OK DUers, you've all been to high school. Give me your opinion.....

[LibDemAlways]

Daughter is a junior. Taking chemistry, honors history, something called "finite" math, computer graphics, advanced dance....and English. She's a straight A student and a hard worker, but has been butting heads with her English teacher lately. Here's the deal. A couple of times a month kids have to write an in- class essay based on literature they have been reading. No problem. Wish they had to write more in-class essays. However, here's how it's done. Kids are given 5 topics and two nights to prepare. They must prepare to write a 3-5 page essay in class (90 min. class) for each topic. Have to find specific examples from the various texts and be fully prepared to write 5 essays. The catch is that while they have to prepare for all 5 topics, teacher actually draws one topic out of a hat and they write on only that one topic. Then teacher gets very fussy and nit-picky on the grading. It's very time-consuming and ultimately demoralizing for a kid who is putting many hours into the preparation, most of which is wasted effort, to then get downgraded because "you didn't put in a transition phrase between these two paragraphs" even though "your examples are fine." Yesterday she came home thoroughly pissed off because, even though her work was stuffed with good ideas and specific examples, her concluding paragraph apparently was one sentence too short for the teacher's taste and she was downgraded to a "B-."

So it boils down to this. Is it reasonable or unreasonable for a teacher to give high school juniors two nights to fully prepare to write 5 3-5 page essays, and then pick only one randomly out of a hat and expect perfection in 90 minutes? I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say. And, by the way, this is not an honors or advanced placement course - just regular college prep English.

[skygazer]

1. Well, you don't really ever achieve perfection in an in-class essay

The idea of the exercise is learning how to write well spontaneously and there's nothing wrong with a B-. That said, it sounds more like a college level assignment than a junior in HS one. And generally when I've had in-class essays in which we had several possible topics, we were able to choose which topic we wrote about. So for the teacher to pick it seems like a waste of the students' time to me.

But bottom line, students are always going to get teachers who are picky or don't match their skills or methods, or who they don't get along with or have some other problem with. Kind of like life and work and all that. Learning to deal with that is another part of getting through school.

[LibDemAlways]

2. I'm a teacher and fully understand that not every teacher is every student's

cup of tea. However, that B- might as well have been an F as far as my daughter was concerned. The effort in this case definitely didn't match the grade. Thanks for weighing in. I appreciate it.

[burrfoot]

3. I'm actually taking

ENG 101 (freshman english) at a local college right now (kind of a long story, but I am); and we had to do an in-class essay for our midterm.

Our prof. made a point of saying that, as she saw it, the point of in-class writing is to determine if the student "gets the gist" of writing. She looks for key words, examples, grammar, and of course whether the question was answered; but specifically does not care about spelling or the finer points of essay/paragraph structure.

Spelling, punctuation, 8 (or however many) sentence paragraphs- none of those are what's "important" about writing. They are the things that anyone can learn everyone can do, with time- but WTF is the point of insisting on those in a timed writing assignment?

All that being said, what teacher says goes. I feel bad for your daughter, but can really only suggest that you encourage her to do her best with these stupid assignments and worry as little as possible about the grades she gets.

Just my .02

[LibDemAlways]

4. Thanks for the input. Unfortunately for a kid facing college

admission next year grades are everything. Every other English teacher she's had has been very supportive, encouraging, and reasonable. This one is a pain in the ass, but you're right. All I can do is encourage her to do her best and realize that this, too, shall pass.

Did your college professor give you the essay prompt in advance? Was there more than one? Did you get to choose which one you'd write about? Just curious.

[burrfoot]

58. We were

given the topic in advance; and there was only one. Again, in her opinion the point of in-class writing is to encourage the students to think critically about the question and answer it fully and correctly; not to bust out the thesaurus and impress with proper use of the semicolon.

I think that your daughter's teacher is not doing a particularly effective job of teaching writing; but as we've both noted there's little she can do but slug it out and hope for the best.

Good luck!

[Rabrrrrrr]

5. Technically, they're only preparing to write one 3-5 page essay, on one of 5 topics.

Without more data it is difficult to know if this unreasonable.

If the potential five topics are completely unrelated, then it's too much. If all 5 topics pertain to the same book, then it's not too bad. All the student has to know is that book.

Sounds like this is probably unreasonable, but I'll wait to hear from you.


As to grading down for lack of a transitional phrase and whatnot: I have to applaud the teacher for actually holding them to standards and teaching them how to write, instead of sloppiness go by the roadside. She'll be much better prepared for college because of this.

[LibDemAlways]

12. It's all on one book, but widely divergent topics. Examples for a

recent essay on The Crucible. Topic#1 compare events in play with the McCarthy era. Topic #2 discuss contributions of minor characters . Topic #3 discuss themes as they relate to another Arthur Miller essay introduced in class Topic# 4 compare and contrast five major characters in depth Topic #5 cite instances of specific literary devices......

All topics required extensive research and use of specific examples and quotes from the text. So they really are being asked to prepare five separate essays on five separate topics.

It just strikes me as too much. Thanks for your input.

[tigereye]

72. well, they are all related to the Crucible, right?

but I see your point. It's good to be challenged, but expectations from teachers can vary so much.

Maybe a talk with the teacher is in order, sometimes teachers can seem like a PITA from the kid's perspective, but when the kid, or parent has some discussion with them about expectations, etc. often that can help the student see the teacher from a more positive angle. I have to say that most teachers really want to help kids do well.


It's interesting, my son had an audition today for a writing program at a performing arts high school, and it's hard to tell what the expectations for quality were - I think that expectations for kids now are almost too high (or too low at the other end) - that kids are expected to almost be doing college- quality work when they are only 12, 13, 14. :shrug: My son is working on a research paper in 8th grade with note cards, footnotes, the whole 9 yards, which is something I didn't even do until I was a junior or senior in high school back when.


good luck to your daughter, btw.

[LibDemAlways]

75. Thanks, Tiger Eye. Yes, they

are all loosely related to the same work, but very different in focus. The teacher expects specifics example from the text to back up opinions, and so preparing for 5 essays is, in effect, preparing for five short research papers. She also expects students to cite their sources - like preparing the notecards your son is working on. Imagine your son being assigned five research papers and not knowing which one the teacher is going to collect. Nonetheless, he'd have to do all five.

That's the whole point of my original post. Is it fair and a good use of the student's time to require that they do a considerable amount of work and research beyond what the class assignment will entail that will never be collected, read, or graded. I understand that all learning is valuable, but so is a student's time.

Thanks for your comments and for your good wishes.

LDA

[tigereye]

77. well, yes, it probably can be, since she will have that broad scope of know-

ledge about a complex topic- good for the brain and thinking and analyzing process in the long run. Useful yes. Fair? Perhaps not.


Today my son had to write about a poem at his audition - there was no way to know what the topic/subject would be, so I had to hope that his past experience would carry him. Sometimes that's all you can do. Work hard, challenge yourself, question the process if you need to, and hope for the best.

:hug:

[RoadRage]

6. She's preparing her for college...

I'm sure this looks unfair now, but this is an advanced class, and this teacher is teaching her a couple of things:

1. In real life you sometimes put in a lot of hard work and don't end up getting credited for it.
2. You will sometimes have unrealistic expectations that are impossible to live up to, you have to learn to accept this
3. At the end of the day - your daughter is going to know more about writing essays and English then most on this board.. that will help her a lot in college.

I know when I was IN the classes with the tough, mean, teacher who always expected perfection that I hated him/her. But, those were always the subjects I studied the hardest for.. and knew the most about.

If she's singling your specific child out, that is a different story.. but if the entire class things that this teacher is "mean and tough" - then leave it alone.. she'll appreciate it after the class is over. ;)

[LibDemAlways]

10. It's not an advanced class. It's basic English III. The school also

offers Honors English III and AP English III. I think perhaps this sort of assignment belongs in one of those. I think the one with the unrealistic expectations is the teacher. Two nights to prepare to write 5 essays and then the teacher chooses one topic at random and disses kids for not taking the time to think up a single transition sentence while writing against the clock?

The whole thing is a huge amount of wasted effort and detracts from writing one really good essay IMO. That said, I genuinely appreciate your weighing in and respect your point of view.

[AngryAmish]

28. The challange is good for her

Sounds like a good kid and a tough teacher. College will be easy after this.

[LibDemAlways]

29. May be "good for her" but is making her despise the class, and

I'm starting to have trouble even getting her to go to school. It's high school. It ought to be challenging, but it also ought to be a training ground for college, not college itself.

