Is There Anybody Here That Has Not Made Up Their Mind?

[DrFunkenstein]

I'm just wondering how flexible people are between the candidates. It seems that nearly everybody has picked a side, and will defend that candidate to the death. Is there anybody here that is not 100%?

I bring it up because I wonder what we mean to accomplish by coming back to the campaign forum day after day.

Is it to make connections with fellow supporters?

Try to spread the message?

Make the campaign accessible to others?

Undermine the opposition?

Sharpen your debate skills?

Learn more about your candidate?

Learn how others feel about the candidates?

These are just a few reasons off the top of my head. I am sure there are many more, but I wanted to learn what people brought to the forum and what brought them to the forum. It's something to think about while we go back and forth along the trenches. Some other things to think about:

What effect does your arguments have on the person you are debating?

What effect does it have on people observing the exchange?

What effect does it have on the perception of your candidate's supporters?

What effect does it have on the perception of the Democratic party?

[Ediacara]

1. I am not Dean or Green

I like Kerry, Graham, Clark, and Gephardt too. I just think that Dean is the best candidate, and the most likely to have the biggest win. Whoever wins the nom, which WILL be one of the people I named, has my vote, I just hope to push the nom to Dean.

[tpub]

2. I used to come post here, and now

I mostly come to read.

I'm 100% behind Kerry, but I'm also an ABB person. However, I don't believe that means if it's Bush vs. a gerbil I vote for the gerbil. I believe that whoever the gets the Dem. nomination is going to be worth electing.

As much as I like Dean, I am totally turned off by the people who constantly post the same crappy pessimistic rhetoric over and over and over and over again. The same goes for the Kerry people.

IMHO, the more those people post here, the less effect their arguments are having.

[DrFunkenstein]

15. The Ignore Button Works Wonders On The Relentlessly Negative

I only have one person on ignore, and it makes everything so much nicer. No need to listen to someone whose only purpose is to tear other candidates down.

My philosphy is that you don't get taller by cutting other people down.

[tpub]

16. I'm much too nosy to ignore anyone--n/t

[DrFunkenstein]

18. LOL - The Temptation Is Great

But my ulcer thinks I made the right decision.

[CarlBallard]

19. Don't underestimate gerbil

She's cute, fuzzy and pretty good on the issues. :evilgrin:

[tameszu]

29. Well said, but the gerbil

looks mighty tempting right now.

Hmm...gerbil...would be better than a monkey, wouldn't it?

[since72]

35. Do you read "Get Fuzzy"?

Monkey, Monkey, Monkey I want to eat a monkey.
Just wondering.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

3. I have not yet made up my mind.

I will not do so until the battle is truly joined. Right now, it seems to me that everyone is warming up and stretching.

I want to hear someone really adress the economic mess, express workable solutions, and adress economic justice in this ferschlugganah country, unambiguously. I also want to hear a LOT more verbal gutting of this pissant maladministration. Lots more.

I want to see someone with the guts to speak up and get squarely in the faces of the maladmin and especially Rove.

[quinnox]

4. I was at first strongly behind

Edwards. But then I saw him give a terrible account of himself on a Hardball show, it didn't seem he was ready for primetime, and I looked at other candidates. I then started to like Kerry, and the more I looked into his record and what he stands for, the better I liked him. I also like Gephardt too, but I am realistic about it in that I know he wouldn't have as good a shot in the general election as Kerry, or for that matter Edwards. After seeing Edwards a few times after that on television, I have noticed he has gotten much better, and now I again think of him as one of the best candidates to take out President Bush. But I still like Kerry even better, and I think his chance is just as great as Edwards to win.

My top priority is to win against Bush, this is critically important for the future of this nation. Luckily, all the candidates are a fine bunch this year, so there doesn't have to be a whole lot of compromise in selecting a candidate with electability in mind. Of course, you will never get a candidate who is perfect, so you choose one with the closest positions that you like and also keep in mind the pragmatic approach, how will they do in an election vs the opposition, in this case Mr. Bush.

In my opinion, it makes no sense to pick a candidate who has little or no chance to beat the opponent.

[gristy]

5. I'm voting

democratic, definitely democratic.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Excellent Point About Compromise

I know we all make like our personal choice is miles ahead of the others, but think about this:

Almost all the candidates are supporting

-universal health care
-a major commitment to renewable energy
-a strong reproductive rights platform
-the legal standing of civil unions
-major revisions to the Patriot Act
-booting Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, and the rest of the pirates

And so on. I mean, universal health care has been a dream of mine. And virtually no matter who we vote for, we are going to get it! That is awesome!

