Yale roommate vouches for Dean on race

[Freddie Stubbs]

By GAYLE WHITE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Don Roman taught Howard Dean some of his earliest lessons on race.

Now Roman, who lives in Stone Mountain, is on the campaign trail, telling people his old friend took those lessons to heart and is committed to fairness and racial understanding.

Roman, 55, who is black, roomed with Dean at Yale in the tumultuous days of 1967 and 1968. They talk at least once a week now that Dean is running for the Democratic presidential nomination, Roman said.

He said he feels obligated to share what he knows about the former Vermont governor -- especially when some of Dean's opponents are questioning his credentials on race. So Roman serves as a surrogate for Dean, campaigning in South Carolina for the Feb. 3 primary, for instance, while Dean concentrates on the more imminent Iowa and New Hampshire contests.

more: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0104/15roman.html

[cthrumatrix]

1. I'm shocked ABC/NBC etc have not ran this..... too busy looking

at old tapes find a "Iowa caucass" statement made yrs ago...

correction -- rove probably had the people combing the tapes...pleading for anything to stop Dean from winning.

[trumad]

2. My roommate in the Army was an African American

and it certainly helped me develop into a man who believes in equality for everyone.

[KittyWampus]

3. Still Doesn't Change Fact Dean Supported AA Based On Class

not race.

It also doesn't change that fact the Dean rarely talks about Race in terms of taking Definitive ACTION.

Dean's spiel is that employers, whites, politicians need to TALK about race. No talk about what Programs or Policies to actually change things in REALITY.

[Maddy McCall]

4. Right. It is an anecdotal story...and it doesn't change the fact that

Dean never appointed a black cabinet member in his 12 years and five administrations, and he had to be forced by the Legislature to declare Martin Luther King's Birthday as an official, designated, paid-day-off state holiday.

[trumad]

5. And meanwhile a prominant African American and former Pres Canidate

endorses Mr. Dean... I guess Ms. Braun doesn't know what she's doing? HMMMMMM

[mouse7]

6. Neither does Jesse Jackson Jr. n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

60. She's part of the "Stop Al Sharpton" club. She's aligned with Brazile

n/t

[kerry-is-my-prez]

61. & how Dean fought against making Martin Luther King day an official holida

The legislature stated that they were going to "force" him to do so.

[MercutioATC]

8. Not THAT old saw again...

He never said anything of the kind. What he DID say was "I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class,".

I'll try to make this simple for you...

Nothing in that statement calls for an end to race-based affirmative action programs. What it DOES call for is an exploration of affirmative action programs based on other criteria, such as class.

That aside, Dean said "I think we ought to look at", not "I support".

I challenge you to find ONE quote in which Dean states that he supported AA based on class, not on race, as your post claims.

This is just one more example of attack spin and, frankly, not even a good one...

[beaconess]

11. He also said "I don't think it ought to be done by race."

How much clearer could he have been about his views on the subject?

[MercutioATC]

18. Link? I've absolutely never seen that quote.

Actually, I have mixed feelings on the issue anyway. I realize the value of race-based affirmative action programs, but I feel that class is perhaps an even bigger issue in terms of limitations.

Regardless, I've seen the "I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class," quote interpreted to mean that Dean was not in favor of race-based programs, but I've never seen a quote in which he says "I don't think it ought to be done by race."

[beaconess]

33. Here's the exact quote:

Howard Dean made this comment on CNN's Late Edition on April 9, 1995, at the same time he made the one to which you refer:

DEAN: You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate.

MESERVE: You sound like Newt Gingrich.

DEAN: Well I don't know what Newt Gingrich-

Gov. GEORGE ALLEN: No, Newt Gingrich hates class warfare. Newt Gingrich would not ever want to .

MESERVE: But he's talked about a means test for affirmative action.

DEAN: Well I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race.

I can't give you a link because I got this on Lexis, which requires a subscription.

[MercutioATC]

39. Thanks, I hadn't seen that before.

I read it differently than you seem to, though. Dean says that people who have been disadvantaged by class "ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race." To me this is a dialogue about a completely different issue, not race-based AA. In that context, Dean suggests looking at a plan that would use a class-based system, not one "done by race".

As support for my interpretation, I'd offer that the accusation that he wanted to REPLACE race-based AA with a class-based system is solely based on this one interview (which, I believe, can honestly be interpreted either way). Dean's stance since, however, has been very much in favor of race-based AA programs, such as his very vocal attack on Bush for labeling UM's admission policy a "quota".

Dean's from Vermont. Vermont's less than 3% black. However, had his programs to: visit families with newborns and offer support if needed, provide healthcare for all children and utilize early childhood intervention as a preventative method of dealing with crime been applied in, say, Mississippi, I have no doubt that plenty of minorities (as well as whites) would have been helped.

Dean, like Clark, simply hasn't been in a position to make substantive changes for a large minority base. That doesn't mean he's all talk, however.