I'm 57. My 40th high school reunion is coming up next year. My class boasts one former US Senator, as well the guy who coined the term "windows" at Microsoft, and a bigwig recording industry executive plus numerous doctors, lawyers, etc.....And you know what, none of these super successful over-achievers was ever required to do college-level work in high school. Back then we took our classes, did a couple hours of homework a night, participated in sports and a wide variety of extra-curriculars. We had a balanced life.

Nowadays its all about stressing kids out and killing them academically before they even get to college. My daughter participates in nothing. No time. Homework. Homework. Homework. It's ridiculous, and it isn't particularly creating a more intelligent populace. It's creating a bunch of test takers who know how to fill in boxes. Forgive the rant, but the more I think about it, the angrier I become.

[tigereye]

74. yeah, there does seem to be a lot of pressure and it's hard to know if that

is good in the long run. I sometimes wonder who is all for - learning should be fun and kids need to be excited by it, as well as challenged in a healthy way.

[supernova]

22. Exactly,

I was an English major and this is exactly how our midterms and finals went.

We were told that certain topics would be covered on the exam and it would be up to us to do the reading to the extent that we could think of examples off the tops of our heads.

If there's a beef here, it might be that the teacher is doing this too often for high school? Maybe? I dunno. All I know is that plenty of colleges are complaining about incoming freshmen and their lack of writing skills.

[LibDemAlways]

26. They aren't required to come up with examples "off the tops of their heads." They have to

research all five topics and come to class prepared with specific quotes from the book for all five - basically do all the research and prepare five rough drafts at home in two nights. Last week daughter spent 6 hours each night trying to prepare for this - 12 hours of effort. Then, the teacher chooses just one topic at random to be written in class.

My issue with all this isn't that she's being taught to write. That's what I expect. It's that I think the teacher is going about it in a really ass-backwards way and it represents a significant amount of wasted time and wasted effort. Wouldn't it make more sense for the teacher to have the students choose one or two topics and actually narrow their focus and concentrate on doing a good job rather than stressing them out with a lot of extraneous bs?

[MorningGlow]

7. Sounds a bit harsh to me

I'm a former English teacher, and I think that teacher's grading standards are a bit harsh--actually, more than a bit harsh. Yes, the students should be required to write an essay within the time constraints, but expecting perfection in a first draft, which is what these essays essentially are, is unreasonable. I also think it's a bit much to expect the students to prepare to write five essays. Are they allowed to bring notes? That would help a bit, but it's still a lot of prep work.

I'm also concerned that the teacher requires this "a couple of times a month"--sounds more suited for a one-off exam, like a midterm, than a regular exercise.

Bottom line: If this is causing your daughter undue stress every time the assignment comes up, then it's too much. I'm not saying students should be coddled and pampered, but the assignment and the weight of the grade (another issue to take into consideration) really should justify the prep work and the worry. If it's out of proportion, you might want to talk to the teacher--plus see if other parents feel the same way as you. No need to gang up on the teacher, but it's always nice to be able to say that other parents are also concerned.

On the bright side, after this class, your daughter is going to find college English to be a breeze. Seriously.

[LibDemAlways]

17. Thanks for your thoughts. I want my daughter to be well prepared for

college, and learning to write well is certainly an important skill. But I just don't see the point of a tremendous amount of wasted effort. Why not allow the kids to choose one of five topics and focus on writing one good, solid essay instead of being scattershot all over the place? Just makes no sense to me at all.

[wickerwoman]

35. With all due respect,

how is learning about five topics "wasted effort" just because the teacher only tests on one of them? Is the only valuable learning the stuff that the teacher tests? It sounds like you're buying into the whole "teaching to the test" methodology which devalues learning for its own sake. Why not let the students choose one of five topics? Because then they will only study one of five topics (I guarantee it). And then when one of the other four topics comes up on the AP exam or in their college classes, they'll be screwed.

Teachers have a huge amount of material that they need to convey and only a limited amount of time to convey it (and grade papers and give feedback). So I don't see anything wrong with the "here's the scope of material you need to be responsible for... I'm going to test you on 20% of it.) That's not that different from any examination and it's excellent preparation for most tests that your child will encounter in college and in life. The bar exam doesn't cover 100% of the material you learn in law school, but you need to study all of it to pass the test.

Where you might have a case is in how substantial the teacher's comments are on the papers, how much your student is penalized for relatively minor problems and how much time the students are given to complete the task. Without seeing the comments or the specific assignment it's hard to judge. But I wouldn't take the approach that your child's time is being wasted because the teacher has high expectations or that it's wrong somehow not to test on everything that the student is assigned. I don't think you're going to get very far with either the teacher or the administration if you take that approach.

[LibDemAlways]

45. The material is all covered in class and there are daily quizzes on all of it.

She needs to know, and is repeatedly tested on, everything. However, the essay assignment asks her to prepare for four essays that will never be written, never be read, never be graded. That might be ok as a reinforcement exercise if she didn't have several other challenging classes to worry about, but as it is, it's an exercise in futility and takes time away from preparing for work and studying for tests in other classes.

[wickerwoman]

52. Great, so how much extra studying does she need to do?

Pretty much every test asks you to prepare 100% and demonstrate 5-20%. In British universities you spend the whole semester studying for a three hour essay exam in each subject and your grade on that one exam is your grade for the entire term. So for each class, you end up with about 150 hours of class and revision time for a three hour exam (or preparing for forty-nine essays that will never be written, never be read, never be graded, etc. without the benefit of seeing the questions ahead of time.) Welcome to college. It only gets worse.

If she's already preparing in class and for daily quizzes, she should be familiar enough with the material that she doesn't have to spend hours preparing to write an essay about it. Assuming I had already read, discussed in class and been quizzed on "Macbeth", for example, it should only take 20-30 minutes to do an outline for an essay and find a few quotes. Times five topics is less than 2.5 hours work over two days. That's not unreasonable a few times a month for a high school junior.

And your daughter's other challenging classes are not that teacher's concern. Your daughter chose to sign up for them and they are very far from the last challenge she it going to face. Why not teach her to accept responsibility and be positive about the challenge instead of undermining her teacher and learning in general by agreeing that doing a second's more work than is absolutely necessary to pass the test is "pointless" or "futile"?

The suggestion down thread that you approach the teacher and discuss how your daughter is preparing and how she could do it more efficiently is excellent and constructive and I would like to second or third it here.

[LibDemAlways]

59. I'm not undermining anybody. The teacher in this case expects that the

students will prepare to write 5 3-5 page well-documented research papers using extensive quotations from the text. Use of the text is not permitted while writing the paper, so the preparations have to be extensive. 20-30 minutes wouldn't cut it. When I mentioned to the teacher in an e-mail last night that my daughter had spent 12 hours over two nights in preparation for this thing, her response was "Sounds about right." My daughter is a good student and could certainly handle preparing for one or two of these types of essays over two nights. Watching her struggle to do five and then coming up short at grading time because she never knows what grading rubric the teacher is going to follow after the fact is very frustrating.

[wickerwoman]

63. Fair enough.

I think you definitely should speak to the teacher and expecting 6 hours a night several times a month is unreasonable for one class. But what I would avoid doing is referring to the work as "futile" or "wasted effort". I don't think it's unreasonable to ask students to prepare for 5 papers and write one and I don't think you're going to make a lot of headway there by arguing that the extra preparation is "wasted". It's not like you're wasting 95% of your time in med school because the licensing exam only tests you on 5% of the material.

Where I think you have a good point is a.) students should be able to use the text in class or at least use notes with the quotations written out. Most written exams don't require memorization of lengthy quotes b.) the teacher should be able to produce a written grading rubric for these exams which your daughter could use as a guide c.) students may need the assignment handed out earlier so that they have more time to prepare and coordinate better with the demands of other classes. If the teacher won't budge on any of those points, then it would probably be worth pursuing it to a higher level.

[LibDemAlways]

64. All of your points are well taken. Thank you!

[tigereye]

78. +1

[tigereye]

76. yeah, but she will know the Crucible backwards and forwards, right?

:rofl:


I'm not sure kids need daily quizzes, either - is she afraid that they won't retain the material? Sometimes I think the endless testing really doesn't benefit as much as people think it does- it sometimes can have a factory- feel to it. There are so many other creative ways to see if people "get" the material. Sigh. Don't get me started. My son goes to a school now that is much more focused on process and experiential learning than testing...

[Chan790]

8. It would depend upon the purpose of the course.

For a general English course? No.

For a literature-focused course? No.

For a writing or composition-focused course? I'd say that's reasonable if the only thing you're judging is whether the composition shows any learning or aptitude of writing-skills. (Note: most HS students do not take a composition-focused English course at the HS level. I think it should be mandatory for graduation.)