[Ishkaboogl]

36. ditto

i feel the same way. right now i'm looking at people that could beat bush, with the secondary concern of "me liking them." right now i'm looking at edwards, graham, and clark, although i haven't ruled dean out. if i chose based on the "me liking them" factor, i'd be firmly in the kerry camp. he's a superstar, but i can't see him beating bush. i think graham or clark would be our best shot, with the other as the vp, or with edwards as a vp. im not sure about edwards as prez, but i think he would have a better shot than kerry. on the plus side with edwards, i know a lot of female political junkies who get wet every time they see edwards. kinda like kennedy.

[tpub]

41. I'm surprised that you think

Kerry couldn't beat Bush. I feel exactly the opposite. I'm very happy to have a candidate who I like and who I feel could beat the pants off Bush.

[dajabr]

6. I come to this forum...

Because I think they are sick of us in GD :-)

and:

To make connections with fellow supporters - especially when there is something "Big" going on in DeanLand.

To learn more about ALL the candidates.

And, a little bit to learn how others feel about the candidates.

I don't think I argue - mostly consider it playing defense.

[AntiCoup2K4]

7. I'm about halfway there

Dean, Kerry, and Edwards are the three that I think have the best shot of beating Bush Jr. I'm currently leaning towards Dean because I have a total distrust of Skull & Bones (after three criminal generations of them courtesy of Bush & Friends), and also believe that it's time we had a President who was NOT from the South. One region of the country should not completely dominate politics the way that corner of the nation has. Still, I would support either of these three if they were the nominee.

Holy Joe - way too conservative, and too friendly to the PNAC agenda.
Gephardt - too spineless in recent years. Deserves a lot of blame for the mid term fiasco.
Graham - could easily be a front runner if he busts this coverup wide open. Go for it Bob!
Sharpton - No political experience. He should try for another office first.
Mosely - Braun - A liberal black woman in the current fiasco of a political climate?? Ain't gonna happen. Wait until we get Congress back :evilgrin:

Kucinich - May be one of the best candiates for the job, if only his name were Dennis Smith (or whatever). Like it or not, and I don't, the history of candidates with names like "Dukakis" and "Tsongas" is a good indicator that he doesn't have a chance in Hell in the media soundbyte corporate news driven campaign. :-( And a repeat of 1988 is absolutely NOT an option. This country cannot afford a legitimately elected Bush Jr with 4 years to do whatever the fuck he wants, accountable to nobody.

Wesley Clark - Might be a great candidate, but he needs to make up his mind already.

DISCLAIMER: these are merely my opinions. Take them however you like, but they aren't meant as a slam against supporters of any candidate.

Except Junior, of course :evilgrin:

[CWebster]

8. Kerry fans

are an effective means of driving folks into the Dean camp.

Heh-heh ;-)

[Nicholas_J]

11. Dean himself

Is becoming an effective means of driving people into the Kerry camp.

His "INCREMENTAL HEALTH CARE" has likely just cost him a large portion of those who supported him.

[MercutioATC]

14. Your posts are geting more desperate, Nick...

I've noticed an inverse relationship between Dean's fundraising and poll numbers and the complexity of your posts. The more support he gains, the more simplistic your posts get.

He's advocating the SAME health care plan that he started with. How is this "cost(ing) him a large portion of those who supported him"? If they were comfortable with it before, why have they suddenly changed their minds?

It's THESE posts that lose you audience share, Nick. Post anti-Dean stuff out the wazoo if it makes you happy...just try to make some sense occasionally...


Oh, and I'm adding another $1 to the Dean campaign for the most nonsensical post I've read in a long time...

[AmyStrange]

34. Donating a dollar too...

woohooo. Personally I hope Nin_Ja keeps posting his innane crap. It helps the Dean campaign to rake in the cash.

Although I do agree that he should post something that makes sense every once in a while,






Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Booberdawg]

9. I haven't

made up my mind. To be honest, I'm willing to compromise on individual issues to get the one candidate who can beat bush. I think that is Kerry, but it's early yet.

Linda

[LewisJackson]

10. Completely undecided

Was first for Dean, then Kucinich, then Kerry, then Gephardt, then Kerry again, Dean again......etc. etc.

Currently, I really don't know who. I've almost been thinking about not campaigning for anybody before the primaries and just vote for the D come next November. But, hey, we'll see what happens.

