Segregated bookstores?

[southerngirlwriter]

I just went to the bookstore to buy a copy of Antwone Fisher's memoir, Finding Fish. A friend read it and said that he thought of me the entire time and that I'd probably really love it, even through my tears. So I went to buy it. Went up and down the biography section ten times. Not there. So I went to the desk and asked for it. The woman looked it up and then marched me to.....

The "African American Nonfiction" section.


:wtf:


I've seen the sign for that section before, of course, but I always thought it was for non-fiction specifically about African-American issues, i.e. sociological studies about how racism affects the education of our children and stuff like that. Now I find out that black authors are placed there, even when their books clearly belong in other sections -- like Fisher's autobiography.

WHY?? Does anyone here work in a bookstore? Can you explain this to me?

I find it incredibly scary. Are African-American authors not good enough to have their memoirs in the biography section with the rest of the writers on this planet? How many people have NOT read Fisher's book because it wasn't there when they browsed the biographies?? When my memoir is published (I'm agent-shopping now) it'll be in the Biography section. Why? Why not a "White Nonfiction" section??

This is really repugnant to me. If I enjoy the book as much as my friend (who knows me about as well as I'll let anyone know me) thinks I will, then my next question will be in the form of a letter to the President of the bookstore franchise. Why isn't it enough that Fisher is a writer? Why must a customer who wants his book stop and think, "Well, he's black, so his biography won't be in the biography section. I must go to the separate-but-equal section for memoirs by black authors."

This is really fucked up.

[liberalhistorian]

1. I totally agree,

and I find that more and more bookstores are pulling that shit, even the mainstream ones like Borders and Barnes and Noble. I used to love the little independent bookstores around here, but the big chains have pretty much driven them away.

I don't know what else to do about it except to keep complaining loud and long and clear to the management of each bookstore that does it. Each bookstore has its own management that decides where to put what, the chain doesn't usually tell them.

[Sequoia]

2. That is strange

and I'd sure find out why. Wonder if they put other races in other sections. What city is this?

[Blue-Jay]

3. Additionally, Why is "Lying Liars" in the humor section?

Especially when Hannity, and the other pieces of human filth are located in "non-fiction"?

Burns my ass every time I go to Walden or B. Dalton. I even asked the clerk about it last time I was there. She said, "Um....isn't he a comedian or something?". I've never slapped a woman, nor even come close. But I damn well WANTED TO last week.

[southerngirlwriter]

4. Hannity should be in the fantasy section.

:grr:

[JohnKleeb]

you think good SGW

fiction would be good too.

[JohnKleeb]

5. edit double post with original response

Ive noticed that before too SGW. Its weird isn't it.

[lazarus]

60. FWIW

our local B&N has all of O'Reilly's stuff in the Media section, way in the back, on the bottom shelf.

[flamingyouth]

6. Weird

I have seen lots of places with African American Cultural Studies sections, but generally people's memoirs are all in the biography section.

Was this a chain or an independent store?

[southerngirlwriter]

7. It was a Books-a-Million

the same people own Waldenbooks.

[Diogenes2]

8. African-American expression

I see nothing wrong with giving African-American literature, both fiction & non-fiction, a special place of honor in a bookstore.

[southerngirlwriter]

9. place of honor?

Do you really think that's what it is?

Do you think that the 87% (roughly) of the country who are not African-American make special attempts to go to that section and find their books?

How many African-American authors would have made the bestseller lists if their books were shelved with everyone else's?? I guarantee you I'd have bought Fisher's book long before today IF I HAD SEEN IT.

I guess you thought that the separate water fountains were special water fountains of honor??? :eyes:

[Diogenes2]

10. Q & A

<Do you think that the 87% (roughly) of the country who are not African-American make special attempts to go to that section and find their books?>

Most bookstore patrons go to the bookstore, just as you did, looking for something they have heard about or read about or seen on tv.

<How many African-American authors would have made the bestseller lists if their books were shelved with everyone else's?? I guarantee you I'd have bought Fisher's book long before today IF I HAD SEEN IT.>

In case you haven't been noticing, a great many African-American authors HAVE been appearing with great frequency on bestseller lists for years. Also, if YOU DON'T SEE IT, ask an employee WHERE IT IS.

