Something learned about people that lie.

[RandomThoughts]

I have discovered that liars continue to lie when they know they are wrong.

And blame other people for what they do. While smearing them to hide what they do.


I think the actions of lying is part of secrecy. I used to think secrecy was part of lying.


I think lying is for someone to hide from themselves and others, even to the point of falsehoods about other people.

I think it makes more sense that darkness is what is wrong with some people, even more then deception.

Secrecy is the problem, lying is their method or their symptom and something they do to try and hide.

[Kali]

1. pretty good observation

but I think some people just can't help it, some people even lie to themselves

[RandomThoughts]

3. Yes, some people do.

But if a person is open and honest that would be seen.

For instance, I try to express my thoughts. That keeps me from lying to myself or others, since if I did, it would be seen.

While most that lie like to talk about other people, and point out there faults.



So the hierarchy of bad would be.

darkness/secrecy
deception
smears
gossip
judgment
self righteousness.

not 100% sure on that, but seems to be the order of it.

[flvegan]

2. This is about Batman, isn't it.

[seabeyond]

4. lol lol ... geez. nt

[seabeyond]

5. i have a brother that lies. has always. outrageous, unbelievable lies.

to the point that i don't believe anything he says, ever.

i asked him a couple years ago, why? why do you lie? i know you are lying. you know i know you are lying. and you continue to lie as i am telling you i dont believe you

he says

so i don't have to hear a lecture.

i dont get that. he is listening to me tell him i dont believe him.

i dont get lying. i see no reason now. when i was little it was to get out of trouble. now? nothing is a big deal adn there isnt any reward in lying.

he lies so he can hide self. so yes, i will agree with you. though he isnt hidden, HE feels like he is.

[RandomThoughts]

8. Good point. Or he knows people knows he lies and he does not care.

Why is that I wonder.

Something to think about, the types, some might think nobody notices, some my not care if they do, thinking what they think they get from those they fool is worth it.

[seabeyond]

11. my oldest brother and i have this exact conversation.

we had parents that did not lie. my oldest brother and i never tended to. then we see this brother and it is so curious. oldest brothers daughter lies, so we talk about it. he is concerned she will be like other brother.

an inability for ownership

both brother and niece tend to blaming others.

i am going to go in a totally different direction. vulnerability. i never allowed myself to be vulnerable, in any situation, in any circumstance. i hated the feeling of vulnerability and refused to be a part of it .... ever.

i got married. and in that relationship, seeing how connection to another worked, and working so hard not to be vulnerable, i realized how much i deprived mate of a connection. and that instinctively, that is so wrong, in a connected relationship. so a couple years into marriage and a spiritual journey, i started allowing self to be vulnerable. i would put it out there. what was in heart, i would give, for the person to do with it what they chose.

what i learned, .... by putting it out there, i was no longer vulnerable. i was not protecting anything so vulnerability no longer existed. once i gave the power to the other, to do with as he chose, it was no longer mine, but his. if he abused, was about him. if he cherished, was about him. was not about me. and i was not vulnerable

i learned that the uncomfortable feeling with vulnerability was someone finding out what i was protecting and me working so hard to hide it. not the actual perceived vulnerability

so.... back to inability to own. once a person has ownership, they would see how freeing it is because one no longer has to go against, fight, hide, protect, from universal truth.


maybe be more than du wants. i generally dont talk this stuff on du. but... a piece of this will help my oldest brother in understanding his daughter better, i think. so thanks

[elleng]

18. sociopaths

among other features,

Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

[seabeyond]

20. wow

all these years, and i never even considered.

that really is a wow for me, elleng. my brother hits about all of it. i knew it was something. his highs and lows, i gave him bi polar but could never get him to see a doctor.

[elleng]

33. Friend suggested this of my 'husb,' with whom I'm in legal dispute.

I had a HUGE WOW, seabe, and actually helped me stop taking anti-depression meds, as in, 'Oh, so THAT's what's had me so down all these years!'

[seabeyond]

34. another wow, lol

the thing, we have none of this anywhere in my family. i would not have even thought of this. and it is so right on. i guess i have never read a description of sociopath, but now that i have, i recognize in those people that leave me stumped. so THAT is what it is. not that i experience a lot, but i can see a poster or two, too. lol

and good, it does change perspective in how one see the relationship over so many years. it really does. i am glad this put it into a good place for you. i can see how it did.

