Okay, shadetree mechanics, I'm on the prowl for some advice

[krispos42]

My brother's car died yesterday on the way to work... it's a '98 Mystique with I think about 140k on it. 2.0L I-4, 4-speed automatic.

He was about halfway through the 20-mile drive from his apartment to his work when all of a sudden his engine just died. He managed to pull over safely (city streets) and tried to start the car again. No luck... engine won't even turn over. So he calls AAA, then calls me. Fortunately, he'd broken down only about 1.5 miles from the house, so I hustled over there to see if I could give him a hand before the hook arrived.

I popped the hood and had him hit the ignition. I could hear the starter whirring, but the engine did not move an iota, not a single second of a single degree of rotation of the crankshaft. I had him try a couple of more times, each time all we got was the starter whirring down in the engine bay someplace. So that means the starter isn't engaging the flywheel anymore, i.e., time for a new starter.

I brought out the owner's manual and checked the interior and exterior fuse boxes, inspecting all the fuses that might have something to do with sudden engine or starter failure: ignition, computer, starter, etc. All were fine. I also pulled out the related relays and looked and smelled for burning plastic. No obvious signs of failure.


I don't have a good reason why the engine would just cut off like that. My brother swears the car was working just fine... no catastrophic noise or performance loss before it bit the big one.


My operating hypothesis is this: when he started the car that morning before he left for work, the starter failed to dis-engage from the engine's flywheel, thus dragging continuously on the engine and being over-revved as my brother drove around town. This would explain the starter failing 15 minutes later.

I tentatively put before the Lounge the idea that the over-revving of the starter may have also transformed the starter from an electric motor to an electric generator and overloaded/damaged the electrical system. However, it seems to me that by turning the key from "Start" to "Run" after the engine caught that morning, the electrical system would have been isolated from the over-revving generator.

Anybody have any ideas on this? Advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Lasher]

1. Were the headlights going dim just before the engine died?

If so, might be the alternator. If it quit working the engine would have run for awhile by getting its ignition spark from the battery. The starter whirring might be a symptom of a run down battery. See if the car will start if you hook up jumper cables.

[krispos42]

4. It was daytime, so the lights weren't on

Also, he had the alternator and battery replaced not too long ago... maybe a year ago or so? However, if the alternator was maybe a rebuild... or the voltage regulator is shot... that might be a factor.

However, that's something I didn't think of and is relatively simple to test. If only I had a voltmeter someplace!

I used to have one I made from Radio Shack parts when I worked there. a 0-15VDC meter in a hobby box with a cigarette lighter cord attached to it. Just plug it in and instant volt reading.

I just can't find the damn thing since I moved here!


Anyway, that's a really good suggestion and I'll check it today. I have jumper cables in the garage.


Thanks, man! :fistbump:

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. I can't address why the engine stopped running...

On every engine I've encountered in a car, the starter turns the flywheel, which is on the back of the engine, in front of the transmission.

I've had cars that had "flat spots" on the flywheel, where teeth were missing or worn. If the engine comes to a stop with the flat spot in front of the starter gear, no amount of turning the key makes a difference. Turn the key and the starter just whirrs... I've had to take a big socket and turn the crankshaft a few degrees to get good teeth on the flywheel in front of the starter with cars that had automatic transmissions, or push the car a few feet while in gear on cars with manual transmissions to get the crankshaft (and thus the flywheel) to turn.

I've also had a situation where the starter motor itself was loose, and when the solenoid pushed the starter gear into the teeth on the outside of the flywheel, the starter actually MOVED.

Wish I could help more...

[krispos42]

5. I don't think that's it... it's always started before.

Wouldn't a chipped flywheel make the engine out-of-balance?

[denbot]

3. Do the lights come on full strenght? If not pull the battery, and have it check for charge.

If there is no charge, look to the alternator. Your local chain autopart's store will check batteries and alternators for free. Next check your larger fuses. Some ignition systems have fuses, and worst, main chips. Last ditch effort check the oil level. If there is no visible oil, he may have seized the motor, but a dying motor is a noisy death.

