Even if the Non-Dean D wins the GE in 2004, D's will see their own demise

[Hep]

None of the others are doing a damn thing to get people interested in politics. Sure, they might get out the vote, but it will be for nothing in the long run.

Dean has people becoming active on a precinct level. Dean' has people UNDERSTANDING what taking back our party means. It means a higher commitment to our party. It means a shared responsibility. It means putting our effort where our votes are.

And no one else gets it. Hell, many Dean supporters don't get it.

[CMT]

1. I'm already get the sense that if Dean withdrawls

that many of his core supporters (and they still are a large minority)will not easily go to another candidate. The constant attacks on Dean by the corporate media and the DLC types have really left a sour taste in many supporters mouths. The dancing on his grave in Iowa and the carping about his speech Monday night didn't help either.

[boxster]

4. So, how does that help the Democratic Party?

Ok, so Dean and his supporters only want to take back the Democratic Party if Dean can be President? That's stupid.

If Dean and his supporters are so damn concerned about "taking back the party", then they should actually DO something for the party and not just themselves. This self-centered "my supporters aren't transferable" stuff Dean has said in the recent past (and many of his supporters parroting that belief) certainly is not indicative of someone who wants to unite the party. In fact, it's indicative of just the opposite.

[CMT]

5. that isn't it

it is how the media with the active support of the DLC sought out to destroy Dean--even now after his loss in Iowa they are focused on destroying him further until he gets out of the race. There are so many other candidates but the media only wants to concentrate on Dean. I've always considered myself ABB in November, but this primary battle have not left me happy about any of the candidates left. I will no doubt end up voting for the nominee, but I doubt I will do much in terms of donating money or time to help them.

[emulatorloo]

15. The media dumps on all the Dems. Let's get used to it.

Gov. Dean is not the sole victim of a "go for the ratings" media.

They dump on DK by ignoring him or portraying him as granola.

John Kerry had not even finished his Iowa victory speech before Tweety started trashing him.

They don't let Clark answer questions.

The media want to make everything seem dramatic, "good television," so their emphasis is shallow.

[Hep]

21. Dean is not the sole victim

But he is the most attacked. Even after his finish in Iowa.

Let's NOT get used to it for FUCKS SAKE. Let's take control and fight back. As long as we GET USED TO IT, we'll never have control of our own destiny. You'd better learn this, you'd better understand, or we're in serious trouble.

[emulatorloo]

23. Dean handed them the Bat to attack him with

and my point was only that he is not the only one attacked. And don't tell me I don't understand that I must fight the media and swear at me, because I do indeed understand.

I will never ever ever ever ever stop fighting the right wing w the limited resources I have, and I would never ever ever swear at another democrat the way you just did.

However, what I am increasingly seeing is a message put out that Dean supporters won't keep fighting GWB if their candidate doesn't win the nomination. I believe that this is the minority of Dean supporters, and that keeps me optimistic.

ON edit: layout, grammar

[Hep]

26. Dean handed them nothing.

Claiming that this is self inflicted is way off base. You should read the thread below about a Dean supporter's response to the media. I think you will find it enlightening.

If Dean doesn't win the nomination, many Dean supporters will have nothing to fight for. Voting for anyone else is like waving the white flag. I'll vote straight ticket D, because it allows me to vote for Kerry or Clark or Edwards without actually having to put a mark next to their names, which I might not be able to handle.

But the fight will be lost. The party will still fall apart. And that's why Dean supporters don't care that much. We know that voting ABB won't stave off the end of our party. It won't even delay it. Because while we're fighting THAT fight, the right wing will be attacking us on many other fronts, and D's won't even know it's happening. All this time we've been going after Bush, and meanwhile, the right wing has secured for themselves a republican house until 2011.

And D's STILL don't know it. They STILL don't do anything about it. They're still supporting candidates who DON'T CARE enough to point it out to you. Many Dean supporters get it. Not enough though.

[emulatorloo]

38. I don't need enlightening

It was a dumb thing to do. . .and it will be forgotten soon enough. Dean is a excellent man who still has a viable campaign. The media are vultures. They will be on to some other piece of meat (Kerry, Kobe, whatever) in a day or so.

But if Dean doesn't make it, Kerry Clark Edwards are all excellent candidates, all capable of carrying forth and following through on the message of the Democratic Party. At every one of their campaign headquarters there are people, young ones too, people new to the process, fighting to make a difference, getting involved in local politics, working for a better future. Many posters will have many answers to this about how horrible K, C and E are and not worth supporting, mostly based on oversimplification or obstinance. But each of them are fighters for the Democratic party and the values of the Democratic Party. Howard Dean doesn't have a monopoly on the message of the Democratic Party, or on supporters who are active locally.

