Ever wonder if a cultural belief in an afterlife raises the murder rate?

[jobycom]

I don't mean any particular religious beliefs about Heaven or Hell, I mean just the idea that there is something in our bodies that lives on after they die, whether in some eternal place of happiness or punishment, or through reincarnation, or just as ghosts.

I have two reasons I'm thinking about this. First, a friend died today. Not unexpected, but still not a happy time, so of course as an atheist who has no belief in anything beyond the life of the body, I'm pondering mortality and such things.

Second, and more importantly for the question, I was thinking of a story a while back about a man who shot his girlfriend. He plead guilty, and in his apology he said he hoped that she would forgive him, wherever she was, and that she was in a better place.

And a bonus reason, now that I'm thinking about it--"Kill them all, God will know his own" may not have actually been said by Simon de Montfort before the Albigensian Crusade, but it was certainly the attitude of Christian Crusaders, Muslim assassins, ancient soldiers, and fanatics of all sorts.

So I'm curious--and morbid--right now. Does this belief in something beyond the body make people respect the life of the body less? If there was a cultural belief that life ended with the body, and that therefore life was the most sacred element in the world, would people respect it more? Obviously it wouldn't eliminate killing, but would it make people think more, maybe make it less?

And I know that people believe or don't believe, so I'm not asking about whether there is an afterlife, or even stating that I know there isn't. Just a hypothetical question.

Just a normal light discussion topic for the Lounge on a Friday. :)

[kentauros]

1. I would say no more than the death penalty acts as a deterrent.

I don't know the statistics (and am too lazy to look them up) but my educated guess is that most murders take place during a moment of intense passion, where all reasoning goes out the window until after the deed is done. Then people take the time to think deeper about what they've done, what the consequences are and whether or not things are "better" for the victim in an afterlife ;)

[jobycom]

3. People think, even in that intense passion.

They let themselves get to that point, they make a choice to pull a trigger or slash or bludgeon or whatever. It's not a totally rational choice, but it's a choice.

I think people in that state inherently think "I'll show them!" or "I'll make them regret it!" or whatever. They are subconsciously assuming that after the act, something in that person will be aware of the "lesson." It's not a conscious thought, really, it's just an ingrained assumption, based, I think, on the conditioned belief that something in the soul lives on. Maybe if they don't have that thought, maybe if there is no internal voice that can say "They'll regret treating me this way" because there is no concept they will be aware of what happened, some people would stop. I don't think it's just a rationalization after the crime, I think it is a subconscious assumption before the crime.

And of course some people would still do it. I'm just wondering if fewer would.

Now that I think about it, too, countries like England, Japan, and Sweden, that have very low rates of religious belief have very low murder rates, whereas countries like the US and Mexico have very high murder rates. England and Sweden have fairly lax penal systems and no death penalty, whereas Japan and the US have the death penalty, so deterrence and the criminal system really aren't much of a factor. I doubt it's just about an afterlife, either, but I still wonder if it plays a factor.

Just thoughts. I'm not convinced, just thinking out loud. Even if I were convinced, I wouldn't know what to do about it.

[kentauros]

7. In my opinion, being religious and being spiritual are two different things.

And so, what's the murder rate in Tibet? ;) (by Tibetans, not the Chinese government.)

For that matter, what the murder rate amongst those that are considered of the "mystic" sects of each religion, like Sufis or Theosophists? A "low rate of religious belief" does not necessarily mean a lower sense of spirituality. People might still have an idea of an afterlife without being religious. I've seen people around DU talk about something called "brane theory" but I'm afraid that's kind of over my head. I'm satisfied with what I know or believe and don't feel the need to "enlighten" others in the same way. In fact, I doubt I ever could! :P

How this affects a murder rate, and when they do think about it, I still don't think an afterlife has much to do with it all. Maybe the way their mind works at all is based on that, but I'd say that if that were so, they'd be far less likely to commit any violent act, because it would always be on their mind. I feel that then, respect for life might actually go up, instead of down. We don't know all of the factors in anyone's life for why they lose a respect for life. I would say that the military psychologists that make their living removing that "aversion to killing" in some military personnel would be best qualified to answer that...

[jobycom]

15. I was only using "religious belief" as a guess on belief in an afterlife.

Not as a comment on morality or spirituality. While I know aome atheists who believe in some form or afterlife, most I know don't, and while I know that some organized religions don't believe in an afterlife, in general a belief in God coincides with a belief that there is something beyond the physical body. I was just trying to say that nations with a higher percentage of atheists would likely have a higher percentage of people who don't believe in an afterlife, and vice versa.

Didn't mean to sound anti-religious. Apologies for that.