I'm nit-picky though...I tutor writers and think that more students should be refused admission to college for inability to write; not write well, write-at-all. It's not a college professor's job to teach a student to write, if you don't know how to write a simple argumentative essay from prompt by the time you begin HS, you're behind what is expected of you. If you can't do it by the time you reach college, you don't belong there. I find myself having to teach grammar and sentence structure to 19 year olds embarrassingly often just so I can begin to teach them to make a cohesive argument and draw inferences from readings to support that argument.

To answer your question more directly, I think this teacher is outside of the norm...but I wish more HS English teachers were a little more like her. It sucks for your daughter now, but when she gets to any decent college and the median grade in her freshman year "rhetoric and composition" or "literature and composition" course is a D (and nationally it is about D on average year-to-year...albeit a wide-variance D: lots of A's and B's, very few C's and D's, as many F's as A's and B's.) she'll almost certainly be head of her class because she has the experience and skills writing an argumentative essay from a prompt. I do think that a 1 2/3 letter-grade decrease for not using transition phrases or being below-length is steep though, especially when we're tutoring students that they're of a decreasing importance...they're usually just wasted words and space-fillers to stretch an essay to length. A shorter, more-concise and to-the-point essay with the same content is always better.

Also...It just occurred to me that she's a junior. This is a similar (but not the same) format to the composition portion of the old SAT-II composition test (and I'd presume the new essay section of the SAT). Read a passage in light of a given prompt that you are given at the time of the test, write an essay within the allotted time-frame. So...this is practice for that. I never took those (and that's not really my area) so I don't know exactly what they're looking for in the essays but it is very well possible your daughter's teacher is teaching to the standard of the admissions test and using their same criterion to assess those essays. If the teacher is looking at it as B- is equal to 77th percentile (which I would not do because it's going to seriously FUBAR students' GPAs), then that's better than most of her peers.

Edit: I also agree with a lot of what MorningGlow is saying above...I was writing this was she was posting and did not see it until after I hit "post". The frequency does concern me a bit and this is a heavier workload assignment. It really does depend on what the 5 essay topics are.

Edit 2: I did not see the length being discussed as I did not read closely. 5 pages? That's rather extreme. I might ask for 500 words, 1000 at most as a guideline but I'd never hold anybody to it as long as the essay met the requirements of the assignment.

[LibDemAlways]

19. It's a literature-based English course, not specifically a writing course -though

I am well aware the two go hand in hand.

I agree with your characterization of transition words as (sometimes) "space fillers." Her school is intent on having students write inside a tight box. They are actually given little charts to arrange their thoughts in. Last night I read a Matt Taibbi article in Rolling Stone. I love his style. Couldn't find a single transition sentence between paragraphs. Tight, concise writing with a message. I'd rather the school focus on the content. It seems they care more about the form. A pity.

[tigereye]

79. ha, it might not help em in the wonderful world of gonzo journalism!

:D but probably would in other writing professions!

[graywarrior]

9. Hell, they do even do that in my college writing class.

But we get no prep time for topics, just practice in class for in-class essays. Plus, we get two hours to type at least 2 pages including an intro, three paragraphs defending an argument and a conclusion. That's hard enough. Coming up with 5 pages is a killer. I'm assuming it's double spaced, right?

[LibDemAlways]

14. Handwritten single spaced.

[graywarrior]

18. OMG, that's almost impossible!!!!!

[LibDemAlways]

20. 90 minutes to do it in. 5 essays to prepare for - one to write. The

expectations of your prof sound much more reasonable.

[graywarrior]

21. Could be that colleges are more interested in keeping students so they cut them some slack

[tigereye]

80. sounds like college English mid-terms or finals...

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

11. Hey, that sounds like Italian public school

No joke. Except we had to write impromptu essays on such esotheric topics as Sartre, Kant, Mozart, Primo Levi or the Silk Route and Marco Polo. And this was not at the high school level; it starts as early as the latter years of elementary school. Topics are announced the same day.

And that's nothing. The state exams at the end of junior high are 4 days long - the first day is Italian, where one must write an essay on a chosen topic which is revealed that day in the vein of the ones above; the second is mathematics with a whole section of word problems; the third is the foreign language exam where a student writes in the foreign language. The fourth day is the oral examination, in front of all your teachers, where you choose a topic and you discuss literature, history, the sciences, geography, music, art and architecture related to your chosen topic. You also have to speak in the foreign language. My chosen topic was the industrial revolution. My language was French. I still remember that oral examination quite clearly. It was a frightening but exhilarating experience and it toughened me up for college and beyond.

I think your kid's teacher is instilling a certain dose of real-world practice. It will make your daugher better prepared for college and the workplace.

[LibDemAlways]

15. I feel like she's already attending college. I attended Cal State close to

40 years ago as an English major, and my courses were never as rigorous as this.

I'm just glad I never attended elementary school in Italy. LOL

Thanks for weighing in. Interesting

[tigereye]

81. wow- orals in middle school!

Holy cow. Even Catholic school with it's emphasis on recitation and oral presentation wasn't like that. Most kids in the US would likely have a rough time with that level of assessment, perhaps even now!

[begin_within]

13. Make it look like an accident.

[harun]

120. Watching a season or two of CSI on DVD will help.

[HopeHoops]

16. Sounds like a trap. I suggest shaving cream.

For the teacher's car, of course.

[yawnmaster]

23. out of curiosity... is this AP English? eom

[yawnmaster]

24. I read upthread that its not AP. Sounds like she is teaching to the AP test though. eom

[LibDemAlways]

30. So basically, my kid signed up for ordinary college prep English because she

was already taking Honors History, Chem, and an advanced math class, and now she's basically in AP English, only not getting AP credit. Wonderful.

[yawnmaster]

49. I'd complain about that too...

But she should take the AP test if she is essentially prepping for it, and it sounds like she is.
If she passes the test, she will get AP credit in college, she just won't have the honors credit for taking the course.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

25. She is just being prepared for the real world

Where some Asshole boss expects you to provide the second coming of Christ and gets all pissy when you "fail to meet expectations".

Happens all the time, everywhere, especially in this economy.

Just explain to her that this is what real life looks like and no, it ain't fair.

[LibDemAlways]

27. Have had lots of bosses, some major assholes. None ever gave me

five assignments to complete in two days with no intention of even looking at 4 of them. I'm sure it happens, though. Thanks for the reality check!

[demmiblue]

Whoops... dupe!

[demmiblue]

31. Unreasonable...

two days to prepare for five 3-5 page essays (single spaced) on diverse questions is pretty harsh in and of itself.

That being said, to expect that the answer is final copy/publication ready is also unreasonable. The teacher should be assessing whether or not the student made a certain level of connection and interpretation of the text. Sure, I understand that the teacher should mark down for grammatical mistakes, but that should limited in this case.

[Odin2005]

32. Christ, that is COMPLETELY unreasonable!

I think you need to confront this teacher.

[LibDemAlways]

33. I have an appointment to speak with her Tuesday. I have to tread lightly,

however, because I'm a substitute teacher in the district, and don't want to piss her off too much. I need the money those sub jobs bring in! Not really looking for affirmation here as much as getting a general consensus. I think it's harsh and unreasonable, but many here don't.

As I said upthread, I went to high school 40 years ago. No teacher back then would ever have expected this much. And many of the kids I went to school with turned out just fine. I simply don't see the point of tormenting kids with this much work at this level. Why not give kids five choices and let them choose? I'm just stymied as to why she's putting the kids through this.

[Midlodemocrat]

36. LOL.

[LeftyMom]

34. That's perfectly reasonable, and since your daughter has already done more than one of these

she knows the expectations and should have no trouble meeting them. If she was graded unfairly or if the criteria for grading are unclear then she should discuss that with her teacher and then move up the food chain as needed with that concern, you shouldn't step in unless absolutely necessary because she's almost college age and needs to learn to advocate for herself.

[LibDemAlways]

37. OK. How is having to spend many hours over 2 nights preparing rough drafts of

five 3-5 page handwritten essays, four of which will never be written, read, or handed in, "perfectly reasonable"? Keep in mind that this is not honors or AP. It is basic English III. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to ask the students to choose one or two of the five and focus in on those?

And I realize how old my daughter is and that she is preparing to enter the big, bad world. I also know that her teacher is somewhat intimidating and sarcastic in the way she deals with her students. She adopts a very different tone with adults. That's why, in this instance, I feel the need to be my daughter's advocate.

I do appreciate your response, and as I said to a previous poster, am looking at all of the input in order to see if there's any sort of consensus.

[LeftyMom]

41. There's your problem: She's doing it wrong.

It's an in-class essay, not a write it over and over until it's half-memorized and then puke it up on cue in class essay. Getting the topics in advance is a favor, but she should be able to do this on no notice at all if she knows the material- and she's certainly going to need to be able to do that for college in a year and half. All she really needs to do in advance is have a mental idea of her structure and supporting evidence in her head, and to be able to write around that in class, because that's what she'll be doing in college.