[beaconess]

49. I agree that Dean hasn't been in a position to do much on the issue

but, unfortunately, he didn't do as much as he could or should have done. But more important, in my view, he has done nothing to earn the right to position himself as the one who should be leading the fight on civil rights in this country. I welcome his efforts to make a difference and to speak out and fight for civil rights - we need all of the help we can get and his support is very, very helpful. But, given his lack of experience with the topic, he should not be pushing himself as the undisputed leader on civil rights.

He reminds me of old story about the guy who stands on the sidewalk watching the parade and, just as it passes by, jumps to the front and pretends to lead the procession. Howard Dean has been standing on the sidelines his whole life - supportive and interested, but never really participating in any meaningful way. He is welcome to step off the curb and join the parade, but he has not yet earned the right to wave the baton.

[MercutioATC]

59. I respect what yu're saying and it does have some merit, in a practical

sense. However, I really do feel that his appeal is that he's NOT bogged down in individual issues. By applying social programs that help ALL those who need it (regardless of class or race or sex or sexual orientation) you reduce the need for numerous specialized programs. I know that we don't see eye to eye on this issue, but I really do feel that Dean has a broader approach to the issues and that his approach will work best.

[beaconess]

63. I have no problem with applying social programs regardless of group status

but it cannot be denied that race is still a defining and obstructive factor in our society and that race-conscious remedies are still necessary to help us overcome this problem. That is why we still need affirmative action based upon race and while programs based on other factors are necessary (and quite prevalent already, by the way), they cannot replace race-based affirmative action.

I am concerned that, for all his good intentions, Howard Dean does not fully understand this, just as he doesn't grasp many other complexities of the issue of race in America. I don't blame him for that at all. What bothers me is that he doesn't seem to know that he doesn't know and refuses to even consider the possibility that he is not an expert on the topic. This attitude, in my view, is very problematic and will be counterproductive to what we're all trying to accomplish.

He should consider an excellent point made by Kofi Annan, after spending his first winter in Minnesota. A native of tropical Ghana, Annan refused to wear earmuffs, thinking they made him look "inelegant." However, after his ears became so cold in the bitter temperatures that they throbbed in pain, he learned a lesson: "Never walk into an environment and assume that you understand it better than the people who live there." He says this is a lesson he has used ever since in his international diplomacy.

Howard Dean is constantly lecturing others who have far more experience than he with the realities of racism and discrimination in America and have been on the front lines fighting for change. It is misguided, annoying and, in some instances, offensive. It also makes him appear ridiculous to many of the people he is trying to appeal to.

Dean would be taken a lot more seriously if he loses his assumption that he knows more about this than everyone else, stopped talking so much, and started to listen for a change. He might actually learn something.

[AP]

76. In the last year there have been TWO studies showing identical resumes

-- one with a black-sounding name (Tanisha, Kenya), and the other with a white-sounding name (Jennifer, Alexander) -- get dramatically different responses, measured in, if I remember correctly, multiples of 2 or 3.

Class isn't making the difference there. It's race.

[MercutioATC]

79. Where the hell is the logic in THAT argument?

I'm not denying that race is a factor, but your post hardly disproves the idea that class is also a factor. Your post just makes no sense.

[beaconess]

81. Sigh

It's very simple. Minorities continue to be discriminated against purely based upon race, regardless of their economic status. Class based affirmative action will do nothing to alleviate this problem.

Moreover, as evidenced by these and other studies AP mentioned, class-based affirmative action is really only practical for college admissions. It would have absolutely no impact in the employment context, where racial discrimination is still prevalent while socieconomic status rarely impacts upon hiring decisions.

[MercutioATC]

82. Sigh...

I didn't deny the value or necessity of race-based programs. However, a class-based consideration would also be valuable. I do not agree with your appraisal of its potential value in an employment context. People don't get turned down for socioeconomic reasons? Tell the white guy who's employable but homeless that not having a permanent address didn't cost him the job he applied for.

They both have a place because our ultimate goal SHOULD to be to protect people from ALL types of discrimination.

[AP]

97. Law firm associate can't make partner because of race? How is a 180k/year

associate harmed by class or economics? He earning income in the top .5%.

[beaconess]

99. Then he should just shut up and be grateful he has a job

and, of course, be willing to step aside to make room for an economically deprived white person.

[AP]

98. I think it might make sense to people

who care about this issue and think about it often and seriously.

[DemBones DemBones]

69. Well said! Plenty of whites (including Joe Lieberman, for God's sake!)

marched for civil rights in the South, which, sadly enough, was putting their lives on the line. Most white Southerners were not violent but some were unbelievably cruel, murderous bastards -- and that included some police officers. People who don't remember those years, people who were too young then, or not even born, probably find this difficult to comprehend. In the North (Boston, Pittsburgh, New York) as well as the South, there were riots and murders caused by the resistance of some whites to integration. It took physical courage as well as idealism to demonstrate for civil rights, whatever color you were.

