I need some help here, anyone ever had to deal with someone with narcissistic personality disorder??

[belladonna]

I'm trying to figure out how best to deal with the ex and I have at least figured out, albeit too late, what type of personality I'm dealing with here. Now, narcissist is a term that gets thrown around a lot, so I did my research on this and he is a classic case. Hell, they could write a textbook on him, he fits the profile so well.

It's becoming incredibly frustrating because, as anyone who has dealt with this sort of person probably knows, he DOES NOT live on the same planet or participate in reality as the rest of us know it. Unfortunately, I do have to deal with him now that we have a child together and it's becoming quite traumatic for her. We're talking serious behavioral changes since the visitations started, so bad that I'm actually taking her to the pediatrician on Monday to see if he has any ideas on how I can get her through this until he either starts acting like a human being or I'm able to get the visitations stopped.

Hell, half of you probably don't know me or barely remember me because I've been pretty much absent from anything other than trying to survive this toxic relationship for the past four years and I pretty much gave up everything, including DU, while he sucked the life out of me and then, after the break-up, dealt with the dirty tricks and emotional blackmail.... the list goes on and on and, I guess, will continue to grow as long as he's in my life.

So, anyone had to deal with this type of person and, if so, got any advice on how to cope with him? ANY input is appreciated. If you just want to share your experience, but don't have any advice to share, feel free.

I may not be able to respond tonight, but I'll be checking tomorrow and kicking it for the day crowd.... so please, chime in!!

[flvegan]

1. You want I should get a tarp and a shovel, dear?

Just kidding of course. I have no idea, just kicking your thread and taking the opportunity to say :hi: and wish you the best.

[belladonna]

6. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me

Just kidding, of course.... but I appreciate the sentiment, truly!

How goes it with you? :hi:

[LeftyMom]

2. My ex.

Luckily we didn't have kids- he had a genetic issue.

Document, document, document. If you can't get visitation stopped pronto, see if you can get it limited to supervised visitation if it's not already, as those tend to be infrequent and will be stopped if the noncustodial parent isn't on their best behavior.

[belladonna]

7. I'm documenting everything

Down to the smallest details. We go back to court on June 2nd and, fortunately, I think the guardian ad litem is starting to see him for what he truly is. I'm doing something tomorrow that may get the visitation stopped sooner... we'll see how it goes.

[DeepBlueC]

3. narcissists I remember...

It started with Gary Condit...from that time on pretty much everyone who was roundly disliked somehow proved to be classic narcissists, verified by the Internets, the the most notable lately of course being W. These characteristics are easily seen in people we *dislike* who are not necessarily disliked by everyone. I no longer trust myself to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder. I kind of think I don't much trust anyone else to do it either, regardless of professional qualifications.

[aquaman]

4. A true Narcissistic personality type......

Is impossible to deal with. They are only concerned about themselves. I am a therapist and usually bang my head against a brick wall when I have to deal with someone like your ex. Glad that he is your ex though. Advice? Fuck him. Stay away from him, that would be my advice. Deal with him with the child obviously, but his main concern is himself, not your child. And he will try to use your child to get what he wants, because he is a shallow shit, I am sure.

[belladonna]

8. We went the counseling route, before the break-up

I have a feeling the counselor we saw did some headbanging herself after the sessions were over. Hell, the sessions used to run over the usual allotted hour because nobody could get him to shut up. He would also try to put himself on her level and use all these terms that, I guess, were supposed to convince her that he was her equal. Then, of course, he would promptly tell her she was wrong about everything and completely ignore any advice she gave us. It was truly maddening and one of the last straws for me in the relationshp.

The main problems is that, during the visitations, he seems to relish the fact that she screams and cries and wants nothing to do with him, probably because he knows how much it upsets me. That is my main concern right now because it really does seem to be bringing about some alarming behavioral changes with her.

[nini]

15. "he seems to relish the fact that she screams and cries and wants nothing to do with him"

Your child is the issue - which you know. This statement above shows there is mental abuse going on. Document everything, get your child in counseling for backup and work on getting control of his visitation FOR HER SAKE.

I'm not saying he should be kept away from her completely, but controls need to be set in place like supervised supervision because he's toxic. Just because she is his biological father does not give him the right to play his twisted games with her too.


Good Luck.

