Need advice. My brother in law is a lazy, sexist, frequent dinner guest.

[tblue]

He lives pretty close by, so he comes over for dinner a couple times a week, and I feel like he treats me the way men in previous generations treated their wives.

This is a dude who never lifts a finger to help cook or clean _anything_. Ever. Ever! He'll just come in, and MAYBE he'll get himself a soda. After that, he sits, he waits for dinner to appear in front of him, he eats, he participates in some after-dinner conversation, he says yes he wants coffee, he eventually gets up, says "hey thanks," and he leaves.

Never does he offer to help with anything. He doesn't do so much as put a dirty spoon in the sink. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Sometimes my husband cooks or barbecues. My husband and son also help with the cleanup, usually. They're great. I have no complaints about them. But after many years of being this dude's hostess, cook, waitress, barista, bus boy, dishwasher, and maid, I'm frankly tired of this "guest of honor" who feels his contribution, his part, his sole obligation is "Showing Up." Oh do me something.

None of this bothered me much for a long time. For years I've been aware that he lacks certain social graces, about picking up the check at a restaurant, for instance. He is a pretty stingy individual in general, but he doesn't have much money and I don't want his money anyway. There have been times over the years when he slept over our house, and again he didn't do much (read: anything) to clean up after himself. I tried not to let this kinda stuff bother me, tried not to make my husband feel bad that I was unhappy with his brother. But last night, as I'm cleaning up the pots and pans after dinner, and I'm filling the dishwasher, and my son is getting coffee for everybody, I take a towel to wipe the table. Everyone at the table, except this BIL, iis handing me glasses, etc. they're done with, making room so I can clean the table, and this BIL of mine doesn't do a thing, doesn't move a muscle, doesn't offer or acknowlege anything. He doesn't so much as lift up his hands that are folded in front of him on the table. I had to ask him to please move his hands a second so I could finish wiping the table.

Listen, the dude's a pleasant enough person, I suppose. But he has finally really, really gotten on my nerves. Problem is I don't want to get mad at him because I'd only hurt him. And I refuse to do that. But I am pissed, and I feel like, because I am a woman, he takes advantage, and it's just supposed to be understood that he's a guest who's always welcome to take, take, take, take, because it's his brother's house. And I, as the woman, am only doing the work I'm supposed to do and that men never have to do. Or appreciate. Or even just acknowlege. Me not happy.

Sorry to rant at you nice people. I finally told this to my husband, because the hands on the table was the last straw. I am really pissed! I don't want to cause friction in the family, but I don't think I'm being treated right in my own home. And I don't know what to do.

Any advice?

[dysfunctional press]

1. take a chill pill.

it doesn't seem that he's doing it to be purposely rude or to get under your skin- he's just oblivious about it. have you ever said anything to him directly about how you felt about his actions? has your husband?

[tblue]

9. Ok. I will take a pill. Thanks.

[MicaelS]

2. Men CAN be utterly clueless

Not out of any malice, but simply because that is the way they are, and no one has ever taught them better. And let's face it, in our society, the task of teaching men better manners usually falls to women. As a man my advice is as follows:

(1) Do NOT "hint", be direct.

(2) Say to BiL: "BiL, I need your help, can you please do A, B or C."

(3) When that is done, ask if he can do another task.

(4) After he is done, thank him.

(5) If you can, pull him aside, and speak directly to him, without anyone else present. Say "BiL, the fact is that you treat me like a servant in my own home. I work very hard cooking and cleaning, and I need your help cleaning up afterwords."

[Phentex]

5. all that plus hand him a pot to wash!

and a dish towel to dry.

[tblue]

14. He doesn't have to help, but just an offer would be lovely.

I guess I just feel so taken for granted, week after week after week. He really is generally someone on the take, and I won't bore you with my many petty-sounding examples. It's the cumulative effect that got to me last night. An offer of help, or just the tiniest bit of acknowlegement would go a long way.

Thanks for your input and for allowing me to vent. You'd be welcome here for dinner anytime!

[EOTE]

19. I think you're being waaaay too nice.

Some people will take as much as they can with no regard for the people who are being taken. I think there's a possibility that your BIL sees that you don't appear to be offended by his boorish behavior, so he continues it or even ramps it up. I really don't think that he's going to change anything until you clearly express your dissatisfaction with his behavior. It sucks that it has to be on you, but some people truly are that clueless. You might be doing him a huge favor by pointing out the social skills that he lacks.

[Demoiselle]

30. Um, no, he DOES have to help. Offers mean nothing.

I vote with those here who have suggested a direct approach. Maybe a very specific request to do one thing. For starters, anyway.
You don't have to drop long term resentments on his head...Just..."Bill, could you bring your plates (whatever) in here and help me clean up? Thanks so much!"
The fact that he's never done it before doesn't have to enter into the request.

[surrealAmerican]

17. I agree with this.

It sounds like he's completely oblivious, and the OP will just have to ask specifically for his help. If he's basically a decent fellow, he'll get the idea, and eventually start offering to help even before he's asked.

[Blue-Jay]

3. Have you tried kicking him in the nuts?

That usually works.

