I love telling the truth -- Dean is unelectable

[genius]

Dean is so busy lying about Kerry and other candidates and calling Kucinich unelectable that he doesn't have a chance. Kucinich people would rather vote for Richard Nixon than for an anti-civil rights, anti-environmentalist like Dean. The people who work for Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards and the other candidates Dean likes to slam aren't about to support Dean either because they want someone they can trust and honor.

By the way, Kucinich is much more electable than most of our greatest presidents. Start reading some history books about about the men who just barely got nominated and then went on to greatness. Dean must be really scared. Dean can't find anything legit to criticize Kucinich on so his people are lying about Kucinich's electability.

[CMT]

1. these threads are really getting silly

they all are electable. It's Bush through his policies who is getting more unelectable each day.

[caledesi]

8. Well said CMT.

[deutsey]

55. Thank you.

:hi:

[TheDonkey]

2. No, and wow.

That is a lot of hate for Dean. What would you do if he won the nomination. I believe he can and would be a great replacement over G.W. B$.

Kucinich is good but polls very low and is extremely progressive. Not a bad trait imo but many people feel that this is wrong and the polls reflect that. His ideas are TOO innovative for many to understand or want to embrace. He is a bit too ahead of the times to be president in 2004.

Best of luck to him in the primaries but we need to be realistic.

[Ediacara]

3. Well actually

Dean can win states Kucunich could never ever EVERE win, first and foremost, Ohio. Missouri, Montana, Colorado, Nevada, and New Mexico are also on the list.

[Kolesar]

4. Kucinich would win Ohio

I feel very confident in that.

[saline]

9. Kucinich in Ohio, Saline in DU hell.

I worked for Kucinich, I'd love him to be president, at the same time I'm pretty well convinced it's not going to happen. I'm voting for whoever gets nominated (which totally makes me a bad person I know, oh shit... am I going to some kind of DU hell now?)

I don't think he'll win Ohio, I don't think he'll win a single state. I hope he wins his seat in the house back. He is too progressive, too ahead of his time, too smart, too compassionate and too right about the war on (insert conservative ralley point here) for the American people.

[Ediacara]

14. Kucinich would win his district

and almost no where else in the state. He would also probably lose states like Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconson, West Virginia, and even Maine and Oregon.

Hey btw Kucinichites, when was the last time a house member was elected to the white house? I'll give you a hint, it was over 120 years ago, and the fellow's last name is the same as a cartoon cat's.

Kucinich has no chance.

[Ediacara]

15. oh and btw

That cartoon cat guy, he was the ONE and ONLY house member EVER to be elected straight to the white house.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Sylvester?

We had a President Sylvester?

[Ediacara]

24. uh, that would be Garfield :-)

:-)

[DemBones DemBones]

39. I thought for a minute there that he meant

President Fritz! :evilgrin:

[MercutioATC]

31. I'm in Westlake, SpikeTrees...

I like a lot of Kucinich's ideas and I'm happy they're being discussed, but I think he's too idealistic. As an example, single-payer national health care is fine, but do you REALLY think he (or anybody) could get it through Congress?

I DO like Dennis...I just think he's a little ahead of his time.

[LWolf]

41. I've spent a lifetime being sneered at because

I'm "one of those." An idealist. I've been sneered at by the worst, including a boss. I'm still an idealist. Why? Let me share with you:

The people who sneer at idealism consider themselves cynics or pragmatics...they have no hope for achieving the highest good, so they go for mediocrity. They support and celebrate mediocrity with every breath, patting themselves on the back for "winning," because if they achieve their mediocre goal, they've been "successful."

And they never rise above mediocrity.

Then there's me...the idealist. I set my sights on the highest good that I can imagine, and I work for it. I head in that direction. And guess what? You are absolutely correct if you think I never get there. I never do. But I still win. You see, working with that highest goal always in mind, I get much further than if I settled for mediocrity. Here's a concrete example from my real life...