[belladonna]

25. Visitations were supervised until a few weeks ago

Problem is, they were supervised by the people at the church he's latched onto and they did very little real supervision, at least from what I can tell. The guardian ad litem seems to seriously be considering stopping the church's involvement as they've been extremely uncooperative when she tries to talk to them about the visits. They actually tried to tell her the nursery workers names were confidential and they couldn't supply them to her, believe it or not. They finally let go of one name of a person that I'm not even sure has been there that much when she pushed them.

[applegrove]

5. Try the bully online site. There are also sites where you can go to, that deal with psychopaths,

where you can talk to and befriend people who have been in relationships with certain personality types. I have PTSD from a freak who was also a psychopath. I never dated him but did talk to him one night in a bar and rejected him and he was all over my life and in the lives of my friends and co workers after that... Setting me up.... Destroying my relationships. My heart goes out to you. Best to get informed. I would put your daughter into therapy and make sure she stays there until she is all grown up in which case she can decide if she needs the extra help.

[belladonna]

9. I'm sure the therapy will come

She's a little young for it right now, being only 19 months old, but with the changes I'm seeing in her lately, I'm willing to bet she's going to need some serious help if he stays in her life. I'll check that site out, thanks! I've found a lot of info out there, but this seems like it might be particularly helpful.

[applegrove]

11. The site didn't exist when I needed it. When it all blew open for me and I started to figure

things out slowly..there was the internet or the bully online site. I had to put words to all the behaviour without realizing how common all those behaviours were. Just so long as you know you are not alone that is what matters most.

[OmahaBlueDog]

10. I wish Lil Missy were here. She had a thread somewhat along this line a few weeks back

However, she's been MIA for about a week. LM, if you're lurking, let us know.

[ThomCat]

12. I've knew ONE person with narcissistic personality disorder

and there is no way to deal with it. The whole world revolved around him. Everything was judged in relation to him.

There were the endless stories and lies he told just to manipulate people. He had a Need to manipulate everyone because everyone had to doing what He wanted, had to be thinking what He wanted, everything had to be the way He wanted.

Nobody else was important, though he would constantly lie to try to make everyone feel they were important to him. Any inconvenience, trouble, or expense he might cause someone else was totally inconsequential and insignificant to him. He didn't care.

x(

If your ex is anything like this then I am very incredibly sorry that you and your child have to deal with him. :(

The best thing for both of you would be for him to drop off the face of the earth and never bother you again. But that clearly isn't an option. If your ex is a real narcissist then you're in for years of hassles, lies, manipulations, evasions and problems.

:hug:

[belladonna]

13. I doubt he's going anywhere, unfortunately

I wish constantly that he would just go away, but I fear you're right and he'll be around for a long, long time.

Oh, and yeah, he lies constantly and is extremely manipulative. He's also very adept at self-sabotage and playing the victim after he ruins yet another job, friendship, etc. The only thing I can think of to do is to understand him as much as I possibly can and, maybe, just maybe, beat him at his own game. :shrug:

[ThomCat]

14. Beat him at his own game?

I have no idea how you could try to do that without being far too invested in his life. :(

I hope you really don't want to invest yourself any further in his life than you are forced to.

Please keep as loose a tie to him as you can manage with him having as little influence over your life as possible. :hug:

You're too good a person to be so tied to someone like that. I remember you as being very smart and very kind. I would hate to see the kind of bitterness someone like him would cause you if you get too entangled in his life. :(

[belladonna]

26. Maybe I didn't put that the right way

By beat him at his game, I mean that his game seems to be sticking around and making Maggie and I as miserable as he possibly can. I intend to learn as much as I can about the way he ticks so that I can figure out a way to make him go the hell away.

[Mopar151]

61. Don't go there!

A) It's what he really wants B) Therin lies madness C) He lives the sickness, 24/7 - we are merely amateurs, and will lose big if we play his game.

And lots of luck - Part of my being "restructured" out of an 18 yr job had to do with a full-blown narcisst being thrown into a dept. I supervised, and had a couple more guys on the fence.
Ironically, I left with severance and refrences. The new dept. supervisor had more horsepower than I had had, fired his ass cold 6 wks later.

[murielm99]

16. My mother most likely has narcissistic personality disorder.

When the subject first came up, I had never heard of this disorder. My brother's therapist suggested that this might be her problem. Of course, she has never met the woman, so she suggested this with extreme caution. She let me and my brother know that our mother would need to be observed, interviewed and tested, and even then, a diagnosis would be difficult.

My brother has been counseled by more than one professional. Both agree that there is something like that going on. I went into therapy last summer. My therapist thinks there may be a personality disorder, too.

