Question About Friendship

[DemocratSinceBirth]

If a friend had a friend who was in dire financial straits that needed help and he or she was able to do so but declined should that person still be considered a friend?

And for clarity I emphasize the word "able". Obviously if a person isn't in a position to help they can't help.

[taterguy]

1. Yes

[alphafemale]

2. Yes. But a person putting financial obligations on a friendship is NOT a friend.

Just because a person has money doesn't mean they are compelled to give it away to ANY other person.

Plus how can anyone possibly deem what another person is "able" to do anyway?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. What If The Friend Was To The Point Of Not Being Able To Provide For The Basics Of Life ?

And you had a seven or possibly eight digit net worth?

[alphafemale]

4. A person calling themselves a friend who puts obligations on a friendship is not a friend.

What?

The person in need has strung along the friendship so that one day they could hit them up for some guilt money?

Please.

No one is obligated to give money to someone.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Aren't You Adding Another Condition

"The person in need has strung along the friendship so that one day they could hit them up for some guilt money?"

What if the person found themself in need and this need was totally unanticipated?


In a way I agree with your sentiment that no one is obligated to give money to someone. But in a way I disagree. If I see somebody has fallen I have no legal obligation to help them get up but I do think I have a moral and ethical obligation just as I have a mmoral and ethical obligation to help someone in any way I can if I am able.

[alphafemale]

12. "Give me money or your not my friend anymore." nt

That's not a friendship.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. What If A Friend Let A Friend Become Homeless If He Or She Could Prevent It?

What if a person had a friend whose electric and water were about to be turned off and their car was about to be repossessed and that person could prevent it and not miss the money would that person really be a friend if he or she refused?

[seabeyond]

24. what is you interpretation of not missing the $. i have family that feel that way about me.

i have plenty, so what is the problem me giving my money to them. they need it. i dont. seems fair.

how about, i dont spend my money. all the stuff they throw their money away on, i deny myself and my family and put the money in the banks sooooo.... IF there is illness i can pay for it. WHEN kids go to college i can pay for it. WHEN we retire, we can pay for it.

but as far as family see it is just extra money hanging around i dont need, wont miss. because they dont think of or save for the future, why should i.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. The elements

1)Not missing the money= a net wortb between $5,000,0000.00 -$10,000,000.00 or more

2) Dire sraights means losing health insurance despite having life threatening chronic conditions, being foreclosed on, having electric and water taken off, and car reposseses.

It would be as if I saw a homeless woman and child, which I have seen, and not giving them what change I had on my person.

[alphafemale]

31. "not miss the money."

That is very presumptutious. Your statements about this persons income and vacations seem steeped with a high degree of envy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Don't Like To Go On Vacations If I Can't Drive To My Destination

And if I made a lot of money I would give most of it away.


Respectfully, maybe I am missing something, but I wouldn't and haven't let a person go without food or shelter if I could do anything about it, much less a friend. To me being a liberal is about having empathy for folks in distress. If I turned a blind eye to a person in need what kind of person am I?


Also, I continually see the argument on this board that the wealthy should be taxed at 70% , 80%, or 90% or higher because "they can afford it".

Is that a form of envy too?

It's akin to the argument put forward by conservatives that liberals are generous to a fault with other people's money.

I have started threads to laud sports stars who dug into their pockets to help disaster victims and many of the responses here were were critical of them not giving enough.

[alphafemale]

39. It's not up to you to decide what another person does with the money...

You've arbitrarily decided they don't need.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I Have Seen DUERS

I have seen DUERS favor a income tax rate of 90% or higher.

Respectfully, are they doing what you decry?

[alphafemale]

57. The law would be the law

But any high tax rate on the rich is never going to happen, anyway.

Personally, I think a 90% tax rate would be exhorbinant, but there were many people who managed to stay and become fantastically wealthy inspite of it when that was the way things were.

But that would still be a "law." And not your personal opinion on how a person should spend the "money they don't need"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. Respectfully

I don't think a friend has a legal obligation to help a desperate friend just as I don't have a legal obligation to help a person who collapsed on the street but it would be nice if I and he both helped.

[alphafemale]

75. You see...the thing is

You aren't setting standards for yourself.

You are judging the actions of another. And although you may think you know all the circumstances behind why they are not giving their money away it is quite likely you don't.