She shouldn't be writing essays at home at all to prepare for this (unless she has problems with writing essays generally and just needs practice sticking with the expected structure or writing thesis sentences or something) she just needs to be going over her source material, and writing up outlines if they help her get ready to write- and at this point she should be so used to doing that that she does it automatically in her head- if not the teachers you need to talk to are the ones who didn't have her doing enough essays before now, not the current one helping her and her classmates to catch up.

This teacher is doing her an enormous favor by teaching her to write well on short notice within a predictable format which she will be expected to adhere to slavishly, because that will be the bulk of her undergraduate writing, and she needs to be proficient at it now (before now really, I'm assuming she sent off college application essays weeks ago.) Students who show up to college thinking they can write well but unable to churn out essays for an academic audience on cue struggle.

edit: The school system I attended did these sort of in-class essay writing drills beginning in the seventh grade. I seem to recall we did them every week or so in seventh and eighth grade English. They prepared me extremely well for high school and college, and though I hated them at the time I'm enormously glad I did them because I know that I have a much easier time sticking to structure and writing from a prompt than many of my peers. My only objection to your daughter's assignment as you describe it is that she wasn't doing them regularly years before.

second edit: Ask to see the rubric and/or model essay. If the instructions weren't clear on the length of the conclusion expected, and your daughters' isn't obviously too short or otherwise deficient, she might be able to argue her way out of being marked down for that.

[noamnety]

44. I was going to write the same thing

(but my dinner was ready so I had to run off).

Yes - she's doing it wrong if she's writing drafts for each essay, and that is the most important thing she's going to learn from this. I wish I'd learned that before going to college.

I was a straight A with low effort high school student. My first term in college I got a D in English. I ended up graduating with honors, almost with a minor in English, but the transition was awful because I didn't understand the concept of writing an outline and developing a paper.

The best thing the daughter can learn is how to do the research for main points and compose a rough OUTLINE *not a full draft*. 90 minutes is plenty of time (barring learning disabilities) to turn an outline into a thousand word essay. That's why they have so much time to work on it.

She will probably need to do this for state testing - our juniors need to be able to write a decent essay in my state, without a night or two ahead of time to prepare. The topic is given to them during the test. I believe the writing length is shorter, but the teacher is preparing them well for that, by the time their test rolls around it will be a piece of cake.

I had to do the same to get my teaching certification. The basic skills test - even for art teachers - includes a writing portion where they throw a topic at you and you have to be able to compose an essay on the spot. The details given in the OP (transition sentences and sentences per paragraph) sound less like individual teacher "taste" and more like standards they will be graded on for high stakes testing.

I don't want to sound like I'm advocating this purely for teaching to the test, which is something I normally abhor. I'm just saying I bet that's behind a lot of it. But also it is a job skill as well. I've been in jobs where I've had to write memos or longer documents without days to linger over them. Schools need to prepare kids to be able to write on demand.

If you (the OP, not leftymom) decides to speak to the teacher, that's the approach I would take. Instead of complaining about the assignment, talk about how the daughter is preparing, explain you think based on the amount of work that she's not attacking this in the intended way, and find out how the teacher would recommend preparing. Your daughter will learn some great skills from that (which IS the point of education, not getting A's or getting good scores on state tests).

[LibDemAlways]

50. As I explained to the poster above, this isn't an "off the top of your

head" type of essay. It's essentially a mini research paper requiring extensive quoting from the text. The text is not available when she's actually writing the essay. An outline would not suffice. The preparation has to be very detailed and specific. Daughter's beef with this is that preparing five short research papers in two nights - especially given that four of the five will never be written - is too much. I think her preparations are just fine. It's the assignment that's out of line IMO.

[LibDemAlways]

47. The teacher requires that the students come prepared with extensive

notes and quotes from the text for each possible essay. It's not a "write this off the top of your head" sort of exercise. It's basically preparing for five research papers in two nights. The teacher expects extensive quotes from the text in the essay, but the text is not available during the writing of the paper.

I'm all for my daughter learning how to write. I just wish the teacher would limit the scope of this particular assignment somewhat. Given all she has to do, it's simply too much.

[LeftyMom]

55. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

You stated that your daughter was writing rough drafts of the essay based on the potential prompts. She should not be doing that, she should be writing outlines, and perhaps her thesis, topic and transition sentences if she has a rough time with those and needs to pre-plan them in order to execute them promptly on short notice.

Based on the expected length she should be writing very simple five paragraph essays, and by now she should know this form by rote. All she needs to prepare for each topic are a thesis statement, three supporting arguments with textual evidence for each, and a conclusion restating her argument. She needs, at the very most, nine bits of textual evidence per essay prompt. 3-6 would be better given the word count and time frame, and of course some of these will work for more than one prompt because they'll be major features of the work. Since she's already been studying the work for some time this is not at all unreasonable, and would really not be unacceptably challenging for a junior in high school even if this were a completely new work, provided it was not a terribly long or difficult read (an essay or short story would be fine, a book a bit much.)

[BrklynLiberal]

56. Makes a lot of sense. That is great advice

:thumbsup:

[hayu_lol]

38. How does her B- grade stack up compared with the...

grades of her peers? That might be a better way to judge her results. Is she in the top 5 students on this paper? Top 10 and so on.

Was this the first test like this? Maybe it was supposed to alert the students to material coming along later so that they would know what to prepare for.

I do wish that English teachers would spend more time on spelling however.

[robo50]

39. Absurd work requirements. Teacher way out of line, should be fired.

My final answer.

Let that teacher know what it's like to have to live without summer vacation, or better still, live without a job.


Two topics, two days to prepare, more reasonable, but best would be for

teacher to just stick to the basics, five or ten books to read in Junior year, from Shakespeare to Emerson.

Send the kid to college with A's in junior English, and an ability to write a couple pages of rational prose.

[LibDemAlways]

65. You sound like a very sensible person. Too bad you're not teaching

at my daughter's school.

[noamnety]

40. Some of your wording reads oddly to me.

"her concluding paragraph apparently was one sentence too short for the teacher's taste"

If the teacher gave specific criteria for paragraph length ahead of time, then it's a reasonable request. I guess you could argue that giving ANY criteria is dependent on the teacher's "taste" - but this isn't a "taste" issue, it's an issue of being able to write an essay that conforms to specific guidelines. That in and of itself is a skill. If a college application asks for 2 typed pages and a student turns in 1, that's a problem (whether or not you agree with the admission dept's "taste"). If an employer specifically requests a one page resume, and you submit a 4 page resume, it's a problem.

If there is a grading rubric, a student can either meet those standards or opt not to meet them all, but it doesn't make sense to not meet them and then complain that the grade reflects this. Ditto for transition sentences.

Now if those guidelines aren't clearly provided to students, if they change without warning, then that's something that should be raised as a complaint to the teacher.

As for page length, some people sound shocked about the length - but I think the average words per page for handwritten work is about 300-500 words per page, meaning the essay would be about 1000-1500 words if she does 3 pages. For comparison purposes, my entire post (checked after I finished writing it), is 282 words. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for her to write something 4 times this length in an hour and a half, after having several nights to come up with a couple main points on each topic.

[LibDemAlways]

48. The guidelines are never given in advance. Just "write a three to

five page paper" on this topic. The rubric appears on the graded paper after the fact, and the rubric is never the same. It's whatever the teacher feels like making up. So the kids have to be mindreaders as well as scholars.

What I should have emphasized is that these are basically mini-research papers requiring extensive quoting from the text. The text, however, is not available when the essay is actually written. So the preparations have to be extensive for each of the five possible essays. It's a tremendous amount of preparation, especially knowing that four of the essays will never actually be written.

[noamnety]

54. This is a valid request

"The rubric appears on the graded paper after the fact, and the rubric is never the same."

It's reasonable for students to see the grading rubric (or at least a list of requirements) as part of the assignment, particularly in an assignment like this that they are doing repeatedly.

Sometimes with creative writing there will be some subjective part of the grade (quality of ideas, for instance). But sentences per paragraph, transition sentences requirements, etc. should be consistent and known.

[LibDemAlways]

62. "But sentences per paragraph, transition sentence requirements, etc.

should be consistent and known." Believe me, they aren't. It's all guesswork.

[noamnety]

68. You mentioned the grading rubrics

are written on the paper when it's returned.

Could you post a couple of those for us? The teachers here could probably give you a pretty good critique of the rubrics, which might help when you have your appointment.