I am not a professional. I am just someone whose entire family was screwed up by this sick, nasty woman. What kills me is that she will never be held accountable for the lives she has ruined.

Do your best to understand personality disorder. Put your daughter and yourself first. Try, as much as possible, to keep this piece of human wreckage out of your life. Learn not to let him upset you or control you. It will not be easy. Narcissists are very clever. Don't be afraid to get help from the courts, law enforcement and a good therapist.

I try to keep my mother out of my life as much as I can. She is eighty years old now, and she can still make life hell on earth for all of us. Best of luck to you.

[bicentennial_baby]

17. Just give the word...

I'll kick his ass 6 ways 'til Sunday.

[belladonna]

24. If only it were that simple

I'd give you the go ahead in a heartbeat. Hell, I have 4 brothers who'd kick his ass if they thought it would help but, unfortunately, it would only serve to help along his pretense of being the put upon victim in all of this. All I can really do now is tru tp understand how his twisted mind works and use it against him.

Btw, when is your graduation? There is a slight chance I may be up that way near the end of May and I'd love to figure out a way to be there!

[bicentennial_baby]

28. May 29th!

It's a Friday. Let me know! :D

[belladonna]

36. Cool! I'm figuring out that Boston is the place to go in my line of work

So I plan on making a trip up there to feel things out and I MIGHT have a job interview up there the last week of May. Keep your fingers crossed for me and maybe I'll get to make my trip both business and pleasure :D :bounce:

[no name no slogan]

18. You may want to cross-post this in the mental health forum

You may get a response there.

[SarahB]

19. My mother unfortunately.

Right now, for example, we just bought a house and are in the process of moving. My husband and I both work full-time (I work nights and neither of us have time off) and between the two of us, we have five kids! Again, I'm the "bad daughter" because I'm not there for her right now and she's absolutely oblivious to what I'm going through (she was not forgotten today, but I simply do not have the time or level of masochism needed to spend the entire day with her). That's been the story my entire life. I've had to learn to accept that I will never have a mother who can give me what a mother should as well as learn to prioritize her place in my life. I do not engage in her manipulation, guilt and accusations with huge boundaries in place. It took me a long time to stop blaming myself, but once I got through that, it becomes easier (although some vigilance is required).

In the case of child custody, document, document, document. You child will grow up feeling like crap the more contact she has, so keep it minimal and take extra care to reinforce just how much YOU love her.

[belladonna]

30. Yep, they have no empathy whatsoever, do they?

When I was pregnant with Maggie and having health problems, he would keep me up all night with his paranoid rantings and get my heart rate so high I thought I'd probably have a heart attack. I was seeing a cardiologist at the time who told me, with the ex present, that it was extremely important to keep my heart rate down (I had a resting heart rate of about 115-120 at the time). When I went into labor? He decided just before we went to the hospital that my mother had slighted him and didn't want her at the hospital at all unless she apologized, for what I don't know. My mother always treated him well, so I never have figured out what that was all about. Hell, I could go on all day, but you see what I mean, I'm sure.

Btw, so NICE to see you again :hug:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. Good Luck. --

The sanest way is to have as little interaction as possible. Keep it all brief, simple and put everything in writing.

Evey one here, telling you about visitation and sticking to it...let me say this:

The problem will be with HIM sticking to it. He will constantly need to be changing it, because of HIS schedule, and of course HIS issues and minor peccadilloes will be EMERGENCIES to him and you will have to adjust YOUR schedule accordingly.

[belladonna]

31. He's already pulled that crap

Simply didn't show for a visitation, for no good reason that I can fathom, and actually TOLD the guardian ad litem that he didn't feel comfortable talking to me so he did not ALLOW me to call him or call me to let me know. I documented the HELL ouf of that one and, when he violated the protective order as well (which is still in place, only amended for the purposes of visitation) I filed a show cause for both violations.

[Z_I_Peevey]

21. As far as the nitty-gritty details on child visitation, etc.

I agree with the other posters about documenting every detail. You don't say where you are in the process (separated, divorced, etc.), but try to have witnesses for the transfers of the child. YOU become as stoic and as unemotional as a rock. Don't feed the ex's need for drama. Mirror HIM for a change.

Get counseling for yourself. If the counselor doesn't "get it," keep shopping until you find one who does. Enlist the help of your state's social services. Get the best lawyer you can afford to hammer out an extremely detailed visitation agreement. Follow it to the letter.