[ilpostino]

12. Bottom line

I've beeen waiting for Kerry to run since he first burst on the scene as Vietnam war hero turned anti-war protestor (all insidious revisionism aside, that's exactly what he did and those of us who were there know it and know how important that was to legitimizing the movement. Period. End of story), but if he falters, I'm ready to go Dean, Graham (MUCH to my surprise), Edwards, Gephart....even Leiberman. Bottom line: what is must be what was.

[tpub]

17. ilpostino, glad to have you with us!

:hi:

Graham's my choice for VP. Let's (re)take FLA!

[NewJerseyDem]

20. I don't like any of the candidates

I think that they are all 100 times better than Bush, but none of them impress me very much. I guess right now Edwards seems like the best but it changes for me every few weeks. I have supported Graham, Kerry, Dean, and Gephardt in the past. But, I really wish there was someone else in the race that was better. I think that if Wesley Clark got in I would support him and MAYBE even Joe Biden. Generally, I just think that these 9 aren't the best the democrats to do the job of beating Bush.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Which Democrat Would You Draft?

Is there someone you think could do a better job, but isn't mentioned?

[NewJerseyDem]

30. Some possibilities

Chris Dodd-
He was considering a run for president and he seems like a pretty good guy. Still, I don't think that he would be the best candidate to beat Bush.

Dick Durbin-
I think that he is pretty good senator but he has the same problem as Dodd- he probably can't win.

Tom Harkin-
He is pretty liberal and has shown the ability to win in swing states since he has won many times in Iowa. He ran for president before but lost. Was it 1988 or 1992?

Kent Conrad-
He seems to have the right amount of moderation and liberalism to possibly win. I think that he, Byron Dorgan, and Tim Johnson all could be good candidates and have also been able to win in traditionally republican areas.

The biggest problem is that the democrats have been struggling when it comes to governors. Since 1994 we have had a lacking in numbers but after the 2002 elections I think that there will be more for the 2008 and 2012 elections.

[CarlBallard]

22. Who I want isn't running

And if Clark doesn't run, I'm still undecided as to who's my number two. Probably Kerry at the moment. Then Dean. Then Graham. Edwards has fallen off my radar, and I didn't think Kucinich or Sharpton were electable, but the more I hear them the more I like them. Gephart's not great but he is good on labor. And I like Lieberman more than most DUers, but that isn't high praise. So basically I'm still undecided.

[mndemocrat_29]

23. Why I came

I initially came to discuss upcoming congressional, gubernatorial, and state constitutional races. Since then, I've come to enjoy the debates on issues, the presidential race, and other general discussions. This is one of the greatest examples of free speech I've ever seen (kudos to all that post here). I don't use the ignore option, because I feel it's important to hear all arguments, even if you don't agree with the other person. By knowing how to answer an opposing view, I feel that I can become more knowledgable with my own views.

On your other point, I support Kerry (I've sent my contribution), but I also really like Bob Graham and Wesley Clark (along with Al Gore). I consider myself decided, but I'm not 100 percent behind Kerry. I do have a couple of problems with his candidacy, and until those problems become ironed out, I can't fully support him (though if I were to cast a vote in a primary, I'd select Kerry). Whomever is the Democratic nominee I will support 150 percent. However, until Kerry irons out those issues, I consider myself "Backing a candidate, while still keeping my options open."

[acerbic]

24. I am

I tend to lean towards the candidates whose supporters use the least slander and lies to attack other Democrats. Whether the candidate is centrist, left or far-left is less important. So far Kerry and Kucinich aren't doing very well according to my scale...

[George_Bonanza]

25. Kerry? Slander?

To my knowledge, Kerry hasn't been very slanderous to his opponents. The person he's been most critical of is George W. Bush. Sure, Kerry has fired some retorts and self-promotions, but who doesn't?

Not trying to fan the flames, but the candidate who would score lowest on your scale would be Howard Dean. His fiery spirit has caused him to badmouth his mates, often resulting in his regret later on.

I'm firm in my belief in Kerry. As soon as I started reading up on him, I had this feeling in my gut that this was the guy for me. This is really the first election that I've thoroughly followed. And every setback I've experienced as a Kerry supporter has been rebutted and only increased my rooting for him.

[acerbic]

31. Try reading again:

"...the candidates whose supporters use the least slander and lies to attack other Democrats." Check out the threads in this forum...

To my knowledge, Kerry hasn't been very slanderous to his opponents.