<I guess you thought that the separate water fountains were special water fountains of honor???>

What a childish remark. No one is segregating the customers or prohibiting anyone from shopping anywhere in the store. Get real.

[southerngirlwriter]

11. Why is it okay with you that African-American authors

are segregated within the store?

You said it's a "place of honor."

Would you feel the same about a section for "White Christian Heterosexual Nonfiction"? That it was a "place of honor" ?? And would you be okay with it?

And even if it was a "place of honor" (which it certainly is not -- it was in a corner of the store that was hard to get to, for one thing) -- why is it okay to honor books by black authors just because they're black? That implies that it's a really rare, really big thing for an African-American to have a book published. Is that what you mean to imply? I don't know what you're trying to say.

You like answering questions -- Why should Fisher's book be in a corner of the store, labeled according to the color of his skin? Why should it have not been on the front row, visible as soon as you walk in the door, the way that biographies for white authors and authors of other races were????

[Mr. Socko]

12. How old or new is the book?

[southerngirlwriter]

13. copyright 2001 -- the trade paperback edition is what I have

those usually come out, at the earliest, one year after the hardback.

As a test, I also looked for Booker T. Washington's magnificent book, Up From Slavery, which sells really well because it's always on the required reading for schools. It was not in the biography section, either. He's been segregated, too. How ironic.

[Diogenes2]

16. On the front row

Every author you happen to be looking for one evening isn't going to be there on the front row. Sorry you were inconvenienced by having to take a few steps to acquire what you wanted. Again, you are trivializing the heinous concept of "segregation" by using it to refer to books instead of people in the store. No one is denying you or anyone access to the store facilities.

[southerngirlwriter]

21. every biography the store shelves SHOULD be on the front row

because that's where the biographies are!!

Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

No, no one is denying anyone access to the facilities, but a fine book by an African-American author IS being denied shelf space in the biography section because the author happens to be African-American. HOW is that morally, ethically, and otherwise acceptable?

[Diogenes2]

28. Biography section

I don't know how Books-a-Billion or wherever is organized, but many bookstores do NOT have a "biography" section at all: memoirs about sports figures (of all races) may be in Sports, memoirs of Jewish experience in the WWII may be in a special "Holocaust" section. Memoirs of life in Africa may be in the "African history" section. By putting a black writer's memoir in an "African-American Studies" section, a store may merely be categorizing a title using the book's "non-fiction" designation in the context of African-American historical experience, which, if you know your history, is quite unique & distinct from that of other groups in the USA. How ever things may be in Books-a-billion, the fact remains that your concern appears to me to be wrong-headed, paranoid, & overblown in the context of every bookstore that distinctly categorizes books reflecting Black American experience. As another poster here says, "Bookstores are our friends."

[Bertha Venation]

36. Library of Congress: Fisher's book is a biography.

You wrote, "How ever things may be in Books-a-billion, the fact remains that your concern appears to me to be wrong-headed, paranoid, & overblown in the context of every bookstore that distinctly categorizes books reflecting Black American experience."

SGW has overblown nothing. Look at how the Library of Congress categorizes Finding Fish:

Subjects:
Fisher, Antwone Quenton.
African Americans--Ohio--Cleveland--Biography.
Foster children--Ohio--Cleveland--Biography.
African American screenwriters--Biography.
Cleveland (Ohio)--Biography
Cleveland (Ohio)--Social life and customs--20th century.
(emphasis added)

Your responses to her outrage over this have been condescending, and IMO you owe SGW an apology.

[Dookus]

40. Bertha-

Bookstores aren't libraries. Bookstores are tools to sell books.

There really is NOTHING wrong with displaying books the way SGW has reported.

And comparing this to the real evil of segregation is what's out of line.

[Diogenes2]

42. Library of Congress

Please note that African-American is the FIRST classification in the LOC record you cite, long before the word "Biography" that you print in boldface. My condescension, as you characterize it, is no match for her suggestion that I approved of segregated drinking fountains because I disagreed with her. Let her make her own arguments, & let me respond with my own, if you don't mind.

[philosophie_en_rose]

64. Not okay, but there is a white section of the bookstore.

Usually called "Classics"

[Dookus]

14. I don't find it fucked up

or even offensive.

Bookstores always separate by genre, because it makes it easier for people to find what they're looking for.