[elleng]

37. Better place, seabe, but still 'fighting' in or out of court, trying to obtain my 'due.'

and he lies to our children, young adults now, who think he's just dandy, and don't know which one of us is telling them the truth about things, so I'm always under a shadow.

[seabeyond]

38. ah...

that is too bad. a peace getting it done with.... but i am sorry for your kids.

you

you will be fine. better. better than fine, lol.

[seabeyond]

36. i just started reading. but this is interesting

Yes, that's part of it. But there are other factors. Some of these are not yet known, but it is known that starting in infancy, some babies begin to develop neurologically in a very abnormal manner. First off, whereas most people have specific areas in one or the other hemisphere of the brain that handle various tasks, the sociopath has them scattered randomly in both hemispheres, so that memory and information are broken into small pieces; this is why their speech is often wildly contradictory. And even worse, the areas of the cerebral cortex that normally handle emotional information do not work at all, for reasons unknown, so they never develop at all, remaining as they were in infancy. Other areas process this information but in such a different way that it is incomprehensible to people who are not sociopaths, and vice-versa. The actual structure of the brain can be lopsided. Overall, it is believed that the condition is congenital but that extremely intensive therapy of an entirely different sort than usual and starting in childhood can at least keep the sociopath from causing massive damage to other people, and possibly even alleviate some of his/her own misery.

[pitohui]

22. if you don't get lying don't be in sales don't play poker don't be a grown up

lying evolved as a strategy because there are lots of places where the liar wins

now if the guy can't lie in the right spot, ok, it's too bad so sad but every salesperson you know is a liar and proud of it, that's what feeds their kids

animals lie, a freaking bird will give an alarm call that he sees a hawk so he can swoop down and steal the goodie -- LIES FEED OUR CHILDREN, lies evolved for a reason

if you don't "get" lies you have a very big hole in your understanding of life which you need to fix

YOU don't have to lie as part of your strategy but if you don't "get" lying, you are operating at a pathetic level of "intelligence" in fact, someone who can't lie is autistic/stupid -- again "can't" lie is different from "i don't choose to soil myself by lying," if you are extremely intelligent you can take that path

but for most people it would be truly stupid not to understand how and be willing to use the strategic lie

[seabeyond]

31. you are off a tad... most people, most all people

are not nearly as good at lying as they think they are. if a person is reasonably perceptive, the liar is obvious. i am not shy at calling someone out on a lie. what i dont get is the person that continues to lie when obviously they are not believed.

why people lie is pretty simple. though no, .... there is no reason what so ever for me to lie. not one reason. thru out life i have done well, and NOT lying has served me well. i have never found an instance where lying would have been more beneficial to me than telling the truth. i have always been rewarded when in a situation i balance a lie or truth and chose truth and it has worked out for me everytime.

you can not tell me, that people must lie to win or survive. that simply is not the truth. i know. i dont lie and have always been successful. where as, there is an inherent risk with a lie, there is none with truth.

nah, thinking, i totally disagree with your post. further, i would guess it is the liar that tells themselves this garbage in order to justify within themselves, lies. in essence, lying to themselves.

i know too many people that dont lie and are happier for it. many people can make it thru life without.

[Dystopian]

6. You've known the liar, as have I

Yet the liar is so into himself he doesn't know how simplistic he is, although boasting of I.Q.
Yes, the liar will blame others for being deceitful ...for simply checking into his lies simply because he is suspect.
The liar holds many deep secrets.
But the liar is not clever enough to disguise himself in the world of cyberland.
There are little footprints he forgets to cover.
This is because the liar knows he is better than others.
The liar will go on lying.
I've met him. I smoked weed with him and had too many beers.
I know him well.
P.O.F.

He was at least tolerable until the glass crash.
Then I packed my belongings and shot the tracks.

We should only lie in bed.
Good luck, Liar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7jedt8MUjI&feature=fvw

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=9298376

Thank you, Random Thoughts....

peace~

[RandomThoughts]

9. The lie in bed thing I noticed also.

It is in many songs, Breathe, Time after Time, and many others. That is a contextual thing.

Some of them are lion in bed also, so there is always that, you can notice the mane at that point in the video for breathe. I like that context in that song.


