Kerry Charts Complex Course on War (WashPost)

[dajabr]

CHARITON, Iowa, Dec. 15 -- The capture of Saddam Hussein has not changed Barbara Paulding's opinion about the war in Iraq or how she intends to vote in her precinct caucus Jan. 19 as Iowa Democrats begin the process of selecting their party's presidential nominee.

She was among about 50 people seated at tables in Donna's Place, a cafe here, Monday morning when one of the Democratic candidates came bounding in to begin another day of campaigning. Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.) greeted the diners at their tables, delivered a standard stump speech and fielded questions on health care, steel imports, stem cell research and other topics. The subject of the war did not come up in the questioning until Kerry turned to Paulding, 66.

The retired teacher at Indian Hills Community College here said she was "ashamed" that her country had started the war.

--snip--

Neither Kerry's answer nor the capture of Hussein swayed Paulding from her commitment to the Democrats' leading and most vocal critic of the Iraq war, former Vermont governor Howard Dean. "We had no right to be there in the first place," she said.

More: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3305-2003Dec15.html

[zulchzulu]

1. Maybe Ms. Paulding never read this Dean quote

"If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."
--Howard Dean, Feb. 2003

Here's another fun one for good measure:

The September 11 terrorist attacks "require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street."
--Howard Dean, September 12, 2001

[killbotfactory]

4. Key phrases being "if" and "in the end"

But nuance only counts when it's Kerry talking, I guess.

[mitchum]

6. No, nuance is only suspect and under-handed when it's Kerry...

talking. Right, Jack?

[DrFunkenstein]

11. Here's Some More Quotes From Memory Lane

Russert: ...and I'll show it to you. You said in January, Governor, "I would be surprised if didn't have chemicals and biological weapons."

Dean: Oh, well, I tend to believe the president. I think most Americans tends to believe the president.

Russert: What did you think of Senator John Kerry's comments that President Bush misled the country?

Dean: Well, I thought it was Senator Bob Graham that said that and I agree with that.

Russert: No, John Kerry said the president misled us and...

Dean: Well, I wasn't aware that Senator Kerry said it. I knew Senator Graham had said it in Iowa. But I believe that. I think we were misled.

http://www.deanrocks.com/page.cfm?p=1&c=9

Dean later conceded that he backed an alternative to last fall's resolution that would have allowed President Bush to wage war against Iraq without congressional approval. But he said the measure, which never passed, might have averted war.

Bush would have been required to send Congress a letter, not seek a vote of approval, before waging war, Kerry said. He argued there was no significant difference between the Lugar-Biden resolution and the one passed by Congress.

Dean acknowledged that the alternative resolution was not binding against the president, but argued that Bush would have somehow been more likely to use restraint.

"Biden-Lugar required the president to come back to Congress - not for a vote," but only to certify that a number of actions were taken, including more diplomacy, Dean said. "Had the president done that, we would not have gone to war, because then he would have been forced to certify with his word ... all the claims he made that were not true."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1211campaign11.html

Kerry said that at the time of the congressional debate, Dean was on record saying then that Saddam Hussein needed to be disarmed and had supported a resolution sponsored by Sens. Joseph R. Biden Jr. and Richard G. Lugar that would have required Bush to report back to Congress if he failed to win international support for the war.

Kerry said Dean was "trying to have it both ways" on his position. "If you don't have to vote, you can run around and say a lot of things. But that's not leadership."

A Senate Democratic aide involved in the discussions over the competing resolutions said Wednesday that the White House had opposed the initial Biden-Lugar amendment, saying it would tie Bush's hands. Later the White House began negotiating with the sponsors, but those negotiations were undercut when Gephardt cut a deal with the White House to support their preferred resolution.

The aide said Biden-Lugar would have added an additional requirement for Bush to satisfy before going to war unilaterally, but added that a president determined to launch military action probably would not have been deterred by the alternate resolution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54585-2003Dec10.html

One of those alternatives -- offered by the top men on the Senate Foreign Relations, Democrat Joe Biden of Delaware and Republican Dick Lugar of Indiana -- authorized the use of force after a new UN resolution requiring Iraqi disarmament and compliance with past resolution; if UN diplomacy was exhausted it authorized unilateral action if the president declared Iraq a threat.

This alternative was not only supported by Howard Dean, it was supported by Senator John Kerry, whom Dean also attacks for being Bush's war buddy.

Lacking votes, the Biden-Lugar proposal was never formally introduced. Instead, the negotiations with Democrats produced the resolution that passed. It authorized force for several other offenses beyond prohibited weapons (including ballistic missiles, which Iraq had), but also encouraged UN involvement. The differences between the two were not huge, and each authorized war, including unilateral war.