[NashVegas]

88. You're Completely Missing The Point

They aren't friends. Not really.

Most people would - absolutely not - allow a genuine friend to go down the hole like that.

Most of us have "friends" where any real trust and giving in the relationship were long worn out before contact stopped.

[hippywife]

76. I don't read anything like that

in the OP's question. There is no ultimatum there.

[crispini]

6. Urgh. Money + friendship = bad idea.

Friend A is never obligated to give Friend B any of their money. Ever. Regardless of the circumstances. Which is what you seem to be talking about here -- Friend B seems to have some unwarranted expectations here. But how can anyone know what Friend A's true "ability" to give money away? What about Friend A's attitudes, hangups, issues around money themselves? How much money are we talking about anyway?

Now, as for myself, if I were in the situation where I needed money, I would ask, but without any expectations that I would receive, and without any consequences to the friendship were the other to decline. And if I were in the situation where I had money, depending on the amount, I might give, or I might not, but if I were to give, I would do so with the expectation that it would be a gift and I would not get any of it back. Because I have given people "loans" before and it has completely disappeared (along with the friendship) and so I no longer "trust" anyone to repay me large sums of money -- I can only offer someone what would be a gift, not a loan. And I can only give it in that spirit as well.

The expectation between friends that one owes the other one something in the way of money is entirely poisonous, however.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. What If You Stood Between A Friend And Homelessness And You Really Could Help?

We always accuse the Republicants, and with some justification, of being heartless but I don't think a Bush, a Palin, or a McCain would refuse to help in that scenario.

[mdmc]

7. Of course.

yes

[lunatica]

9. How someone uses their money is an extension of who they really are

I'm assuming that dire need means the person is in extreme distress and has no other recourse. Why would money be considered a different issue which shouldn't be related to who one claims they are? If someone can let someone they call a friend fall into dire straights without helping them then, no, they aren't a friend.

Philanthropists give money to charities to help people they don't even know and they don't expect anything back. They do it to make life better for others. They use their money as just another tool of who they are.

What one chooses to do is totally within themselves but it is a reflection of who they are. If they are greedy then their money will multiply their greed. If they're generous and want to help that too is reflective of who they really are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Yes

Those were the condirions:

1)I'm assuming that dire need means the person is in extreme distress and has no other recourse.

2)Any reasonable person would conclude the person was (able) to help; the person having a seven or more likely eight difit net worth.

[Dystopian]

15. Sweet.....

lunatica...Truth as I see it also.
Thank you for writing what I did not....
It's all a matter of perspective ....the reflection.



peace~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I'm Really Sursprised

I couldn't let a friend starve.

Heck, I have a negative net worth, can barely meet my own requirements, and still give money to the homeless.

[Dystopian]

19. I don't understand...

Why are you surprised...regarding my reply?
I'm perplexed...


peace~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Not Yours

-:)

I made the terms clear

Friend A is busted. He or she can't even pay for the necessities of life like water and electric.

Friend B is loaded by any reasonable definition of the term. We are talking about homes in Fort Myers, Bermuda, and Milan loaded.

Could Friend B really refuse to let Friend A go without water and electric and still be considered a friend?

[Dystopian]

21. : )

Got it..:hug:
I was agreeing with lunatica...how one uses money is a reflection of the inner self.
It would be heartless to let a friend go without these things.
It is a question of ethics....moral obligation...and love...
After all, it's only money to one, and survival for the other...
Turning one's back on a friend in need...cold and unfeeling.
Times are hard for many...and I know many who have little and yet still give from a shabby wallet with a heart of gold.


peace~

[pitohui]

35. i doubt friend b has a dime to spare, frankly

it sounds to me like friend b is in debt up to his eyeballs and probably steps away from bankruptcy himself

i know several folks who have declared bankruptcy recently who had 10 millions plus worth of properties -- of course, their mortgages were much more than the value of these properties once the crash came -- hence the bankruptcies -- at least one of t hose friends is himself homeless now and couch surfing until he can get some $$$ together -- which he's trying to EARN not beg from the rest of us, by the way

friend b may be keeping his head high and not sharing his problems with you but he's prob. only a step ahead of friend a and all the friend a's hitting up on him because he's (perceived to be) rich aren't helping matters any

i've been in situations where friend a's imagined i had all sorts of $$$ when, in reality, i had nothing but debts -- a NEGATIVE net worth

if friend a thinks i can take on a new monthly obligation -- his water and electric bill -- he needs to find another "friend" anyway -- just because i bave my pride and i don't put my business in the street and BEG for money like he does, it doesn't make me rich because i keep up appearances

i know from experience that when i'm homeless (and i have been) that nobody GIVES me anything because i just don't have it in me to beg, therefore i freely admit that i no longer respect people who ask me for a handout either, when i have, i'm expected to give to them, and when they have, they keep it in their pocket? right, that's not gonna work

most people with massive real estate holdings in multiple resort areas are in a WORLD of hurt this time of century