If you've read the many internet sites devoted to this subject, remember that not all of them are credible. Trust your own instincts as to the level of danger you're facing, and act accordingly. Of course, (as you already no doubt know)have no contact whatsoever with your ex, except on matters involving the child.

If the ex is truly an NPD case, then he'll probably grow bored with you and the child in six months or so if you give him no feedback or narcissistic supply, and he'll go away on his own. If you are unlucky enough to be dealing with a stalker-type, well, then that's another story.

Develop a personal support network, if you can. Again, if he's NPD, you've been isolated from friends, family and the outside world in general for quite some time. If you feel you would benefit from social contact, seek it out. (Likewise, if you gain strength from solitary reflection, then go that way.) Do whatever it takes to make yourself stronger, so that you can protect both yourself and your child.

Best of luck to you.

[noamnety]

23. I was typing as you were posting

and I see you had the same thoughts as me - phrased better in your post - about learning to be stoic and not feeding the drama. Such a great skill to develop - and something very few of us are ever taught. It's mandatory in some states to go through some sort of marriage counseling, but I've never seen any sort of mandatory divorce counseling session for parents. It sucks we all have to work that out on our own.

[Z_I_Peevey]

27. It's a difficult path,

and there are too damned many of us who have walked it.

But still, better to be us than them, eh?

[belladonna]

33. I keep myself very stoic and unemotional where he is concerned

And where Maggie is concerned, I try to stay as positive and upbeat as I can with her when I'm dropping her off. THAT is extremely hard, but I have to do it for her sake and also because I KNOW he feeds on my misery and I refuse to let him feed off of me anymore.

[belladonna]

32. Thanks for t he advice

We weren't married and, for the first 6 months, my daughter was on the protective order, so visitation just started in February. It's pretty limited, 5 hours a week, but I'm sure he'll try to go for more when he can. As far as the various internet sites go, that's one of the reasons I came back to the Lounge, to see if anyone had real experience with this sort of thing. Some seem fairly credible, but some not so much. I have a pretty good support network where my family is concerned, though he tried his best to destroy that, but not a whole lot else. I'm thinking about the counseling route, but I have to make a choice of affording a lawyer or a counselor right now and the lawyer simply has to take precedence.

[Z_I_Peevey]

37. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders,

(of course you do, this is D-freaking-U, heh), so I'm betting you'll be OK. I agree, lawyer first, then counselor later. You'd be amazed what you can get through if you set your jaw resolutely enough.

[belladonna]

39. That's what the lawyer I consulted with last week told me

That I seemed to have a good head on my shoulders and seemed to be doing this for the right reasons. He's one of the best lawyers in my area, so I'm gathering the money I need to retain him before the next hearing on June 2nd.

[noamnety]

22. My answer would depend a lot on details you didn't discuss

Is the visitation occurring at your house with your supervision, or at his house without you there?

The reason I ask is that your daughter might be reacting to tension between you and him - and left alone with him she might be fine. When I got divorced, we tried working out visitation amongst ourselves, and there were arguments about when they would occur, who would drive, discussions about the unpaid child support. Unfortunately we allowed some of that to happen within earshot of our kid for a while, til we got smarter. Any of those talks NEED to happen without her there - with her playing outside while you are inside on the phone having those conversations, or while she is asleep. No matter how much of an ass he's being, it's your responsibility not to bring your fights with him into her world.

The best thing I did was get friends of the court to work out the details for us once I realized it was causing us conflict. He viewed it as me being vindictive and not working with him. From my perspective, though, the big advantage was that they handled everything and child support was no longer my problem to enforce, therefore I was no longer emotionally wrapped up in resentment, stress over feeling I should raise the issue, all of that. It was just a big swooooosh of relief that we didn't ever have to have those conversations again. Likewise, they worked out which weekends a month he'd have her and a rotating holiday schedule, so it just wasn't an issue after that.

If your relationship with him is toxic, reduce your contact with him to just picking up your kid and dropping off your kid. Emotional blackmail is most effective (for him) when you let yourself get emotionally wrapped up in what he's doing - and he gets "rewarded" by seeing you upset. You can't control the fact that he's trying to do that, but you can control your reaction, at least on the outside. Learn to keep a neutral face (whether your daughter is present or not) if you have to see him, learn to say "ummmhmmmm" or "we can talk about this later." And STICK to that - and make those conversations happen on the phone or better yet email so you have a record of the conversations if you need them, so you have a chance to edit your words carefully, and so he can't hear the reaction in your voice or see it in your face.