My local independent bookstore has a religion section, broken down by specific religions. Is that offensive to people? Nope. It has a children's section. Is that offensive to people? Nope. It has a gay/lesbian section. Is that offensive to people? Nope. It has history broken down by various regions/countries. Is that offensive to people? Nope.

If people are interested in gay/lesbian issues, they can browse that section and find things. It would be much harder if each book were put into the larger fiction/non-fiction/memoirs/humor sections. They're all there in one nice place for me to browse.

If somebody's interested in African-American issues, it's convenient to have them in one place.

You seem to be offended at the acknowledgement that there *IS* an African-American genre. But it shouldn't be any more offensive than the acknowledgement that there is a gay/lesbian genre.

Bookstores, especially independent ones, are our friends. They're not trying to hurt people. They're trying to help.

[Mr. Socko]

15. Man, I agree.

Putting books into specific genres is much easier to find than in larger sections, like fiction or non-fiction.

[southerngirlwriter]

18. How is it a specific genre?

If non-fiction by black authors is a specific genre, then all the rest of these have to be "specific" genres, too:

White Non-fiction
Hispanic Non-fiction
Heterosexual Non-fiction
Female Non-fiction
Male Non-fiction

and so on.

[Mr. Socko]

20. You prove a good point.

But a lot of people in our society only look at it as "black" and "white" instead of other races. That's probably why they do it. Who knows. :shrug:

[Dookus]

26. nonsense

a genre isn't defined by you. It's defined by the marketing folks. There isn't any "female non-fiction" genre because people don't LOOK for female non-fiction. However, there IS a women's issues genre.

If a woman writes a book about astronomy, it's not in the female non-fiction section (which doesn't exist). If a woman writes a book about feminism and culture, it IS in the women's issues section.

I really think you're trying to find some offense where absolutely none is intended.

[DuctapeFatwa]

57. I guess they think of "books written by black people" as a genre

unto itself. It appears to come from the notion that a black person writing a book is somehow remarkable. It's the kind of thinking that is so deeply ingrained that people don't even realize it.

[Dookus]

58. bullshit

no more than a book by a gay or lesbian author is remarkable.

It has nothing to do with bigotry. It has to do with helping people find books.

It's endlessly amusing how offended some people WANT to be.

[DuctapeFatwa]

59. I don't think it is a deliberate attempt to offend for its own sake

I don't think it's a conscious thing.

Should all books by Jewish authors be put in the Judaica section?

[Dookus]

61. of course not

and I bet not all books by African-American authors are in the African-American section.

But books ABOUT the experiences of African-Americans are put there.

Just like the gay/lesbian section has books ABOUT the gay/lesbian experience, but not all books by gay/lesbian authors are there.

Truman Capote is in Fiction. Quentin Crisp is in gay/lesbian. It's all about the topics they wrote about.

[DuctapeFatwa]

65. see post 22

[southerngirlwriter]

17. I repeat myself.

Why should Fisher's brilliant (if I can judge by three chapters) book be in a segregated section from books by whites, asians, etc., simply because of the color of his skin?

If his skin color makes his book a different "genre," then what's next? Will my memoir by part of the "genre" of "White Heterosexual Southern Non-fiction" ?? Or even, "White Nonfiction" ?? That idea is horrifying.

Fisher's book is about an intelligent and resilient young man who overcame a shitload of pain to make a great life for himself. Why shouldn't his book be in the front row, prominently displayed with the other biographies? Why should he be treated differently because of his skin color? I thought our party was against that?

The history and religion comparisons are not valid. If there was a section for "WW2" broken down by the skin color of the authors, then it would be the same thing. This is simply a memoir not shelved with other memoirs because of the author's skin color. That's wrong.

[Mr. Socko]

19. It just makes it easier to find, southerngirlwriter.

I buy books on astronomy and whatnot, and even though the books are non-fiction, I know I can look in the science section to find the books. It's the same principle. It just makes the book very easy to find.

[southerngirlwriter]

22. Right. You go to the science section to find astronomy books.

You don't go to the "White Science" section to find science books by white authors.

I think you're proving my point, Socko. It did NOT make it easier to find. I went to the biography section looking for a biography and had to get help to find it for no reason other than the store treating books differently according to the skin color of the author.

That is mind-boggling to me. This is 2004. I really thought we were beyond all that.