Dean was, as you say, supportive and interested, but never really participated in any meaningful way in the civil rights movement. Another article about Dean and his black roommates says that the two blacks went to Memphis to march after Martin Luther King was killed. What did Dean do?

What has Dean ever done to give him the right to wave the baton?

[lurk_no_more]

83. deans own words

You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate.

How can you spin this to not say what he said?

He says he thinks affirmative action programs should be based on class instead of race. If this is not what he meant, why did he say it?


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[mbali]

84. He also said, in the same interview

"I don't think it ought to be done by race."

How much clearer could he have said it?

[Hep]

12. The really discouraging part of your post is that you don't get it.

Dean doesn't talk about definitive action? Early childhood visitation? Affordable and accessible education? Health care for everyone? Job training and opportunities?

All of these things are designed to break the cycle of poverty that disproportinoately affects minorities. Dean is for Affirmative action. But there are many things that we can, nay MUST do in order to improve the lives and livelihoods of EVERYONE.

That doesn't mean Dean is ignoring race. He's spoken out in favor of UMichigan's AA policy since I've known about him. You're faulting him for taking a broad approach to these issues AS WELL as addressing race. You should let us know what your acceptible ratio is.

To say that Dean focuses on class instead of race demonstrates a level of ignorance all too common in our society. You can't separate the two.

[KittyWampus]

23. I "Get" Dean. And He Primarily Mentions The Need To TALK

about Race.

And to suggest a roommate can "vouch" for Dean is absurd. It sounds like one guy okaying another to enter a golf club.

And to suggest that Carol's endorsement means anything other than the fact that she's trying to salvage her political career and/or get a job is ludicrous.

After all, a black roommate and an unsuccessful Politician may have personal opinions on:

Dean
his participation in Civil Rights Movement throughout his entire Life
his Record as Governor
his statements made while as Governor
his current Policies as a Candidate
his current Rhetoric as a Candidate

BUT, that is only two people and there are millions of other African Americans who might have a different take on him.

[MercutioATC]

27. Let's see...he advocates open dialog and supports affirmative action....

you seem to feel that he just wants to "talk". What would you like to see him "do" that he hasn't?

[beaconess]

34. What has Dean "done" to support affirmative action

other than talk about it? Please be specific.

[Hep]

35. Well, for one thing

he has spoken frankly all over the country about how screwed up Bush is for calling UM's admittance policy a quota. He has used every platform available to him to talk about that.

He has also come out with policies that will go a long way to leveling the playing field.

Thanks for asking, by the way, I love to talk about the great things Deandoes and the great ideas he has. I appreciate every opportunity you give me!

[beaconess]

36. I asked you what Dean has done about affirmative action other than talk

and you respond with a list of things that Dean is saying about affirmative action.

"he has spoken"
"he talks about that"
"he has come out with (i.e., talked about) policies"

Notice you didn't mention a single thing that Dean has done about affirmative action, besides talk about it?

I'm glad you appreciate the opportunities I give you to share what Dean is doing about affirmative action. Too bad you haven't actually availed yourself of any of them.

[Hep]

37. Why don't you step up to the plate and tell me what Dean could have done q

Do you think that in Vermont, Dean had a big AA problem?

Your question is preposterous. We know where you're going with it and why. I only wish we could actually have a reasoned discussion about it. But alas...

[beaconess]

40. This is priceless

You insist that Dean is doing so much about affirmative action, yet can't name a single thing. So then you change your tack to demanding that I tell you what Dean should have done.

And yes, I think that Dean DOES have an affirmative action problem in Vermont. His complete failure to do anything to diversify his cabinet (other than, as far as I can tell, offer a job to one minority in 12 years) shows that either he wasn't interested in affirmative action or didn't understand its importance and how to make it work. The lame excuse that it was too hard to find any qualified minorities doesn't fly since that's precisely the kind of excuse that everybody uses to justify failure to diversify their workplaces.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Creating diversity is not easy. Like baseball, it's hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it and there'd be no need for affirmative action. Affirmative action takes some effort. And anyone who had the chance to actually put it into effect, but didn't do it because it would have been too hard certainly does not have the credibility to hold himself up as a great leader on affirmative action.

[Hep]

44. No help WHATSOEVER

Of course, the peanut gallery is not shocked.

You insist that Dean is doing so much about affirmative action, yet can't name a single thing. So then you change your tack to demanding that I tell you what Dean should have done.

Speaking out IS doing something. So you're wrong from the start. Also, I'm asking for examples for some thing that Dean could have done in Vermont. If you can't think of any, just say so.

Your continued claims about Dean not having a more diverse cabinet is HILARIOUS! It's just the perfect magnifying glass for us to see what's really going on here WRT your argument. Dean offered cabinaet positions to people of color. They turned him down. In fact, there doesn't seem to be a huge outcry from minority groups either in Vermont or outside of Vermont about this. SO I ask, what is YOUR ethnicity?

You don't need to talk to me about Affirmative Action. If you want to get into a deep conversation about it, PM me and I'll eat your lunch in private.