Part of what you posted implies that you think he's letting her cry because he knows it will get a reaction out of you. See my point here?

That's not putting the blame on you at all, I'm just saying that you might want to look at whether or not your reactions are fueling his motivation/actions and sort of enabling the situation to continue.

(Take or leave all this advice as needed - it's a stab in the dark obviously since I don't know your situation - it's just speaking from my own experience which may or may not apply.)

[belladonna]

34. The visitations are taking place at the church he attends

That was the way he wanted it and I didn't fight it, though I really don't think that it's the greatest idea. All of my communications with him are through e-mail and, when I drop her off, I only communicate the necessary information that he needs (things like that she refused to eat breakfast, so she'll probably need to eat, once she had a fever and he needed to keep an eye on it, things like that). All of the visitation details are worked out with the guardian ad litem without her present, so that's not really a problem.

[ismnotwasm]

29. I have

What I ended up doing is staying far away. I'd rather deal with a borderline. You are talking about some of the most poisonous people on the planet.

That being said, before my decision to NOT deal with it, I let the person live in his own reality and didn't challenge it, simply because it's futile. I found a comfortable space, comfortable topics, learned to very accurately read cues and forgive unreasoning blow-ups. This is a family member with some good points, none of which are worth sticking around for.

Edit; at this point you don't have the luxury of staying away, but as soon as you do, however long it takes, I recommend it

[belladonna]

35. Yeah, I finally figured out the futility in challenging his perception of reality

He simply exists in a whole different world and nothing I can say penetrates. And, believe me, the moment the opportunity presents itself, I will put as much distance as I can between us.

[ismnotwasm]

41. I did just think of something

These people are expert at character assassinations, usually by twisting just enough truth to sound plausible. What I learned is to give them enough rope to hang themselves with. They're generally true cowards, and will twist and turn from any perceived real authority that could possibly make them pay consequences. I know this is vague, I guess what I'm trying to say is grow a very tough skin (if you haven't already, I can't imagine dealing this one of these people on such an intimate level and not learn pretty damn good defenses)They usually end up fucking themselves over.

[belladonna]

42. That's kind of what I'm counting on with him

I will admit that I am beginning to subtly push some of his buttons to get him to self-destruct faster, feeding his paranoia with extremely subtle things that I say and do. As far at the tough skin, believe me, it's tough as nails at this point. I cannot let him get to me no matter what. I have only one priority and that is getting Maggie through this with as little damage as possible.

[BeachBaby]

38. My father is a definite, and most likely my mother, too.

But since I can't say for sure (about my mom), I won't describe my dealings with her.

My dad, on the other hand....he is former military, and has been a most extreme fundie since the early 70s. I was born in 1969 - so in other words, my brother and I have had to deal with it for our entire lives.

I had always known that he was a control freak, but I also knew that there were control freaks, and that there were CONTROL FREAKS. His struggle to be King of the Mountain was, by far, much more obsessive for him than by any other controlling person I knew/know. I won't get into any particular stories of my childhood with you, but I will explain how I learned about this narcissistic disorder.

In 2000, his father passed away. My dad was executor of the estate - probably the absolute WORST title a narcissist could be given. He had sole control over my grandfather's million-dollar estate.

What SHOULD have been an easy liquidation of assets, became a SIX YEAR BATTLE. Motions and court hearings on a monthly basis. A lot of the money was tied up in stocks. My dad told his siblings that he wasn't going to sell the stocks, because he believed that the numbers would go up. His brother-in-law is someone who is VERY knowledgeable with the stock market, and told my dad that NOW (meaning late 2000) is the time to sell. My dad - who thinks he knows EVERYTHING, and that everyone else is not as intelligent as he - shot it down, and told everybody that HE is in charge. His siblings, as a result, retained attorneys.

I'm not an attorney - but I am a paralegal. And every now and then, he would tell me of his latest combats with his siblings. I would tell him that the things he is doing is extremely unethical, bordering on the illegal, and that he is playing with fire. He told me I didn't know what I was talking about. My mother and her two sisters are all well-seasoned wills & estates legal secretaries. They warned him. He didn't listen to them, either.

What resulted was 9/11 and an immediate stock drop; so THEN he told his siblings that he was going to let the stocks sit and make a comeback. And they did, for a little while. But we all know what happened with the stock market. All in all, what used to be $700,000 in stocks, dwindled to $340,000.