[kentauros]

20. I knew you weren't being anti-religious, so no need for apologies

:)

I made my statements, though, because there are plenty around here that would latch onto my posts with the intention of starting a fight, so I have choose my words carefully ;)

Lydia made a point I was thinking about earlier. Again, don't know the statistics, but isn't Japan mostly Buddhist, and don't many if not most Buddhists hold some kind of afterlife belief?

As I try to think of other examples where a country has a low-murder rate, like say Sweden or Norway, I still get the impression that they have strong religious beliefs. That is, Christianity is still popular in those two countries, yet they seem to have a greater respect for life than we do.

After looking up those two countries on Wikipedia, Sweden might not be as good a choice, but it turns out that Norway is. "Lowest homicide rate in the world" and yet, almost 80% of the population is in the Church of Norway, a Christian denomination. Now while it goes on and says that only 20% feel it has an important role in their lives, I think it's safe to come away from that information with the idea that overall their religion has had a positive impact on their society. And I'd be fine with the idea that it's not the religion that's causing them to have a low-homicide rate. If it's something else, then I think we should emulate it! :D

[jobycom]

21. It's not really religous belief I'm talking about.

Religion for many people is a great source of inspiration to do right, and obviously in some people it can be the opposite, but I'm not really talking about morality issues or a sense of whether it's right or wrong to kill. It's more about whether the idea that people don't completely die creates a climate where death isn't seen as completely final, and that makes it a little less of a taboo. It's not about conscious thought in the moment before a killing, it's sort of an overall subconscious attitude that something in a person survives the death, instead of an absolute finality to death.

[kentauros]

23. I agree that religious/spiritual people are more apt

to consider death as simply another "step" in existence, but I still disagree that it has anything to do with whether or not they'll murder, even subconsciously. If that were true, I think we'd see much higher murder rates across the planet than we do already.

One thing to consider in all this is at that same subconscious level, people are, in general, quite selfish. I don't get the impression that someone in the process of a murder is even subconsciously considering whether the other person's existence will go on after death. More like whether or not they'll get caught, whether they care about getting caught, how to get out of that situation when they're done, and so on. If the subconscious thoughts were strong enough to sway a killer's conscious thoughts like that, especially with regards to the afterlife, then that's how I figure murder rates would be higher.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. The type of Buddhism most common in Japan has an afterlife

It's hard to gauge what people do or don't believe, because the predominant religions don't have regular weekly services where the believers come together. However, if you visit a temple or shrine, you will see both people there as tourists and people there praying or offering incense. It is also common for households to have a family altar, where pictures of the deceased are kept.

[stray cat]

2. No

[Bucky]

4. Is there a culture in which a significant number of people don't believe in the afterlife?

[Nikia]

18. Soviet Russia was officially atheist

I know that means that religious belief didn't automatically go away but a few generations were raised atheist. Stalin was atheist and had many people killed.

[Kali]

5. I think it could go either way

depending on the particular circumstances involved in what that "afterlife" was, the fear of eternal punishment or bad karma might do the opposite of what you are suggesting.

I'm with Kentauros - I don't think most people who get close to the possibility of committing murder ever think about the consequenses. Sure there are some pre-planned murders but I think most are pretty spontaneous. (I could be wrong - I'm also too lazy to look up stuff today:P )

[Mike 03]

6. Fascinating question.

I would think that it might raise the suicide rate, but I would have to think carefully about what you are asking. This is a very, very fascinating question, and thank you for asking it.

[MiddleFingerMom]

11. The Catholic Church dealt with that by declaring suicide...

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...to be (I think) the ONLY unforgiveable sin -- as there is no one to
confess to upon commission.
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[snagglepuss]

8. Suicide bombers provide a clear cut answer to your question. nt

[tigereye]

9. interesting question - but I can't help but think that the

reasons for murder are more earth-bound, and that any rationales involving afterlife are more secondary/after the fact, even in the case of so-called "mercy killings."

[pitohui]

10. of course it does, or at least it raises the killing rate (it encourages wars)

get a big outline of human history and see how many wars were fought, over how many years, so some religious hooey or another would be followed instead of a different brand of religious hooey

if you consider 911 an act of terror (murder) instead of an act of war, it's one of the biggest mass murders ever planned and executed and all because some people believe one brand of hooey and resent us for being rich & successful even tho we think their hooey is hooey and our hooey is the Real Deal

jonestown, that's 900 people slaughtered by poison and gunfire, again, a HUGE mass murder and all over religious hooey

some guy kills his girlfriend, well, that's pretty trashy, but if you kill for sex, at least you're killing one or two people at a time, you're not going to be able to wipe out dozens, hundreds or even thousands in the name of your girlfriend's cheatin' heart

one of the first famous "out" atheists, madelyn o-hare (can't spell it) was murdered in cold blood, think her son was too

believers in religious hooey just love to spread "the good news" at the point of a gun, whereas atheists are mostly inclined to just STFU and try to go along to get along, we don't want to screw up the only thing we got