[beaconess]

53. Ha ha

You think that "speaking out IS doing something?" Well, to paraphrase your hero, "If talking about civil rights was all anyone needed to do to prove their commitment to civil rights, George W. Bush would be Martin Luther King."

P.S. Perhaps you think you can eat my lunch in private, but you sure haven't done anything close in these public boards.

[Hep]

55. Well, all I know is I'm still waiting for an answer to some questions

and you've posted none. So, uh, I'll just have to think of you as my own personal Nero.

[beaconess]

57. I've answered all of your questions

you just don't like the answers.

[Hep]

64. You haven't answered any

I can't believe you THINK you did answer them, let alone claiming in public that you did.

[beaconess]

65. Well I guess you got ME told

[Hep]

67. I guess so.

n/t

[beaconess]

74. I'm not surprised.

[AP]

77. His TALK in fact, is that we should change our subconscious feelings...

...so, in fact, he's not even asking anyone to DO anything about race.

[beaconess]

78. At least he's being consistent

[Hep]

30. All that's happening here

is that an old friend of Dean's is helping to dispel the MYTH that Dean can't appeal to minorities.

But this isn't what your original beef was. Since I already addressed your previous beef, though, I assume you're done on that subject.

[bread_and_roses]

7. Dean may not be a "predjudiced" person

...but his support for the death penalty, his comments on civil liberties (those pesky "technicalities" in the criminal justice system), his ridiculous statement that even medical marijuana decriminalization required more "study" look to me like someone who either doesn't understand or doesn't care about racism. The death penalty, the drug "war" and the abuse of civil liberties are used as tools of racist oppression in this country.

If Dean doesn't understand or care about that, then he hasn't much to offer communities of color.

[trumad]

9. Dean supports the Death Penalty in some case (extreme)

not all....

[DemBones DemBones]

20. True, but you ignored the other points raised, namely,

Dean's problems with those "pesky" technicalities of civil liberties, and his same old same old positions on drugs. Maybe it's because there weren't a lot of blacks on Park Avenue, at his prep school, or at Yale (Dean requested black roommates so he could get learn about black people), and because Vermont is 97-98% white. . . maybe he really doesn't know that the legal system in general, and drug laws in particular, are often used against African-Americans. But is not knowing an excuse?

As governor, Dean made some troubling comments suggesting that he doesn't understand that people accused of crimes are presumed innocent, with the burden rightfully on the state to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and that he also doesn't understand that people found guilty are still entitled to appeal, and that sometimes convictions do not stand up on appeal.
Is not understanding an excuse?

[MercutioATC]

21. How are racism and medical marijuana connected AT ALL?

Decriminalization of marijuana for recreational use, possibly. Medical marijuana? Absolutely no connection. It's just another chance for some people to shout "racism!".

[DemBones DemBones]

22. Read more carefully -- I didn't mention medical marijuana.

Dean's drug policies are same old same old.

Dean doesn't seem to understand that drug laws are used against African Americans more than against others.

[MercutioATC]

25. You're correct...I assumed that since you were replying to a medical

marijuna thread, that's what you were referring to...

What drug policies of his are "same old same old"? Aside from not favoring decriminalization of marijuana for recreational use, I don't see his positions being much different from most of the other candidates'. What he HAS done is early childhood intervention in high-risk families, which seems to me the better way to deal with any type of crime problem, drug-related or not.

[Hep]

13. It's truly sad

that you would misrepresent Dean this way. That you would ignore his actual policies for three minor issues is messed up.

[bread_and_roses]

17. "minor issues?"

What is "minor" about these issues, especially the impact they have on minorities? Nor do I understand why you would say I ignore his "actual policies." I base my understanding of his positions on what I have read he has said.

[Hep]

19. Here are your answers:

1. Deathy Penalty. He supports the death penalty in a very narrow set of circumstances, and I can't say I blame him. Anyone who kills a cop. Anyone who murders a child. And anyone who engages in acts of terrorism that take human lives. These are not the realms of capital punishment that disproportionately affect blacks. In fact, he would also sign into law pending legislation, authored by Senator Leahy, that will strengthen protections against unjust imposition of the death penalty.

Furthermore, Dean favors PREVENTION over simple incarceration. He believes that by providing early visitation, by providing health care, education, and jobs, he can begin to solve many of the problems that lead to crime.

So this is a non issue.

2. medical marijuana decriminalization is NOT an issue that affects minorities disproportionately. RECREATIONAL drugs, maybe. But it's also a non issue because Dean would support the decisions made by citizens of any state who decides to decriminalize medical marijuana. Also, I find no fault with an FDA trial of pot. It's a smart, huge step in the right direction.

3. I have no idea what comments about civil liberties you're talking about, probably because you didn't provide any of his comments on civil liberties. It's a non issue if you can't be specific.

You're going to be in rough shape if you continue to base your understanding on hearsay.