The fight is only lost if people stop fighting, imagining that their candidate is the only thing worth fighting for. I know that is not what you're advocating. But that's what I'm seeing advocated by some folks who can't or won't look at the consequences of another term w GWB. Or believe somehow that those consequences will be good.

[Hep]

40. Man, I live in Edwards's STATE

don't tell me that his supporters are getting active. They're not. I've worked beside them at events, and it's like they're volunteering for high school extra credit. In late and out early and not an ounce of substance.

People stopped fighting years ago. That's why we're as screwed as we are.

[boxster]

27. But, Dean shares no responsibility for that whatsoever?

I'm sorry, but Dean is the same guy that attacks his fellow candidates and fellow Democrats with regularity. Whether it's thinly-veiled threats like the dumb "cockroaches" remark or claiming Wesley Clark was a Republican 25 days before a debate, Dean most certainly hasn't been Edwards-lite, to coin a phrase.

Dean is as responsible for his decline as anyone. He spent millions of dollars getting the message out in Iowa, yet lost by 20% to Kerry. Have you considered that maybe people in Iowa and elsewhere like the message but just don't like the messenger?

The media had very little to do with initial reaction to Dean's post-caucus speech. Many initial reactions were voiced well before there had been one iota of media coverage. I didn't need the media to tell me that a screaming fit wasn't exactly presidential.

[Hep]

33. Be a TOOL of the media if you want, but you're doing no good.

Still on the cockroaches thing. When you focus on that and not what he was talking about. When you engage in misinterpretations, you're fighting against us. Read the thread below, called a Dean Supporters take on the media.

This isn't about Iowa. Bringing that up is missing the point. This is about your street. Your neighborhood, and what you are doing to fight the right wing in your own front yard.

The media is playing games, and you're more interesting in participating in the game than you are in fighting the fight. That's fine, but you needto at least be aware of it.

If you think Dean was unpresidential, then by default you think the likes of Teddy Roosevelt weren't presidential. That he didn't conform to your ideal of presidential impressed me more than anything. That you HAVE standards for presidentiality that involve inflection, style of dress, or anything of the sort reflects a political shallowness that makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck.

[boxster]

44. Don't forget Truman, while you're at it.

The comparisons to Truman and Teddy are irrelevant for a very simple reason: 24/7 TV coverage. This is not the same world it was then. If Dean doesn't understand that, ESPECIALLY after the negative press he'd already gotten for other misguided comments, he's in the wrong business.

Ah, yes, I watched the Dean tirade live, formed my own opinions completely independent of any media coverage, yet I'm a media tool.

Ah, yes, I saw Dean's cockroaches speech before I heard or saw one iota of negative media coverage on it. My opinion was that it was arrogant and stupid. Threatening your potential co-workers is never good strategy. Count on it. Yet, I'm a media tool.

No, I am more interested in winning. You, however, are interested only in Dean winning, though you now claim to have had some miraculous change of heart.

It's sad to say, but YES, there are standards of presidential behavior imposed by the American public. Otherwise, Dennis Kucinich would probably be doing much better in the primaries.

People buy into stereotypes and frankly, I find it difficult to see how you could believe otherwise. This is a TV world, Hep. And, if you haven't noticed, Dean's speech is being played to death and talked about everywhere. Sounds like I'm closer to the truth about the fact that standards exist than you are about them not.

Ah, the best for last: shallow. Too funny.

You know - calling me names and talking down to me does nothing to convince me of your arguments. One of these days, Dean supporters will understand that and knock it the hell off.

"When you engage in misinterpretations, you're fighting against us. "

No, I am fighting against you because your candidate can no longer win in November, and beating Bush is MORE important to me than it is to you. You absolutely refuse to see your candidate's faults, and frankly, I don't blame you. If I was supporting a candidate that has single-handedly threw away a 30-point lead in NH and inexplicably lost IA by 20 points, I'd be in some pretty serious denial myself.

And, honestly, had Clark performed this little tirade, I'd be embarrassed and upset because he did something so stupid, and I'd probably be hoping desperately that it would go away. Heck, I was hoping that Ted Kennedy would get off the stage before Kerry's "victory" speech because he was a little over-the-top. Dean made Kennedy look mild in comparison.

Oh, and by the way, "you're fighting against us" sounds a little too similar to the Bush Administration. I guess I'm either with you or against you. The latter, and proud of it.

[Hep]

45. That's a load.

The fact that we have TV doesn't mean that shallow criteria for "presidentiality" is valid. You watched the whole thing live, and you can't get one ten second audio clip out of your head. Why that ten seconds is more important to you than 16 minutes of his speech is well beyond my comprehension.