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. In My Scenario Friend B's NET WORTH Is Secure

They have a high net worth and net income and I think I know the difference.

But it's ok.

on edit -I would add that Friend B is a trial attorney, every bit as successful as John Edwards in the court, and has won several eight figure verdicts. At 40% -50% contingency that's a lot of money. This person isn't a real estate speculator.

I just think as a fundamental proposition if Friend A is desperate and Friend B can help him or her it's not unreasonable to expect if not hope Fiend B does so.

[Nikia]

11. We have given a few friends money in an emergency situation

They still continue to find themselves in these situations and are ask again, trying to make us feel like lousy friends when we don't help them out. Maybe our case is different than what you are referring to. I suppose that if someone makes under $10.00/hour and you give them money to have their car fixed or to prevent their water/electricity/telephone from being turned off that them needing money again is not unexpected.
Of course, maybe we weren't really "able". Is it right to ask one's friend to risk being unable to take care of one's own financial obligations in order to take care theirs? Maybe the first hundred dollars is only a minor hardship, preventing the friend from going on a weekend road trip vacation, but after that it gets to be a real hardship.
You might want to consider that the more well off friend has had experiences like that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. In This Situation The Person Vacations In The Isle Of Crete

And has a second home in Fort Myers, a third home in Bermuda, and a fourth home in Milan.

I concede that no one is entitled to the labor of another but when I give five dolllsrs to a homeless person I am more put out than such person giving a lot, lot, lot more.

[orleans]

40. a true friend will do whatever they can to help another friend

it's that simple.

[datasuspect]

16. just because you're someone's friend doesn't mean you are their bank

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Of Course Not

We are not talking about a loan to redo their kitchen but a loan to buy food, and pay the water and electric bill.


Would a friend let a friend go without electricity, water, and food?

[MiddleFingerMom]

25. The way you keep repeating and rephrasing and requalifying...

.
... the question seems to me that you're looking for some validation in
something much more personal than an academic inquiry.
.
If the person in need has had bad habits and has continued those bad
habits in spite of others' attempts to get them to do something otherwise,
and the "lendee" believes this is a case of "you're reaping what you've
sowed" or truly believes that NEXT month (and the next FIFTY months) are
going to remain the same despite the "help" they provide -- then I think
it's horrible to condemn someone for not giving money in that situation.
.
Before there are any kneejerk reactions, those "bad habits" mentioned
include giving too much of their income to churches and conservative
parties and issues, and living WELL beyond their means despite the
realization that they are digging themselves into a hole (eating at fine
restaurants often and buying designer clothing,etc. or $200/month cable
bills and/or phone bills or maintaining a car - or cars - when an
alternative - bicycle, public trans - is available and do-able but not
applied).
.
As well as the more traditional reasons of personal frailties/mistakes --
drug abuse or gambling, etc.
.
That said, personally I would keep a "friend" from becoming homeless or
malnourished.
.
But I would not ENABLE them to simply continue on a self-destructive
NOR a self-indulgent path without a limit to my help.
.
Easy for me to say right now -- I've been close to homeless/destitute for
awhile now and have been kept afloat (though still treading water) through
the kindness of a couple of friends. Call me Blanche Dubois -- 'cept it
ain't been strangers.
.
You also fail to mention whether the "well-off" friend has tried to counsel
the one in need without any success... NOR (and this is crucial) whether
said potential benefactor has already contributed to and fed what may be
a never-ending appetite.
.

[crispini]

51. ^^ This

I agree, the OP really seems to be fishing for some kind of validation here, like you expect us all to jump in and issue a blanket condemnation of the more well-off person in this scenario. And you're not getting it because, frankly, it seems a bit like you have an axe to grind, or some kind of agenda here.