[bread_and_roses]

24. I think this is disingenuous

1. On the death penalty I will agree to disagree with you, but I will continue to believe that anything other than a complete end to this barbarism will continue in its' disproportionate racist implementation.

2. The point about medical marijuana is that if he is even unable to speak honestly about IT (to say it needs more study is ludicrous) he will never either understand or have the courage to address the way that drug laws are used against the minority community.

3. Dean's comments on civil liberties have been repeatedly posted on this board, why should I post them again?

I have watched Dean because I would like to support someone running his sort of campaign. It is his own words that make that impossible for me.

4. Don't worry about my shape, it's fine.

[MercutioATC]

28. I'd agree with you about MM if that's what Dean had said, but it isn't.

He believes the FDA, specifically, needs to do a study. In light of the fact that we ARE talking about an illegal substance here (and one for which we DO have legal synthetics) this doesn't seem unreasonable.

He doesn't want MORE testing, he wants a ruling from the FDA.

[Hep]

31. Fair enough.

Thanks for the clarification.

[MercutioATC]

14. In reply to your problems with Dean's positions:

1) The death penalty: I don't agree with him on this one, either.

2) Civil liberties: Dean is very sensitive to civil liberties. He's also mindful of the fact that there are flaws in the system that are frequently exploited. He's simply advocating minimizing the potential for abuse.

3) Medical marijuana: Dean isn't saying there hasn't been enough testing, he's saying that the one agency that HE feels needs to weigh in on the issue hasn't (the FDA). He wants the FDA to do a study and has said that he'll respect their determination. Medical marijuana has very little to do with racism, I believe what you're referring to is complete legalization of marijuana, which is another issue altogether.

I'm a supporter and I don't agree with every one of his positions. I DO feel, however, that he has realistic solutions to many problems and he sincerely does care about making a difference.

[Hep]

16. Decriminalization and legalization are two different horses

And are not an issue in this election cycle.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Dean opposes both horses. Not an issue?

I could understand medical marijuana not being an issue for young, healthy people who have no experience with chronic pain, but a doctor should know better.

Not an issue that huge numbers of Americans are in prison for drug possession?

Not an issue that the most popular drugs are alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana and the only one that DOESN'T kill is illegal?

Perhaps the reason these aren't issues to you is that taking them into consideration would cause you to have to question your support for Howard Dean.

[MercutioATC]

29. He does NOT oppose medical marijuana.

He simply wants an FDA opinion before he advocates legalizing an illegal substance for medical use. When legal synthetics exist, this doesn't seem to be a bad idea to me.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Look, if the FDA evaluated grass as food, it would be GRAS

(Generally Recognized As Safe) and thus acceptable because it's been used for centuries without any major safety concerns being raised.

If you had to take any of those "legal synthetics," as I do, you might begin to wonder if medical marijuana would be a better option. The legal drugs have some unpleasant side effects that I don't think marijuana has and the drug companies charge huge prices for them.

[Hep]

41. Except that it is NOT food

And there are lots of reasons why there SHOULD be an FDA study.

Medicine is not just about being safe. It's also about being effective. And therein lies the trouble. The curative properties of marijuana are based on levels of certain chemicals that VARY from crop to crop. There needs to be a study not only to guarantee the safety of the drug but also to develop a good stratey for implementation.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. If it works for someone, it's effective. Placebos are

effective for some. People VARY so much physiologically in the way they process drugs that physicians know one drug at one dose does not fit all.

[Hep]

50. Not the point

It's not about it working for some people ant not for others, it's about quality control of the active ingredient. It's not about working for everyone all of the time. It's about one pill working for Joe, and the next one NOT working for Joe because of significant difference in the levels of sctive ingredient.

This is the reson why lots of effective "homeopathic" remedies are not approved by the FDA.

[DemBones DemBones]

58. Ah, but "homeopathic" remedies are not illegal, are they?

They're not approved by the FDA because they're absolute bullshit from a scientific perspective and you can't get quality control in something that never does anything but evoke a placebo effect in susceptible people.

But they're not illegal so comparisons to marijuana are invalid.

[Hep]

66. Homeopathic remedies are NOT BS froma scientific perspective

And you really should watch the absolute language. "Never does anything but" is begging to be proven wrong.

Comparisons to marijuana are not invalid because of legality. That's just wishful thinking. The medicinal properties of a plant have nothing to do with the legality. And pot being illegal has a lot more to do with paper and textile industries than anything regarding medicine.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. Got degrees in science? I do. eom

[Hep]

72. Degrees in science?

How many pharmaceuticals have you gotten approved by the FDA?

You aren't really refuting my argument by questioning my education, are you? I mean, that would be pretty lame if that was what you are doing. You wouldn't want to make this about me instead of about the facts, would you?

I have no science degrees, but I know what I'm talking about.

I am very close with people who work with the FDA for a living.

[MercutioATC]

43. Yes, but ONLY the FDA can evaluate it as food...which is my point.

The FDA evaluates and classifies....well....food and drugs. That's their job and they're the ONLY agency that can legally do that. How can ANYBODY disagree with having them evaluate MM before making it an approved treatment?