When the court hearings started up, he blamed his siblings for all the "drama" (his term) and when he got his final bill from HIS attorney, he took the money to pay for it, out of the estate. All hell broke loose AGAIN.

Without going into detail, he was committed to a mental hospital in 2005. When I was visiting one day, a psychiatrist asked to speak to my mother. I sat with my mother as the psychiatrist asked my mother a series of questions - and my jaw dropped as my mother answered "no" to everything she should have been saying "yes" to, and saying "yes" to everything she should have said "no" to. I guess the psychiatrist saw my shocked facial expressions, because after my mother was told she could go in and visit my dad, the psychiatrist pulled me aside because she wanted to have a talk with me. I then went through all the questions with her and gave her the correct answers.

One of the questions was whether my dad owned a firearm. I told her that yes, he does own a gun. She told me that because of my father's "condition", we had two choices: we could surrender the firearm, or the police dept would show up at my parents' house with a warrant to seize the firearm. Being that I knew how warrants are executed (they pretty much ransack the house), I told the psychiatrist that I would find the gun and turn it in to our local police dept.

And that's what I did. My mother then immediately told my father - and he called me from the mental hospital, spewing so much hatred that I knew then that I was dealing with a complete lunatic.

It was during this time that I also spoke with the other two psychiatrists and social worker who evaluated him for two weeks. They asked me if I knew of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and Narcissistic Rage. I did not. They recommended a book, which I promptly found and read. It shed SO MUCH LIGHT on my father. He is an emotionally and mentally dangerous man. My mother poo-poo'd the whole thing.

I started seeing a counselor in January 2006. After months of counseling, I had her "blessing" to "divorce" my parents. Things had gotten so unbearable that my counselor told me I had two options: remove myself from them, or start taking anti-anxiety drugs to cope with them. I knew what I had to do - and taking drugs wasn't the answer.

Sorry for the lengthiness - but this topic is hot-button for me, it shoots straight to my heart, and so I know what you are going through. It sucks the energy and life out of you, no doubt. If you need anything, pm me. I'm here. :hug:

[belladonna]

40. Wow, your dad sounds like my ex in a lot of ways

They'll do the damnedest things to maintain control, even if it's to their disadvantage. I just found out recently that the lawyer who represented my ex in his divorce during his first marriage actually quit, just threw his hands up in frustration and told him that he wasn't going to risk being disbarred over what SHOULD have been a cut and dried divorce.

Btw, what is the name of that book? I have 2 books currently on order that are highly recommended at other sites and I'm curious to see if it might be the same one or if there's another book I should look for. My main goal right now is to educate myself as much as possible about him and what makes him tick so that I can deal with him in the best way possible for my daughter and myself.

Thanks for all of the advice and info.... no need to apologize for the lengthiness, I rather appreciate it!

[BeachBaby]

55. I could easily write a book about him. So many memories.

Funny thing, repressed memories are....just yesterday I was telling a friend a story about my fundamental, evangelical upbringing, when a particularly disturbing memory popped back into my head. Resurrected memories are upsetting, but also validating.

As for the book, this is the one that was recommended to me:

"Why is it Always About YOU? The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism" by Sandy Hotchkiss, LCSW

If I had a dollar for every time I said "Holy shit" while I read that book, I would be a very wealthy woman.

Another book that I recently found to be helpful is:

"Emotional Blackmail - When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation and Guilt to Manipulate You" by Susan Forward, Ph.D.

Thanks for this thread, belladonna. It's been cathartic, in a way. Not that I would ever want anyone to experience what I've experienced, but it helps to know that others understand.

ON EDIT: If you choose to read any books on this topic, I would like to suggest one thing:

Take your time reading them. Don't feel like you have to absorb the book in one shot. It's powerful information, no question; but I found myself going through waves of disbelief, enlightenment...but also feeling foolish and stupid for feeling like I enabled him all these years. Granted, my counselor quickly worked with me on my feelings, and helped me realize the overpowering strength of narcissists...but it took a lot of time, and a lot of healing.

[BreweryYardRat]

57. Seconding the recommendation of Forward's book.

Haven't read that one in particular, but I read her "Toxic Parents," and that was very helpful.

[belladonna]

65. I have one of those on order right now

The "Why Is It Always about You" book. I'll look into finding the other one, sounds like it could be helpful. I'll definitely take my time reading them, as I REALLY want to understand what makes this guy tick. I really feel as though that's the only way I'll ever get away from him, though I sometimes fear I never will. Thanks so much for sharing your experience with me... just as you said, it helps to know that others have been there and dealt with it and can understand what I'm going through.