In fact, we here don't really know everything about this situation. Is the well-off person in fact up to their eyeballs in debt? We don't know. Does the prospective beneficiary have some kind of other issues that we are not aware of? Again, we don't know. Does the well-off person have some issues with this friendship or some prior situation that would make them leery of lending money? Does the prospective beneficiary have a history of this kind of thing? There's just way too much here that is unknown, and it strikes me that you have some kind of bias in the situation.

If, as you posit, I was well-off Person A, who really did authentically have a lot of money, and a friend of mine had a need, an awful lot of it would depend on who the friend was and my actual relationship with them, as well as my feeling about who they are as a person. I have one friend who I would not lend money to and expect to get it back. I might give her some money as a gift, but it wouldn't be a lot, because I know I wouldn't be getting it back. This is a person who has longstanding issues with money and employment and they really need to figure some stuff out on their own rather than having me enable them. I have another friend who, frankly, I would give the shirt off my back and I know darn well she'd get it back to me or die trying because she is that type of person. It all depends.

[Lil Missy]

22. Friends are not obligated to loan money. Nor do they have to explain themselves.

[seabeyond]

23. over the decades, if i gave my money to every friend, true friend, that needed money and amount they

needed, i would be in the same place as my friends.

i have watched more friends and family make poor choices resulting in them needing my money. i dont get to make the choices for them to not be in that position.

[LeftyFingerPop]

26. Has the person in trouble asked their friend for a loan? n/t

[Dappleganger]

27. It's complicated.

If it's a real friendship on equal footing, where both contribute equally and act like adults, then I think that a real friend would give what they think they should give and the recipient wouldn't expect it.

However, if it's not an equal friendship then IMO that's not a real friendship, but a leeching situation. It will always be uncomfortable and IMO won't do either of them any real good.

A real friend doesn't just give money but tries to give you encouragement to help you get through hard times. They stand in your corner and help you see that there's going to be a new day tomorrow even when you can't see anything but the problems in your life. Now I've given money before when we were able, but it didn't help nearly as much as being there for my friend when times were tough and things look really bad.

However, I would *never* expect a friend to give me money nor would I judge our friendship based upon that. She may have obligations that I have no idea about and none of my business. She may even not be as well-off as she's led me to believe (it could all be based on credit). IMO it's really better to keep money out of friendships unless you're prepared to lose a friend.

[Haole Girl]

28. That's messed up

There are often many very good reasons a person doesn't give money away. And if that was/is the sole basis of a friendship, I feel sorry for both parties.

[LeftyFingerPop]

29. OK, I've been thinking about this for an hour, and I'm going to buck the trend...

My answer is: If a friend had to go without basic things like shelter and food, I would take care of that problem for them, at least on a temporary basis REGARDLESS of whether I was filthy rich or not.

Whether that means loaning them money, or having them move in with me, or whatever.

[seabeyond]

38. how many times would you do it for that same friend?

if it were ever a one time thing, but i have not found that it is ever a one time thing. so often i find this to be a lifestyle thing.

i think that is what we dont know about the friend in need. has this friend always lived this way. needing others to rescue them, or is this a one time thing. something unusual and circumstantial.

all the difference.

[LeftyFingerPop]

46. Well, it would depend on the situation...

First of all...I have very few friends. I consider a friend to be someone who would either help me out if I needed it or kick my ass if I was messing up.

And I would do the same for them.

That is what a "friend" is.

A friend is not an acquaintance, a friend is a friend.

I feel that a friend should be helped out by monetary means or "tough love", whatever is required.

Many people use the word "friend" too loosely.

If my friend had no money because he had a gambling addiction, I would not feed his jones, but I sure as hell would get him some help.

[pitohui]

33. the person who asked for the $ is no friend

everyone thinks i am "able" to give them a handout, and that they are in more need of my money than they are -- it's an amazing thing

as soon as someone just assumes i should be able to hand them money and they ask me for money, yes, the friendship is over