Personally, I'm not against MM at all, if it's approved by the FDA. Hell, they approved cocaine use for dentistry and opiate use in prescription painkillers...I see no reason why they should have a problem approving the medical use of marijuana. The point is that the FDA is the only legal means of doing this. Let's just let them make a determination.

[Hep]

32. He opposes them?

Proof, please?

Clowning.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. Yes. He opposes medical marijuana until the FDA studies it,

which is just a delaying tactic that allows some people to believe he's progressive. And he supports the existing drug laws, which is the same as opposing recreational use of marijuana.

Prove that he supports medical marijuana and/or decriminalization of marijuana.

Clowning? What's that supposed to mean?

[Hep]

45. What a joke!

He opposes it until it is studied. And it can also be said that he favors it pending a study. What a load of CRAP.

Clowning means trivializing important issues by using them to attack a candidate wrongly.

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Wait. Has Dean said he "favors it pending a study"?

I don't think so.

[Hep]

52. It's the same thing.

Here's why the argument is stupid.

He doesn't favor or oppose it if he's calling for a study. He's reserving judgment until he gets more facts. You choose to spin it as his opposing it. That's fine if you have a quote. Can you show me the quote? Thanks!

[DemBones DemBones]

62. No! It is NOT the same thing, and as I suspected, you misspoke

by saying he favors it pending a study.

Quote? Try his webpage -- he's on record as "it should be studied" for a position on medical marijuana. I've heard him say it on television. Of course, things fall out of his mouth all the time without being connected to his brain. I just heard him say he was 21 when the first African-American was named to the Supreme Court. (Er, no, he'd have to have been born in 1970 for that to be true. In fact, he was FORTY-two at the time. Oh, well, forty is a multiple of twenty, right?)

[Hep]

68. Show me the quote!

I asked for a quote where he says "I OPPOSE". Why can't you provide it?

[DemBones DemBones]

51. Wait. Is it "not an issue" or "an important issue"

that shouldn't be trivialized?

[Hep]

54. It's an important issue in the long term

but in this election, it's a non issue.

[DemBones DemBones]

71. Who says you get to decide what's an issue? n/t

[Hep]

73. I'm not deciding, the people are deciding and I'm filling you in.

Just helping you out. You don't need to keep making it about me rather than the issues. Here, for your perusal:

http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm

Health Care, education, and the economy are the biggest issues. Medical marijuana is NOT.

[DemBones DemBones]

93. By that logic, nobody cares about civil rights, abortion, same-sex unions,

right to privacy, free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, etc.

Look through every poll on that page you linked to, they don't ask about any of those specific issues. Many do have a category called "Other" and it gets a lot of votes in most cases (exceptions are Fox News and WSJ, amusingly enough.) ("Their readers don't think outside the box" is what I get from that.)

CNN/USA Today/Gallup shows the top issue as being Economy at 32%, and second most important as "War issues in Iraq" at 18% -- yet 30% chose "Other." How many issues are being subsumed under "Other"? Only the poll respondents could tell us

It would also be logical for respondents concerned about medical marijuana to indicate greater concern about "Health care" or perhaps "Domestic issues," especially in, say, the Harris Poll, which has no "Other" choice.

By the way, you assert: "Health Care, education, and the economy are the biggest issues." Not quite.

The economy is judged important in all the polls you referred me to, but health care and education are not. Look at the numbers for each of the three in the polls and you'll see what I mean. Health care usually has a higher percentage of votes than education, but each of them is often only in single digits (4%, 7%, etc.)

Thanks for the link.

[MercutioATC]

47. I replied to the FDA approval issue in #43. As far as recreational use...

it's true, he opposes it...as do many. I agree that cigarettes and alcohol present greater health risks than marijuana (and are also "gateway drugs"). I don't, however, find this to be a persuasive argument for decriminalizing a harmful substance.

The illegal status of marijuana isn't a racial issue, it's the unequal application of drug law penalties that's racist. We can have equal enforcement, regardless of race, without decriminalizing marijuana. THAT'S the true root of the problem, and it extends to many more areas than drug enforcement. Decriminalizing marijuana won't make one whit of difference as far as unequal treatment in the courts is concerned.

[Hep]

56. So true

Thanks for pointing that out.

[Freddie Stubbs]

88. What does medical marijuana have to do with racism?

I fail to see the connection.

[beaconess]

10. I wonder if Dean asked Roman for advice on how to diversify his cabinet

n/t

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Doomsayer13]

85. by this logic

since Bush diversified his cabinet, he's a friend of minorities. Damn you strawman!

[mbali]

86. Trying to twist my logic won't justify Dean's poor record on diversity

unless you believe that the fact that Bush diversified his cabinet means that diversity is not a desirable goal that supposedly progressive civil rights proponents like Howard Dean should have pursued.