Personally I very rarely lie any more, it is an odd thing, started way back when I was in management at grocery store, and I was disgusted with brown nosers and people that made excuses.

I found that many people lie not just to cover their faults, but to cover other peoples faults for self gain also.


For instance, I have some thoughts about some people I try not to express, because I know they are not best, and I try to find the best in people, even though things can be seen a different way. So in that is it lying? Or is it finding a way to choose to see things, and with including that people can see it differently and that it is a choice, it does not seem to be lying. I thought on that for awhile. However people might think you are saying that is the only way to see something, which would be lying. Hence telling someone what to think on a topic with many thoughts, is not the best idea. Really lots of thoughts on that topic.

In each case something could be seen another way, instead of lieing about something. However there are many people that probably think I lie also, so much of it is what the person already believes. I noticed that.

So if someone likes to think of Breathe song as lieing as in laying down, that is there choice, if they want to think of it as deception, that is also their choice. I like to see it as lion in bed, and if I express that it is not a lie, because I explain it as a choice of how I like to see it. I thought for a long time on that, when finding things the way I like to see them and sharing those ideas.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. My dear RandomThoughts...

How right you are. I knew a liar once. He behaved just as you've described it here. He did much harm.

[rrneck]

10. The best liars believe their own lies.

The most insidious lies are lies of omission.

Liars hide the truth from themselves, so your observation regarding secrecy is quite correct.

The worst secrets are those we keep from ourselves.

[pitohui]

23. no the best liars DON'T believe their own lies

this is one of those old wives tales that is supposed to i don't know...control our behavior or something i guess

the BEST liar can stand apart from himself, tell the lie, understood that when he has lied and his bluff is called, shrug and go on to the next mark

the amateur liar gets his ego invested, believes his own shit, and when his bluff is called, gets all huffed and pays off because he can't back down from the lie -- the liar who believes his own crap JUST CAN'T WIN

as a poker player i make lots of money from the man who believes his own lies...as i said yesterday to the dude who KNEW i was lying so forgot HE TOO was lying and called my bluff (and i beat him with my little bit of nothing) "yes honey i bluff a lot but you still have to have a bluff catcher"

the BEST liar is game theory optimal, and he KNOWS when he is lying and he KNOWS when you are lying but YOU don't know when he is lying...

people are making money doing this and not because they believe their own lies but because they get others to believe their own lies...

[rrneck]

27. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_acting
Method acting is a phrase that loosely refers to a family of techniques by which actors try to create in themselves the thoughts and emotions of their characters in an effort to develop lifelike performances. It can be contrasted with more classical forms of acting, in which actors simulate thoughts and emotions through external means, such as vocal intonation or facial expression. Though not all Method actors use the same approach, the "method" in Method acting usually refers to the practice, advocated by Lee Strasberg, by which actors draw upon their own emotions and memories in their portrayals, aided by a set of exercises and practices including sense memory and affective memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presdigitation

Presdigitation
The guiding principle of sleight-of-hand, articulated by legendary close-up magician Dai Vernon, is "be natural." A well-performed sleight looks like an ordinary, natural and completely innocent gesture, change in hand position or body posture.

It is commonly believed that sleight of hand works because “the hand is quicker than the eye” but this is usually not the case. In addition to manual dexterity, sleight of hand depends on the use of psychology, misdirection, and natural choreography in accomplishing a magical effect. Misdirection is perhaps the most important component of the art of sleight of hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie_of_omission#Types_of_lie

Lie of Omission
One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions.

Only an amateur actually dispenses false information. Persuading people to make up their own lies takes skill.

[KurtNYC]

12. most secrets cannot exist without a lie to cover them

there are those who lie out of habit but most lies are used with the purpose of hiding something

[The Midway Rebel]

13. This thread needs some music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLAaFkSo9kM&feature=related

Sex Pistols - "Liar"

[Heidi]

14. Described in this context, it's easier to have compassion for those who lie.

You have an enormous heart, RT. :hug:

[applegrove]

15. I've certainly known people who lie. They do it for a variety of reasons. One of which is when

a psychopath changes their thinking....like many brownshirts they end up being hypocrites. Think of all the lies the teapartiers repeat and repeat to each other and the world...Obama is a muslim blah blah blah. Others lie because they are say 'controlling and agressive' when you lived with them and they want to hide this issue and use the euphanism "nurturing" to describe themselves which can be a kind of delusion. Someone like the latter is hiding from themselves because they are afraid and they are not necessarily evil. The former people who are lying are acting evil though they may not be. The psychopath..well that is true evil. Me I can lie to myself about how okay/safe I am or how well things are going in my life. I'm a pollyanna.