I'm an elementary school teacher. I don't start the year thinking that I want to get every child through all the text books and able to fill out work sheets. I don't start out with the goal that all kids can achieve "C" student status. I start out with the goal that every kid will be an incredible intellectual and ethical genius when he/she leaves my classroom. And I work with every kid with that goal in mind. And guess what? They leave my room having grown more, and experienced more success, than if I had settled for "passing" the textbooks. Idealism in action.

I would love to see this idealism in action on behalf of our country. Would every single goal be reached? No. Would we be further ahead in the long run? Absolutely.

This idealist invites you to step over to the side of energy, hope, enthusiasm, and vision.

In the '04 election, that's Dennis Kucinich.

[MercutioATC]

43. I'm glad it works for you and I'm not "sneering" at anybody.

I'm just stating an opinion. I'm a pragmatist.

You do make some valid points, and I DO feel that Kucinich is the most idealistic candidate. My views stand, however. I don't think he can accomplish the majority of what he wants to.

I understand the parallel you draw between the country and a classroom, and I admire teachers...especially ones with goals like yours. Not to trivialize the importance of a child's development, but if your approach doesn't work with a few, it's not a tragedy (well, it is on one level, but I'm sure it happens from time to time). I honestly believe that backing a single-payer healthcare plan will result in maintaining the status quo. It wil never make it through Congress and millions of Americans will still be uninsured.

Again, I'm just attempting to explain why I take the stance I do. Were I less sure of it, your position would be very attractive. You state it eloquently.

[liberalnurse]

7. I agree!!!!

Metzenbaum said it too. He backs a winner.

[Cha]

5. you are so not a genius and your opinion

is just that.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

6. Since you're a genius...

...maybe you could come up with a more constructive way to refute that BS post saying DK is unelectable than to stoop to the same childish level.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

20. BS POST?!

Have you read it?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

30. Yup

And I stand by my statement. Both posts do nothing to further the cause, they only hurt the Dems as a whole.

[CookieD]

10. Dean Trails in Online Poll of Electability

Actually I'm not really sure that "electability" is a word, but here is an online poll in which Gov. Dean could use some support. Lieberman seems to be pulling away. Here is the url.

http://www.democrats.us/beta/forum/view_forum.php?id=10

The website hosting the poll is at www.democrats.us

[MercutioATC]

32. Democrats.us is a subscription site.

...and so is Meetup, where Dean won a plurality a month or so ago.

Neither is the real world.

If we want a real indication of how the Dem candidates are doing nationwide, we should probably stick to the Zogby and Gallup polls.

Just remember, it's WAY too early to count polls as gospel...

[Booberdawg]

11. More Flamebait??

What is with you Dean Kerry people?? Give it a rest!:eyes:

[LibInternationalist]

12. I really don't understand this...

"anti-civil rights"? "anti-environmentalist"? At least point out how, if you're going to libel someone. Kucinich doesn't seem electable to me because (a) he's goofy looking, (b) the "Department of Peace" shit just won't fly with enough of the electorate (sadly), (c)no one's heard of him, and (d) he hasn't raised any money (which, again sadly, matters)

I would like to see Kucinich win the presidency, but I doubt it will happen. I will probably be voting for Dean in the primary. I will definitely fight (non-violently) with every fiber of my being to see that anyone but Bush is elected (and serves) as President.

[JackieO]

13. LOL, genius

You funny. Actually, I hate that word electable... it's so anti-democratic. I don't blame you for trying to fight fire with fire, though... It sucks to see that crap repeated OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER... :puke:

Let's just focus on getting Dennis' EXCELLENT and NECESSARY message out there.

A lot of people haven't even heard of him yet, so there's a lot of work to do.

[liberalnurse]

16. These bashing threads make me want to

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Jim Sagle]

17. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit. And that's the REAL truth.

[DianeK]

19. what planet are you from?

i live in vermont..take a look at the stats...pretty nice state to be in especially if you are a working person...trust me, cheney would hate it here

[DianeK]

21. by the way..

it strikes me that you must be very young....older folk understand that flames do no good..we are all on the same side here

[Mairead]

40. I think there are a lot of 'very young' posters here

Notably those whose depth of analysis is limited to unsupported assertions about how Kucinich is 'too' something or 'not' something else.