Using your logic, the fact that Bush paid tribute to Martin Luther King today means that Dean shouldn't acknowledge Dr. King's legacy. Of course, Dean didn't let Bush's behavior stop him from issuing a statement about Dr. King today, did it?

Here's a clue - the fact that Bush does something good does not automatically convert it into something bad that Democrats like Dean should avoid doing at all costs. And the last thing Dean needs to do is call attention to the fact that Bush has a better record of diversity in his cabinet than Dean did.

[Doomsayer13]

87. My "logic" is that these things aren't black and white

Pun not intended.

Since when did I say that Democrats should define themselves in opposition to Bush in every way? Where did I say that, I'd like to know. I also did not say that diveristy wasn't a desirable goal, my insinuation is that just because somebody diversifies their cabinet, like Bush did, doesn't make him a Race Hero. Bush paying tribute to MLK doesn't make him better on race, and Dean having a all white cabinet doesn't automatically mean that has have a bad record on race. There are other issues to take into consideration here, like the fact that Vermont is the most white state in the United States (96%), and cabinet positions are usually reserved for former politicians who've worked in certain fields. Since there is not ethnic base for a black or minority candidate to enter the state house from, it's not surprising that Dean's cabinet wasn't that ethnically diverse. It represented the demographics of the state! Why don't you try digging up actual Dean administration fallacies on the issue of race, statements he made during the campaign that suggest that he has a poor record on race, then I might be more inclinded to believe you. Until then, stop it with the strawmen, it's real tiring.

BTW, I'm not a Dean supporter. for the record.

[mbali]

89. It's not black and white, but your logic still makes no sense

You are correct that having a diverse cabinet does not make them a - as you call it "Race Hero." But that does not lead to the conclusion that failure to do so means nothing and cannot be called into question.

Howard Dean consistently positions himself as some kind of a "race hero." But he has done nothing to earn this mantle. Yes, Vermont is majority white. But your assumption that his cabinet represented the demographics of the state is not accurate and is not a justifiable reason for Dean's failure to attempt diversity.

The reality is that putting one minority in his cabinet would have meant that minorities were overrepresented in his cabinet, at least in proportion to the pure numbers in the state. But why is it such a wacky idea for minorities to be overrepresented by the presence of a single minority in the cabinet, when the alternative is no representation at all. It's interesting that, as it stood, whites were overrepresented and minorities underrepresented in the cabinet and you seem to have no problem with that.

The very gravaman of affirmative action is to get away from these kinds of comfortable acquiescences to the status quo - a status quo that, absent some additional effort (i.e. affirmative action will result in a perpetuation of a woeful dearth of minorities in positions of influence. Someone who seems to be as eager to lecture the rest of us as Howard Dean is should understand that. But it sounds as if he thinks affirmative action is just great for everybody else, but was just too much trouble for him to make any effort to implement.

Moreover, affirmative action is more than about exactly reflecting a broader demographic. It helps to educate, offer diverse ranges of views and sends a powerful message. A governor's cabinet is a valuable tool for advice and counsel. Do you really believe that because Vermont has a small minority percentage, Dean could not possibly have benefited from having the advice and counsel from a cabinet member of a different race than him. Do you think he ever thought it strange that when he made decisions that affected the lives of his constituents - including thousands of minorities - there were no people of color in the cabinet room offering a point of view?

Perhaps Dean doesn't understand that affirmative action takes effort. If simply hanging a "help wanted" sign on the door would result in a perfectly diverse applicant pool beating a path to the door, we wouldn't even need affirmative action. Affirmative action takes commitment and effort, and Howard Dean's appointment process involved neither. If Howard Dean had wanted a diversified cabinet, he would have had one. Falling back on the old tired excuse of "I couldn't find anybody," is bullshit and a particularly pathetic excuse for someone who claims to be so forward-thinking on race.

[Doomsayer13]

90. Affirmative Action

Affirmative Action is more than diverse representation. The underlying idea behind Affirmative Action is that diversity can be encouraged without having to give up any qualifications in the process - that is that there are plenty of minority men and women who are just as qualified as white people to serve in various positions, whether they be cabinet or otherwise. Looking at Vermont demographic, 4% of the population are non-white. A majority of this minority would be Hispanics in the service industry, reflecting the overall demographic of the United State. Assuming that Dean wouldn't appoint anybody in the service industry, the other few precentage points of a small state would have to contain an individual who not only has the proper beauracratic qualifications for a top position in government, but also an established name is a respective feild that that particular department had to deal with, substancial experience, and be just as qualfied for the job as anybody else Dean might pick who was white. Now, as I said before, Vermont is a very white state and just the sheer demographics of the state makes it so that minorities don't make it into he statehouse and don't have a chance to establish themselves.

Now if Dean had passed up a qualified minority on a cabinet shortlist, there would be grounds to question his dedication to affirmative action. But there is no evidence that there were even qualfied candidates to begin with. Affirmative Action works on the notion that racism is inherent in the system and that there are just as qualfied Asian, Black, Hispanic, and other people in line for the job. These qualfications shouldn't be sacrificed as political token, especially when the state demographics dont allow for any established minority to rise in any respective field. Had Dean been the governor of New York, and California, I'm sure he would've had a diverse cabinet because there would be naturally a large feild of qualfied minority professionals to choose from.