[Dookus]

27. SGW...

It sounds like that in order to appease you, there should be two sections in a bookstore: Fiction and non-fiction. That way, no distinctions are drawn based on gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. etc. Nobody to offend.

I would never visit such a store. I wouldn't be able to find shit, and I couldn't browse by genre, which I enjoy very much.

[southerngirlwriter]

29. How about....

literature and fiction, fantasy, romance, western, sci-fi, history, science, philosophy, religion, and audiobooks?

That's all there is in the store I went to, EXCEPT for a few books, chosen because of the author's skin color, to be pulled out of the regular sections and set aside in a separate section.

And you know, if you wrote a memoir, I would hope to see it in the memoir section with the rest of the memoirs by great writers.

When I think of you, I don't think of a GAY man. I just think of a man, an interesting one whose posts I like to read. I also think you have something worthwhile to say, and it would be a shame if your words were separated into a section that many people would not see or go to it, either on purpose or by accident, because of your sexual orientation.

I think of gay people as people. Stupid me again.

I'm getting off this fucking computer. Going to spend the weekend with face-to-face human beings.

Goodnight, y'all.

[Dookus]

30. don't be so dramatic

yes, if I wrote a memoir and it was popular and new it WOULD be in the regular fiction section. But if it wasn't a big best-seller and was a few years old, it'd probably be in the gay/lesbian section: PRESUMING my memoir was about my life as a gay man.

Antwone Fisher's book is about his life as a black man. If he'd written a book about military preparedness, it wouldn't be in the African-American section.

Do you find offense that there's a women's issues section? Or a gay/lesbian section? My local bookstore has a latino section, too. I fail to see anything wrong with it.

[Bertha Venation]

37. "Antwone Fisher's book is about his life as a black man."

Actually, Dookus, I think it's about his life. Period. It's a biography. SGW's memoir isn't going to be reviewed as "Jessie's life as a white woman."

[Diogenes2]

31. Taking her toys...

& going home I see. Sorry to see all that magnificent righteous indignation going to waste on such a trivial, wrong-headed perception created by ONE visit to Book-a-billion.

[Bertha Venation]

38. Dude.

If ever there were a time I wished DU weren't so well-regulated, it's now.

[Diogenes2]

43. Well-Regulated

Please don't hesitate to deconstruct the opinions I have expressed in the strongest terms you have available! Just don't call me a bunch of names, if that's what you have in mind. Girl Writer's assertions about racism in the bookstore simply don't meet the reality test. Sorry.

[arwalden]

52. Well stated, Diogenes2...

It's often much easier to huff off and slam the door than it is to admit that a mistake has been made and that perhaps she had jumped to the wrong conclusion.

-- Allen

[arwalden]

23. When I Managed A Waldenbooks...

We would cross-merchandise and display in two sections. We had many customers who ONLY shopped for titles in the African-American Studies / Black-Interest sections.

Many teenage girls would have NEVER wandered over into the primary fiction section and picked up Toni Morrison or Alice Walker.

It's not "fucked up". It's called marketing.

Know your clientèle and provide them with what they want and need. Wouldn't the bigger outrage have been if your bookstore didn't carry the title you wanted AT ALL?

-- Allen

[southerngirlwriter]

24. If it had been cross-merchandised, that would have been one thing.

It wasn't. It was only available to someone who either asked for help finding it, like I did, or who automatically thought of Fisher as, not a writer, not a man, but a BLACK writer, a BLACK man, and thus went to the section where the BLACK writers' books are.

Funny, I was just thinking about him as a human being and a writer. There I go again, thinking of people as people and not skin colors. Stupid me.

[Dookus]

25. because it's not a new book

I guarantee when the movie came out, that book was given some prominent display area. But now it's a few-years-old paperback, and they gotta pick one place to put it.

I'm gay. If I'm looking for a gay memoir, I look in the gay/lesbian section. It doesn't offend me at all.

[arwalden]

32. I Think You're Making Too Much Out Of This...

Do you honestly think that someone at Books-A-Million home office or the manage of the local bookstore actually segregates authors based on the color of their skin or based on the race of the characters out of BIGOTRY?

Or do you think that they are making informed decisions based on the demographics of their store's clientèle? After you've managed a bookstore at a specific location for a little while, a competent manager can spot trends.