[LibDemAlways]

70. Here's one from the last paper. As you can see, it's pretty non-specific.

Requested topic treated completely.
Introduction states your opinion.
States points to be covered.
Body paragraphs contain details.
Body paragraphs contain examples.
Examples are specific.
Conclusion summarizes opinion.
Conclusion makes a broad statement.
Sentences vary in length,
Grammar rules followed.

Based on this rubric, she downgraded my daughter to a 2 out of 5 on her conclusion, stating it wasn't long enough, even though she provided no guidelines on how long it should be - only that it should "make a broad statement" and provide a summary - which is exactly what daughter did.

She received a 3 out of five on the points to be covered, even though her introduction was very lengthy and explained in detail what points would be covered.

All in all she received five out of five on 7 of the 10 rubric points. How that translated to an "81" on the paper is anybody's guess.

I'm curious as to your opinion of this rubric, which, by the way, was not provided in advance, but tacked onto the graded paper. It seems pretty vague to me.

[noamnety]

73. The rubric itself looks pretty solid to me.

I can't speak to the subjectivity of the grades, having not seen the paper, but as a rubric, that's about the level of specificity I would expect.

Regarding the form in which it was given in advance ... I wasn't in the classroom. Personally, I put my grading rubrics in writing and post them online for each assignment (before they are turned in), and I'm in a computer lab - so each student can refer to the rubrics as they are working on a project.

Some teachers talk through the expectations and verbally tell the students what's expected. The 5 paragraph essay is so standard and universal that even though I'm not an English teacher, the things on that rubric look very familiar to me, and I do have to believe that any student in that class would expect those things to be required whether or not it was put in writing. You can search online and find requirements and descriptions for writing the 5 paragraph essay, like this: http://www.custom-essays.org/essay_types/Five_5_Paragraph_Essay.html.

My view of this whole discussion may be colored by my own experiences with students who expect A's, and their parents. Recently I had one angry parent because I gave a student a zero on an assignment he never turned in, and it affected his grade on a progress report. The parent sent me hate mail because I didn't give the student fair warning that an assignment wasn't turned in. When the progress report arrived home, the kid was irate, hurt, upset. The remarks said "missing assignment" and the grade reflected the zero averaged in there.

What I explained back to the parent was that:

1) every assignment was posted online, and student submissions were also posted online. At any point, the student could double check that they had a submission turned in for assignment one, two, three, etc. There's no way for me to "misplace" a paper assignment - every submission is online and date stamped.

2) A week or so before progress reports, I posted an announcement that assignments 1 - whatever would be included on the progress report. That took all the guess work out of wondering which assignments to double check.

3) I had emailed the student with feedback, including a statement that the one assignment was missing, prior to my grades being submitted.

4) The day before submitting my grades, I called every student in the class, including that one, to my desk individually, showed them their grades for each assignment as I always do, making a point of identifying zeros, in case I overlooked something they submitted.

----
My point is that sometimes parents don't get the full story. It's better for parents to go into a meeting and ask the teacher if students know the requirements ahead of time rather than going in and accusing the teacher of not providing them, because if that turns out to be wrong and you have to backpedal it will throw off your credibility regarding the other valid points you do want to make. Don't go in and tell the teacher how she's teaching based on what your daughter says, in other words, but ask the question. And then based on her answers, make suggestions that you think would help your daughter out.

[janx]

90. I just noticed this.

So the rubric consists of a ten point list as you posted above? :shrug: And it keeps changing?

[LibDemAlways]

93. Yes, the teacher just attaches any rubric she feels like, and it's never

provided in advance - just stapled to the graded essay.

[janx]

94. That's not helpful.

It's inconsistent.

[LibDemAlways]

97. True. It's part of the reason this is so frustrating.

My daughter never knows what the teacher is looking for. She works her butt off on the content only to find out after the fact that the teacher is more interested in the form. Next time might be different, though. The kids are expected to read her mind.

[ohheckyeah]

104. And that is your main argument

when you talk to the teacher, IMO.

As for the preparing for 5 essays and spending 12 hours in two days...that's ridiculous I think. If a child has any other classes that's too much homework for high school. I had college classes that didn't require that much homework. Graphic design classes were the most time demanding homework wise I had except for Psychology.

[tigereye]

82. yeah, extensive quoting from the text seems a bit much with no ability to

examine said text.


Well, good luck, you can take a lot of these ideas and develop your (and her!) strategy from here.

[Shell Beau]

42. I don't know, but it makes me happy that I am no longer in school.

Good luck with your meeting with the teacher.

[denbot]

43. That is a bit much..

But good training for college.

[CreekDog]

46. You might talk to the teacher and compliment the teacher

on the teacher's ability to cause students to not major in English because their teacher was such a dick and made the subject totally unappealing to them.

:eyes:

[noamnety]

51. More seriously

You might look online at strategies for having a successful parent teacher meeting. I have a hunch that would be a good start before Tuesday's meeting. There's a strong negative attitude in the OP rather than a sense of looking for advice to help your daughter be successful.

I could be way out of line here since this is just a thread on the internet, but I suspect your own negative attitude is actually making your daughter more miserable by validating how awful the teacher is and how unreasonable the requirements are, rather than honestly looking for advice on what's expected. There might be some counterproductive stuff going on here, you know? Sometimes in an effort to lend a sympathetic ear, we tend to build up resistance and confirm that there's nothing positive in an assignment. Hang around negative people, you'll develop a more negative attitude about whatever they are complaining about.

I'm betting the teacher didn't intent for the assignment to be that many hours of work at home. I would state how much time it's taking her, and bring in samples of her rough drafts, and ask for a sample of what the teacher would expect a student to have prepared for one of these assignments before the day of the writing itself.

[LibDemAlways]

53. I was very diplomatic in my e-mail to the teacher, telling her

that I would like to discuss strategies for helping my daughter "better understand and meet your expectations." I know how the game is played.

I also indicated that my daughter had spent 12 hours over two nights preparing for the essay, and the teacher didn't flinch. Her comment: "Sounds about right."

I'm sure she feels she is doing the kids a favor. What she's doing in my kid's case is making her despise going to school.

[noamnety]

57. If she put in writing that 12 hours over two nights is her homework expectation

and sticks with that in the meeting, too, I would forward that to the principal, because that expectation is unreasonable. It assumes there is no other homework requirement over that two day period. If two teachers simultaneously had that sort of assignment, kids could end up literally with no time to sleep.

I am not sure I believe that's actually true, that she thinks 12 hours over two days is a good amount of homework. And you can take that statement however you like - if it is in fact true, then you have some confirmation from a teacher that it's an unbelievable amount of homework to be demanding over a two day period.

[LibDemAlways]

61. Believe me there are kids in that school who get no sleep. My daughter

has an extremely motivated friend (more power to her) who is taking 5 AP classes. You should see the kid. She is always exhausted.

Typically, on non-essay prep nights, my daughter comes home at 3:00 and goes to bed at 11 or 11:30. In between is homework and dinner -eaten while doing homework. The teachers over there simply pile it on. And the particular teacher in question truly does not think that 6 hours per night in essay preparation is excessive. It's expected.

[JTG of the PRB]

60. I never liked those sorts of tests, but it's where I learned and perfected the fine art of bullshit.

[Jamastiene]

66. The best English teacher...

First, here is the advice:
This teacher you mentioned sounds like one of those that may have a method to her madness. My suggestion would be to call her and set up an appointment to meet with her as soon as possible. When you get there, ask every single question you asked in your OP. Really discuss this with her and make sure she understands your concerns.

If she is a true hard ass and INSISTS on doing things JUST HER WAY, ask if she will consider lightening up on the grading if your daughter will continue to put in the effort.

If she has a clear reason and is not just being a hard ass, you can go from there and just talk to her. That is probably the best thing you can do in this situation.


The reason I am giving this advice:

Actually, I should clarify what I am about to say. It is rather long, but I'm not writing for a grade and do not have time to edit it. I do have a point to make though. I think you and your daughter will appreciate the reason behind this advice.

My favorite English teacher encouraged students to read and write. She also took up for me when other students picked on me for being different. She was great at fostering my interest in reading and writing. She expanded my vocabulary and left me with a real appreciation for writers I had never considered previously. Her role was to foster the interest and keep me engaged in the subject. She did her job.

However, the "best" English teacher I ever had was a total prick. It sounds like a dichotomy, I know, but there is a reason I stated it just like that.

Based on the next few sentences, you wouldn't know why I said he was a total prick.

He constantly read my writing aloud in class, without saying who wrote it, as an example of how the assignments SHOULD HAVE BEEN written. He constantly told me I was great at writing. He really spent a lot of time with me after classes in his office explaining things to me.

But...

He made me rewrite papers sometimes 6 or 7 times. He gutted every sentence I ever wrote, except one descriptive exercise that he made us do on the spot in class one day. He once made me completely change my entire thesis subject one day before a big paper was due.