[Rhiannon12866]

4. Just my opinion, but I think your husband should take the lead in this...

After all, the reason that he comes to your house is because he's your husband's brother. It doesn't have to be a confrontation, just a casual request. If he's grilling, your husband could ask him to set the table. If you're having coffee, he could ask him to get out the cups... If he's asked to do a few small things often enough, he could graduate to larger tasks, or might think of doing them by himself, not that I'd hold my breath... ;)

[EOTE]

20. +1. It should be easier for brothers to point out these things.

It would seem to be a bit less awkward this way.

[Taitertots]

6. Weird way of treating invited guests

Bitching that they don't clean your house after you invite them over.


It must be these crazy things called manners, but when I have a dinner guest I take care of the dinner and clean up. Who invites someone over and expects them to clean up after the dinner? That is absolutely abhorrent manners.

[Phentex]

7. sounds like he invites himself over!

It's nice to play hostess when you actually do the inviting.

[grace0418]

10. A family member who invites himself over several nights a week is not your standard

dinner guest. A dinner guest is a friend or loved on who is INVITED over by the host, probably a little less often than 2-3 times a week. That guest usually arrives with a small token for the host (since we're talking about manners) like a bottle of wine or a dessert, and they at least OFFER to help in some way. At which point the host refuses and tells them to sit down and relax. Then, at some point in the future, especially after several invitations, that guest invites the host over to his/her house for a meal. That's how it works in my house and all my friends' and family's houses. Good manners is a two-way street.

This dude is a different story. Unless I'm mistaken it sounds like he shows up expecting dinner several times a week and never offers to return the favor or even bring anything to enjoy. If he expects that level of familiarity then he should also expect to pitch in like a member of the household would.

[Gormy Cuss]

13. +1

The lazy brother-in-law is still a guest, but it's okay for the OP to try to engage him in helping out since all the other family members are clearing their own places and helping with the clean up. It would help if her spouse trys to engage him too. Sometimes people with cloddish manners just need a push in the right direction, and it's best that push comes from family.

[Taitertots]

21. Where did the OP say he wasn't invited?

I'm under the impression that this person isn't just showing up at the front door. He is being invited over by the husband.

Good manners is not a two way street. You don't treat your dinner guests well because they bring wine or offer to help.

[grace0418]

24. That's not the way I read it. Even if he were invited by the husband, it's boorish

to accept an invitation several times a week and expect to be waited on hand and foot by his sister-in-law.

Good manners is absolutely a two-way street. I disagree with you. You treat your guests well as a matter of course (no, not because they bring wine or offer to help), but a good guest knows how to behave. Everyone has a responsibility to have good manners, whether they are a guest or a host.

[Taitertots]

25. The OP leads me to believe he is invited

It is terribly rude to expect dinner guests to clean up after dinner.


If she believes he is a bad guest what should she do? SHE should complain to HER husband and THEY should stop inviting this person over. Instead of complaining that he doesn't work for her when they invite him over for dinner. Or just maybe talk to them like an adult about it.


Good manners is a one way street. They are something given out without expectation of reciprocity. It is inherently altruistic, not selfish.

[auntAgonist]

40. nope he shows up according to OP

"My brother in law is a lazy, sexist, frequent dinner guest.

He lives pretty close by, so he comes over for dinner a couple times a week"

-------------------


no mention of invitation there.



He should help, everyone helps. This is family, not an occasional dinner guest.

[lildreamer316]

32. Reading comprehension, much? It's GOOD MANNERS to offer to help!

Where were you raised that you were taught that it was good manners to NOT offer to help?
Wow.
It is then up to the host to decline, which is usually done on the first or second time the person who is invited over is there.
If this becomes a regular thing, manners usually dictate that one starts to help, albeit minimally, with some cleanup.
This should be common sense.

[mnhtnbb]

8. Ask him to help. Matter of factly. Don't wait for him to offer or to guess what you want.

[Corgigal]

11. what about something light..

example, Hey Babe, you're family, help us out over here.

[grace0418]

12. Well he sounds clueless and has no manners, but it won't do any good to blow up at him. Instead,

just casually start asking him to do something every meal.

For example, before he arrives, call him and ask "Hey Steve (or Joe or Bob), I've made x and a bottle of cabernet would be really good with it, would you mind picking one up on your way over?"

Or when he gets there say "Hey good, you're here. Can you toss that salad (or set the table or slice those tomatoes) while I give this risotto a stir?"

Or after the meal say "Little tblue is going to help me put away the food, can you bring the dishes into the kitchen for me? Thanks"

Hopefully after a few times he'll get the picture and start offering to help, but he does sound pretty clueless so it may take awhile. Even if you have to ask him every time, at least you're getting some help.

You should also talk to your husband about this, unless you already have. It's not cool and you shouldn't have to feel like a servant in your own house.

[UTUSN]

15. Anybody who DOES help AT ALL (your husband, son) would eventually feel put upon, like you

Is your husband younger than the brother or otherwise submissive to him? Prescription remedies (do this, do that) are usually short term and don't get to the core problem. You are reaching YOUR limits, but probably until your husband reaches HIS limit about his brother nothing might change. Even your having told your husband how you feel won't necessarily move him toward HIS limit. I wonder what your husband's response was.