NOT because i'm not a friend but because they have made the decision that using me as their private bank is worth throwing away the friendship

i tried to help friends with money several times when i was younger, in EVERY case but one the person i helped both took the money and ended the friendship to avoid repaying the loan or seeing me again and having me ask about the money they owed -- in ONE case the person repaid the money after many years but he did it thru the mail and has never contacted me/seen me as a friend again -- the minute i gave an adult man money, apparently the friendship was killed because his pride was too hurt that he had to even ask

i am myself low income and have come to the conclusion that just because YOU think i am able to give you a handout, that doesn't mean i should give you a handout

the day you hit me up for money, and i'm not your parent, YOU made the decision to end the friendship, i can keep my money and you cut me off as a friend, or i can give you my money and you avoid me forever (until you want to hit me up for MORE money) but either way...the friendship is dead because of the beggar's actions

if you need money, offer to do a job for me that needs doing -- that HAS worked out for me, i've given friends a few bucks up to a few hundred bucks to do things around the house i can't do myself and that doesn't kill the friendship because there's a mutual benefit

but a "friend" giving another "friend" money...it can't work...friendship is based on equality and there is no equality once one person is giving handouts to a second person

[Orrex]

34. Your answer has nothing to do with the question

The question stipulates that the petitioned is actually financially able to lend the money.

Your answer is based on the petitioner's mistaken belief that the petitioned is so able.

[pitohui]

37. i am confident the person described has no money and is in fact deeply in debt

after reading the entire thread the friend b is said to have multiple homes in resort areas, it's pretty safe to say that the person is dead broke and "underwater"

i spend a lot of time in vegas and i know lots of friend b's w. multiple real estate properties, most of them have either already declared bankruptcy or in the process of restructing to try to save themselves, and we're talking people who owned $10 million worth of properties

it doesn't matter if you have $10 million worth of real estate if you owe $20 million on it

unless a person is TRULY rich they can't afford to take on a new monthly obligation, friend a needs to get off his own ass and find a way to earn/hustle money -- if he can't work and MUST beg, it's a shitty thing to beg/hustle friends -- a decent person begs/hustles STRANGERS rather than sacrificing a friendship to the hustle

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I'm Lost As

Again, one of the major criticiam of liberals by conservatives is that they are generous with other people's money. That's why Ruah is orgasmic when he can go through the tax returns of Democratic presidents and presidential candidates and show how little some give to charities. Some liberals would argue that they favor government action to help those in need and that can be accomplished by progressive taxation.

The principle behind progressive taxation is that the more you have the more you can give. But if you are saying a petitioner in dire staits or is it straights has no right to hope that his wealthy friend should come to his or her aid in their time of need why should strangers expect wealthierr strangers to share their wealth to help other strangers in the form of progressive taxation.

It does seem that many who are in favor of progressive taxation are not in the income brackets where its pinch will be felt.

[pitohui]

45. because taxes are not the same as giving $$$ to a hustler/beggar/ etc.

there is a HUGE difference between a rich person paying more taxes and the money goes back into society for such things as roads, health care, public defense, what have you

the irs knows i'm not actually rich, and the irs prob. also knows that your friend w. multiple houses is in debt up to his eyeballs -- we're taxed on our actual income NOT your fantasies about our income because we charged a vacation in crete (if it's as cheap as turkey WAY cheaper than staying home) -- therefore we are taxed on REALITIES about our income not on your FANTASIES abt our income

if you keep up a good friend and are perceived as well to do, as i am, and as your friend who's over invested in resort properties almost certainly is, there are always people who think we have money to give away, when in fact the money doesn't exist

i suspect you would be shocked if you knew yr friend's true net worth, you would be amazed to find out how much of what looks like rich is just an act

again, taxes are based on private real information, such as the persons 1099s showing they actually earned some money in the market or wherever

plus it's not someone personally working on me, trying to guilt me into giving them money -- when you talk abt friends hitting up friends for money, in that game, the friend who is best at ripping off/guilt-tripping lonely, older, or vulnerable people gets all the money -- and the decent person who is trying to lift themselves up and is too proud to ask for help gets NOTHING

going thru a central referee before the $ is redistributed means a better chance that the decent person in trouble will ALSO get help

going thru a "hit people up for loans" system means only the most aggressive and/or the most sociopathic gets the loan money -- people who can't/won't beg get nothing even though they might actually be more in need

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Again

I realize the difference between being well to do and being in debt up to your eyeballs.

But when a person advocates that persons in the higest tax brackets should be taxed at 90% that person is consciously or subconsciously deciding the rich don't need or don't deserve to keep most of their money.


I don't see how being in need makes one a sociopath. A sociopath is a person lacking in empathy.