He always ran over our alloted appointment time in his office after class. He kept me in his office for 2 EXTRA hours on one occasion while another student waited outside. The average appointment he gave me was always on a Friday and always the last appointment of the day. He did that so he could keep me as long as possible and COMPLETELY gut every paper I ever wrote.

If he goes to Hell when he dies, Satan will need security to avoid a brisk, violent coup d'etat. He was HELL.

By far, though, the worst thing he did was make me shorten my research paper on Jeffrey Dahmer from 7 pages to 4 pages.

It was our final assignment in English 111. The assignment was limited to 3-5 pages and he intended to keep me to that limit no matter what. He even took a page away, for punishment, because I balked at shortening it to 5 pages. So, I had an even tighter page limit that any other student. I hated that. I was really proud of my Dahmer paper.

That was my last straw. I stood up, went over to the wall of his office, put my face in the corner, held my hands up to my head, and took several deep breaths to keep my cool as best I could. I was furious with him and his sadistic editing.

Finally, I turned around and told him that I had had enough. That afternoon, I hurled a list of rapid-fire questions at him that actually made him sit back with a look of shock on his face. I asked him point blank why he was so hard on me. I asked him why he let the other students have 15 minute appointments while I ALWAYS had to stay so much longer. I asked him why he was constantly trying to make me shorten my paper when the other students always needed MORE material just to meet the MINIMUM number of pages.

Finally, I was ready to walk out and be done with him, with a passing grade or failing grade. I did not care at that point. I had had it. It was either stand and fight him in a knock down drag out war or walk away. I was going to walk away.

After a long awkward silence, he asked me one question I will never forget. He asked, "Why did you wait until the final edit of your final paper in this class to ask me those questions?"

I was speechless and confused. I told him I was afraid to ask before that day. I had to get angry to ask him those questions. After that head butting incident, we had a long and enlightening conversation.

It turned out he had wanted some student, any student, to ask him those questions, but no one ever asked...until I did. We just griped and dealt with him as an enemy, because he really was a prick about things.

We took every edit personally. Not all of our papers were about "other" topics that semester. Many of them were about our own life experiences. We were too emotionally involved with our writing to see that the zillions of edits were not something we should have been taking personal. The edits were so that we could learn to make the writing more clear and concise and get our point across better.

Writing is an art form. There is some science to it, but much of it is artistic expression. It is difficult to separate the artistic expression from the science of it. We take it personal when edits are suggested.

I was the only student who made an A in his class that semester. I had him for another English class the next year and it went smooth as silk that entire semester. I knew the drill and I knew why. I enjoyed the second English class I took under him. It was like my grade school English classes I had always enjoyed before. I regained my love of English, because I understood why he was such a prick about things.

Afterward:
Granted, I could probably cut this story down to 5 paragraphs, but I still disagree that "shorter is always better" meme and I still disagree that all paragraphs have to have that hourglass design to them. He DID make me a better writer, though, because this could have been much longer. :evilgrin:

[LibDemAlways]

67. Thanks for sharing. I happen to believe that writing is a talent like singing

that can be improved with practice to a point. Beyond that it all depends on natural ability. And I am fiercely opposed to assignments that require students to write "in a box." In other words, topic sentence, explanation, detail, detail, explanation, transition, etc. etc. Good writers might be able to write like that, but most don't.

I do intend to speak with my daughter's teacher, mostly because I think her essay expectations are off base. I'm interested in hearing her out though.

Ironically, the teacher attended the same high school where I taught English many years ago. She arrived the year after I left. I know the people who were her English teachers, and believe me, she never had to prepare to write 5 essays and then discard many hours of hard work by actually writing just one in class. As my late great dad would have sad, "Who the hell cooks this stuff up?"

When I was in English class in high school we were given an assignment to write a short story and make 30 copies - one for everyone in the class. All stories were anonymous. No one was supposed to know who had written each story. I worked very hard on the damn thing, and I still remember the teacher reading it aloud and ridiculing a particular plot point. I'm sure I turned beet red. I wanted to die. I'm also sure he had no idea how much that hurt. It still hurts to this day.

Teachers are only human. All I ask of my daughter's teachers is that their expectations are in line with the students' abilities. In this case, the teacher is, IMO, overreaching.

I appreciate your input. Thanks.

[noamnety]

69. Here are a couple areas where you might be undermining the teacher.

"I happen to believe that writing is a talent like singing that can be improved with practice to a point. Beyond that it all depends on natural ability."

It's not the job of teachers to write off some students as incapable of becoming good writers. There is a whole area of research about that - about what happens when teachers come into a class with low expectations of some students. Without posting a dissertation on the subject here, suffice it to say it's a good thing if her teacher doesn't buy into that view. And it's a bad thing if you're communicating that to your daughter in any way, letting her think there's a limit to how much she (or any other student) can improve their writing.

"And I am fiercely opposed to assignments that require students to write "in a box." In other words, topic sentence, explanation, detail, detail, explanation, transition, etc. etc. "

It doesn't matter if you are fiercely opposed to that or not, or even if the teacher personally is fiercely opposed to it or not. State and national mandated benchmarks and standards REQUIRE public school teachers to teach the ability to write in this particular format. It would be a waste of your time and the teacher's time to use your appointment to argue about that point, and it's a pointless exercise in fueling resentment to hold that against a high school English teacher. If you oppose it, raise it as a point of contention to the right people. It's kind of like trying to hold an army cook personally responsible for Obama's decision to increase troops to Afghanistan.

[LibDemAlways]

71. I'm not communicating to my daughter that she's incapable of becoming

a good writer. I think she's a very good writer. I'm a retired English teacher and have encountered many students, however, who struggle with writing. Some of them do just fine when allowed a little more freedom of expression, but not all of them will become competent writers. My husband works alongside brilliant engineers and scientists who can't formulate a coherent sentence. Their brains aren't wired that way.

Some people need the box, true. And I can understand why the schools do it. I'm not going to argue with the teacher that she shouldn't. Although I do happen to believe that forcing everybody into the same box can be very frustrating for the student who has something to say, but who struggles with the form. It's sort of like forcing a jazz musician to conform to the dictates of a classical piece. They might be able to do it, but it's not their style.

You sound sort of hostile toward me. I'm just expressing some opinions based on my life experience. In my original and subsequent posts, I was only trying to state an issue my daughter is grappling with and looking for some feedback. Believe me, I'm a harmless soul who isn't trying to hurt or undermine anybody. Just looking for advice/ways to improve my daughter's situation in English class.

[tigereye]

84. I've read through this entire thread, it is very enlightening, and I admire

how positive you have remained throughout. It is good for your daughter that you are so open-minded and searching for ways to help her!


I wish you both well.

[LibDemAlways]

95. Thanks! There's nothing worse than reading a DU thread that

degenerates into a bunch of name calling. I once started a thread about an experience I had with a screaming child seated near me in a restaurant and was ripped to shreds.

If I wasn't interested in hearing people out, I wouldn't have posted to begin with. It never ceases to amaze me how some people prefer to go into attack mode, though, rather than engage in a discussion.

Thanks for your input throughout this thread. Much appreciated.

[noamnety]

86. Apologies

I was aiming for blunt, not hostile. Better to hear from me that the 5 paragraph essay with transition sentences and everything else in that box is a nonnegotiable state standard, than to try to bring that into a debate with the teacher. If you get pissed at me, a random internet dork, there aren't any negative consequences. If you try hashing that out with the teacher, it'll possibly make her dismiss other valid points you have.

But probably some frustration came out when a few people (myself included) suggested we think your daughter isn't preparing correctly for this, and your reaction was dismissive to the point where I don't think you'd be willing to even ask that question or bring samples of her prep work. I think you're shooting yourself in the foot a bit with that, because therein might lie the miscommunication and confusion over how much work is required. Now possibly I am completely wrong in that assessment, but I don't see the harm in bringing the rough drafts to the meeting and at least asking that question.

[LibDemAlways]

91. Apology accepted. Anyhow, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I was

just a little frustrated, perhaps at myself, for not making it clear in the OP that these were not "off the top of the head" essays. They were - and are - mini research papers requiring source citations. Each essay has to be plotted out. Quotations have to be culled and sourced in MLA format. They have to then be woven into the fabric of the essay. It's a lot of work - especially since four-fifths of it will never come to fruition. It's just overwhelming. And, of course, the fifth one, which happened to be the one chosen, was the last one my daughter tackled - literally at 10PM the night before the essay was to be written - when she was dead tired from preparing the previous four.