If you think Kucinich's low numbers are because he doesn't act presidential, you have a thing or four to learn about politics.

Yes, people buy into stereotypes, and that's something we have to FIX, not ACCEPT. If you're not into the fight, get off the battlefield.

You're still buying into the media's clowning when you say silly shit like, "The fact that it's being played to death and talked about everywhere.." Think wellstone memorial. Try to remember what happened two years ago. When we forget the past we repeat it, except this time you're playing the role of right winger. They talked about that all over the place too, and they were wrong.

And yes, you're interpretation of dean's cockroaches comment reflects the same depth of understanding that your comments about his Iowa sppech do.

I doubt I'll convince you of my arguments. But I know they're right. And that's supported by the fact that you focus on your hurt feelings rather than my point. Thick skin.

Noit only can my candidate win in november, he's the only one that represents real change. Everything else = death of democrats. Bank on it. You DO want to defeat Bush more than I do, and that's cool. I'm glad that I look at the bigger picture, because if we left it up to those who think it's all about beating Bush, we can say bye bye to our party. Looks like you've already done that. Say hello to a republican congress for the rest of your natural life, and say hello to a supreme court that leans to the right. Your president will be able to accomplish nothing, which will guarantee a republican president in 2008. Let me know when it sinks in.

Had Clark engaged in that little tirade, I'd wonder what he is smoking, because Clark is just not that genuine when he's not fucking up, "Mary, help." Dean made Kennedy look mild? Fine!

You ARE either with me (the D party is bigger than any candidate" or against me "It's ALL about Bush". If you're with me, you care about 2008, 2012, 2016 and every electino year in between. If you're against me, you're fine with the dissolution of our party in exchange for four years of worthless presidential control. Be proud of rooting for the end of our party. It's not like I was counting on you to fight the good fight.

[boxster]

48. Your premise for starting this thread in the first place is wrong, but

I'm supposed to just accept everything else you say? I think not, thank you very much.

Nice of you to jump on the condescension bandwagon for yet another post. Thanks for talking down to me again, Mr. Omniscient.

Dean's rant was more than ten seconds, but of course, that is the standard response to this issue - downplay it. Perhaps you should watch it again and time how long Dean rants. Count the time he is screaming out state names. Trust me, it's more than ten seconds.

The bottom line is that what I think of it is irrelevant. You should be more concerned about how other voters are going to view it. It may not affect Dean at all, though the quick drop in the polls in NH would seem to suggest otherwise.

Though, in all fairness, he was dropping in Iowa before the caucuses already, so this could just be a repeat performance.

Hurt feelings? Oh, please. What is this, the "wimpy babies" Dean talking point? I've read crap like that so many times in the past few days that it's like a running joke. People who don't agree with us are just "wimpy babies".

Do you realize who that sounds like? Republicans often call us soft on defense, soft on national security, soft on everything, too sensitive, etc. Perhaps you should choose tactics other than those perpetrated by those you claim to abhor.

I understand it, though, because you really don't have any alternatives. Your choices are to either acknowledge that your candidate has serious momentum issues or continue your absolute blind faith in your candidate. He has no flaws. He's never wrong. He can never admit mistakes because he never makes any.

In many ways, he is the perfect person to representative you, though I expect that you already know that, but for different reasons.

Your initial premise that everyone is against you and that we're all ABD even through the general election is wrong. See message #45.

Do not expect to make such an obviously false and intentionally inflammatory statement like that and not get called on the carpet for it. If all you then do is name call and talk down to people, do not expect people to take you seriously. Don't expect people you call names or condescend to to respect your opinions.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you lost me when you called me an "asshole".

Have a nice day. You might want to ignore the polls for the next few days to maintain your faith in the good doctor.

[Hep]

51. First of all it wasn't a rant.

The term obviously connotes anger, and there was NO anger involved if you saw a second of it. But I realize using inflammatory words is more fun, so we'll just go with it. It was a speech. It was a damn good speech. A rallying cry for a group of people that needed it so badly. And it worked, that's the part that gets to his critics. The people he was speaking to went nuts. And of course no one talks about Tom Harkin's RANT. No one talks about how he scared them. This is all so screwed up. Almost amazing if it weren't so damn predictable.

I don't care how voters took it. If they go by the media, they're a lost cause.

Why would I acknowledge momentum issues? That's not what this thread is about. You want me to talk off topic? Isn't this MY topic? What the hell?

You're wrong about my premise as I pointed out earlier. And its SILLY to get it so wrong. ALL /= MANY. Say it with me.

My premise can't be faulty if you can't even repeat it back to me accurately.