It seems that some are arguing that the penalty for falling on bad luck is homelessness and starvation. I wouldn't expect it here. The argument is beyond a Republican one and border on Dickensian.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MiddleFingerMom]

53. and the answers don't say the person...

.
... DESERVES homelessness. It's whether or not a "friend" is the one
who should be/feel responsible. REGARDLESS of anything else.
.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. Respectfully

And I will try to use terminology you don't dislike.

If I had a friend and by friend I mean friend and not mere acquaintance and I knew I stood between him or her and homelessness and did nothing I couldn't live with myself, I just couldn't...

[seabeyond]

54. we want the safety net there. there will be those that abuse, but we are willing to accept that

to be able to take care of, help those that just need to be taken care of or helped.

the same would work in an individual situation which you ignore the people saying.

there will be those that we will willingly help and there will be those that we know are taking advantage or abusing the situation.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. We All Want Robust A Safety Net

I see folks here advocating a 90% top marginal rate or higher to provide for a robust safety net. I would think when you are advocating taking 90% of someone's income you are decidingng he or she doesn't realy need so much money.

How is that different than the position of Friend A? After all it's a friend and not a stranger and he or she's not looking for anywhere near the amount 90% of someone's income represents.

[seabeyond]

63. i see very few advocate 90% so i think the whole purpose of your post

is to credit du with this 90% tax on the wealthy and go from there, using this "friend" in need scenerio to get to your real agenda.

and i have already told you my views on a friend being obligated to give not needed money to a friend that needs the money.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Respectfully I Have No Agenda.

I have been accused in this thread of being envious of someone eles's money. That it was "presumptuous" of me to decide what somebody can and can't afford. How is that different than favoring high rates of taxation on the assumption or presumption that those that are being taxed highly can afford it. And I never said anybody is entitled to the fruit of another person's labor but it would be nice to help a legitimately helpless person in his or her time of need.

I don't know how I can say it more plainly. If I had a friend who was about to have his car repossessed, and his electric and water turned off and I did nothing I couldn't live with myself. I just couldn't.... I can't imagine being without water, electric, and a car.

I then see all kinds of assumptions made about the petitioner and the petitioned. That the petitioned is broke too and the person doing the petitioning is actually a professional beggar/hustler.

And all these facts that weren't in the original post. Friend A has worked all his life and has fallen on unbelievably hard times and Friend B is well off by any metric. I would add that Friend A and Friend B were more than mere acquaintances but people who shared each other's pain when they or their loved ones was sick and shared each other's joy on birthdays, holidays. weddings, and other special days.

I have no agenda. I am a simple man. I just believe we should take care of one another.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Respect Your Position

But frienship is built on common interest and caring about one another. I don't see how the concept of equality comes into it.

If I see a homeless person I give him or her what I can. I don't feel to soperior to him or her. I do thank God but for his grace go I.

[pitohui]

41. you don't see how the concept of equality comes into friendship?

really?

what common interest do i have in someone i don't consider my equal?

i'm not on equal footing with someone who asks me for money, i'm not on equal footing with someone i hustle for money -- it's an exploitative relationship NOT a friendship any longer

every friendship where someone asked me for money, the friendship was destroyed through the decision of the other person -- once they hustle me for money and i give it, they no longer "care" about me, how can they? they don't even respect me, i've become a job they have to kiss up to in order to keep the money flowing

money and caring don't mix unless it's your child and even an adult child who comes back to the well too much can destroy a family's caring

i've been homeless myself and i'll be honest, i don't really care whether or not you "feel" superior to me as a non-homeless person handing me $$$, the reality is that at that moment you are in a position of superior and i'm in a position of begging, i may appreciate the $$$ but do i really like or respect you? how can i? once i have enough $$$ to get away from you, i'd never want to see you again and be reminded of when i had to beg...to pretend there's any equality here just because of YOUR feelings is to ignore that the person getting the money also has feelings and that they're in a very vulnerable place

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. I Have Helped Friends In Their Time Of Need And They Are Still My Friends

I really don't understand the argument that once you helped someone monetarily they can no longer be your friend.