It's not difficult to simply look at the shelves to see that EVERY copy of "Beloved" in the African-American section is sold out... meanwhile the other five copies of "Beloved" that are cross-merchandised just sit there. Hmmm. I wonder how long it would take the smart store manager to MOVE the remaining five copies over to the African-American section where they actually SELL!

You seem to have the mistaken impression that a bookstore is a library. Such a practice would seem a bit silly and impractical in a library. But when it comes right down to it, A BOOKSTORE IS NOT A LIBRARY. Right?

While the two perform similar functions... they both have books... the bookstore's main purpose is to make a profit by selling AS MANY BOOKS AS POSSIBLE.

Merchandising, arranging, and displaying the products in such a way as to maximize sales is the name of the game. You're allowing yourself to get worked up over an imagined insult and imagined bigotry. That's simply not the case.

-- Allen

Edit: typo/clarity

[Droopy]

33. Some libraries do it, too.

My university library has a section devoted to African-American culture. I just had to go to it for some research on a paper I wrote about Langston Hughes. I don't see anything wrong with it. I think they are trying to highlight and honor the black experience by creating a section for that genre. The library is named after the famous black poet Paul Lawrence Dunbar.

[Diogenes2]

34. Thanks Allen...

for explaining the retail reality of the book trade with such clarity. But our Southern Girl has flown the coop, unable to abide any defectors from her righteous crusade against Straw Dog Racist Bookstore.

[Insider]

35. i think i understand your point, sgw

if he were white, there would be no special section. the book would be about a man (NOT a black man) and his life (NOT black life). then his book would more than likely be wherever books about life are.

for me, i would like a better chance to see a variety of books up front in the store, regardless of the race of the writer. antwone fisher frankly is not really a story about a black man. it is just about a man, and should be wherever bios are. IMHO

[Diogenes2]

39. If the author were white...

you say, there wouldn't be a special section. Not completely accurate. Memoirs about Eastern European experience, for example, may be shelved in Eastern European history-- although, due to the demographics of Eastern Europe, the books will almost certainly be by "white" authors. Black American experience IS unique in the American context. Ask anyone of any color who is informed about American history. To pretend that THE COLOR PURPLE, for instance, is JUST about "people" & not Black American people is just that-- pretending. Paradoxically, the uniqueness of Black Experience in America does NOT prevent us from learning very human lessons from it, that cross all racial barriers.

[Dookus]

41. I guarantee

when the movie came out, that book was displayed elsewhere than just the African-American section.

But it's now an old book, and an old movie. It has to be put somewhere.

I also guarantee that when Toni Morrison writes a new book, it isn't stocked ONLY in the African-American section. It's prominently displayed up front.

This is just a bunch of manufactured outrage over a false comparison to real segregation.

[Insider]

45. no outrage here

i didn't use that word. i just made a comment and expressed my opinion.

where does jeff gordon's bio go? where does vanna white's go? where does merv griffin's go? these are just off the top my head.

as a black woman in america, my perception is that OUR experience IS as american as sweet potato pie.

it seems the justifiable categories are AMERICAN and then AFRICAN AMERICAN, ASIAN AMERICAN, etc.

"bullies on parade" proceed.

[Dookus]

46. I'm not sure we disagree...

I'm gay, and I LIKE having a gay/lesbian section in my bookstore. I see nothing wrong with it.

How's this for an outrage? My local Safeway has a *gasp* MEXICAN foodstuffs aisle! Shouldn't there just be one big aisle labeled "food" and another "non-food"?

Yes, of course your experience is American. As is mine. Nothing in the retail displays of bookstores indicates otherwise.

[arwalden]

48. OMG... You Think YOUR Grocery Store Is Bigoted...??

My grocery story has a Mexican section.... an ASIAN section... and a JEWISH section.

Honestly... this MUST stop! I'm outraged! I was in the vegetable isle looking for cans of baby corn... you'd think it would be right there in with the REGULAR canned corn. But Noooo! When I asked if they carried baby corn, the sales clerk took me over to a SEGREGATED Asian section.

-- Allen

[Dookus]

53. We should start a letter-writing campaign

this is an outrage.

Food is food, dammit! I demand one big-ass aisle with all the food in it. This kind of discrimation sickens me. It's as bad as interning Japanese citizens.