[dgibby]

43. Do you know what is motivating him to want a relationship with Maggie?

Obviously, he doesn't care about/love her because he's emotionally incapable of loving anyone other than himself, so I'm guessing he's using her to control you.

Is he paying child support? If so, perhaps you could get him to give up all parental rights and in exchange, you will give up all rights to child support.

I know that sounds extreme, but that's exactly what a friend of mine had to do to get her ex out of her son's life. Best deal she ever made.
The funny thing is, she realized that's what he wanted all along, but let him think he was making the decision and that he'd won this big victory. She played him like a fine-tuned fiddle!

Another thing, if the visits must continue, I would urge you to get the courts to pick a neutral meeting place. His church is definitely NOT acceptable.

Best of luck to you and Maggie. I hope you get this toxic whacko out of your lives soon.

[belladonna]

45. He pays child support now

He didn't pay it for 6 months and I honestly didn't even want it. However, when I filed for custody, to make it all official, the judge ordered support. He didn't even want visitation until he was ordered to pay support and the thought has crossed my mind to offer him an out if he'll sign over his parental rights. My problem is in how best to approach him with this so that he doesn't try to use it somehow to make me look bad and, believe me, he is GOOD when it comes to manipulation. I think his biggest motivation in it all is that he is clinging to this as a way to keep me in his life and continue to control me. It's very obvious from his behavior at the visitations that he has very little interest in being a real father to her since he seems to go out of his way to keep her crying and unhappy. At one visit, it was actually somewhat creepy to watch his reaction to her distress and I actually recounted this incident to the guardian ad litem. She was, as usual, screaming and crying and trying to cling to me and he had this really creepy smile on his face that just stayed there the entire time. He never tried to interact with her at all to calm her down, just sat there with this eerie smile on his face, as though he was sort of getting off on it.

Thanks for the good wishes.

[dgibby]

47. Maybe you could get a 3rd party to broach to subject with him.

The trick is to make him think he's winning.

BTW, I'm a retired nurse, and it's really not to early to get Maggie into counselling. Not only will it help her, it will also help you, AND it would be a great way to document the negative effect he's having on her. You need all the ammo you can get!

[belladonna]

48. I'm taking her to see her pediatrician tomorrow

I'm really concerned about the behavioral changes I'm seeing in her right now and it's getting so bad that she actually hurts herself by banging her head on the floor. I'll definitely try to get a referral to the right people to deal with counseling for her. It's just a little harder with her being as young as she is, but I'm sure there has to be something out there that can help.

I'm going to bring it up to my lawyer (I just finally got together the money I need to retain him) and see what he thinks is the best way to approach this offer of giving up parental rights in exchange for no child support.

[dgibby]

50. I hope your lawyer is the Junk Yard type.

Just make sure the lawyer and pediatrician are both up on NPD.

[belladonna]

51. The lawyer is definitely the junk yard type

He's also been around for a very long time and has a good relationship with the guardian ad litem, so that's helpful. I'm going to talk to him about NPD the next time I see him and, if he's not educated, he will be!!

As for the pediatrician, her doctor SEEMS like the type that will take this seriously and, at the very least, listen to my concerns and take them seriously. We'll see what happens tomorrow, I guess.

[dgibby]

53. Keep us posted on your progress, as you know we all care about you.

[Jade Fox]

44. You have my utmost sympathy....

As I have gotten older, I realize my deceased mother was surely a text-book case of narcissistic personality. Having no sense of the impact of her behavior on others, she would do and say terrible things to us, her children. So, I know how maddening narcissists are to try and have any sane relationship with.

I have no sage advice for you. I wish you the best of luck. :hug:

[belladonna]

46. Sage advice is appreciated

But I'll take hugs and good vibes too :hi:

[grasswire]

49. Survivor of long painful marriage to an NPD-er here

First you must always remember that you do not ever deserve to be abused, and emotional abuse is battering.

Twenty years post-divorce, my NPD ex is still waging war against me. The heartbreak he has caused by manipulating family members is incalculable.

I must say that the only, only thing that influences him is someone more powerful than he is. When I am in alliance with a more powerful person, he is stymied. A lawyer, a psychologist, a strong person of some kind.

Otherwise, he is a steamroller. A devious, twisted steamroller who will start family trouble every several months to "stir the pot".

You have done the first thing. You have educated yourself. I was lucky in that respect -- his former business partner was a psychologist and told me that he was NPD. Once I had a name for the behavior, many things made more sense.