[Generic Brad]

16. You just described my family

They have told so many falsehoods about me I can't begin to find a place to forgive or forget.

[elleng]

17. You just described a member of my family, ;-( and you are right.

[MrScorpio]

19. "A lie goes round the world before the truth has put his boots on."

Terry Pratchett

[pitohui]

24. ffs mr. scorpio you are an educated man WINSTON CHURCHILL

holy freaking creep on a crutch don't get me started

terry pratchett my ass

[MrScorpio]

25. I never read Pratchett

But I remembered the quote and Googled it.

Yep, I'm using the evil Google... Wooooooo

[pitohui]

26. well i didn't google it but if you did google is wrong , man

trust me on this or if you like i'll research it for in the morning, send me a PM to remind me...but winston churchill was around way before pratchett

[MrScorpio]

28. I see now

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on"

Churchill

And that Pratchett quote came out of one of his books.

Let's give Winston first dibs.

[pitohui]

21. wow what was yr first clue?

"have discovered that liars continue to lie when they know they are wrong."

if that is a late breaking news item for you bless yr heart you must be abt 6 yrs old

yes liars lie that's sort of what they do

do you blame an acorn for becoming an oak tree? or a filly for becoming a mare?

[seabeyond]

32. you are obviously into, i mean really into the lying thing. the point of proud from how it sounds

so

why does the liar lie when the person obviously knows you are lying. you know the person knows you are lying. and i know you know i know you are lying.

and no lying please.

[cwydro]

29. I think someone said upthread that the worst liars even lie to

themselves.

But I think those are the best liars...because they believe it.

It is truly scary if you are one of those who believed them at one point...and sometimes still want to believe them even when you know you shouldn't.

[Skip Intro]

30. I cannot stand lies. Cannot stand people who lie to me. Cannot stand them.

Ended a few friendships over this, very recently.

[Maraya1969]

35. And a lot of them don't deep clean their houses.

They won't get in under things and move things to see the dirt in their house like they wont look under their feelings and actions to try and "clean up mentally".

This may or may not be true and their are plenty of reasons to not deep clean. And my house is very cluster-fucked most of the time and I'm sure that means something about my nature but when I get to sick of looking at it all I clean like Mr. Monk.

My 2 cents.

[Swede]

39. Everyone lies.

Some more than others.

from the article: Advanced: Lies a Part of Human Nature

Psychologist Paul Ekman offers a number of basic reasons for lying. We lie to escape punishment, to elude uncomfortable social situations, to give ourselves an ego boost, to receive a reward, to protect someone, or to control the flow of information. A large exaggeration, a fib, and everything in between, falls into one of these categories.

Despite the fact that lying is ingrained in our psyche, we can only catch a lie about fifty percent of the time. It's almost as if we don't want to know that another person isn't being honest. Lies, some experts argue, are the glue which holds society together.

http://www.headsupenglish.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=229&Itemid=29

[bikebloke]

40. I have a sibling who's lifetime liar.

Her parents thought it was cute (Little girls are good. Little boys are bad.). Even her thefts were cute. So she was never disciplined. My father said he hated speaking with her as an adult, because of lying for no reason. Yet, he continued acting as her free ATM. I'm pretty sure the sociopathy is passed along the maternal line. Her mother and grandmother were the same. So I guess it's safe for me to have children - not that I see it happening.

[elleng]

41. Interesting your suggesting sociopathy passed along maternal line!

As discussed above, 'husb' is one. His mother was a DOOZY! (But he was adopted, so I guess I don't really know his 'Mother,' just his adopted doozy.)

[Jade Fox]

42. My immediate supervisor at work....

lies whenever he's backed into a corner and feels the need to protect himself. Usually his lies are so lame they can been seen through right away, and most of his lies are revealed pretty quickly. He also regularly employs the tactics you describe in the second line of your post. Still, the boss defends him.

This man is a big fundamentalist Christian, which makes his behavior particularly maddening.