[arwalden]

55. Or... ALPHABETICAL

Acorn Squash, Apples, Asparagus... etc etc.

I could always find OLIVES right next to ORANGES! And no matter if you wanted grapes, grape juice, or grape jelly or grape jam... they would all be displayed side-by-side.

That would be the best.

-- Allen

[Insider]

66. deconstruct an argument

i'm sure i don't have the skills required to properly deconstruct an argument. but i think there is a difference between an opinion and an argument. apparently expressing an unpopular opinion here draws insults, condescension, even ridicule. but that's the way the big tent of DU works, i guess.

1. is it hyperbole when you take one opinion and apply it to extremes?

2. is the grocery store comparison realistic? it seems like the bookstore issue is about categorizing the book (product) versus categorizing the author (producer). if the grocery store stocked bread baked by a black baker in the "black bread" section, that would indeed be foolish.

martin luther king, fredrick douglas, malcolm x, sojourner truth maybe should go in a section about the african american experience in america. but antwone fisher's challenges didn't seem much different from eminem's. and if eminem's bio is in music section only, then maybe fisher's should be in military/navy section.

enough rambling.

simply, my opinion is that many books are classified by some arbitrary characteristic of the author instead of the content of the book. and if it is done because of some misguided marketing strategy, that doesn't make it any better.

and another opinion: for the record, ridiculing people's opinion for sport is not very clever or cute.

[Diogenes2]

47. Manufactured outrage over a false comparison...

Thanks-A-Billion Dookus! I couldn't have expressed the heart of the matter so well & so succinctly.

[blondeatlast]

44. Why BISAC is such a mess--

BISAC is the cataloging system most retailers use. It's a semi-simple way for retailers to figure out which subject areas are hot, where best to place books, etc. It also makes it MUCH easier for buyers to know which categories to buy for (I mean buyers for the retail trade).

The problem with it is that there is no industry standardization. It's entirely up to the book's publisher to decide what subject the book falls under, and it almost never changes. Pubkishers are NOTORIOUSLY lazy when it comes to submitting info to distributors.

The latest Harry Potter book was submitted to Baker and Taylor with an egregious misspelling that was only discovered when B&T was flummoxed as to why they were receiving so few orders for it. Simple--it couldn't be found using a simple title search! Title mispellings and grammatical errors are unbelievably common--a real nightmare for buyers and library selectors.

[Richardo]

49. At B&N, Antwone Fisher is in the general Biography section

As is the Autobiography of Malcolm X; Colin Powell; Condi Rice and other biographies.

There is an African American Studies section...for Frederick Douglass, MLK Jr, cultural studies, etc.

The rest of the store is fully integrated...all African American fiction is in the General Fiction section.

Interestingly, I've had more than a few African American customers ASK for the Black authors section, and they seem almost disappointed when I tell them that E. Lynn Harris, Alice Walker, Walter Mosely, Toni Morrison, Jerome Dickey et al are all comingled in Fiction. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

51. Our library has Genre Fiction and it really frosts me.

The idea is to let fans of the genres browse, but when a patron wants a specific author in a genre, they can hardly ever find it for themselves.

:shrug:

[Diogenes2]

56. Personally, I don't think Condi & Colon

belong in the same section with Malcolm X at all... no way! :)

[MrScorpio]

50. This is America, where everything is defined by race

Black people like myself have known this from day one.

[Dookus]

54. But it's not just race...

as I said, MY local independent bookstore as a gay/lesbian section, a women's issues section, a Latino section, among others.

The presumption by the OP is that these sections, or at least the African-American section, are created out of some innate bigotry against AA authors.

I think that is false.

I think the sections are used to help customers find books better.

[lazarus]

62. I don't think it's that, Dookus

The OP even stated that a Black Studies or Black Literature was perfectly understandable, but to have a section specifically for black authors, simply because they're black, is what's so upsetting to her.

[Jim__]

63. What Bookstore?

I go to Barnes and Noble a lot and I find some books in multiple sections. Someone said "Lying Liars" is in the humor section - it may be there at Barnes and Noble ; but it's also in the Current Events section.

I wouldn't find it objectionable if Fisher's book were in the African American nonfiction section but also in other sections, for instance nonfiction. I agree that if they only stock it in the African-American section, that's offensive.