And I never called you an asshole. We've been all over that too.

[boxster]

49. Hurt feelings? I just realized how hilarious that is.

Hmm, you are saying that basically, I'm just whining because of my hurt feelings. Too funny.

However, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not), but until your recent alleged ephiphany that made you ABB (about an hour or so ago), you were refusing to support the other candidates because, and I quote...

"I will not unite with anyone who chose to insult me and trivialize what my campaign is all about. It sounds overly sensitive, but frankly, I have dignity."

In other words, you refused to be ABB because your feelings were hurt?

Is that an accurate statement?

You then went on to insult me in other threads and trivialize my arguments by calling me names and talking down to me, which, by the way, is exactly what you were complaining about in others.

Too funny. Thanks for the laugh. I really needed it.

[Hep]

52. The difference

is that I understood the things people were saying to me.

[Hep]

7. Voting in an empty shell is not helping the party

and it's not the fault of Dean or his supporters that too many Americans are oblivious to that point.

[HFishbine]

19. It's simple

There are some candidates who represent a capitulation to the Bush fear paridigm or worse are apologists for Bush policies. If it takes four more years of Bush for people to get it, so be it.

[polpilot]

39. Take a break. Go to the DLC website and read. They don't WANT Dean

or Dean's ideas. They don't want ME because I oppose them. It's not about democracy OR taking back the democratic party. It's about a new party. Dean was running a third party ticket on the demo's time. It didn't work. Time to go 3rd. Time to re-build. Time to REALLY show 'em change.

Dean '04...The Dean Party!!!

And no I'm not a 'real democrat' and no I'm not interested in the DLC's candidate. 'Real democrats' have been wretching for decades. whomever that is.

[Hep]

6. I might vote for the D candidate

but I will focus all of my attention on local politics. Frankly, I will do far more good spending my efforts locally than by settling for Kerry, Clark, Edwards, et al.

[OHdem10]

42. I too have been concerned about Dems being so harsh

and jumping up and down almost in glee that Dean's having trouble.

His supporters love him and I am sure they feel attacked when he is attacked. I believe our party is depending entirely too much on aBB
to bring the vote next fall. To be honest ABB does not even phaze me anymore. How they are handling thingsmeans a lot more to me.

[Hep]

43. You're so right.

n/t

[boxster]

2. Yeah, that explains why there were so many new voters in Iowa.

So, let me guess: Dean recruited them all, but then they just happened to vote for Kerry and Edwards.

I find it a little arrogant that Dean supporters seem to think that A) Dean is the only candidate who has ever run for office, and B) he's the only one who understands anything about the Democratic Party.

We've been here before. While he has certainly brought new ideas, he hasn't invented politics and every component thereof.

[Hep]

8. Read my post

New voters, yeah. Great. The question is, what happens to them after the election? Back to their normal lives, not a thought devoted to politics for another four years. THAT'S THE POINT. It will be the end of our party because our precincts will still be largely unorganized. The republicans OWN OUR ASSES when it comes to that and they throw their weight around ALL THE TIME. Democrats have to suck it up because they don't have enough power locally to fight.

Dean is inspiring people to join that struggle while the others just want a job.

[boxster]

28. I did read your post. Your post did exactly what hundreds of other Dean

supporter posts have done. Dean is the only politician who has ever lived, the only one who could ever get people excited about politics, the only one who could ever get people involved, the only one would can keep the party from dwindling away to nothing.

Pardon my language, but this is bullshit. It's been bullshit from day one, and it's utter garbage, not to mention a little arrogant and conceited on Dean's part.

Tell me how John Edwards came from nearly ZERO in Iowa to 32% of the vote without getting people excited about politics. Boy, that positive message of his must just turn people off since he got 14% more of the vote than Mr. Excitement.

Or John Kerry, who Dean supporters constantly call bland and unexciting. Yeah, so unexciting he stomped Dean in Iowa and is looking like a giant killer in NH, as well.

Have you ever considered that maybe people don't WANT someone who rants and raves?

Maybe anger isn't what people want. Maybe they want someone who can point the way to a better future and not just constantly rant about the one we have. Maybe they want someone who doesn't constantly belittle his opponents, Congress, and other Democrats.

What if Dean supporters have spent so much time assuming that the rest of the country thinks and acts exactly like they do that they completely missed out on what America really wants?

[Hep]

30. You're missing the point

Dean's the only one who has ever existed? Could you be more oblivious to what I'm telling you? He's not the only one who CAN inspire people, he's the only one who IS inspiring people.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again, caucusing is great, and it's important, but it's not enough. Voting is not enough. What percentage of the people who caucused in Iowa figure they're done until November? We need people who will fight every day and take the fight to their streets. And it's increasingly difficult.

