Libertarians....

[unpossibles]

sigh.

I just want to half smile and touch their shoulder and "bless their hearts".... But after hearing the same oversimplified arguments from my dad for the past couple of decades, I just have no patience for them any more, and this HCR bill has brought them out in spades on facebook and elsewhere.

Do they not realize they are tools... of the GOP? Don't get me wrong; I am quite small-l libertarian when it comes to personal freedoms which don't infringe anyone else's rights. I think most "morality" laws are flawed, even if good intended. But... whew.

Sorry, I needed to come here and decompress for a second. It's always about the money with them, and of course they all seem to come from middle-class (or better) families where they had a lot more opportunity than their "bootstrapping" bravado admits. And they never seem to appreciate the role of chance in all of our lives, that there are literally millions of smart, talented, hard working people with good ideas who don't have that one lucky connection with someone who may have a connection which allows them to "make it."

There are millions of hard working people who get laid off, or have gone bankrupt from medical bills (I know some personally) despite having insurance.

ok, to bed to read a book (or my "analog reading device" as I sometimes jokingly call it). Good night, lounge.

[Odin2005]

1. I get the feeling that most of them seem to be very "concrete" thinkers, and...

...can't comprehend the inherent complexities and abstract links of human societies. Most of the rest are simply ardent Social Darwinists and self-centered whiners that project their laziness on everyone else.

[unpossibles]

2. yes. Or they embody idea of someone being born on third base

and thinking they hit a homer, if I may paraphrase Ann Richards.

It's not uncommon for someone who makes money to give themselves all of the credit for where they are, totally discounting not only any family support, but also social connections and even a lot of chance. Even more so, they ignore the idea that without the society they refuse to chip in on, they would not be able to become successful in the first place. Good luck becoming a tycoon without roads, shipping, a postal service, and a relatively stable economy as well as a labor and consumer class.

It just boils down to greed, in my opinion. They think it's criminal to have to pay taxes, even if it doesn't exactly make it impossible for them to live well on the remainder. I just have little patience for that attitude, as well as the mistaken belief that private companies are somehow inherently more trustworthy, efficient, and capable. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't.

[Deep13]

15. +1

[Orrex]

3. I like when they co-opt all of history's great leaders

Jefferson, Madison, and Washington are some of their favorite post mortem converts. And big-L Libertarians endlessly claim that they support true small-l liberalism, in a half-baked effort to lay claim to the best of Liberal thinking, too.

[MiddleFingerMom]

4. I've found them to be -- in general --

.
...nicer than those who self-identify as Republicans
or "conservatives"... but their self-centered mantras of "ME-ME-ME"
are cranked up not only to 11... but 12.
.
One of my all-time favorite lines?
.
"You have all the ego-centrism of a two-year-old."
.
Most don't quite get that and cautiously thank me for the "compliment".
.

[Orrex]

5. That surprises me, to be honest

I've never met a Libertarian who wasn't, ultimately, a smug, self-righteous, and self-congratulatory asshole, every bit as bad as far-right Republicans, with maybe a slightly less aggressive fetish for militarism.

I've heard that "left" Libertarians are better able to interact with humans, and I guess that's possible, but the idea of a "left" Libertarian strikes me as analogous to a square circle.

[Odin2005]

6. hey, this Left-Libertarian resents that remark!!!

We're Anarchist-Lite, not ego-centric Corporate suck-ups like the Right-Libertards.

[Orrex]

7. Well, let me ask you this...

Have you ever voted for a Libertarian candidate in a non-local election?

Would you ever attend the Libertarians' national convention? And if you went to the convention, would there be anyone else there for you to talk to?

[Odin2005]

8. No, the Libertarian Party are Right-Libertarians.

Not for me. :)

[Orrex]

12. In that case, why do you self-identify as Libertarian

Instead of, say, a Liberal?

[Odin2005]

14. American Liberalism encompases Left-Libertarianism.

So there is really no contradiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

Left-libertarianism (sometimes synonymous with left-wing libertarianism and libertarian socialism<1><2>) is a term that has been used to describe several different libertarian political movements and theorists.

Left-libertarianism, as defended by contemporary theorists such as Peter Vallentyne, Hillel Steiner, and Michael Otsuka, is a doctrine that has a strong commitment to personal liberty and has an egalitarian view concerning natural resources, believing that it is illegitimate for anyone to claim private ownership of resources to the detriment of others.<3><4> Some left-libertarians of this type support some form of income redistribution on the grounds of a claim by each individual to be entitled to an equal share of natural resources.<4> Social anarchists, including Murray Bookchin<5>, anarcho-communists<6> such as Peter Kropotkin and anarcho-collectivists such as Mikhail Bakunin, are sometimes called left-libertarian.<7> Noam Chomsky also refers to himself as a left libertarian.<8> The term is sometimes used synonymously with libertarian socialism<9> Left libertarian parties share with "traditional socialism a distrust of the market, of private investment, and of the achievement ethic, and a commitment to expansion of the welfare state."<10> It has also been used in self-description by geoists who support individuals paying rent to the community for the use of land.

In contrast, right libertarianism holds that there are no fair share constraints on use or appropriation.<11> Radical right libertarians hold that individuals have the power to appropriate unowned things by claiming them (usually by mixing their labor with them), and deny any other conditions or considerations are relevant. Thus they believe there is no justification for the state to redistribute resources to the needy or to overcome market failures.<12>

[Orrex]

17. ...

Well, all right.

Then Left-Libertarianism isn't really Libertarianism at all, at least not at all like the current Randian/Bootstrap version of Libertarianism.