Though in deference to the many thoughtful younger people, I think I'd prefer to call the shallow thinkers 'immature' instead.

[Ellen Forradalom]

22. We have nine fine candidates

and although I'm leaning towards Dean I'd be happy with any of them.

[VoteClark]

38. How come nobody else thinks so?

I mean, come'on, the most a candidate is pulling is like 16% of the Democratic vote. 40% don't like any of them. That is why we need Clark, Hillary, or Gore.


J4Clark

[whirlygigspin]

23. A dollar for Dean with every bashing $$$

First they laugh at you
Then they hate you
Then you win

[liberalnurse]

25. I'll work overtime it I have too!!!!

.

[JackSwift]

26. He is a self-proclaimed "genius"

it must be true! It is so truly true true true and so geniusistical that we don't even need a citation to the bile, as the venom is self-evident! Oh, the humanity!

[jiacinto]

27. Kuchinich is too far to the left to win

period.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

28. I agree with jiacinto.

I don't see how we can win if the moderate electorate views our candidate as a "lefty". No offense to anyone on the far left, but this election will be decided in the middle.

[Martel]

29. but even worse than that

he has Dukakis Syndrome-(big ears and a funny name)

Sorry, Denny old boy.

[bread_and_roses]

48. Since when...

...are health care, peace, good wages, etc. the "far left?" When WE identify those issues as "far left" we reinforce the Right's demonization of what are traditional Democratic stances.

[Thomas Jefferson]

49. Peace, health care, good wages, etc are traditional Democratic

stances. You are absolutely right about that. The philosophy of the Dean people that these important centrist values are too far left shows how out of touch Dean is with traditional Democratic values.

[indigo32]

56. And Dean supports ALL THOSE things as well

EOM

[Albert Einstein]

33. Well said, Dennis is very electable!

First, Dennis is very electable. Dean is lying when he says Kucinich is unelectable. Kucinich has been elected as Congressman of Ohio and is is therefore electable. He routinely wins re-election by overwhelming margins.

Second, if anyone is unelectable, it is Dean. He has stances that are to the right of Nixon. Dean is very un-environmental and he has said it is was a bad thing that a case was overturned and that it would have been better if the person had been on death row and executed. The man was innocent or he would not have been put back on the streets. Dean is also unelectable because Bush can rip him to shreds because Dean is hiding his positions so much and is actually more right wing than his supporters want to believe.

[Ediacara]

34. to the right of Nixon?

like what?

[Martel]

35. I respectfully disagree

Read: Clinton 101

Clinton stole the Republican's thunder, i.e. welfare reform- (was it really that bad)? "My Way or the Highway" doesn't work anymore. GWB is vulnerable.

It’s easy.

[bread_and_roses]

50. Yes, it really was that bad....

...trust me, I work in human services, it really is bad...the good economy during the Clinton years masked how bad. In my now far gone youth, Clinton would have been called a Republican. (And no, I don't "hate" Clinton, he's been the best of a bad lot, but I always thought of him as an old style moderate Republican...which, of course, considering our current lot looks awful good.)

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

36. Link please

"Dean is lying when he says Kucinich is unelectable"

I haven't seen Dean say that. Have a link, or just another emotional accusation?

[Ediacara]

37. don't hold your breath..

[JohnKleeb]

42. dark horses so to say thats whatt those are called

Most of Dean's people here I like a lot. Also genius I know this is a knock off of what Thor L did and maybe you are trying to be funny but some think here you snooped to his level. I think me and the Doctor would agree on most social issues but it seems on economics and yes I know he got an award from the AFL-CIO and maybe I am wrong but isnt Dean a self described Rockfeller republican like kinda. Well I would be ok with those guys I would prefer a democrat like RFK back then. I wasnt flaming Dean with that.

[LuminousX]

44. Nice Way to Oust Bush!

Keep up the good work. I state, yet again, "I will vote for whomever the Democrats select at the convention." Why, because the primary, caucus system works and with few exceptions, the most electable person is the one who rises to the top.