After the vote, Dean reiterated his Biden-Lugar position but did not denounce the enacted resolution until later. He also said Bush should be taken at his word that Iraq constituted a threat.

As a result of Congress's resolution, the Bush administration went to New York and secured unanimous Security Council passage of a new resolution demanding new inspections and threatening serious consequences for disobedience.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/
articles/2003/11/23/deans_negative_tilt_in_iowa/

[killbotfactory]

13. Pretty funny...

Seeing as Dean's position is more coherent than John "Expert" Kerry's.

[killbotfactory]

2. Kerry is an asshole

At a news conference in Des Moines, Kerry was more critical of Dean, saying that he had just delivered "a foreign policy speech written by somebody else."

[DrFunkenstein]

5. Who Are You To Speak Like That?

[killbotfactory]

7. Who is Kerry to be such an elitist asshole?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[killbotfactory]

12. He's the Shooter McGavin of the democratic race.

"It's Kerry's turn! Kerry's the expert, not you! Give me the nomination! Damn you Deanies, go back to your shanties!"

[DrFunkenstein]

15. The Price Is Wrong!

It's not fair! Dean has plenty of foreign policy experience. He's even been to Israel - just ask Ariel Sharon and the Hamas soldiers!

But, seriously, you are calling Kerry elitist because he mentions that he has experience in foreign policy - not some, but 18 years at the highest levels, including 8 years as Chair of the Committee on Terrorism and International Relations.

[killbotfactory]

18. I'm calling him elitist because...

He thinks his experience makes everyone else a retard who can't string two words together on the subject.

[DrFunkenstein]

20. He's Very Respectful Of Clark's Experience

Although I think it is less suited to fighting terrorism than Kerry's.

If 2004 hinged on skiing, I'm sure he would concede the ground to Dean and focus on the economy or something.

[killbotfactory]

22. Well, Clinton was a horrible failure on terrorism...

I can see Kerry's point.

And Rummy and Cheney have loads of experience, and they helped start a war Kerry supported, so I can see his point.

I didn't know fighting terrorism was an insider's only club. I shall now shut up about Bush's horrible foreign policy because I, too, and inexperienced in foriegn policy. I'll leave it to the experts.

[Rose Siding]

25. Kerry made a decision

If he can't be the nominee, he'll do his level best to weaken any other Dem's chances.

[DrFunkenstein]

3. This Thread Is Not Indicative of The Tone Of The Article

You pick one negative and unrepresentative example and ignore the rest. This doesn't seem to be in the spirit of DU to me.

[dajabr]

8. You're right...

I should have picked a more desperate, cranky sounding example. But I've heard enough from Kerry today.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. Speaking of Cranky...Why Are Deanies So Touchy After Saddam's Capture?

If you've heard enough, why would you post a pro-Kerry article?

[killbotfactory]

14. Why is Kerry being such an asshole?

Does he think it will attract voters?

[DrFunkenstein]

16. You Seem To Do Well

With the whole debate format. Those SAT vocabulary classes really paid off.

[killbotfactory]

19. They seemed to work for...

John "Fuck it up" Kerry

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

32. Game. Set. Match.

[dajabr]

17. Touchy?...

I'm not the one running up my post count in this thread...

[DrFunkenstein]

21. I'm Just Having Fun Drawing Out Killbotfactory's Personality

How do you think I did?

[La_Serpiente]

23. I'd give you a round of applause

[killbotfactory]

24. Kerry should check himself before he wrecks himself

He can't go around dissin' other candidates all the time. He's not gonna win the nom with "Dean drools, Kerry rules!" as his only message.

[dajabr]

26. Not so good...

Sometimes the mirror can do a 180.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. Zoinks! Hadn't Thought Of That!

When I point at someone, there's four fingers pointing back at me!

(I never could figure out if it was 3 or 4. It seems like 3 physically, but it sounds terrible rhetorically)

[sandnsea]

27. Great article

I'm glad Kerry is staying right on message. Perfect tone and nuance. We need a leader who knows the answers from experience. I can research and write a paper about brain surgery. Doesn't mean I'm ready to operate. Except maybe on Killbot! (mods, that's a joke)

[killbotfactory]

28. I take great personal offense to that!

But Kerry's still an asshole.

[sandnsea]

29. It really was a joke,

I hope you're joking too! And Kerry isn't an asshole and I think you know it.

[killbotfactory]

31. I'm half joking, and knew you were joking...

I think Kerry's comments on Dean's speech were off the mark, and think he came off as a jerk, but don't know the guy personally and understand it's all politics.