Good luck.

[krispos42]

6. I haven't been able to check.

Yesterday was a very busy day... after his car got here I had to run out to bring my grandmother to the doctor. Then she wanted to visit my dad (home recovering from knee surgery). Then dealing with a very frantic boss on the phone. Then I made dinner, then went to work once my mom got home...


I think I took a shower at some point yesterday, but I can't swear to it! :-)


I'll definetaly see if I can jump it... if I can, then it's got to be the alternator.


I've got to find my damn voltmeter!

[Lasher]

10. Blow the horn and turn the headlights on.

That will tell you something even if you can't find your voltmeter. If the horn blows and the headlights are bright, it's probably not the alternator.

[krispos42]

15. I hooked up jumper cables today to try to jump it.

No dice. I must conclude the alternator and battery are working properly.


There goes the straightforward stuff. :-(

[HopeHoops]

7. The starter is definitely an obvious place to start. I doubt it damaged anything else.

The most likely answer is that the starter pin isn't being pushed out to engage the flywheel. It is easiest to simply replace the starter rather than trying to fix that issue.

As to why it cut out, that's not obvious from your description, but it is possible that if the starter is defective, it tried to engage the starter pin while the engine was running. That would both stop the engine and potentially fuck up the flywheel so if you replace the starter, use a mirror and a strong light to inspect the flywheel through the opening the starter attaches to. I would file such damage in the "bad things" folder because replacing a flywheel means pulling the engine and transmission and that's not easy, quick, or cheap.

[krispos42]

16. Good advice. I found out my brother never had the timing belt changed...

...so it's possible that that is the cause of the engine stalling. It's an astronomical chance, though, that the timing belt would break and the starter would crap out within a couple of minutes of each other!

[guitar man]

8. Assuming there's a hot battery in the car

The first thing I would do is pull the starter and see if I could determine why it's not engaging. Sometimes it's just the bendix getting gunked up with dirt and stuff and it won't let the gear slide all the way forward to the flywheel.

[Lance_Boyle]

9. Does the engine turn by hand, or can you push the car forward at all in gear? n/t

[krispos42]

19. I'll be finding out tomorrow when I finally have a clear schedule

At least I'll be able to get caught up on my podcasts...

[Gold Metal Flake]

11. No chance of reverse current from starter overloading electrical.

Why not? because the starter solenoid would release after it was de-energized as the key was moved back from Start position to Run position.

But, is it possible that the solenoid did not de-energize? Maybe, but doubtful unless there were a short in the starter switch. Besides, on a long shot, if the starter motor did not release and was generating some current it would not be much current. It's a very inefficient means of current generation and would simply offset the alternators charge, which would charge less sensing less load. Also, if the started failed to disengage, either from being continuously driven or from being jammed, it would have made a loud noise. Also, the starter drive is designed to be pushed away from the flywheel when the engine overruns the starter (as when it fires and runs).

The engine died. probably electrical. I suspect a bad battery cable. The bad cable would prevent the starter motor from drawing sufficient current resulting in the starter not engaging the drive. Check/replace cables and test/replace battery. Test.

[krispos42]

20. That's how my logic train went on the issue...

...one the key is moved from "Start" to "Run", the starter becomes electrically isolated. I didn't know about the fallback "push away" design of the starter, so thanks for that.

The battery and alternator were replaced about 6 months ago. I tried to jump-start the car and it didn't make any difference, so I'm assuming the alternator and battery are okay.

However, as far as my brother knows, the timing belt was never changed. So, that might be it.
At least it's not an interference engine.

[Gold Metal Flake]

21. Check them dogone ol' cables.

If the cables are bad, jumping won't help. Timing belt would also kill it dead but that has nothing to do wwith the starter, unless it IS an interference engine. Cue dramatic music sting.

[R. P. McMurphy]

12. If you hear the starter whirring . . .

and there is no grinding sound (a gringding sound might indicate teeth missing from the flywheel) I would believe that the starter bendix isn't working.