[dpbrown]

45. I like the way you think

And I tend to agree with your assessment, especially of the distaste the treatment of Kucinich supporters is causing them towards Dean. The more they call me a liar or, essentially stupid, for supporting Kucinich, the less likely it is that I'm going to support their candidate.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Nazgul35]

46. A possible clue...

is when someone posts a thread and is never heard of again....let's ignor this nonsense!

And now, that's another $5 dollars to the Dean campaign!!!

[Thomas Jefferson]

47. Good job. Well deserved comment.

These Dean people remind me of the Republicans - always ready to attack. I'm glad someone's putting up a fight.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

52. How long have you been here Mr. Jefferson?

x

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

54. Ahhhh - 15 posts, this guy can obviously pick out the "Freepers" among us.

x

[w4rma]

57. "electability" is code for fundraising ability

Kucinich can't fundraise.
Kerry has to go to DLC big corporations for his funds
Dean out raised both of them in Q2 and is the only candidate *gaining* support.


Dean Raises $7.5 Million in Second Quarter
In the second quarter ending yesterday, 59,000 Americans donated an average of $112 to help boost Governor Howard Dean to the top of the second quarter fundraisers with a total of $7.5 million raised.

Unlike the small, exclusive multi-million dollar fundraisers held in major cities by President Bush over the last week, the Dean campaign saw its numbers surge based on small donations over the Internet—with nearly $3 million raised online in the last week alone. In the second quarter, 45,030 people donated online a total of 51,474 times. The average donation online was $74.14.

“When we said last week during the governor’s announcement that ‘You have the power,’ we had no idea just how much power our supporters had,” said Campaign Manager Joe Trippi. “They are people participating directly in their democracy, and doing whatever they can to help us take our country back—giving $20, $30, or $50. This is People-Powered Howard.”

Second quarter fundraising by the numbers:

Total raised in second quarter: $7,500,000 Total donors (2003 to date): 70,000
Average contribution: $112

First time donors in second quarter: 48,000

Levels of Internet Giving:
Less than $50: 18,422
$50 -- 99: 11,579
$100 -- $249: 11,436
$250 -- $499: 2,379
$500 -- $1,000: 368
$1,000 and up: 129
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000584.html

[polpilot]

58. Kucinich is a hero because of his stand on the war. If he'd had some

help in congress there would be a lot more people breathing tonight.


Dean '04

[Nicholas_J]

59. I was watching washinton week in review tonight

And the decision of the political analysts was the same...
Running an attack campaign on other democrats, and running an anti war campaign is going to lose the democrats the election.
This is the total scenario...

There are two strategies for winning.

One is the DLC strategy says the electoral pie is always shrinking, and 40% always vote one way and 40% always vote the other way, so engage in focus-group politics to snare enough of the 20% in the "middle" to win.



Thie second philosopy states vote your conviction and that"people are disenchanted and will respond to a healthy, populist message, and that will bring non-traditional voters to the polls, and get those people who don't vote"

Kerry, Gephardt, Graham, and Lieberman subscribe to the first theory.

Kucinich takes the second route

Dean, it seems to me, subscribes to neither. His followers are "proud" of pissing off both the so-called centrists, as well as dissing the "thinking liberals." His entire support structure, so far, is made up very vocal activists in the middle between liberals and centrists.

There's no way that kind of constituency will translate into a win against Bush, a guy who got enough votes to steal the election by "being a guy someone could have a beer with."

Now I really do think it's time for a conviction politician, a populist, to win. Kerry is moving in this direction, Kucinich is already there, but does not have the momentum to win anywhere but in hos own state, where he manages to win consistantly. Kerry as well, runs, and wins, so often that he now pretty much runs withour opposition in his own state. I bet even Dean wishes they would shit up about it.