[pitohui]

48. because they never want to see you again, you may consider them your friend but you don't see them?

i don't consider someone who has disappeared from my life without a word to be a friend any longer and 90 percent of the time that is what happens once you loan/give someone money

the other 10 percent of the time they come back and try to extract even more money

yah, once you help someone with money they are no longer your friend because they don't want to be around you, it's pretty simple, they don't want to hear about that money they owe you or, if it was a gift, they have paranoia thinking you're talking to other friends behind their back about the money you gave them (which let's face it, you probably are!!!)

i realize there are people who think they are still friends w. people they haven't seen for 5 years but that's not a friendship, that's just a memory

maybe you helped someone out w. $10 so it doesn't matter, i helped people out w. amounts totally thousands, and you can't just GIVE that kind of money and still be a friend because they can't face you, it's too much

you're expecting one friend to take on a monthly obligation for another friend and, again, it's too much, there can't be respect where one friend has become a dependent

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I Don't Want To Badger You

But I have friends that fall into the scenario we discuss and they are still part of my life.

[Orrex]

77. No you don't

You have parasites and hucksters who've latched onto your good fortune with the selfish intention of draining you dry.

DON'T YOU GET IT?!?!?

[MiddleFingerMom]

55. pitohui... been there/done that...

.
... on BOTH sides of the equation. Borrowed money from someone
I adored (my godmother/cousin/mentor/friend/hero) and felt so
guilty over the time it took me to pay it back that I avoided
her rather than feel that guilt even more intensely face-to-face.
Never did pay it ALL back (directly to her), so... though I've
taken that kindness as an inspiration for my own small acts, I
still feel the guilt.
.
All the while knowing that she wouldn't WANT me to feel that way.
.
Also lent quite a sum of money to a good friend who had DRAGGED
himself up to a better life (worked two jobs and went to night
school for TWO years until the age of 23 while raising three
stepchildren), It was for the security deposit/rent of the
apartment in his new town and I knew enough about this man's
integrity and drive to know that his loss of contact with me was
from that same sort of guilt.
.
There's a GREAT passage about this in one of my favorite books,
Steinbeck's "Cannery Row" where, after Mack & they boys have
DESTROYED Doc's lab and equipment, Mack is remorseful and promises
to pay it all back. Doc, pretty wisely, counsels him NOT to worry
about it at all -- as it will make him miserable for 6 months to
a year... and then he'll just get over the misery without paying
back a cent. So there was no REASON for all the guilt in the first
place.
.
Wish I'da given my friend that same advice.
.
I miss him a helluva lot more than I do that cash.
.

[begin_within]

58. I don't think friendship is really about money.

It's possible some friendships could have enough trust built up that the friends could borrow money from each other, but it's not a necessary element of friendship.

[Quantess]

59. Yes. It is not your place to judge one friend for not giving money to another friend.

Shunning someone for not giving money to someone else would be really judgmental.

[LeftyFingerPop]

62. What good is having a friend if you can't judge their lifestyle...

and refuse them money when they are down and out because you would never make the same poor lifestyle choices that they have? :sarcasm:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. I Don't Know Where This Lifestyle Thing Is Coming From

The petitioners aren't gamblers, alchoholics, grifters, et cetera but hard working people who lost their source of income and are desperately trying to find new sources of income.

[LeftyFingerPop]

68. I am agreeing with you. Note the sarcasm smiley.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. I Know

Maybe I am naive, presumptuous, or something else.

But if a friend , not a mere acquaintance, is in a position to help another friend who finds himself or herself in a desperate situation and doesn't help I question the value of that person as a friend.

The proposition has been picked apart. But Friend A is broke, busted, penniless, selling off their possessions and possessions left to them by deceased parents to stay above water and Friend B is a multi-millionare and Friend B refuses to help I question the value of the friendship.

[Kaleva]

64. Yes. A true friend won't decide if another is "able" to give or not.

[LeftyFingerPop]

65. After reading this thread very carefully, I have concluded that...

Friends suck.

[MiddleFingerMom]

70. True. They ALL suck.

.
They all suck ANYONE BUT YOU!!!!
.
:cry: <---LeftyFingerPop ... ... ... Everybody else ---> :grouphug:
.
.
.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[LeftyFingerPop]

72. You are quite incorrect sir...

I have literally hundreds of best friends on Facebook that would kill for me, even though I have no idea who the fuck they are.

[undeterred]

71. If someone is in dire financial straits and needs help

to keep from being homeless and his friends decide to do nothing to help him, what kind of friendship is it going to be after that? Are they even friends to begin with?