[VoteClark]

26. I support Clark, but since he is not in the race yet

I would support Kerry. However, I would support Gore first over Kerry and Hillary over Gore and Kerry.

I only think Clark, Hillary, Gore, and Kerry have the ability to beat Bush in 2004 at this point.

If we can't get either of these four then we should nominate Sharpton. If we are going to lose, well let us have some fun in the debates and watch Bush debate Sharpton, that would be a riot. Sharpton would kick his butt, but would lose badly in the election. Nobody would attach Sharpton the Democratic party as a whole and they could vote for Democratic members of the House and Senate to balance the power in DC.

J4Clark

[George_Bonanza]

27. I would love to see Al Sharpton in a national debate

No doubt he's a witty and vibrant orator. I have one of his quotes as my signature, after all.

[ModerateMiddle]

28. couple of reasons

I am not deadset on anyone yet, but I'm leaning mostly towards Kerry for a number of reasons.

But I come here because General Discussion is too vicious for me. You get that here too, but not quite as much. Plus, GD goes so fast that you have to practically live online in order to maintain your participation in a particular discussion. Here, a topic will hang around for several days, maybe weeks.

I started off really excited about Dean - back when he first went before Russert on MTP. He sounded good. His attitude towards civil unions and health care really impressed me. He was also one of the first folks to really hammer on Bush, and it just sounded so good to our ears, to finally have someone speaking what was in our hearts about this imposter in the White House.

But he went harshly negative against the other Dems, and frequently, he had his facts wrong. And when he didn't have his facts wrong, he implied things that simply weren't true, like that the Senators voted FOR Bush's big tax cut this year because they voted to LIMIT the tax cuts to $350bn. So I was starting to doubt him, and then with the "I suppose that's a good thing", my jaw dropped. I think maybe that line exemplifies for me Howard Dean. He is so single minded in his focus that he can't even see anyone else's viewpoint, or at least he won't admit anyone else has a good point to make. That's simply ridiculous. More and more I started to see his *attitude* as being more like George Bush. Arrogant, stubborn as in "I am right, I know best, and when I make the decision, you will all SEE just how right I am."

I want a leader in the White House. By leader, I don't mean someone who will take us in a direction and we HAVE to follow because we have no other choice (sorta like folks lining up behind W. after 9/11 because he was the only president we had). I want someone who can present an honest and thought out position and convince us all that this is the best way to go.

Like when I see those "United We Stand" bumper stickers around here (colorado springs) - I want to tell those people that UNITED means that we all really do AGREE on our direction, not that we unite behind a direction we doubt just to stay united - that's not strength.

I think all of the candidates bring something positive to the table and to the discussions. There are a few I don't want to have as president - Dean is one of them - because of his arrogance. Gephardt because I don't want the entire tax cut reversed simply to pay for health insurance 60% or more of which we already have. Lieberman I don't want because I can't stand his voice, and therefore don't listen to him long enough to really hear his positions. The most powerful country in the world CAN'T be led by someone who sounds like he's whining all the time.

I really liked listening to Dennis Kucinich talk before he started to run for President. Now, all I can hear is how the country is in NO WAY ready for the things that he wants, and some of them, I am not ready for either. In many ways I am much more realistic than I am idealistic. His anti-business rhetoric grates on me. Not all business people are Ken Lay. Many of them are hard working folks who took a risk and started their own businesses and work really hard and were lucky enough to have them suceed. I don't hate business people. Nor do I think they are responsible for everything that we want to have and do in this country.

I lean towards Kerry because I think he has the mental agility to juggle all of the various needs this country has. I don't think he'll focus on one particular thing to the detriment of all other needs or issues. I think he is willing and able to learn from those who are expert, and then assimilate the information to form his own judgements and opinions. I think his military past - both medal earning in country in Nam and his anti-war activities after coming home represent that balance that we need in the White House right now - someone who knows what it is like to engage militarily, but understands too that sometimes it is necessary.

I think Kerry understands that part of our insane foreign policy with regard to the Middle East has to do with our energy dependence on ME oil. I think he realizes that more exploration and development in this country is only putting off for a few years the inevitable - that we HAVE to develop alternate sources of energy. I think he realizes that the way to really address affirmative action and racial disparaties in this country is to fix things at the early child hood level. I love his proposals for service.

Hmm. I sound more convinced than I said, huh? Maybe I am.