But Kerry has shown consistancy in everything he stands for, in everything he says, his stance as Senator is NO differnt than the position he takes as candidate. Kucinich has made one change, in his abortion stance, but is a person who has otherwise lways rn as Dennis Kucinich. One does not have to look at Kerry or Kucinich and looks at their overall recrods and try to use some translation chart in order to try to make their past record turn into soomething that resembles their campaign slogans.

In any event, I think the winner, this time, will be the candidate who best puts forth a populist agenda that neutralizes Bush and that energizes voters, and not a focus-group politician bent on winning by "single digits" in a fight for the middle 20%.

In my opinion, you can best support and help your candidate, by making sure they're the best populist (as well as a vigorous opposition to Bush).

As long as Dean supporters are playing their candidate against both sides, I think they're setting their candidate, and the democratic party up for disappointment.

Over 70 percent of all Americans support what has happened in Iraq, regardless of the methods that got the U.S. there. A candidate who supported getting rid of Saddam, but did not support Bush's making a hash of our international relations. placing American troops in harms way without an international peacekeeping force to share the danger and the worlds concern about the Hussein's regime and its thumbing its nose at the rest of the world will not win.

Evn Dean knows this, as he is desparately tryring to get the focus off of his attack on other candidates and the October Resolution. I am glad that Deans most activist and vocal supporters will not get off of this issue, as this focuses attention on Deans attacks on his own party, and his attack agaiinst the opinions of 70 percent of the American public.

Dean started his campaign by putting focus on the dreadful lack of insurance coverage in America, and has just pulled away from his calls for soing something quickly about those who have no health insurance.

Both he and Gephardt call for the repeal of the Bush tax cuts, which no matter how you slice it translates into a tax increase for ALL Americans.


On the other hand, Kerry and Edwards call for only repealing those portions that give the rich the bulk of the tax cuts, and giving tax reilef to the middle class and poor. It is necessary to make the disitinction that the democratic party supports relief for the average worker, and not givaways to the rich.

Kerry's ideas will be those that appeal most to the aveage democrat, his stance on the war parallels that of those 70 percent who support the war if only to get rid of Saddams repressive regime, and supports those who do not want their taxes raised, essentially by getting rid of even the small break they got from Bush's cuts. Kerry says, I want you to keep the little break that you gotr, and I want to soak the rich to pay for your health care, not incrementally, but within the first few years of my presidency.

Deans record of giving tax cuts overall, which ave something to the poor and middle class, but a bigger chunk for the rich just is not that populist message that the average democrat is looking for.

Dean is trying to retreat without retreating. He is as usual being vague, becasue he does not wuite know how to get out of the corner he has boxed himself into. Liberal, but conservative. Fiscally conservative, but provide a big new entitlement. Dena is a contradiction in terms, which may have worked among Vermonters, who seem to hav a rather bizarre and skeptical nature about politics.

Dean is going to alienate those 70 percent of Americans, who do not oppose what happened in Iraq, but wants someone with the smarts and experience to get as many American troops out and more U.N. troops in.
They want somone like Clinton, who fixed the deficit not by cutting programs, but raising the top taxe level on the rich. Again, Deans rcord of opposing such solutions will be front page news before the end of the year.

AS Dean keeps reversing on the two items that he based his entire campaign on, immediate universal health care, and the war with Iraq, he will be percieved as weak, and eventually oppoprtunistic.

[poskonig]

60. You guys are *risk-averse*.

Regardless if someone is right or wrong, one can't win campaigns with a risk-averse attitude.

[MercutioATC]

62. I had to scroll...another Dollar for Dean!

.

[ozymandius]

61. I am fighting one helluva urge to get personal with you.

In the name of civility and intelligent discourse, Genius, what could possibly be accomplished by this thread?

On the matter of just criticism in a presidential campaign: how regularly does the Dean campaign make disparaging remarks about Kucinich?

Has the thought occurred to you that perhaps the Dean campaign does not offer either substantial or regular criticism of the Kucinich camp because their respective stances are not that disparate? How close are your ties to those who work for the Kerry, Gephardt and Edwards campaigns? Have their voices spoken to you in solid unity about that scalawag Dean's tactics?

What can be proven here?