Kerry beat Dean in Iowa. OK. Fine. But Kerry won't get black judges elected in MY town, and Edwards SURE AS HELL won't. He's MY senator and he's done SHIT for my party.

It's not about ranting and raving. The degree to which you are missing the point here is not only surprising, it's also disturbing. It's about what YOU are doing.

You constantly make this about anger. You continue to act as if anger is his message. Maybe in part, but certinaly it's not the prevailing message, and the only people who claim it are the media and the media's rubes.

What does America really want? America really wants to believe that putting a D in office will make things all better. America is wrong. And our party is going to DIE because of it. Either get on board by getting involved locally or start digging our party's grave. It is up to you.

[boxster]

32. On the contrary, I hit your point dead center.

It is your reasoning that I find flawed.

You assume that Dean is the only person in this race that can inspire people.

Tell that to anyone who joined the Draft Wesley Clark movement.

Tell that to the thousands of people who showed up in Iowa in near-zero temperatures to voice their support for Kerry and Edwards.

Think those people aren't involved? Aren't inspired? Think those people are just going to show up for the caucuses and primaries and disappear into the ether?

Dean does not have the market cornered on getting people involved or getting them inspired. Believing this is misguided, presumptuous, and frankly, a little insulting to those of us who see other candidates inspiring new voters every day.

I made this about anger because many, many, MANY Dean supporters act as though that is all this election is about. For those people, anger IS Dean's defining message.

I'm so sick and tired of "if you're not angry, you're not paying attention" as the basis for every pro-Dean argument. Don't blame me that your fellow Dean supporters often make this about NOTHING but anger and call all of the other candidates bland and unexciting (a term I saw no less than 20 times yesterday).

You're basically doing the same thing. I'm just too ignorant to see that the party is dead unless we elect Howard Dean. Howard Dean and his supporters overestimate his importance in the scheme of things. He is neither the end-all of the party, nor is he the savior.

By the way, I'm allowed to rant. I'm not a presidential candidate ranting on national television minutes after an unexpected loss.

[Hep]

34. Man, you're hitting a wall trying to understand me

I'm not saying he's the only one inspiring people. All candidates inspire people. Dean's the only one inspiring them to take over their party. I see no one else talking about this.

If you don't understand that, then we can't move on from here. It's like you haven't read a single thing that I've written. You're not addressing ANY of my underlying points. All you can do is harp on Dean and Iowa, as if that's the root of what I'm talking about.

No one in the dean campaign who knows their ass from a hole in the ground acts like anger its the underlying message. Bottom line. Not true. That you, someone OUTSIDE the campaign, tries to convince anyone that you knowmroe than people INSIDE the campaign is laughable.

You're still focusing on this anger thing, and I'm way past it. Until you GET IT, we'll never get past this obstacle.

[boxster]

46. Ah, yes, let's move on to condescension.

Don't see it? Well, let me help you out.

I just can't possibly understand Dean's message, because I'm not on the inside. I'm apparently too stupid to make observations of his and his supporters activities and come to my own conclusions.

I just can't possibly read thousands of posts on DU and then form an opinion that MANY Dean supporters focus on NOTHING but the anger. Although I've seen literally hundreds of examples of what I am asserting, I just can't possibly know what I'm talking about.

One poster just copies and pastes the same stupid "if you're not angry, you're not paying attention" message over and over and over.

Another Dean supporter posts "I guess you just like bland and unexciting" in every Kerry thread he/she can find.

Oh, but I'm too shallow and stupid to form my own opinions based on what these and hundreds of posts just like them. No substance.

If I'm not EXACTLY like you, and if I don't agree with you that Dean is our savior, I just don't get it. Kiss the party goodbye, because we can't possibly go on without Howard Dean. It's amazing we've lived this long without him.

Well, you know what? Dean doesn't get it. He got killed by Kerry in Iowa, he's going to lose NH big to Kerry, and his campaign is in serious trouble. No one has bothered to provide an explanation.

The bottom line is that Dean is personally responsible for getting himself into a lot of these situations.

Yet, all he (and his supporters) can do is blame the media and blame the DLC and blame his opponents.

Yet, everyone in this race is in the same situation. All of the candidates get bashed by the media. All of the candidates face accusations from other candidates. All of the candidates have to deal with the same bullshit. His whining about the fact he gets bashed all the time and bashed unfairly does not make it true.

The early press coverage of Clark was merciless. Yet, he somehow managed to hang around and not whine about it constantly.

Kerry managed to put up with all of it and get 38% in Iowa. Somehow, Kerry turned around a race where Dean was up by more than 30% in NH.