I'm confident that most kids did very little preparation. There are a bunch of goof-offs in the class who just blow the whole thing off. My daughter isn't one of them. She worked extremely hard, and was beyond frustrated that her efforts were dismissed because the teacher felt her conclusion wasn't strong enough. Her attitude at this point is, "What difference does it matter how hard I work? So and so did nothing and still got a C." Hard to convince a teenager that hard work is its own reward!

I have no intention of going in there and criticizing the teacher or her methods. I think at this point it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask in advance for the grading rubric, however, and question her about how many sentences/paragraphs/transition phrases she's looking for. That would all be very helpful, but it hasn't been forthcoming.

I know you mentioned in another post that you had butted heads with a parent recently over a grade. Last year I had a six-week sub assignment at a middle school. One day I switched some students' seats around and received an extremely angry three page letter from a parent calling me every name in the book. I know how irrational people can be. Back when I was teaching full time I had no choice but to give a senior a failing grade in English - which meant he couldn't graduate. I received tremendous pressure from the parents, and even the principal, to give him the D. But I couldn't. He never came to class and he didn't turn in a single assignment. Teachers often bear the brunt of parental frustration.

I don't dislike my daughter's teacher. And I am not setting out to make her life difficult. I just want to determine where she's coming from and if there is some way to improve this situation.

[GreenPartyVoter]

83. I think the grading sounds a bit harsh. Not necessarily a bad idea to

prepare for all of those topics, though maybe 3 would be better. I remember the blue book exams in college and how one year the only thing that saved my butt on one of them was the professor had given us 3 questions about which we could write 1 long single answer essay, two medium essays, or shorter essays for each of the three questions. I didn't even know what the heck two of the questions were asking me, but I was able to answer the remaining one very well and aced the exam (and the class.) Eek!

But as a retired English teacher wouldn't you be in a better position to judge whether or not this workload is appropriate? :)

[LibDemAlways]

87. I personally don't think it's appropriate. When I was teaching full time

twenty years ago expectations were very different. I taught 11th grade English back in the early 80's, and the curriculum then was much less intense. I assigned one paper the entire year! Back when I was in college, a prof would suggest two or three topics and ask the students to choose one to write about. The idea of insisting that a student prepare to write 5 essays in two nights with the expectation that only one would actually be written is something I'd never considered before.

Of course, that was then and this is now. I still think it's a shame that college level work has crept into high school. Teenagers are overworked and stressed out at a time of their lives when they should be participating in sports or clubs or just enjoying some down time. As stated up thread, my daughter has no activities outside of school. Her friends don't either. They spend nights and weekends doing their homework.

I have a good friend whose daughter theoretically should be a junior in college. Instead, she took this semester off, bought herself a ticket, and is seeing some of Europe, staying at youth hostels along the way. I admire her tremendously. The education she's getting overseas has no doubt been eye-opening and memorable. It should never be all about "the paper chase," though that's what we're led to believe is the be all and end all.

Thanks for your input. Three would certainly be more manageable than five.

[GreenPartyVoter]

99. Well, my kids are still in grade school so I've yet to find out if our local

schools are like your daughter's. I do know several high school kids from town, however, and they have all been participants of at least one extra-curricular activity.

[LibDemAlways]

102. That's good. Kids should have time for activities other than

homework. My daughter knows a bunch of kids who've dropped out of sports because they have no time to attend practices. The high school has a football team, but they didn't score a single touchdown all season! They have very little practice time scheduled because no one would show up!

I hope your kids find a good balance between academics and other activities that allow them to have a social life when they are high school. It will be here sooner than you think!

[old mark]

85. I hate high school and college English teachers. I never met a more arrogant group

of know-it-alls in my life. I finally tested out of college English Comp, scored in the highest .1%.

I have previously received an F in College English Comp.

FWIW, I have since published over a dozen poems and articles.

mark

[LibDemAlways]

88. I hope I was never an "arrogant know it all"! (I was an English teacher

back in a previous life. Today I sub all subjects and grade levels.)

Anyhow, I appreciate your point. Some people are naturally gifted writers. No amount of trying to force their thoughts into a box is ever going to be successful, and any such efforts will, no doubt, be wildly counter productive. My daughter was marked down on this particular essay not because she didn't understand the topic but because she came up one sentence short in her conclusion - entirely subjective judgment on the part of the teacher- who dissed her 19 points for it.

Nothing kills a person's spirit quicker than having many hours of hard work dismissed as inadequate - especially when that person knows he or she is better than that.

Thanks for weighing in.

[noamnety]

101. One of the things I do in my class

is allow for revisions. I know that I tend to grade hard. But also any student is allowed to redo an assignment for me and the new grade will replace the old grade. I'd rather have them revise the work and understand what makes a project successful than have them get a crap grade, shrug it off, and move on with their lives without ever meeting the standard.

In your daughter's case the teacher might not allow for a complete replacement of a grade if part of what they are looking for is being able to write within a time limit. But it's possible the teacher would consider allowing a revision to (ideally) raise the grade some percentage, or at least accept a rewrite to critique to let your daughter try writing what she thinks the teacher wants to see what would get her an A, so she knows better for next time what she's shooting for.

I've had parents in the past ask if I could provide their student with examples of A work, B, C, D and F work, so the student has a better idea what it takes to earn each grade.

[janx]

89. I teach college English. This teacher you describe is getting

your daughter ready for college English. What she's doing is hard core, but be thankful that your daughter doesn't have the opposite sort of high school teacher: one that teaches more movies than books, literature, or essays.

It sounds to me as if she's having them bone up on their reading and research skills; that's why she's asking them to study five topics only to write about one. They have to read critically and carefully in each topic, and that's vital.

Also, if I may offer a humble suggestion to your daughter: I don't know if her teacher uses a grading rubric, but normally the structure of an essay is important, and the introduction and conclusion factor heavily into this. So she should make sure that her introduction and conclusion are both strong. It's so tempting (for any of us!) to run out of steam at the end of a writing project.

Transitions are fine, but most students do that automatically, and I don't go ballistic if there isn't one at the end of each paragraph.

Since your daughter is bright, it's quite possible that her teacher is pushing her to produce the best writing she can. That's not such a bad idea, because once your daughter gets used to the challenge, she'll be well prepared for her college writing courses.

[LibDemAlways]

92. Thank you for your input. I appreciate your point of view as a college prof.

I majored in English- even taught freshman comp one semester as a grad student. That was a long time ago. Things must have changed tremendously in the interim. I realize that college level work is now the norm in some high schools. I know it is in my daughter's school, where kids are strongly encouraged to take AP classes. I think kids who sign up for honors or AP should expect a tough and rigorous curriculum. That's the reality today. However, this particular class is basic English III. I think preparation for two or three essays might be more appropriate. If the teacher is genuinely interested in teaching these kids to write to the best of their ability, I think narrowing the focus would be helpful. Instead of getting my daughter to do the best job possible, the teacher is only succeeding in frustrating her and turning her off to the subject matter. It floors me, but she told me the other day she'd much rather do chemistry or math because the grading isn't subjective. Makes me sad.

[janx]

96. How much rewriting is a part of her class?

Is there any emphasis on revision? Regarding the rubric (from another post), if it were more specific, the process wouldn't seem so subjective. I teach mostly college freshmen, but there are some high-school concurrent students too. They're often as good or better than the college students. But my rubric is very specific, and it doesn't change.

Preparation for two or three essays would work, yes.

[LibDemAlways]

98. No opportunities for revision. One shot only. Which is frustrating

because in real life people often have an opportunity to go back, see what they did wrong, and correct their errors. That's an important part of any learning process IMO. When I taught full time, revision was a big deal. This is my daughter's third year in high school, and she's never been given an opportunity to revise her work.

[GreenPartyVoter]

106. Not being able to revise is terrible. Sure, it might be prepping her for tests, where there is

no real time for revision. But she needs to be able to develop those revision skills. In fact, one of the struggles we've had with my older son is that he thinks he can get it out there good enough on the first go, and never really revised any of his work. He seems to be getting over that attitude now, though.

To be very honest, I would rather have teachers push the kids. Not steamroll them, but push them. I can't get over how much student work is posted in the halls without having been revised. Even just little captions on paintings. I can understand letting it slide in the primary grades, but there's no reason for kids grades 4 and up to put up anything but their very best revised work where everyone is going to see it. I'd have been mortified as a kid to have my mistakes plastered all over the school hallways.

[LibDemAlways]

108. I think kids should be given an opportunity to revise as well. It's how

they learn in the real world. The projects my husband works on at his job are rarely finished. They are constantly being revised. That's the real world, and it does the kids a disservice to think whatever they turn in is it and they never have to look at it again. The first in-class essay should, ideally, be the starting point - corrected for the most egregious errors and returned for revision.

