my boyfriend was apparently too creeped out that I wanted to get it.
I'll get it another day.

[Lil Missy]

38. Here's a link to the Crime Library. It's not just about serial killers.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/

[Mollis]

77. Thanks.

I am majoring in AOJ right now, so I like...pretty much all of those kinds of things. True Crime...favorite section at the book store. lol

[TreasonousBastard]

52. Years ago I read about Gilles de Rais and Herman Mudgett...

and started wondering just what it is that's broken in such people who choose torture and killing as a hobby.

[Lil Missy]

54. I'd never heard of that one.

But I'm sure it has been happening for centuries and just took time to put a name to it.

[rolltideroll]

60. They do not view other people as "real"

stemming from an out of control ego that makes their desires and wants the center of the universe. Similarly, ever notice paranoiacs never are being pursued by a local sheriif or the post office? It is almost always a large powerful organization or entity ( C.I.A. the President, The Devil) that is pursuing this person, allowing them to experience a feeling of importance.

[rolltideroll]

53. Can you help me get this couch in my van?

But only if your about a size 13.

[Lil Missy]

55. And, it puts the lotion on it's skin ....

[rolltideroll]

57. OR else it gets the Hose again

Give me back my fucking dog

[Lil Missy]

58. Oh, that freaked me out.

:scared:

[PassingFair]

64. Hard to believe he's Monk's boss now, huh?

Leeland Stottlemeier...







Ted Devine.
He's a wonderful actor.

[myrna minx]

69. *spray* Oh good lord, I never made that connection.

:wow:

[Lil Missy]

82. Anyone ever study Ed Gein? I thought he was an especially sad case.

As I recall, he was one of the few who was ruled legally insane.

His mother was awful, and created his insanity. When she died, he went into total meltdown. And thus, resulted in his being caught.

That's the difference that baffles me. His oppressive mother was gone, I would have flown like a bird! But he went to the dark side.

That is why such stories intrigue me. Why pick the dark and cruel side over flying away? If the source of your pain is gone, why not just float away? Why? Why not?

I guess the difference is why they were serial killers, and we are not.

[Lil Missy]

83. kick

[Jamastiene]

85. Maybe he had the "caged bird" syndrome.

Where he was oppressed for so long that when freedom was within his grasp, the urge to be free had left him and he didn't take the chance. I've heard of that. I don't know that was the case with him, but I would imagine it was a possible reason.

[Lil Missy]

91. That is very possible. He certainly did manipulate others for his excuse.

[jellen]

107. Ed Gein

We lived not too far from Geins place. It later burned down. When things cooled down,an old friend of mine went there to polk around. His old wood cook stove made it through the fire, so my friend pried off the name place from the stove. I'm sure you'll never believe this but the brand on the stove was "Lady Baker". I swear it's true. I don't know what he did with it, but probably sold it to a collector. Maybe the brand name coon be googled.

[Lil Missy]

109. I am not sure of the significance of "Lady Baker" Was that the name of one of his victims?

[jellen]

125. Lady Baker

Ed Gein cooked or baked women for cannibailzation.

[Lil Missy]

129. Oh duh! I didn't make that connection. Very creepy indeed!

[jellen]

99. Ice Man on A&E

Probably the most chilling evil person was the "Ice Man" on A&E.He was a hit man, for the mob I guess.He'd kill anybody. Anyone ever see it?

[Lil Missy]

101. My A&E right now says the Lipstick Killer.

Now I am off to Google "Ice Man". Gotta name?

[jellen]

103. ice man

Sorry no name.

[Lil Missy]

102. I suspect this is who you are referring to. I don't follow the mobster stories so much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Kuklinski

[jellen]

105. ice man

Yes, Kuklinski is the guy I was referring to.

[Bunny]

104. I've seen that. Just curious, do you think he really did the things he claimed to have done?

I watched it once, and was horrified and sickened by his tales. Then I watched it again, and I began to notice that he seemed to really enjoy saying those shocking things. Something about the way his eyes looked, or something. It made me wonder if he was really that depraved, or if he was just your average run-of-the-mill hitmen who wanted to stand out from the crowd. Either way, there's no question he was a very bad man.

[BeachBaby]

106. I took a criminology course in college.

The prof's focus for the semester was on serial killers.

While it wasn't an across-the-board conclusion, I found it interesting that the vast majority of the serial killers studied, had no siblings. He/she was the only child in most of these situations.

[Lil Missy]

110. Now that is something I had never considered, or noticed.

But you're right, most of the ones off the top of my head right now had no siblings.

Now I have to ponder how that plays into it. :freak:

[LynneSin]

108. Was George Bush in it

I mean how many people did he willing send to their death with this war that has no end. I just hope that Obama gets us out soon enough before this becomes a taint on his administration

[Lil Missy]

111. Not yet. gwb would take a weekly series, I'm sure.

I'd bet that fucker had a plenty disturbing history before he ever became (stole) victory 2000.

He's the kind of guy that probably pulled the legs off spiders, and set cats on fire. Sick motherfucker. No doubt in my mind.

[Lil Missy]

114. It's on now. They are studying anger.

Well, I could volunteer for such a study. Who does not get angry???

Ask me the right questions, and I'll get plenty fired up and rude!

[Lil Missy]

121. Well, it wasn't anything to get pissed about.

[Kitty Herder]

123. They're fascinating in a way, but if I read about them or watch documentaries

about them, I have nightmares for months. I'm not kidding. :scared: I don't know how people like psychologists, correctional officers, lawyers, etc. can stand to work with them. All I can say is I admire their courage.

[Jamastiene]

128. I would imagine they have to have very strong minds and a very

good understanding of human nature. I sure don't think I could do it.

[Ptah]

127. I knew someone that was executed by the state of Arizona

:scared:

[MrSlayer]

133. Serial Killers are one of the things I study in my spare time.

Prisons, serial killers, the mafia and L.A. gangs are a few things I'm quite interested in and educated about. I find it quite fascinating.

[Lil Missy]

135. Mafia is an entirely different topic, deserving of it's own thread.

[barb162]

142. What channel is this show on? I have never heard of it.

I'm wondering if it's some cable channel we don't have. A premium channel?

[Lil Missy]

143. It's on I.D. channel for me. I think that means Investigative Discovery.

I do believe that is an extended cable channel. I'm not sure.