Dean's campaign has no momentum, and no answers.

I get it. Kerry gets it. Edwards apparently got it. Clark seems to get it.

Dean doesn't. Do you?

I do understand your point, but it's fatally flawed. You think Dean is the only person who can get people interested in becoming actively involved in the Democratic Party and get them interested in taking over the party. Well, I disagree and your assumption that he is the only one would possibly could do this is as shallow as you claim me to be.

But, consider this: if he can't even get people out to the caususes, how am I supposed to agree that he's the only Democrat alive who can get people interested in being active Democrats? So what - he gets them excited, and then they leave and vote for someone else?

If Dean can't even connect with the voters and get them to the polls and caucuses, how can he get them to be excited Democrats? He spent millions of dollars and months of campaigning in Iowa. All we heard about was how he was going to stomp all of the other candidates because he had more money and more people and more organization and a better message. What happened?

How can I accept that he's doing all of these things and he's the savior of the party when all of the evidence points to the exact opposite conclusion?

[Hep]

47. Let's try moving on to understanding my point.

Your observations are based on what, exactly? This a scientific study?

It's not Dean supporters focusing on anger. You didn't read that thread I asked you to, did you? Here, allow me to cut and paste:

You'll
never lack for people who will read your
forthrightness for being mean or hateful or angry or
crazy or whatever. And you cannot let such people keep
you from being forthright. We can't win this election
in the media. We can only win by representing a change
in this party and in this country to the people with
whom we come in contact, and multiply that contact.


HTH, although I think you would rather focus on hundreds of posts froma half a dozen people rather than pay attention to the facts. I can't make you employ integrity.

Dean's responsible for little, and you'd understand if you read the post I asked you to read. Fact is, Dean IS being bashed all the time and unfairly. It IS true. And it's true of most of the others, as well. But while you say, "accept it", I say, "FIGHT IT", and then you say I'm just being angry. Whatev.

You really don't get it, but it isn't because you don't agree with me. Truth is, it works the other way around. You disagree with me because you don't get it.

The notion that Kerry and Clark roll with themedia's punches is not a quality I admire. It annoys me that they lack the spine to say anything about it. They'll run out of cheeks sooner or later, and by then it will be too late.

It's not that Dean is the only person who CAN inspire people to get involved, it's that he is the only one INSPIRING people to get involved. Lemme know when you see the difference.

That you look at the results of one caucus and start clamoring about how Dean CAn't do this and Can't do that makes me wonder if you've ever seen an election cycle before.

[boxster]

50. Lemme know when you see the difference.

What I see is inaccuracy, hypocrisy, condescension, and semantics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=109057#109309

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=109057#109304

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=109057#109298

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=109079#109315

Yes, I did read this: "We can only win by representing a change
in this party and in this country to the people with
whom we come in contact, and multiply that contact."

That is exactly why I am supporting Wesley Clark. He represents a change. Dean represents a losing cause.

By the way, about your tagline: "Hatred of enemies is easier and more intense than love of friends. But from men who are more anxious to injure opponents than to benefit the world at large no great good is to be expected."

Look in the mirror.

[Hep]

53. Clark doesn't represent change.

And your interpretation of dean is reminiscent of your ability to parse my posts.

[KC21304]

13. You have said it exactly right, Boxster.

Exit polls showed the main factor was beating Bush. If this is what will be driving most Democrats, they will come out for the Dem, even if it isn't Dean, as hard as that may be for some to believe.

[Hep]

17. WRONG, he got it WRONG, and so do you.

A victory in 2004 will be worth SHIT if people don't get more involved in the party. If all they do is vote, we're screwed.

R's have all but guaranteed a republican house for the next decade. How? They manhandled state legislatures. Even now they're toying with the D party in NC. They've essentially CANCELLED OUR PRIMARY for us. And why? Because while D's go to the polls, they don't go to party meetings.

Dean is inspiring people not just to vote, but to become active democrats. No one else is. The plus side is that Dean's legacy will live on. The down side is, unless more people become active in our party, winning the presidency won't matter. The RW will control congress and the judicial branch and whatever president sits up there will be a walking mandate, BEGGING for cooperation.

[demnan]

3. I know

I feel a sinking feeling of pessimism now. Not that I don't like Kerry. On the contrary I respect him highly and I'm sure he'd make a great President, I just think he doesn't reach the average voter (he doesn't reach me) and I don't feel as enthusiastic about the people actually taking back our party as I did when it really looked like Dean was catching fire.