Problem is I suspect that the teacher doesn't want to look at those things again. She just wants to move on to the next topic that has to be covered before the standardized tests come up.

[GreenPartyVoter]

109. Nothing like teaching to the tests.

[Lethe]

100. sounds a bit excessive

i could understand maybe preparing for a choice of two topics....but five is a bit much for all that preparation.

reminds me of a professor in college i had for one of my electrical engineering classes: for the final exam, he told us that it was going to be comprehensive; covered everything we had studied in the class. turns out we get the final exam, and it's on a single subject we never even remotely covered. at the top of the exam it said "an engineering student must be able to overcome difficulties and learn under pressure." so we had this big fat stack of carbon copy lecture material that we had to read and then figure out how to answer the (very indepth) questions.

i passed the test but i still hate that professor to this day.

[LibDemAlways]

103. I hate bait and switch too. You no doubt spent hours reviewing the material

and preparing for that comprehensive test. And then to get there and find out that he pulled a fast one like that. Don't blame you one bit for feeling the way you do.

Better you than me with the electrical engineering class. I bow before anyone who tackles technical subjects. I barely made it out of high school algebra with a courtesy "C"!

Thanks for the input. I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking preparation for five essays is too much. This thread has been an eye-opener, and though I don't agree with some of the posts, I appreciate and respect all of the responses.

[kid a]

105. I teach high school english and now I feel like a lightweight! Exact perfection? No

I'd be interested in seeing the entire stack of papers to see what the broad range of papers looked like.

[LibDemAlways]

111. Do you ever assign this sort of work? Just curious. When I was

teaching full time it would never have dawned on me to ask the students to prepare five essays, when they would only have had to write one. I would rather they take their time on the one and do the best job possible rather than spreading themselves too thin.

I'm sure most of the papers were pretty bad. The majority of kids in basic college prep English are there because they are the least motivated. They know they only have to be 18 to attend the local junior college, so they're basically waiting it out. I would be surprised if many even looked at the prompts in advance.

I can guarantee that my daughter's paper was way better than most. I've read it and I think the teacher was very harsh in her grading. She didn't provide a rubric in advance, (never does and it's always different), so it was impossible to know what she'd be looking for. Her only objections were a missing transition sentence and a conclusion that was one sentence too short. That brought her grade down to a B-.

[Zavulon]

107. It's very reasonable.

This is prep for college, which is prep for earning a living. Unless you have reason to believe that every boss she ever has will be fair and reasonable at all times, nothing you describe is anything worse than what a lot of us have gone through in school and on the job.

[LibDemAlways]

110. I understand your point, and I sure as hell know how the

real world works. These kids will encounter unreasonable bosses and unreasonable situations throughout their lives. But does it have to start in basic high school English class where the homework time might be better spent sharpening their writing skills instead of spreading themselves thin trying to conduct research for 4 essays they will never actually write? I know the teacher thinks so, and so ultimately my daughter has to do it. Just think it's not the best use of those after-school homework hours that have to be divided between 5 subjects.

[Zavulon]

114. You write: "does it have to start in basic high school English..."

Yes, it does. You earlier describe the course as "regular college prep English," which is actually a bit higher than "basic high school English" - but even if I have the gist wrong here, let me give you an example of what I mean...

...I went to high school in Canada, in the Province of Quebec, when I lived in Laval. One of our assignments, as inane as it was, was to memorize state capitals in the United States. I got along well with one of my teachers, and asked him "Seriously what's up with this bullshit?" His response: "Nobody gives a shit if you actually memorize them for life. The idea is to teach you how to memorize things you might not care about just in case you ever have to, which is why we throw in so many of those mnemonic devices." At the end, they didn't care if I knew the capital of Nebraska, they cared that I could memorize it if necessary.

Look, seriously, if you don't agree with me that's one thing - but if you go on record to the powers that be in that school claiming unfairness against your kid, that's a lot like the Seinfeld episode where doctors labeled Elaine as difficult - and the results will be similar. So far, the worst you've described to me is a B-, which is not a disaster. You're better off letting your kid go through trial by fire than protesting every apparently unfair step. Trust me.

[LibDemAlways]

115. Not protesting every unfair step. Not protesting at all. Going in with

the attitude "How can my kid better meet your expectations?" (Going with daughter because teacher has a penchant for sarcasm and treats students dismissively.)

In my daughter's school Basic English and Basic English college prep are the same thing. There are also Honors and AP level classes for those who want to tackle something allegedly more difficult. Daughter has friends in both Honors and AP, however, and their workload isn't significantly greater.

About the memorization. Some is normal and expected. However, it's basically all the kids are called on to do anymore. Digest gobs of info and spew it back. Very little, if any, room for any original thinking. I suppose it's because of all the standardized testing, but it isn't turning out critical thinkers.

Anyhow, do appreciate your taking the time to comment. Thanks.

[Hippo_Tron]

112. Tell her to ask the teacher how she can do better

One strategy I've found with teachers and professors is to never complain about an assignment or the way an assignment is graded. Instead tell them that you are studying hard and that it isn't paying off like you want it to and ask them how you can do better.

And to answer your question, I don't think the assignment itself is unreasonable. I do think expecting a well structured papers in 90 minutes is unreasonable. I can tell you that my professors in college don't put too much weight into the quality of writing on tests with essays. If they want something well written they will assign a paper. In-class essays/tests are supposed to be designed to test whether or not you've read and understand and have thought about the material, not how well you write.

Yes in the real world you might have a job where you have to write under time constraints. But generally it's things that require far less thought than an essay on a work of literature.

[LibDemAlways]

113. Thanks, Hippo_Tron

This teacher is more concerned with form than with content. My daughter stuffed her paper full of specific examples and quotes from the text after preparing quotes and examples for all five essays. Her teacher had no complaints at all with the content - wrote "excellent job weaving quotes in" on her grading sheet. Where my daughter apparently fell down was in not including one transition sentence and in making her concluding paragraph too short - though the teacher provided no guidance as to how long a concluding paragraph needed to be. She also complained that my daughter used a contraction. She wasn't aware that was a no-no.

I do realize that it's not productive to go in guns blazing, ready to shoot the teacher. This particular teacher is very sarcastic in the way she talks with her students, so I've made an appointment for the two of us to go see her. And we will be very diplomatic and ask positively for suggestions. I'm well aware that teachers are often very sensitive about criticism and it's important to tread lightly. I'm a teacher, too, and have heard earfuls!

[noamnety]

116. Ugh contractions.

I always have issues with contractions - I use them all the time. I never got marked down for them - it was never an issue - until grad school. I had to learn to write my papers, then run a search for all apostrophes to eliminate them. But if I had to handwrite an essay, that would be a big problem for me.

APA format doesn't allow them, I'm not sure about MLA since my school was an APA school.

I learned to live with it because it was one of those things I couldn't control, but it was a pet peeve, I feel like in a master's program the emphasis should be on something other than if I used the word "can't" instead of "cannot."

[LibDemAlways]

118. Contractions....big deal. When a teacher worries about nit-picky stuff like

that, I question whether they have too much time on their hands.

Last year when I subbed for a 7th grade English teacher for 6 weeks, a writing unit came up. I had to teach how to write the ubiquitous 5-paragraph essay. (All teachers have to adhere to the same lesson plan, which is another issue). Anyhow, I dutifully followed the plan, and discovered that most of the kids had something to say, but few were able to say it without going outside the box - using contractions, failing to put a transition sentence in each paragraph....etc. I was extremely generous in my grading. I think I indicated that everybody "met the standard." Whatever. It's fine to teach kids that they should try to avoid contractions in their essays. It's another thing to make a big deal about an infraction here and there.

By the way, daughter has another in-class essay today. She prepared over the weekend. This time she only had two options to worry about. She took her time, came up with good well-sourced examples for both, and (I hope) was well prepared. We'll see. I honestly think with the five over two nights it was a case of asking her to bite off more than she could comfortably chew. I know many here disagree, and will continue to disagree, with me. That's fine. If anybody was in complete agreement on any DU thread, I'd think I was on the wrong website.

[MilesColtrane]

117. That's a ball busting assignment.

I think the range of topics should be narrower, say three.

And, students should be allowed a copy of the text.

[LibDemAlways]

119. Whew...finally someone who agrees with me! I think three is ok if given

two nights to prepare. I still maintain five is too many, especially since the teacher expects a lot of specific examples and fully sourced quotations from the text as well as perfect form - which is rather subjective since she doesn't provide a grading rubric in advance.

Many here argued that my daughter will be well prepared for college. Actually I think if kids think this is what they have to look forward to, they're not going to be particularly anxious to go to college! Mine isn't anyway, and she's quite intelligent.

Thanks for weighing in.