Scars are still with me. I'm still afraid of him and get a knot in the pit of my stomach at any contact.

Good luck, my dear. Take care of yourself.

[belladonna]

52. Yes, it started with emotional abuse for the most part

Then, when I started to resist his control and took it away from him, he turned violent on me. For a few months before the break-up, when he'd start his paranoid rantings and was determined to fight endlessly, I would flee... take my daughter and just leave, go to a motel or to my mother's house if she were in town, and wait out the storm. I finally had enough of dragging my child out, usually in the middle of the night, and having to leave my home and, the next time he started up, I simply refused to engage him and also made it clear that I was NOT leaving my home. That's when I got punched.... I guess he realized that his control over me was slipping and he couldn't handle it.

I hope that, one day, you can finally get rid of your ex altogether, just as I hope to do with mine :hug:

[SPKrazy]

54. Don't use a wood chipper

until you saw him up

and don't do that until you've hung him upside down to bleed out

and oh never mind

narcissistic personality disorders are hard to deal with. remember they truly have a fragile ego and the narcissistic wound is deep. not saying walk on eggshells, but you have a daughter and somehow you have to work through this. or get full custody and disallow visitation, if he's paying child support and has a job, that is hard to do.

Support your daughter and tell her over and over that mommy and daddy had the problem and it has nothing to do with her.

She might need counseling. I don't know what behavior changes you've seen but getting the pediatrician's opinion is a good place to start.

good luck!

[Z_I_Peevey]

56. I'd counsel that she NOT claim any "mommy blame" if

none really exists. It sounds to me as if it was not a "mommy AND daddy" problem, but rather a daddy one. Don't blame the victim; that just prolongs the problem.

YMMV

[belladonna]

66. Honesttly, at first, I did blame myself

Now that I've had the benefit of perspective and looking back on it, I can honestly say I am without fault in this one. I tried everything imaginable to make this thing work, but you just can't make someone like him happy without sacrificing your soul to him. Sounds melodramatic, I know, but it's absolutely true.

[rug]

58. Ask the mods in GDP.

[belladonna]

67. Heh, now THAT was funny!

Thanks for the much needed laugh :D:

[BlueIris]

59. My ex is a sociopath (I don't like the term NPD). IMO, there is no solution except

getting him out of your life and the child's life. Best of luck to you.

[belladonna]

68. Yeah, I find myself referring to him as a sociopath more and more

It fits him much more, I guess. Maybe NPD just sounds too benign :shrug:

Working hard on the getting him out of our life part...

[MrScorpio]

60. Have you talked to a lawyer about this?

It might come to an attempt to rescind visitation rights

[belladonna]

69. Wow, I totally forgot that you actually MET this guy!!

Yes, I have talked to a lawyer and, just this last week, came up with the money to retain him. He seems to think we have a good chance of getting visitation stopped based on what the guardian ad litem is saying and the fact that Maggie, after almost 9 weeks of visitation, screams even harder and longer at the sight of him than she did when they started.

[Schema Thing]

62. If the court would allow you to move

would he follow?



Other than that; pray he gets into another relationship so he'll ply his ego games elsewhere? meh, might as well pray for a bus.

[belladonna]

70. Well, he does have a pattern of doing so

I actually talked to one of his ex gfs today and, wow, was that one interesting conversation. Only difference is that, in his past relationships, there was no child involved. Still, one can hope.....

[mopinko]

63. can you move?

my ex moved to texas, because he knew that they are horrible about enforcing other states court orders.

[belladonna]

71. I have actually petitioned the court to allow me to move

That will also be heard on June 2nd, so wish me luck on that one too!!

[Tikki]

64. Gently now and stronger as she gets older...

point her in the direction of real down to earth people. Make sure she
has access to lots of different kinds of nice people. Remind her that
the narcissist is just one kind of person...not her whole world.

I walked away forever from the narcissist in my life 25 years ago when I was 35 years old.
Never regretted it. An enormous sigh of relief.


Good luck
Tikki

[belladonna]

72. Yes, I'm already trying to do that

She has a lot of close relationships already, especially with her half-sister, who's 19. They both adore each other and I hope that, as Maggie gets older, they'll remain very close.

Although I'm still not totally able to walk away from him, I still feel a real sense of relief just in the fact that I'm not WITH him anymore and that there is only so much control he can exercise over my life now. With any luck, the amount of control he still has will soon disappear.