[struggle4progress]

16. Gotta go with all the posts sayin "Just ask him to help"

Why don't you pour yourself and my dear hubby a beer? Could you put this on the table for me? I forgot a serving spoon -- could you get one out? Would you put this in the sink for me? Could you wipe the table please? And so on. If your requests are directed, one after another at different family members, he can't possibly feel singled out and shouldn't feel put upon. If it doesn't work, have a quiet private chat with dear hubby about the fact that you'd prefer not to be treated as a servant in your own house

[Radical Activist]

22. It's amazing how much silent anguish some people will put themselves through

instead of just talking about what bothers them before they're so angry that they blow up.

[struggle4progress]

23. People's histories and situations vary. When somebody talks, some folk listen and some don't.

If you're used to expressing yourself one way, and encounter a person who's used to a different style, communication may be difficult. And it doesn't always work: try talking and pleasantly maturely to someone who just doesn't give a shit what you say, or listening quietly and maturely to folk who have no real concerns except themselves and their own feelings :shrug:

[Kali]

18. I'm with the start-ordering-the-bum-around crowd.

Just start asking him to do shit. It may seem obvious what little helps are needed to most people but Mr. Clueless obviously needs it pointed out. Start asking like he was a small child - 'cause that is what he is!

[NNadir]

26. Mrs. Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

I think this applies here.

Next time he shows up just say - in front of the rest of the family - exactly what you've said here. It may be unpleasant momentarily, but it is nonetheless, necessary.

You have a son and it your responsibility to teach him - by example - to be a man. If you allow your son this example, you are doing him no favor.

My mother fell in love with my father (who was the cousin of her brother-in-law) when she came to his house and saw him washing his mother's floor.

Now that was a man.

[MarcoMcHairyPants]

27. Two ways to solve this.

OK, you can either sit him down, and tell him exactly how you feel, while stressing and explaining that you are not saying this to hurt or attack him, but merely to try and get him to understand where you are coming from. Explain that you wouldn't even have this talk with him in the first place if you didn't care about him and wanted to make your relationship with him the best it can possibly be.

OR

You can go with a way that will REALLY leave an impression. Uh, probably NSFW.

You can create a recipe from this precious little cookbook:

I'd imagine the key ingredient would be not hard to obtain. If it's too awkward getting your son to contribute, just have a romantic (and vigorous)encounter with your husband in the kitchen while prepping the meal. This way, you can spice up your love-life AND your meal. (Just remember to collect the goods). After he eats his meal, show him the cookbook or website and explain to him that because he ingested the liquids in question, he is now on the same level that he perceives women to be on. Thus, there is no point for him to continue living a life where he continues to abstain from "womanly duties" such as helping with the freaking clean up after a meal.

[Monk06]

28. I think your disdain for your BIL is disguising your dissatisfaction with you family life vis a vis

your husband and son. Your BIL is not the problem
from what you have said here.

Just my impression, grain of salt and all that.

[Mugu]

29. Just ask him if he whats to wash or dry.

What's the problem?

[JVS]

31. If you don't want him invited over, take that up with your husband.

But the person upthread who pointed out that a guest is under no obligation to help you is right.

[lildreamer316]

33. Bull.

It is decidely boorish and not good manners to NOT offer to help. Anyone who was raised with any idea of a bit of consideration for other people would know this.

[JVS]

34. It's boorish and bad manners to expect your guests to do your dishes.

If he's there as the guest of the husband, let the husband do the extra work

[struggle4progress]

37. BIL is family, which isn't quite the same as "guest"

[auntAgonist]

41. exactly.

[skygazer]

35. People can only take advantage of you when you let them

(Thanks Dear Abby)

But seriously, rather than rant on a message board, say something to the guy. Simple as that. "Hey, Joe, get your butt up and help clear the table." "You want coffee? The pot's over there. Help yourself." Whatever it is you want out of him, ask for it. That's not rude - especially when it's family.

[Odin2005]

36. Ask him to help. If he refuses kick him out.

[BrklynLiberal]

38. Make him sit at the children's table...

[BlueJazz]

39. One of the things I'd do: When he comes over...Use Paper Plates and Plastic spoons.

[nolabear]

42. First, you might ask yourself why it's so hard to ask for help that it's gotten this far.

Then ask for help. Be specific and kind and honest. Tell him you would really appreciate it if he'd load the dishwasher, or call up one day and say "Hey, I'm fixing spaghetti but just don't have time to put a salad together and really would like one. Could you bring one?" Accept his contribution with verbal gratitude, sit back, sigh and say "It's SO nice to be able to put my feet up a little!" or some such. If he refuses then it'll be there for all to see and you have a right to expect backing in your objection. Or, he might become more scarce if he has to acknowledge that he doesn't want to help.

By the way, it's not true about men never having to do the work. If you weren't doing it and stuffing all that anger, people would eat. Hang in there; change is hard but worth it. And he might not stay so single if he learns to be more sensitive and contributing.