[surfermaw]

9. Stop The Crap

I have never felt at ease with Dean,but pushed him when I though he had caught fire, and would have supported him even if my choice went down, you see I am an old time democrat. A Roosevelt & Truman Democrats, it is about time the other in the party wake up and support whom ever the candidate, so much I see for supporting the cream that finally rose to the top... Get with it Democrats, if your candidate looses, then get out and work just as hard for the cream that came to the top of the ticket, heck my candidate is the person who got the least attention from the media, while every time we turned on the set some were given all the media attention...So stop crying and get out and work harder to win in the fall...Republican stick together that is why they are defeating us ..so cut the crap and get to work. Who know who the candidate is going , strange things can happen in a minute.

[Hep]

11. The others in the party won't wake up. They don't want to

because it's too much WORK to actually cause a revolution.

Where I live, we have 80 year old precinct chairs, and 80 year olds active in the party. They're clinging to their posts with all they have because their leaving means the END of our party where I live. There are few if any young people filling in the empty spots. That is, until Dean came around. Now, we're starting to take control again. We're building from the bottom up. We're getting our voice back. And it's thanks to Dean, and none of the others.

[CWebster]

12. The cream rose to the top

More like the cream was skimmed off and all we are left with is some faintly whitish left-over water.

[Hep]

10. Be not disheartened!

Dean has inspired well meaning democrats to take my county from being 32% organized to 80% organized this spring. That's a huge boon to our party ona local and state level.

Why do democrats like the others not understand that more and more black voters are switching to independent? Because they don't care as long as black voters vote D. Well, they won't for long.

How many black judges in MY county has Edwards endorsed? None that I know of. He expects their vote, and frankly, they don't give two shits about him except that he's from our state.

[lovedems]

14. I see Dean supporters alienating themselves.

And blaming the media, blaming other dems on DU for attacking Dean. It is always someone else's fault. Dean has done wonderful things for this party. He has energized the debate and I hold him in great esteem and think he is a wonderful person and would be a great President.

That being said, I can't and many people in the country can't, afford 4 more years of the idiot and theives that currently occupy the White House. This administration has taken this country so far to the right, we have to move back to the center before we can move to the left. I will gladly be ABB and throw my support to any of the candidates who win the nominee. Getting the chimp out of the WH is far more important to me than my support of one candidate. If you want to say that I refuse to wake up, that is fine. As I see it, I am awake, wide awake to the policies of this administration and if we think the last 3 years were bad, we haven't seen anything yet. We will be in a constant state of war, the rich will get richer, the middle class will disappear, social security and medicare will be gone, we will no longer have the support of other nations around the world, I don't think I need go on any longer.

If those things don't matter, don't be ABB. Vote for whomever you want or don't vote at all. But when the draft comes back, don't cry.

[CWebster]

16. Wait til your boy gets in the headlight

mark my words.:nopity:

[lovedems]

18. Thanks, but I don't have a candidate yet.

I live in Illinois so we don't get our primary until late March. I am making this observation as a person who will support whoever wins the nomination. Sometimes it is better to ask questions rather than make assumptions.

[Hep]

20. Of course we're blaiming the media

If you can't see how the media played a role, then we're all doomed to a repeat of 2000.

Batten down the hatches. D's are still not ready to fight.

[lovedems]

22. D's njot ready to fight. Can you explain what you mean by that?

I am ready to fight. My fight is not for a specific candidate, my fight is to get the chimp out of the WH. To me, that is the first fight in a long list of things that need to be fought. If you want to see diversity again, a fight worth fighting, the first thing that has to happen is get the chimp out. If you want to see a fair tax system, a fight worth fighting, the first thing you have to do is get the chimp out. If you want to see jobs again, a fight worth fighting, the first thing you have to do is get the chimp out. All of the changes we are longing for are not going happen if the chimp is handed the WH again and unless you are willing to vote for whoever gets the nomination, that is likely to happen.

[Hep]

24. The fight to get * out of office is important, but it's not THE fight

and that's what no one but Dean understands.

As long as republicans rule local politics, and they do, it won't matter who we install as president. The worst that will happen to the right wing is that they'll be slowed down for a little while.

Meanwhile, the D party dissolves right in front of our eyes.

If you are ready to fight, become active in your precinct. Become active in your county. Get your friends and family involved. Our party is falling apart at the seams. We vote, SOMETIMES, but our numbers are decimated.

Republicans have secures the US House for the next decade because when the fight came to us, we weren't prepared for combat. Now in TX, in CO, in NC, and in many other states, district lines have been drawn to heavily favor the right wing. In my state, two of the best progressive politicians were forced to run against each other instead of having their own districts, and now for the first time in a VERY long time, the NC state legislature is split, leaning right.

Even if we get a D president, we lose the war as long as we're not taking charge of our communities.