I guess it depends what friendship means in the first place- and these are the situations where one finds out.

Oh, and if someone doesn't like hospitals and his friend is dying in a hospital, he don't have to go.

But if you aren't "there" for people when they are in need, don't expect anyone to be there for you either.

[dysfunctional press]

73. if the situation is truly dire- then no, i wouldn't still consider them a friend.

[Rabrrrrrr]

74. If one chooses not to help someone, should another friend get self-righteously poutraged about it?

And should that person drop the obnoxiously poutraged friend for shoving their nose in shit that isn't any of their business and which they never bothered to find out the real facts of, anyway?

Just curious what you think.

[elana i am]

78. rule #1

don't "lend" friends money. the fastest way to lose a friend is to loan them money. i learned this the hard way.

i might feel obligated to help family though. but even then i would not let that family member get access to the money. i would offer to pay the bills or buy the food, but i would not let them touch the money.

[riderinthestorm]

79. No, they aren't a friend anymore.

I've been in that place and have given to friends who are in desperate straits. That's what friends are for, imho. Sometimes I have it, sometimes they have it. Nobody has abused it so far and we're all still friends. The key is honesty in any relationship. If you don't think someone's got that level of honesty, get it in writing. Friends get that. Real friends at least.

If a friend came to me today needing $1000 - $2000 to stay in their place and regain their footing I'd do it in a minute. I would think they'd do the same. We aren't talking exorbitant amounts (heat, electricity, rent and a car payment maybe...? not much for a month's reprieve.) I've put friends up for a month or two who were desperate.

If the 7 figure "friend" can't cough up even that amt for a short term fix, they aren't your friend.

Now if this was a repetitive thing, and they came back for "more", that's when I'd call it quits. Then it becomes more than just a "friendly" bailout and morphs into leaching. But a one time thing: nah. thats what friends are for.

[Lyric]

80. If you're in truly DIRE financial straits and you have a wealthy friend

who's unwilling to lend a hand, then that person wasn't really a friend to begin with. People who have a true, caring friendship don't act that way toward one another. While it's unfair to expect or assume that someone else will bail you out of every problem you have, it's not unreasonable to expect a friend to help you in an true emergency. (Note: by true emergency, I mean a situation that's not morally-iffy. For example, if you're at risk of becoming homeless because of a job loss. I'm not talking about people who waste all their money on junk and then expect someone else to foot the bill. I mean an honest-to-god, sincere, morally-straightforward emergency.)

Friendship is a two-way street. For those who think it's wrong to expect financial help from a friend--it's at least AS wrong to refrain from helping when the need is dire and sincere, and you can do so without harm to yourself or your family. The giving, sharing nature of a real friendship would preclude that kind of hard-heartedness.

[Duer 157099]

81. No. A friend in need is a friend indeed.

Substitute the word "money" for "food" and see how many posts here still sound "friendly".

If you were starving and you had a "friend" with substantial means who refused to feed you... fuck them, they are NOT your friend.

To me it's very clear.

[LibDemAlways]

82. If someone is well off and won't help out a

"friend" who is in dire financial straits, there is no friendship there. I've had "friends" who didn't lend me moral support when I needed it either.

If you want to find out who your friends are, wait until a situation arises when you need them. You'll learn very quickly who has your back - and who doesn't.

[LibDemAlways]

83. Self delete. Dupe.

[Skittles]

84. if someone needs money I give it to them if I am able

it's a loan but I fully understand there is a chance I won't be paid back - I find out if THEY are my friend if they fail to pay me back when they are able - I guess I've been wise because people do pay me back

on edit - on a few occasions I have given money as a gift to someone struggling financially because, well, it was the right thing to do - even the gal who swooned that it was a "gift from God" - uh,no, honey, it was a gift from ME

[Deep13]

85. Can't answer without the specific facts. nt

[Inchworm]

86. Yup

I guess. Friends to me are few and far between. I would most likely just say something to friend about it if we were the type friends that spoke of finances together. Other than that I'd probably stay out of it all together.

:hi:

[dugaresa]

87. none of my friends has ever asked me for money, however relatives have

and for many years I helped them until I found that they took my help and then shit on my head or talked about me in a discourteous manner. I never asked for money back or for anything in return but their resentment of my help and then rude behavior taught me a lesson.

money does ruin relationships.

if a very good friend needed help, i would help but i am cautious.