Rhetorically, it seems very similar to the way standard Libertarians identify themselves as adhering to "true" liberalism, when in fact their current incarnation is nothing of the sort.

[Odin2005]

18. Actually, Libertarianism originally refered to Anarchism in the broadest sense.

It still does in Europe. Here in the US the term got hijacked.

[Orrex]

19. Sure, and "fascinate" used to refer to enchanting someone with a phallic amulet

There's no value in clinging to archaic usages of words when those words have evolved or been co-opted into something very different.

You'd be better off identifying yourself as a Liberal and then maybe highlighting what's unique about your views, rather than risking the unintended implication of a philosophical alliance with Harry Browne et al.

[Odin2005]

20. Well, I consider myself a Liberal, a Socialist, and a Left-Libertarian depending on context.

[ashling]

24. I respect your right to call yourself whatever you want to, but

Modern American Liberalism and Libertarianism have little, if anything in common.

And the political science professor in me is tempted to add: "But then if you are going to cite Wilipedia as a source, then I guess you'll believe anything," but I won't. I will, however suggest that you take it with a grain of salt and do some further research.

True, Classical liberalism includes variants of Libertarianism, but modern American Liberalism is anything but

Modern American Liberalism owes more to Mill, Kant, et al. Your quote does not mention John Rawls, one of the foremost liberal social contract theorists of the 20th Century. His Theory of Justice includes a strong strain of distributive justice - to which, I might add, Classical Libertarian "thinkers" are considerably opposed.

[Happyhippychick]

9. I find them to be black and white thinkers and proud of that.

I don't find that anything to be proud of but that's why I'm not a libertarian.

[MajorChode]

10. Libertarians are anarchists that lack committment

[Ikonoklast]

11. Libertarians want the benefits of government without the responsibilities of citizenship.

You need you to keep paying taxes so they can derive benefit thereof.

They want all the heavy lifting done for them, for free.

[SKKY]

13. Are one step away from Fascists...

...just sayin'.

[hunter]

16. I think a Libertarian Society would look a lot like a grizzly bear society...

... with about the same level of technology.

Get the hell away from me and catch your own salmon. This is MY spot.

But the actual grizzly bears would own all the best spots, leaving the not-so-good spots for the Libertarian humans. At most they might share the fish they caught in return for sex. And it would be the woman catching the fish. The men would mostly be wandering around naked in the forest eating grubs and waving their dicks at one another.

Sophisticated human societies are always socialist even those that refuse the label.

[unpossibles]

21. Yeah, they seem to be incapable of grasping a very simple concept

that nature abhors a vacuum. Basically they have this complete fantasy utopia dream where they're all rugged individuals unhampered by government (ie: taxes) thus will be filthy rich somehow. I'm not sure how in their world there still won't be others doing the old might-makes-right BS to them, except this time it will be a private entity and they'll have no form of redress.

It also kills me when they say things about how politics are corrupt without looking at the source of that corruption, and why (hint: companies that want favorable legislation so they can get away with what they want). They never seem to realize that they are attacking the symptom not the problem. It's like deciding to stop crime by banning all locks.

[TK421]

22. A good friend of mine is one...we don't allow politics to get in the way of things

he is more concerned with gun rights and marijuana legalization...and little to no government involvement in his everyday life. Not a selfish person in the least, in fact he helped me out when I was in trouble and I did the same for him when he fell on hard times; I have considered him a friend ever since.

It seems to me that many people think Libertarians and Republicans are about the same, but listening to each speak I have to disagree on that

edited to add: The Repub comparison concerning their social outlook

[unpossibles]

28. This would be more true were it not for the massive wave of

Republicans who are secretly ashamed of being called Republicans and now claim to be Independent or Libertarian despite their philosophy or voting.

[Yavin4]

23. They Love To Crow About How They Took Risks and That's How They Made It

When the truth is, the risk that they were taking is minimal because they had families or someone else that they could use as a backup.

[Orrex]

25. But if you tell them that, they have a long list of rationalizations about why that isn't the case.

One of their favorite mantras is "there's no such thing as society."

Of course, they employ language, and they use currency, and they wear clothes, so presumably there's only "no such thing as society" when it's convenient for them to think so.

[unpossibles]

29. right. As well as the fact that a strong social safety net

encourages entrepreneurial risk, in my opinion. Who is more likely to attempt to create their own business, someone who knows that even if it fails they may be able to literally survive, or the person who may end up dying of hunger on the street?

Seriously.

I also notice a strong lack of Libertarians who grew up being actually poor. Most started out at least being middle class if not upper middle class, which does allow one a LOT more opportunities from education to job & family connections, as well as the more obvious financial support. Hell, one or two I know come from Air Force families, but "made it on their own" despite essentially living on tax payer money.

As a contrast, a good friend of mine who did grow up poor - so poor the other kids in the trailer park were not allowed to play with him because he lived in a small camper - and who has a very successful business is one of the most liberal people I know. Why? Because he recognizes that in addition to his own hard work and intelligence he had the help of a society, not only the programs his mom used but also the infrastructure, etc.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

26. All you needed to say was "Libertarians...sigh"

I cannot stand libertarians. Cannot stand them.

People do not live in bubbles. Wake up.

[CBGLuthier]

27. When I was 12 I thought anarchy would work.

Then I grew up.

Libertarians are children who still think all people are basically good and will do the right things.

Any rational adult knows that is nonsense.

[mcollins]

30. Libertarians and the Religous

are not into heavy thinking.