[lovedems]

25. I don't understand how you can say the D party is dissolving?

There was record turn out in Iowa. The dems are uniting for the first time in a long time. They didn't unite with all the BS surrounding Clinton, they didn't unite to help Gore in 2000. We are uniting now because the fight is to get * out of office. That is what people want. That is the lesson I learned from Iowa anyway.

The only reason the thugs control anything is because they steal it. The dems can't fight it without unity and that is what I see happening. I think you are very passionate about your beliefs and I respect you for that. I also think you aren't giving the democratic party enough credit for coming together. It is happening and I agree that Dean is a large part of that. You have to look at what is happening in the states, dems coming out in large numbers, large numbers of first time dem voters, people switching sides to become a dem. We need to embrace this unity rather than alienate it because of one candidate.

[Hep]

29. Stop equating people voting with people being politically active

It's not the case. You have to stop puching the philosophy that voting in a caucus or in an election is enough.

Our party is dissolving and all you need to do in order to see it is go to a party meeting. Look, I don't know where you live, but lemme test you. You can cheat, but you'll know if you are. Where and when is your next D party meeting? What is the name of your county D party chair? What precinct are you in and what is the name of your precinct chair? How many of the precincts in your county are not organized?

If you need help answering these questions, then you'll be more aware of what I'm talking about.

I live in NC, a traditionally red state. My county, however, is one of the more liberal counties in the south, in which the black voting base is huge. At my last D party meeting, 23 people showed up, at least ten of which were there for the first time, myself included. All ten of those, Dean supporters. Now, based on how many precincts we have, roughly 113 SHOULD have showed up, being precinct officers. Generall, around 8 show up.

My precinct chair is Harris Johnson Sr. He has got to be 80 if he's a day. And he's typical of our county party. My party is being held together by 80 year old strings. And they can't hold forever.

What Dean is telling me to do is GET INVOLVED. Take the reigns so that these weary warriors don't have to do it themselves anymore. Only a third of our precincts are organized. With Dean's inspiration, we're fighting to make that 80%. An organized precinct has TEN TIMES the voter turnout that an unorganized precinct does. Think about that.

People aren't switching sides to be Dem across the board. Many, many people are switching to Independent. We need to fight that.

I'm not trying to alienate anyone. I'm trying to get people to understand what this is about. We've lost if we focus only on Bush. Because his party has agents at every level, and they're kicking our asses.

Sorry this is so long and rambling.

[lovedems]

31. Listen, you are correct, people do need to get involved on the level

you are speaking of. BTW, I failed the test. However, voting is the first step of involvement. I think Dean is absolutely correct, I like him, and think he has been a great "new leader" for the democrats and I really like Dean.

When Dean is asking everyone to get involved, is asking you to not vote if he doesn't get the nomination? Is he asking you to not help the person who does win the nomination if it isn't him? Is he asking people to help and if he doesn't win, just give up? That is ridiculous and it was meant to sound ridiculous. That is alot of what I am hearing from some (not all) Dean supporters. That to me, goes against everything Dean stands for. He doesn't want to take the party back only under the condition that he gets to be the leader of the party.

When it comes to taking back the party, Dean gets it head and shoulders above the rest and we do have two battles ahead of us. But people can't just say, if Dean doesn't get the nomination, I might vote for the candidate, I might vote 3rd party, I might not vote. That is not Howard Dean and that is what I think some people fail to get.

Thank you for the interesting and insightful political conversation. I really admire your passion and your desire to change the status quo and I hope you haven't taken anything out of context to be offended. That was not, nor ever will be my intention.
:)

[Hep]

35. OK, I have to concede.

You're right. Not voting D in the presidential election will do NO good for the party. There is no argument for not voting for whoever gets the nomination. And I will abandon that altogether. I am now officially ABB.

And voting is the first step, but it is no longer enough. We have to impore people to not stop there. But I'm pretty sure I got that point across, so I won't harp on it.

Thanks for sticking with the converation!

:)

[lovedems]

37. Thank you! You convinced me of the desire to get involved!

:yourock:

We need to start from the top and bottom!

[Nashyra]

36. If Dean drops out of the Presidential race

he should back the Democratic party and not one candidate just like the big dog and continue to get his supporters to help fund raise for the party or for whoever he ultimately backs. The Democrats need Dean in the new administration if, IF he does not become the nominee. He would be an excellent cabinet member, someone who would not be afraid to take on Delay or Frist head to head in the media.

[Hep]

41. I'll vote for whoever wins

But I'm not raisin a penny for anyone but Dean and my local party. None of the others deserve my hard earned money.

Dean will support whoever wins. But it won't hold off the end of our party.