One of the reasons I come here is because I am trying to understand the Dean phenomenon. I do understand relating to the anger at the Bush administration and some of the horrible policies he has put into place. I also understand hating with a passion Bush's march to war. I can relate to the anger. What mystifies me is why people seem to think that what they want to replace Bush is someone who is that angry. I mean, Bush got a huge amount of his support from people who HATED Clinton, and he has run the country with an "ABC" (Anything but Clinton") attitude. I think Dean would do the same thing - only Anything But Bush. As Bush focused obsessively on Tax Cuts - I fear Dean will focus obsessively on balanced budgets. Both have their merits, and neither is the ultimate panacea to what's ailing us right now.

What I want more than anything is to have a President next term who truly can unite this country - we are split so badly, with so much anger and vitriol, that I think we need someone who can heal us. And I don't see that being Howard Dean. I think he is playing off the split in this country, and would damage us further with his angry partisanship. I do believe in that "United We Stand", I just think we need someone who can provide the leadership so that we CAN stand united behind him (or her).

[George_Bonanza]

37. Bravo Kplongco!

If I was undecided and I read your post, you would've done a great job in convincing me Kerry was the way to go. Of course, I made up my mind awhile ago, but it was a great read nonetheless.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about Dean. You've got to admire the guy's fighting spirit, but at times, he seems like a more liberal version of Bush. No matter how many mistakes and regrets he makes, the people still love him for his approach, rather than his message, just like Bush.

[tpub]

42. thank you for taking the time

to write this.

It's an eloquent explanation of the way I feel, too.

[msanger]

32. I donate to Kean

Actually, I donate to Dean, but really like thinking about some of the ads Kerry could run. If Kerry had Dean's campaign manager, it would all be over but the fat lady singing.

But honestly, I'm abb. actually

[Egnever]

33. My mind is made up!

However I am hungry for all information on the candidates. The primaries are still a ways off and anyone could surge forward and take this thing. I am ABB in the end so it really doesnt matter in the end who gets the nod they will get my vote. Most of the other "electable" candidates just dont motivate me enough to put the leather to the asphalt though. I will however want to know thier platforms for every day discussion with friends family message boards etc....

This forum has a lot of garage in it but it also has a lot of gems. Tinuene(sp?) just made a post on kucinich that is an example of one of the gems. A veritable one stop shop on Denis and his positions.

[LWolf]

40. That's where I am.

I have a favorite; there are some that I couldn't support without holding my nose.

While I've chosen a candidate and am working for him, I want to pay attention to all candidates, and remain open. If my candidate suddenly decided to go another way, and took a position I couldn't support, I'd change my mind. If I found another candidate that more closely matched where I am on the issues, I would switch.

So I pay attention to the threads that offer info on other candidates. Twice (total) I've countered a claim made by the supporter of another candidate, because I knew it to be misleading. A few times, I've felt the need to defend the negative, chest-thumping attacks on my candidate. Mostly I ignore them. And if that's the only thing a poster seems to offer; just chest-beating and opponent attacking, I sometimes officially "ignore" them. It doesn't add to the debate.

In reality, the people we need to reach are the swing voters. Those here at DU will pay enough attention that they probably don't need our help deciding on a candidate, and will ask if they do. Discussing platforms, and the pros and cons of various candidates, helps prepare us for discussions outside of DU. And so, they are valuable.

[election_2004]

38. I haven't picked a favorite yet...

The "grusome threesome" (as I call them) whom I would never support or vote for in a General Election are Gore, Lieberman, and Hillary.

Everyone else has their strengths and weaknesses, but I'd enthusiastically and passionately campaign for Dean, Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, Kucinich, and Graham without hesitation (I'm not including Sharpton or Moseley-Braun, because they have zero chance of winning the nomination).

[mcd1982]

39. I am...

very open minded about the race and have not fully committed to anyone. I have given money to Sen. Edwards -- but that was because he had a fundraiser in Dallas and you could get in for $10 -- so my boss and I went drove to Dallas for the weekend to meet him! However, I probably would have gone to see any of the candidates.

But, I think I like Bob Graham A LOT! But, being a poor college student with car troubles, I haven't been able to send him money yet! :-(

But basically, I am waiting for the Primaries to come around before my final decision is made. The Texas primary is the first week in March, I believe -- and some candidates will probably have dropped out by then, thus effecting my decision!

But, I would support Mickey Mouse if he ran on the Democratic ticket, thus truly making me a Southern Yellow Dog Democrat! :-)

Matthew