[jobycom]

16. As someone who studied history, I think it's a lot more complicated.

Most wars that we label as religious were complex social, cultural, and economic conflicts, and religion was just the convenient excuse for it. Take the Crusades, which is everyone's favorite religious atrocity. I did a lot of original research on them, and read even more of other people's research on them. The first Crusade was a political action. The emperor in Byzantium called on the Pope as the strongest secular leader in Europe to send troops to help him fight off invading Muslims, after the Muslims had finally conquered the trade routes from China and were shutting Byzantium off. Islam was centuries old by this point, and most Muslims traded with Byzantium in relative peace, but a group of conquerors had broken the peace and begun to attack the trade routes, not in the name of Allah, but in the name of money.

The Pope used religion to sell the war to the masses at Clermont, but he also used economic and political gain. The Crusades, and most religious wars I've studied, would have happened without religion, since generally they were political and economic wars using religion as an excuse. Like Bush with Iraq, the leaders would use what excuse they could to sell the war, but were still usually just after the money.

But that's still what I'm talking about, I guess. Is it easier for the leaders to sell the wars because they can tell the people that they won't really die? Considering that I can think of several religions that thought of an afterlife as primarily for soldiers who die bravely in battle (Norse, Greek, for instance), maybe the answer is yes. Maybe even one could argue that sometimes the belief in an afterlife is the result of leaders trying to glorify war. That doesn't fit every religion, but it fits some.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. +1000 just for mentioning the Albigensian Crusade and Simon de Montfort.

[rurallib]

13. I have always wondered why the fundys seem to be in no hurry

to die, yet they can hardly wait for heaven.
They count down the days to the rapture, yet seem to want to live to 120.
If you knew heaven was that great wouldn't you be in a hurry to make the trip?

[RobinA]

14. I Know I Would.

Why hang around this veil of tears when I could be sitting on a cloud playing a harp? Makes me believe most people really aren't that convinced there is an afterlife. I mean, why cry when somebody dies if you really believe they are in a better place? In fact, why prosecute murderers? Aren't they doing the victim a big favor? Want to give your loved ones the ultimate gift? Murder-suicide. Be together forever sooner in a happy place.

[jobycom]

17. Most religions link earthly behavior to quality of life in the afterlife.

Whether Heaven or reincarnation, most beliefs say that you have to be good here or the next life will be punishment, and suicide is always the ultimate baddy. As someone mentioned above, maybe the suicide taboo is a necessary corrolary of an afterlife, to keep people from trying to hasten the jump.

And a lot of my fundie friends actually do live a little more wrecklessly. The one who just died, for instance, was a devoutly religious conservative (and a very good man), but he took no care of himself. He was well over 300 lbs for most of his life, and would joke that he knew he was going to a better place, so he could eat what he wanted. Sadly, he decided to go on a diet because he was feeling weak and tired all the time, and after he lost over a hundred pounds he discovered he had advanced colon cancer, and that's what was making him so tired. (Really sad, because he'd had several colonoscopies, but they'd missed it somehow).

I have several fundie friends like that, not eating well or exercising because they claim they aren't concerned about how long they live here. Some of them are just making excuses, but some of them really mean it.

[applegrove]

22. I heard a stat somewhere that before civilization when people lived by customary law,

80% of your time was spent doing things so that you would not get murdered. I guess there is lots of murders or war in early peoples.

[RandomThoughts]

24. Actually belief in the after life helps people think about other people more then themselves.

Many people that believe there is only a mortal life, think people that think of an after life are throwing away their lives, and many times those that don't believe in an after like like to try and control 'what gets a good after life'

The groups that use religious thoughts of after life to create people able to die or risk for causes often do that to get them to give up part of there lives.

If you believe in no after life, your view of how you live changes, since then there would be no justice in existence.


For most people a persons actions in life become less important when compared to some eternal immortality after life.


However I believe a person should do things because they feel correct with best information. Not because of some future ends, so don't use the idea of an after life to guide choices, but because it is best to do what you think is best. to do anything to get into heaven or avoid hell would be ends justify means.

Also people believing they live on in their children is a form of that, it is also seen where people think they leave a legacy that will live on after them. There is even some beliefs that a person exist as long as someone remembers something they have done, the reason for some erasing of peoples names in ancient Egypt, and the concept of someone not being heard of by people, making them not remembered.

many topics on that question.