[beaconess]

91. So, you're saying

that there is not a single qualified person of color in all the state of Vermont who could have held a position in Dean's cabinet? You don't believe that, had Dean really really tried, he couldn't have found any qualified minority?

Sorry, but that's bullshit. And it's the same bullshit excuse we've been hearing from years to justify discrimination and lack of diversity in the workplace.

You say there's "no evidence that there were even any qualified candidates to begin with." What you don't say is that there is also no evidence that there were not any qualified candidates either. But, you seem to be perfectly comfortable with the presumption of lack of qualifications, an pressumption based. not upon any objective facts, but upon an assumption. If the people doing the hiring start with the presumption that there aren't any qualified minorities, while assuming that there are plenty of qualified whites, they are raising the bar for minorities, forcing them to overcome an presumption of unfitness that whites do not have to face.

Moreover, even if your argument were true, it reveals a deeper problem. If there are no qualified people in the pipeline, isn't that a problem in and of itself? Why weren't there any qualified people of color in the ranks? After all, that's where people get their experience. The white folks managed to garner experience and had to start somewhere - they weren't born experts in the field. How did they manage to get in the door, develop experience,and move up in the ranks, but minorities didn't? Could there have been racism and bias and discrimination at work in the lower ranks that held back minorities who weren't given opportunities to get develop the requisite background and then were slapped down by the age-old Catch-22 because they didn't have the right background?

This entire incident demonstrates why affirmative action is still necessary in our society. And it also demonstrates why Howard Dean may not be the one to lead the fight.

[Doomsayer13]

92. Why don't you prove me wrong

Out of the 1-2% of the minorities in Vermont not in the service industry, what are the chances that a single one of them could attain substancial political and beauracratic experience? Affirmative Action may be necessary, but politicians and employers shouldn't go about appointing and hiring minorities just for the sake of having a minority. The focus should be on fixing innercity schools, making it so that Affirmative Action is not necessary in todays society.

In terms of qualfied candidates, I'm saying that the amount of minorities in Vermont is so small (it being the 49th smallest state in the union) and even still the amount of minorities who are established members of various beauracracies and government fields even smaller that it is concievable that there simply weren't any qualfied candidates for top level government positions, not to the level of the huge pool of white people Dean had to choose from. Again, you can prove me wrong here by showing me that there were actual candidates, actual short list names, actual people who could've filled these position who were of color. Then I'd believe you and rescind my argument, but as of now, judging by the Demographics of the state, it being almost universally white and rural, I have a hard time believing that Dean would intentionally pass up qualfied candidates of color simply becuase there didn't seem to be that many.

True, I didn't say that there were not any evidence that there were no cadidates viable to fill cabinet positions. But I'm not the one accusing Dean of being poor on race and diversity issues, you are. If you want to convince someone like me, a fence rider (who's leaning for Clark) you'll have to provide evidence to back up your claim that Dean looked over qualified minorities for his cabinet. I shouldn't have to prove to you that he had no choice, given that I'm not making any accusationsn for or against him.

[beaconess]

95. I don't need to prove you wrong-Dean needs to convince ME of his

commitment to diversity and affirmative action, among other things. He's running for president and is holding himself out as a strong proponent of these issues that I care about. It's not my job to conclusively prove that he didn't walk his talk - it's his job to show me that he did.

If Howard Dean wants to be taken seriously as an effective leader on civil rights, he needs to show why he's qualified for the position. So far, he's not doing a very good job of it.

[beaconess]

75. kick

[Alex146]

80. I betting Bush

didn't room with any blacks in his days at Yale...

[DemBones DemBones]

94. Yet he has blacks in his Cabinet.

What would count for more with most black voters -- having black roomies (for one year only) in college nearly forty years ago, or selecting blacks to work with you in the past few years?

[beaconess]

96. Good point.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing about this black roommate. It's nice that Dean had one and it's commendable that he asked for one, but enough already. I find it interesting that he is so quick to point out that he asked for a black roommate as proof that he is committed to civil rights yet downplays the fact that he didn't reach out to include minorities in his cabinet as if it's no big deal.

Funny - when Dean thought it was to his benefit, he made a special attempt to reach out and ask for a black roommate. But he apparently expended no special effort to diversify his cabinet as governor. As a college student, he seemed to understand that interacting with a black person would broaden his experience; I wonder why he didn't seem to think that his performance as governor would be enhanced by having the input and perspective of someone other than white people in his cabinet.

So, enough about the black roommate, already. While the opportunity to room with you was no doubt a great thing for your roommate, I'm much more interested in hearing about what attempts you made to provide opportunties to minorities in your cabinet as governor.

[bearfartinthewoods]

100. i wonder if he is on retainer too, like CMB?