[jmowreader]

13. There are two problems here

First is probably the starter solenoid. To check it, get a piece of wire with a push-on connector on one end of it and SOMETHING on the other end. Crawl under the car and find the starter. It looks like a big can with a little can attached to it, in parallel. The little can has three wires coming out of it--a thin wire with a push-on, a thick wire running back to the battery, and a thick wire that's about an inch long, and connects to the big can. They're usually arranged as a triangle--left goes to the starter, top is the push-on, right goes to the battery. Remove the push-on and connect the jumper you made there, then touch the other end to the right terminal. The starter SHOULD make a big clunk and the engine SHOULD crank. If it doesn't do this, the solenoid is fucked. They don't sell these anymore unless you rebuild starters, so you need a rebuilt starter.

Now here's your other problem: why did the car quit running? The starter didn't make it quit working; once the engine starts running the starter doesn't do anything. My first guess is he hit a chuckhole or something and tripped the "fuel pump inertia shutoff switch." This is supposed to keep gas from spewing all over the place if you get in a wreck. There's a button in the trunk somewhere that resets this. Find it, push it, figure out why the car won't crank and you should be golden.

[krispos42]

18. I'll be crawling underneath there tomorrow... at least it's suppose to nice outside

Fair weather until Sunday, according to the NWS (socialize weather reporting!)

The timing belt on this car was never changed, so it's possible it decided to snap this week. That might stop the engine...

[VMI Dem]

14. When was the timing belt changed?

[krispos42]

17. I just texted him

The answer: "Not that I recall".


Shit.


At least it's not an interference engine... I checked on gates.com. Phew!

[SoDesuKa]

22. Run Out of Oil?

A car would stop dead if you ran out of oil. Check the dipstick.

[dimbear]

23. My best guess--and no offense please:

The timing belt is broken and actually the engine is spinning but you're not really looking at the crankshaft.

See how that would explain the coincidence? Admittedly it only works if you don't know much about that engine.

That's why I said no offense.

[LaurenG]

24. This is what happened to mine several months ago

I was hoping for a simple fix but it was the timing belt which turned into the water pump too.

[krispos42]

26. It is the timing belt

See below.

I still don't know why the engine isn't spinning, though. I was watching while my brother tried it; it didn't move a whit. The serpentine belt didn't budge while the starter was whirring.

I just hope there's some kind of safety switch involved that's keeping the starter from engaging when the timing belt is broken or the cam/crank are out of alignment.


:shrug:

[krispos42]

25. It's the timing belt.

I jacked the car up and put it on jackstands, popped open the oil cap, and turned the engine with a socket wrench while my kid peered down at the camshaft. Nothing. None of the lobes moved. I turned the engine about 3 revs total and the cam didn't move a minute of arc.

I guess it's off to the mechanic then.


Thanks everybody who offered advice; the timing belt idea was great!

:grouphug:

[guitar man]

27. Ouch

I hope that doesn't leave too big of a mark :(

[krispos42]

29. It's front-wheel drive, too, so it's jammed in there, sorta.

Damn lateral engines!

Well, maybe if I take the tire off I can go in through the wheelwell.

[guitar man]

32. Ugh

I've been doing mechanic work all my life and when we go car shopping, I always tell my wife if she picks out a front wheel drive, it goes to the shop for all repairs. :(

[jmowreader]

28. If you can get the crank pulley off, timing belts aren't hard to change

You will need to add one tool to your arsenal: a Harbor Freight 3/4" drive electric impact wrench. Get a set of deep-well impact sockets and you're set.

Anyway, the procedure is real simple. It just takes all day to do it if you've never done one before, because you have to take EVERYTHING off the front of the engine.

[krispos42]

30. Dad has a couple of gear pullers, and a little air compresser.

High pressure, just a small tank. The whole thing is on wheels, like a piece of medium-sized luggage. Kinda nifty, actually.

And an impact wrench. MORE POWER!!!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

31. check all the spark plugs first and if they are all good .....it's the timing belt/chain